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QOL: Twice-Born Star slight rework

  • RaptorRodeoGod
    RaptorRodeoGod
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    Another suggestion they could go with:

    2p: Increase the effect of your active mundus stone by X%
    3p: Increase the effect of your active mundus stone by X%
    4p: Increase the effect of your active mundus stone by X%
    5p: You can have two Mundus Stone boons at the same time.

    This would make the set more versatile, because the 2-4 piece would then be more tailored to a players role compared to flat stats on the 2-4 piece.
    Give all classes access to a Scribing skill that works like Arcanist beam.
    ---
    Overland difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 10 years. 6 paid expansions. 25 DLCs. 41 game changing updates including One Tamriel, an overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver & Gold as a "you think you do but you don't" - tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game. I'm bored of dungeons, I'm bored of trials; make a personal difficulty slider for overland. Make a self debuff mythic. Literally anything at this point.
  • WrathOfInnos
    WrathOfInnos
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    I think doubling the effect is a little strong but not crazy.

    Let's say I pick warrior. Iirc it's 389 damage with divines. So that would be 778 damage.

    I essentially just got the same damage buff that I can get from New Moon (5 piece is 390 I think).

    If I pick lover, that's a little under 5k with divines. So now I'm getting over 9k pen. That's stronger than Spriggans or Spinner's + Lover but not crazy.

    So in a way it would be very similar to heartland conquerer.

    That comparison only considers the 5pc bonus. The 5pc on TBS is fine, but the 2-4pc are weak.
    - (2) 1206 Health
    - (3) 1096 Stamina
    - (4) 1096 Magicka

    Yes, the 389 Weapon Damage from Warrior with Divines is close to the 401 Weapon Damage from New Moon Acolyte’s 5pc, but NMA also has:

    - (2) 3% crit chance
    - (3) 129 weapon/spell dmg
    - (4) 1487 penetration

    And the massive difference between these easily outweighs the 5% cost increase. I don’t really agree with the comparison to NMA anyway, because it is largely considered to be a useless set after it was reduced from 481 to 401 damage on the 5pc.

    Looking at Lover mundus is more interesting. Both TBS and Spriggan give 1096 Stamina and at least 3460 Physical Penetration, so the remaining comparison would be:

    - 1206 Health + 1096 Magicka
    - (4489 - 3460) = 1029 Penetration (from 2nd Lover, 7 divines)

    vs

    - 1096 Max Stamina
    - 129 Weapon Damage

    Every stamina DPS build would go for the 2nd option, and again we’re comparing to a sub-par set (Spriggan).

    If we want to compare TBS with Lover to a good set, let’s look at Alkosh (IMO at least, most of the community still thinks it is too weak as a damage set). It gives 6000 Penetration to the whole group, not just the user, which is 1.5k more than 7 Divines Lover. It also has Minor Slayer, a decent damage proc, 3% Crit Chance, and 129 Weapon Damage. These things add up, and results in an Alkosh wearer doing about 14% more DPS than a TBS wearer, while also helping the group. That’s massive.

    The comparison I always fall back to is TBS with Thief (9.9% crit) vs Mother’s Sorrow. Both give similar stats (crit and 1096 Max Mag), but Sorrow ends up with 3.1% more crit chance vs TBS’s 1206 Health + 1096 Stamina. The hybrid stats split across 3 lines are just not good enough. Something needs to be combined so another stat can be added.
  • DrSlaughtr
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    I think doubling the effect is a little strong but not crazy.

    Let's say I pick warrior. Iirc it's 389 damage with divines. So that would be 778 damage.

    I essentially just got the same damage buff that I can get from New Moon (5 piece is 390 I think).

    If I pick lover, that's a little under 5k with divines. So now I'm getting over 9k pen. That's stronger than Spriggans or Spinner's + Lover but not crazy.

    So in a way it would be very similar to heartland conquerer.

    That comparison only considers the 5pc bonus. The 5pc on TBS is fine, but the 2-4pc are weak.
    - (2) 1206 Health
    - (3) 1096 Stamina
    - (4) 1096 Magicka

    Yes, the 389 Weapon Damage from Warrior with Divines is close to the 401 Weapon Damage from New Moon Acolyte’s 5pc, but NMA also has:

    - (2) 3% crit chance
    - (3) 129 weapon/spell dmg
    - (4) 1487 penetration

    They are flat stat bonuses because it's not meant to be a DPS centric set. If the 5 piece doubled mundus it would be very interesting for support.
    Another suggestion they could go with:

    2p: Increase the effect of your active mundus stone by X%
    3p: Increase the effect of your active mundus stone by X%
    4p: Increase the effect of your active mundus stone by X%
    5p: You can have two Mundus Stone boons at the same time.

    This would make the set more versatile, because the 2-4 piece would then be more tailored to a players role compared to flat stats on the 2-4 piece.

    The issue here is they are trying to get away from so many calculations on one set. It's not good for server performance.
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  • WrathOfInnos
    WrathOfInnos
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    Back when it was viable, TBS was a DPS set. It would not be good as a support set because it offers no support.

    To entertain the thought, it is true that tanks use all 3 resources more than healers or DPS, and could get some benefit from the 2-4pc bonuses. However, running divines on a tank is going to be a hard sell compared to sturdy reducing block cost by 32%. You could use something like the Lady mundus for 2744 Armor, but the Fortified Brass 5pc gives 3460. FB arguably has better 2-4 piece bonuses as well, with 2 lines of 1487 Armor instead of 1096 Mag + 1096 Stam. Fortified is also a poor support set, objectively weak and does nothing to help the group, so TBS falling behind it is a strong indicator of a balance issue.
  • ifDoubtNerfIt
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    TBS doesn't need a rework. As said in the OP, it only requires a slight QOL change that you can slot it on the frontbar.
    The first three bonuses changing to Max Magicka and Max Stamina would only give marginal benefits (~3% dps increase).
    In the link below you can see that it is still a very good set, being on par with Diamond's Victory and Heartland Conqueror.

    https://imgur.com/a/bzathBx
    (For some reason Imgur decided to rearrange the images :( )

    Edit: To clarify, those parses were done on the PTS.
    Edited by ifDoubtNerfIt on August 8, 2021 10:48PM
  • WrathOfInnos
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    TBS doesn't need a rework. As said in the OP, it only requires a slight QOL change that you can slot it on the frontbar.
    The first three bonuses changing to Max Magicka and Max Stamina would only give marginal benefits (~3% dps increase).
    In the link below you can see that it is still a very good set, being on par with Diamond's Victory and Heartland Conqueror.

    https://imgur.com/a/bzathBx
    (For some reason Imgur decided to rearrange the images :( )

    Edit: To clarify, those parses were done on the PTS.

    I disagree. 3% DPS difference is massive when we’re comparing sets that contribute at most 10% DPS total. I can confirm that TBS with Shadow is 2.5-3% DPS loss compared to Julianos, or 3.5-4% DPS loss compared to Mother’s Sorrow. You’d be better off running Elemental Catalyst on a solo build (only 15% crit damage instead of 18%, but gives Spell Crit + Max Mag where TBS has Max Health + Max Stamina).

    Comparisons using Sorc parses and low sample sizes are not going to give accurate results. Sorc has the most variance of all classes because they have RNG in crit and RNG in frag procs. Your 100k TBS for example had 44 frag procs, while the 100k DV had only 37. With equal luck you’ll see DV pull ahead by a few thousand.

    It also didn’t take into account set combinations. Nobody uses DV with Siroria, that just gives too much Spell Damage and not enough crit. DV shines as a front bar set, where you correctly pointed out that TBS cannot be used, but Siroria is already a front bar set. Try comparing Bahsei + DV with Bahsei + TBS and the difference will be obvious.
  • ifDoubtNerfIt
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    I disagree. 3% DPS difference is massive when we’re comparing sets that contribute at most 10% DPS total.
    3% is 3k dps in this situation, which in trials would translate to even less.
    I can confirm that TBS with Shadow is 2.5-3% DPS loss compared to Julianos, or 3.5-4% DPS loss compared to Mother’s Sorrow. You’d be better off running Elemental Catalyst on a solo build (only 15% crit damage instead of 18%, but gives Spell Crit + Max Mag where TBS has Max Health + Max Stamina).
    You still have to factor in inconvenience. TBS/Heartland/Diamond's are crafted sets, while Catalyst is a BoP set that needs to be farmed and depending on peoples luck, it can take some time to farm it. Not to mention only one person should wear catalyst, which makes it "not possible" to wear for other people in a trial. And on top of that, Catalyst is only really good with single target fights, or fights like CR+x where the whole group switches targets at the same time, as it's relatively hard to keep an 80%+ uptime of all three debuffs on 2-3 enemies at the same time. You're also not considering that using Mother's Sorrow on a frontbar gives a big dps loss (like Medusa) when you're bar swapping to backbar because you're loosing a ton of crit. All in all, on paper, it might be a dps loss running TBS, but in real-world situations (and parses in some cases) it is not the case as you're not parsing with your frontbar alone.
    Comparisons using Sorc parses and low sample sizes are not going to give accurate results. Sorc has the most variance of all classes because they have RNG in crit and RNG in frag procs. Your 100k TBS for example had 44 frag procs, while the 100k DV had only 37. With equal luck you’ll see DV pull ahead by a few thousand.
    I welcome you to go and do 100 parses for every situation (set) to have a large enough sample size. Regarding sorcerer class, Crystal Fragment proc rng damage is not that off, under 10 casts is a negligible difference in dps. It is the hardest hitting ability in the game, but you still have to take into account that it still uses a GCD, relies heavily on crit and relies on actually getting a proc. Your argument that sorc relies on RNG crit is not true at all, well to an extent. It relies on rng crit as every other class does.
    On top of that, I've done about 30 parses altogether on all three sets tonight, the pictures I provided are the 95 percentile parses.
    It also didn’t take into account set combinations. Nobody uses DV with Siroria, that just gives too much Spell Damage and not enough crit. DV shines as a front bar set, where you correctly pointed out that TBS cannot be used, but Siroria is already a front bar set. Try comparing Bahsei + DV with Bahsei + TBS and the difference will be obvious.
    Nobody uses those combinations, that's true, but not because "...not enough crit", which Bahsei + DV would still suffer from, but because outside of a couple of trial fights, there isn't really a place for Siroria. Additionally, Siroria was used as a base set in here as it can be used with all three sets, while Bahsei cannot be used with TBS, as you would lose Bahsei while bar swapping. Also testing with Bahsei is harder as it requires much better sustain management, especially on the most resource-hungry class out there :smiley:

    Also, you shouldn't rely that much on crit. Ask yourself why the best parses are done with Bahsei and Siroria and not something else. Crit was incrementally tuned down to the point that raw damage starts to take president. Short flights, like trash fights and normal difficulty content still can be run with crit stacking, but outside of that, in long fights with bosses that have 20M+ HP crit starts to lose its shine. You still want to have crit, but not stacking crit as it loses its impact the more you stack it.
  • WrathOfInnos
    WrathOfInnos
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    I disagree. 3% DPS difference is massive when we’re comparing sets that contribute at most 10% DPS total.
    3% is 3k dps in this situation, which in trials would translate to even less.
    I can confirm that TBS with Shadow is 2.5-3% DPS loss compared to Julianos, or 3.5-4% DPS loss compared to Mother’s Sorrow. You’d be better off running Elemental Catalyst on a solo build (only 15% crit damage instead of 18%, but gives Spell Crit + Max Mag where TBS has Max Health + Max Stamina).
    You still have to factor in inconvenience. TBS/Heartland/Diamond's are crafted sets, while Catalyst is a BoP set that needs to be farmed and depending on peoples luck, it can take some time to farm it. Not to mention only one person should wear catalyst, which makes it "not possible" to wear for other people in a trial. And on top of that, Catalyst is only really good with single target fights, or fights like CR+x where the whole group switches targets at the same time, as it's relatively hard to keep an 80%+ uptime of all three debuffs on 2-3 enemies at the same time. You're also not considering that using Mother's Sorrow on a frontbar gives a big dps loss (like Medusa) when you're bar swapping to backbar because you're loosing a ton of crit. All in all, on paper, it might be a dps loss running TBS, but in real-world situations (and parses in some cases) it is not the case as you're not parsing with your frontbar alone.
    Comparisons using Sorc parses and low sample sizes are not going to give accurate results. Sorc has the most variance of all classes because they have RNG in crit and RNG in frag procs. Your 100k TBS for example had 44 frag procs, while the 100k DV had only 37. With equal luck you’ll see DV pull ahead by a few thousand.
    I welcome you to go and do 100 parses for every situation (set) to have a large enough sample size. Regarding sorcerer class, Crystal Fragment proc rng damage is not that off, under 10 casts is a negligible difference in dps. It is the hardest hitting ability in the game, but you still have to take into account that it still uses a GCD, relies heavily on crit and relies on actually getting a proc. Your argument that sorc relies on RNG crit is not true at all, well to an extent. It relies on rng crit as every other class does.
    On top of that, I've done about 30 parses altogether on all three sets tonight, the pictures I provided are the 95 percentile parses.
    It also didn’t take into account set combinations. Nobody uses DV with Siroria, that just gives too much Spell Damage and not enough crit. DV shines as a front bar set, where you correctly pointed out that TBS cannot be used, but Siroria is already a front bar set. Try comparing Bahsei + DV with Bahsei + TBS and the difference will be obvious.
    Nobody uses those combinations, that's true, but not because "...not enough crit", which Bahsei + DV would still suffer from, but because outside of a couple of trial fights, there isn't really a place for Siroria. Additionally, Siroria was used as a base set in here as it can be used with all three sets, while Bahsei cannot be used with TBS, as you would lose Bahsei while bar swapping. Also testing with Bahsei is harder as it requires much better sustain management, especially on the most resource-hungry class out there :smiley:

    Also, you shouldn't rely that much on crit. Ask yourself why the best parses are done with Bahsei and Siroria and not something else. Crit was incrementally tuned down to the point that raw damage starts to take president. Short flights, like trash fights and normal difficulty content still can be run with crit stacking, but outside of that, in long fights with bosses that have 20M+ HP crit starts to lose its shine. You still want to have crit, but not stacking crit as it loses its impact the more you stack it.

    I don't really want to take the time to debate every point here. Are you seriously arguing that TBS is a good damage set? It's objectively worse than Julianos in all cases, which is easier to craft. That alone makes it 100% useless for DPS. And every DPS meta set is objectively better than Julianos, so even using that comparison is generous.
  • Sun7dance
    Sun7dance
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    TBS was a really nice PvP option when you could still run everything in divines and chosing the steed as one of your mundus stones.
    But since Cp 2.0 and no later than healthreg. was halved TBS has disappeared into oblivion!
    PS5|EU
  • ifDoubtNerfIt
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    Are you seriously arguing that TBS is a good damage set?

    A 100k parse is proving it is a good damage set still :shrug:
  • WrathOfInnos
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    Are you seriously arguing that TBS is a good damage set?

    A 100k parse is proving it is a good damage set still :shrug:

    No, that’s not how it works. You could take off that TBS and replace it with Combat Physician and you’d still parse 99k. Or take it a step further and show a Fortified Brass parse for 94k. Still enough damage to clear any content. That doesn’t mean any of these sets are good for DPS.

    You are parsing well despite your gear choices, not because of them. Use better sets and you’ll hit 104k easily.
  • ResidentContrarian
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    No.

    Because of the way how ZOS' state machine, or whatever you want to call how they manage player states in the game works, the set would eventually become bugged and grant the bonus without ever having to have 5 pieces of it.

    It was already exploited like this in the past, no to any changes that open the door for it again.

    Hard no for me on TBS working the way OP wants.

    EDit:
    So in a way it would be very similar to heartland conquerer.

    And it would also stack with it and become a balance problem down the line.
    Edited by ResidentContrarian on August 10, 2021 6:57AM
  • DrSlaughtr
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    No.

    Because of the way how ZOS' state machine, or whatever you want to call how they manage player states in the game works, the set would eventually become bugged and grant the bonus without ever having to have 5 pieces of it.

    It was already exploited like this in the past, no to any changes that open the door for it again.

    Hard no for me on TBS working the way OP wants.

    EDit:
    So in a way it would be very similar to heartland conquerer.

    And it would also stack with it and become a balance problem down the line.

    So you think running twice born and heartland would be an issue? The only damage you're getting from your set is 129 on gold heartland.

    You're also talking about a setup that would require at least one crafted jewelry (that's assuming no monster helm). That in and of itself would stop most players from running both.

    Let's say you run warrior. Your TBS is now new moon.

    Let's say you run lover. Your TBS is Spriggans/spinners.

    Let's say you run mage. Your TBS is now Crafty.

    So you run heartland with NMA or Spriggans or crafty. What's the difference?
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  • ajkb78
    ajkb78
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    Not all non-stat bonuses are 5th piece bonuses. Look at Darloc Brae for example. So my suggestion would be to move the current 5 piece bonus to the 3 piece bonus, make the 2 piece bonus give both magicka and stamina, move the health bonus to the 4 piece and turn the 5 piece bonus into a standard crit chance bonus (ie. 657 crit chance at legendary cp160).
    That would remove all problems with loss of mundus on bar swapping and add a little bit more bite to a set which underperforms compared with other modern sets.

    So you would have:
    Twice Born Star
    2 pieces: adds 1096 max magicka and 1096 max stamina
    3 pieces: you can have 2 mundus effects active
    4 pieces: adds 1280 max health
    5 pieces: adds 657 crit chance
  • ResidentContrarian
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    No.

    Because of the way how ZOS' state machine, or whatever you want to call how they manage player states in the game works, the set would eventually become bugged and grant the bonus without ever having to have 5 pieces of it.

    It was already exploited like this in the past, no to any changes that open the door for it again.

    Hard no for me on TBS working the way OP wants.

    EDit:
    So in a way it would be very similar to heartland conquerer.

    And it would also stack with it and become a balance problem down the line.

    So you think running twice born and heartland would be an issue? The only damage you're getting from your set is 129 on gold heartland.

    You're also talking about a setup that would require at least one crafted jewelry (that's assuming no monster helm). That in and of itself would stop most players from running both.

    Let's say you run warrior. Your TBS is now new moon.

    Let's say you run lover. Your TBS is Spriggans/spinners.

    Let's say you run mage. Your TBS is now Crafty.

    So you run heartland with NMA or Spriggans or crafty. What's the difference?

    No, it's not. If it were, why exactly are you advocating for the change...?

    We both know the answer.
  • Stx
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    I don't mind using TBS on the body to avoid the loss of the second mundus... but I will say that as long as the 2 through 4 bonuses are hp, sta, and mag, the set will always be lackluster. You just don't get enough from it overall.

    Honestly, most sets in the game that have 2 through 4 set bonuses of health, stamina, magicka are bad. The 5th bonus has to be damn good for that set to be useful.
  • ifDoubtNerfIt
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    Stx wrote: »
    I don't mind using TBS on the body to avoid the loss of the second mundus...

    You can't run Bahsei and TBS together for example.
    The damage loss would be too high to consider it viable. The other way around would work really good but because of the mundus loss it's not viable. That's the main reason this thread is even started.

    But if you're focusing on endgame, already you're locked into Bahsei/Siroria with Diamond's Victory/Support set.
  • ManDraKE
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    The problem with this set is not that is designed to be double bared, that aspect is fine and there are several sets like this. The problem is that the set is suboptimal stats-wise, specially now that everything has been standarized using a spreadsheet.

    The need to add an aditional bonus to the 5-pieces bonus, some extra universal stats like resistences or mixed recovery (stam & mag). Adding modifiers to the mundus will just make the set overperform.
  • DrSlaughtr
    DrSlaughtr
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    No.

    Because of the way how ZOS' state machine, or whatever you want to call how they manage player states in the game works, the set would eventually become bugged and grant the bonus without ever having to have 5 pieces of it.

    It was already exploited like this in the past, no to any changes that open the door for it again.

    Hard no for me on TBS working the way OP wants.

    EDit:
    So in a way it would be very similar to heartland conquerer.

    And it would also stack with it and become a balance problem down the line.

    So you think running twice born and heartland would be an issue? The only damage you're getting from your set is 129 on gold heartland.

    You're also talking about a setup that would require at least one crafted jewelry (that's assuming no monster helm). That in and of itself would stop most players from running both.

    Let's say you run warrior. Your TBS is now new moon.

    Let's say you run lover. Your TBS is Spriggans/spinners.

    Let's say you run mage. Your TBS is now Crafty.

    So you run heartland with NMA or Spriggans or crafty. What's the difference?

    No, it's not. If it were, why exactly are you advocating for the change...?

    We both know the answer.

    I'm not actually. I wouldn't run it. All I said was it would be strong but not over powered and I outlined comparisons to other sets.
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  • WrathOfInnos
    WrathOfInnos
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    No.

    Because of the way how ZOS' state machine, or whatever you want to call how they manage player states in the game works, the set would eventually become bugged and grant the bonus without ever having to have 5 pieces of it.

    It was already exploited like this in the past, no to any changes that open the door for it again.

    Hard no for me on TBS working the way OP wants.

    EDit:
    So in a way it would be very similar to heartland conquerer.

    And it would also stack with it and become a balance problem down the line.

    So you think running twice born and heartland would be an issue? The only damage you're getting from your set is 129 on gold heartland.

    You're also talking about a setup that would require at least one crafted jewelry (that's assuming no monster helm). That in and of itself would stop most players from running both.

    Let's say you run warrior. Your TBS is now new moon.

    Let's say you run lover. Your TBS is Spriggans/spinners.

    Let's say you run mage. Your TBS is now Crafty.

    So you run heartland with NMA or Spriggans or crafty. What's the difference?

    No, it's not. If it were, why exactly are you advocating for the change...?

    We both know the answer.
    No.

    Because of the way how ZOS' state machine, or whatever you want to call how they manage player states in the game works, the set would eventually become bugged and grant the bonus without ever having to have 5 pieces of it.

    It was already exploited like this in the past, no to any changes that open the door for it again.

    Hard no for me on TBS working the way OP wants.

    EDit:
    So in a way it would be very similar to heartland conquerer.

    And it would also stack with it and become a balance problem down the line.

    So you think running twice born and heartland would be an issue? The only damage you're getting from your set is 129 on gold heartland.

    You're also talking about a setup that would require at least one crafted jewelry (that's assuming no monster helm). That in and of itself would stop most players from running both.

    Let's say you run warrior. Your TBS is now new moon.

    Let's say you run lover. Your TBS is Spriggans/spinners.

    Let's say you run mage. Your TBS is now Crafty.

    So you run heartland with NMA or Spriggans or crafty. What's the difference?

    No, it's not. If it were, why exactly are you advocating for the change...?

    We both know the answer.

    I'm not actually. I wouldn't run it. All I said was it would be strong but not over powered and I outlined comparisons to other sets.

    I have to agree with EndBringer in this one. Advocating for a weak set to be buffed into relevance isn’t a selfish agenda. It could be used by anyone, and wouldn’t be any stronger than current sets. I likely still won’t use it, but that’s no reason to leave it on the trash list.

    In my opinion TBS should still fall about 1% to 1.5% DPS behind meta sets, assuming that it kept the line of health. Right now it is far worse than that, about 4% behind, and requiring 9 traits is a joke.
    Edited by WrathOfInnos on August 13, 2021 6:26PM
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