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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8098811/#Comment_8098811
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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8098811/#Comment_8098811
Are monster sets worth using anymore?
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Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo✭✭✭✭✭
✭No not really...not only did we have to refarm light pieces, but now we don't even put two sets together
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Lerozain✭✭✭✭"Sets that use Weapon and Spell Damage now require 6574 of either in order to reach their original values"
I'd like to know how many magicka DDs are running around with 6.5k SD. Thats a ridiculously high cap, what is Zos doing...25 -
M_Volsung✭✭✭✭✭Meh... I'll just keep using Engine Guardian."In the Deep Halls, Far from Men;
Forsaken Red Mountain, Twisted Kin;
Hail the Mind, Hail the Stone;
Dwarven Pride, Stronger than Bone"
—Dwemer Inquiries I-III, Thelwe Ghelein3 -
Varana✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭"Sets that use Weapon and Spell Damage now require 6574 of either in order to reach their original values"
I'd like to know how many magicka DDs are running around with 6.5k SD. Thats a ridiculously high cap, what is Zos doing...
They set it at some value. Then some tryhard PvPers came along and did some videos where they exploited that value with a stam build. And because ZOS is lazy, they responded by raising the value for both equally.14 -
Larcomar✭✭✭✭✭[/quote]
They set it at some value. Then some tryhard PvPers came along and did some videos where they exploited that value with a stam build. And because ZOS is lazy, they responded by raising the value for both equally.[/quote]
So, just so I've got this straight....
- People on the pvp forums complained about proc sets being overpowered in pvp so zos banned them from cyro.
- Other pvpers complained that was ridiculously heavy handed, so zos agreed to reintroduce them in U30.
- But to keep the first group happy, zos basically nerfed their damage by linking to spell dmg affecting everyone
- That wasn't enough for some for the first group, so they've nerfed them even harder requiring 6500 spell dmg to do the damage they did before.
Do they seriously think that *anyone* is going to be happy with this outcome? I mean, the anti proc set crew are already complaining and want their own proc free campaign. The pro proc people aren't going to use them now if you need 6500 spell dmg. But now the pve'rs arn't going to able to use them either.
I mean, lets be quite clear, monster sets arn't bad, but two one piece's were already better damage most of the time in pve. And proc sets more generally just didn't scale well in vet so were strictly for RP, casual players or a bit of RND fun. Are zos hell bent on ruining everyone's fun?
Edited by Larcomar on May 18, 2021 9:38AM24 -
Septimus_Magna✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Septimus_Magna wrote: »SidraWillowsky wrote: »Next patch most will be useless on magicka DDs; the spell power values necessary to reach even *close* to their damage numbers on live are pretty much impossible to achieve.
Kiss your Skoria/Zaan/Grothdarr goodbye now; ZOS killed them.
Most players will probably use one of the new Mythics so its not such a problem to trade in a monster set.
Mythics are part of antiquities, and aside from being a time-consuming, mental health-draining pain to acquire, are still pay-walled behind Greymoor. So it is kind P2W-ish and that sucks. Granted, ESO has been sliding down the P2W slippery slope for a while now but hey.
By nature each payed update introduces some kind of P2W element because its pointless to add new stuff that isnt an improvement.
Remember all the strong sets that were added to the game when Kyne's Aegis was released? Neither do I...PC - EU (AD)Septimus Mezar - Altmer Sorcerer
Septimus Rulanir - Orsimer Templar
Septimus Desmoru - Khajiit Necromancer
Septimus Iroh - Dunmer Dragon Knight
Septimus Thragar - Dunmer Nightblade
Septimus Jah'zar - Khajiit Nightblade
Septimus Nerox - Redguard Warden
Septimus Ozurk - Orsimer Sorcerer4 -
Sarannah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
Thank you for stating this.... But I don't get ZOS with this. They want the low end dps, and top end dps to come closer together. Shouldn't those sets be full potential until they reach that threshold, and be lower after the threshold? So they give low-end dps more damage, while giving high-end dps lower damage. Making the high-end/low-end gap much smaller.Septimus_Magna wrote: »Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »I think I have reading comprehension difficulty. May someone please tell me about this WD/SD requirement? I may very well have missed something.
From PTS patch notes 7.0.2:
General
Made the following adjustments to item set scaling:- Sets that use Weapon and Spell Damage now require 6574 of either in order to reach their original values, up from 5478, resulting in approximately a 17% reduction.
- Sets that use Magicka or Stamina now require 39,901 of either in order to reach their original values, up from 38,350, resulting in approximately a 4% reduction.
- Sets that use Health now require 43,968 to reach their original values, up from 38,350, resulting in approximately a 13% reduction.
- Sets that use Physical or Spell Resistance now require 30,680 of either, up from 27,890, resulting in approximately a 9% reduction.
3 -
FluffWit✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭My question is how much are you going to lose and how fast? If a set deals, saylor 10k damage at 6500 spell damage what will it deal at 5500 spell damage? And so on.
And are they nerfing Arena weapons? Will my Masters Bow lose some of its Proc damage if my weapon damage isnt particularly high?
Because if they're ignoring all the Arena procs and just nerfing 5 piece and monster sets I'll probably end up running a 5 piece, 3 agility/ willpower, an arena weapon, a mythic and half a monster set on most of my toons.2 -
etchedpixels✭✭✭✭✭
✭Septimus_Magna wrote: »Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »I think I have reading comprehension difficulty. May someone please tell me about this WD/SD requirement? I may very well have missed something.
From PTS patch notes 7.0.2:
True but those are PTS tuning of the moment. They may still change and there are plenty of ways to tune them to better fit the goals yet - from making the scaling non-linear to setting a lower requirement and having cap so that the silly build tricks don't achieve anything. The underlying concept is a good one - to maximise something you must take the hit elsewhere. It's just the devil in the detail as ever.
Still it'll be even more fun if the meta for random normals includes the ring of the wild hunt 8)
Too many toons not enough time0 -
Wolf_Eye✭✭✭✭✭
✭My question is how much are you going to lose and how fast? If a set deals, saylor 10k damage at 6500 spell damage what will it deal at 5500 spell damage? And so on.
And are they nerfing Arena weapons? Will my Masters Bow lose some of its Proc damage if my weapon damage isnt particularly high?
Because if they're ignoring all the Arena procs and just nerfing 5 piece and monster sets I'll probably end up running a 5 piece, 3 agility/ willpower, an arena weapon, a mythic and half a monster set on most of my toons.
Any sets that proc are affected, not just monster sets. I haven't seen them releasing a full list of what they consider proc sets, but I would think all sets (including Arena sets) would definitely fall under these categories unless they give just flat stats.
EDIT: Actually there does seem to be a full list of affected sets in the patch notes for 7.0.0 if you want to check it out.Edited by Wolf_Eye on May 18, 2021 7:04PM1 -
Everest_Lionheart✭✭✭✭✭Septimus_Magna wrote: »Septimus_Magna wrote: »SidraWillowsky wrote: »Next patch most will be useless on magicka DDs; the spell power values necessary to reach even *close* to their damage numbers on live are pretty much impossible to achieve.
Kiss your Skoria/Zaan/Grothdarr goodbye now; ZOS killed them.
Most players will probably use one of the new Mythics so its not such a problem to trade in a monster set.
Mythics are part of antiquities, and aside from being a time-consuming, mental health-draining pain to acquire, are still pay-walled behind Greymoor. So it is kind P2W-ish and that sucks. Granted, ESO has been sliding down the P2W slippery slope for a while now but hey.
By nature each payed update introduces some kind of P2W element because its pointless to add new stuff that isnt an improvement.
Remember all the strong sets that were added to the game when Kyne's Aegis was released? Neither do I...
Roaring Opportunist comes from Kyne’s and what that allowed for for Magcro to take off Master architect and run straight damage sets which vaulted them to the top of the DPS charts.0 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭etchedpixels wrote: »Septimus_Magna wrote: »Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »I think I have reading comprehension difficulty. May someone please tell me about this WD/SD requirement? I may very well have missed something.
From PTS patch notes 7.0.2:
True but those are PTS tuning of the moment. They may still change and there are plenty of ways to tune them to better fit the goals yet - from making the scaling non-linear to setting a lower requirement and having cap so that the silly build tricks don't achieve anything. The underlying concept is a good one - to maximise something you must take the hit elsewhere. It's just the devil in the detail as ever.
Still it'll be even more fun if the meta for random normals includes the ring of the wild hunt 8)
I used to be hopeful and optimistic...3 -
Tessitura✭✭✭✭✭Ippokrates wrote: »Septimus_Magna wrote: »Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »I think I have reading comprehension difficulty. May someone please tell me about this WD/SD requirement? I may very well have missed something.
From PTS patch notes 7.0.2:
General
Made the following adjustments to item set scaling:- Sets that use Weapon and Spell Damage now require 6574 of either in order to reach their original values, up from 5478, resulting in approximately a 17% reduction.
- Sets that use Magicka or Stamina now require 39,901 of either in order to reach their original values, up from 38,350, resulting in approximately a 4% reduction.
- Sets that use Health now require 43,968 to reach their original values, up from 38,350, resulting in approximately a 13% reduction.
- Sets that use Physical or Spell Resistance now require 30,680 of either, up from 27,890, resulting in approximately a 9% reduction.
I shd have probably cut and pasted it. Apologies. Worth having the list of monster sets too - while the health requirements sounds doable for a tank, and the max magicka requirement are certainly achievable, the vast maj scale off spell damage. Which, even if you were stacking it, looks unachievable:
Monster Masks
The following sets now scale off of your Weapon or Spell Damage, whichever is higher:
Domihaus' damage
Grothdarr's damage
Iceheart's damage
Ilambris' damage
Kjalnar's Nightmare's damage
Kra'gh's damage
Maw of the Infernal's damage
Nerien'eth's damage
Selene's damage
Sellistrix's damage
Spawn of Mephala's damage
Stone Husk's damage
Stormfist's damage
Valkyn Skoria's damage
Velidreth's damage
Zaan's damage
The following sets now scale off of your Max Magicka or Stamina, whichever is higher:
Chokethorn's heal
Earthgore's heal
Nightflame's heal
The following sets now scale off your Max Health:
Lady Thorn's damage
Scourge Harvester's damage
Shadowrend's damage
Thurvokun's damage
The following set now scales off of your Physical or Spell Resistance, whichever is higher:
Tremorscale's damage
I am no expert on magicka, cause I always prefer stamina chars, but with increased base dmg from dual/2h weapons, bonus from medium armour & bonus from fighters guild, stamina chars will reach those values far easier than magicka?
But magicka get advantages over all stam in the area of penetration and over melee stam with their range. (There's a reason a bow is the same base damage as a staff, not a 2-handed melee weapon.)
Someone did the math on that and even with pen magicka was over all doing less damage in the pts. The difference was something like 1k-2k less on hits with proc sets. Stam is hitting harder with magicka sets even. Shouldn't have made these sets scale of whatever was higher. This doesnt mean too much on pve since mag builds usually get far superior area damage and higher sustained damage. But in pvp is kind of a nut crush in a meta that already heavily favors stam builds. I will wait and see how it actually pans out once everyone starts playing with the scaling, but it does not look good.3 -
Dagoth_Rac✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »Thank you for stating this.... But I don't get ZOS with this. They want the low end dps, and top end dps to come closer together. Shouldn't those sets be full potential until they reach that threshold, and be lower after the threshold? So they give low-end dps more damage, while giving high-end dps lower damage. Making the high-end/low-end gap much smaller.
That would be problematic because, ironically, proc sets were a "floor" problem in PvP. With very little investment in offensive stats, you could get good damage from proc sets. So you could use attributes and traits and glyphs to go full healthy/tanky, but get strong damage from multiple proc sets. If they were to scale proc sets by making them give good damage upfront and put a cap on extra damage from offensive stats, you would be back in same situation where low-end dps health/tank builds are getting too much damage.
It is a really tricky problem because in PvP they want to lower the floor of proc sets, the complete opposite of everything they are trying to do in PvE. The proc set changes should have been incorporated into PvP battle spirit, not made global. It is one of the most glaring examples yet of PvE and PvP just having completely opposite goals and trying to find a one-size-fits-all formula for both PvP and PvE will just never work.
15 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
They set it at some value. Then some tryhard PvPers came along and did some videos where they exploited that value with a stam build. And because ZOS is lazy, they responded by raising the value for both equally.[/quote]
So, just so I've got this straight....
- People on the pvp forums complained about proc sets being overpowered in pvp so zos banned them from cyro.
- Other pvpers complained that was ridiculously heavy handed, so zos agreed to reintroduce them in U30.
- But to keep the first group happy, zos basically nerfed their damage by linking to spell dmg affecting everyone
- That wasn't enough for some for the first group, so they've nerfed them even harder requiring 6500 spell dmg to do the damage they did before.
Do they seriously think that *anyone* is going to be happy with this outcome? I mean, the anti proc set crew are already complaining and want their own proc free campaign. The pro proc people aren't going to use them now if you need 6500 spell dmg. But now the pve'rs arn't going to able to use them either.
I mean, lets be quite clear, monster sets arn't bad, but two one piece's were already better damage most of the time in pve. And proc sets more generally just didn't scale well in vet so were strictly for RP, casual players or a bit of RND fun. Are zos hell bent on ruining everyone's fun?
[/quote]
Yep, you've got it right.
It's the militant anti-proc crowd that's primarily responsible for getting us all here.
The meta from back then truly was annoying but it was one of the greatest Monkey's Paw deals of all time when ZOS attempted to pacify the anti-proc crowd by banning all but 19 sets in Cyrodiil for four solid months.
Now we're about to enter another 3 month period where procs are essentially ruined for both PvE and Magicka players and who even knows what balance horrors await us after that.
Of course, ZOS is culpable in that they have obstinately refused to take the easy off-ramps out of this situation, e.g. selectively nerfing the small handful of offending sets and/or reducing proc damage in PvP via Battle Spirit.14 -
Nagastani✭✭✭✭I know in trial stuff the meta has long been two separate crit pieces. But for everyday use, I've found monster helms reasonably effective and above all fun. And it lends itself to some cool builds eg elfbane + grothdar on my mag dk, selenes on my beary warden, maW on my pet sorc.
Looking at update 30 though, it now looks like they've now raised the spell / wpn damage requirement even further - "Sets that use Weapon and Spell Damage now require 6574 of either in order to reach their original values, up from 5478."
I can't conceive of getting anywhere near 5500 yet alone 6500 spell damage on my mag toons. The mag dk's probably trogging along at 3500 when BSW pops. No clue where my other mag toons are at, but I'd guess similar or lower - they're generally running stuff like MS, medusa. Stam toons maybe better off but that's still alot of wpm dmg.
Are monster helms now dead? - I'm assuming the reduction is vaguely linear? - ie if your spell dmg is 1/2 the new requirement, is the damage 1/2?
Given proc sets almost certainly are - they're fun in rnds but never scaled well in vet content anyway - are we all supposed to just stack crit now and forget anything else?
A better question might be which monster helms synergize best with the mythic item?
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YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Emmagoldman wrote: »
You're right, not all PvP'ers asked for this change. Rather, it was a vocal minority of anti-proc PvP'ers that, even now, continue to push for solutions that will extend the de facto ban on proc sets in PvP.
They aren't even in the majority of PvP players and they aren't even remotely close to being in the majority of overall ESO players but it was their wish for massive nerfs to proc sets in PvP that precipitated this entire situation.5 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭6.5k Spell Damage is relatively achievable, but does require some sacrifices (Berserker instead of Poison enchant, Elf instead of Khajiit, Siroria instead of Bahsei’s or FGD). Even at that point monster sets still aren’t worth using though. Damage procs in general have just lost so much over the years, with one of the more recent examples being CP2.0 with lower % multipliers affecting procs.Edited by WrathOfInnos on May 18, 2021 11:50PM2 -
Everstorm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Ever thought that maybe if ZoS did put more time and resources into Cyrodiil then nonsense "solutions" like this wouldn't be necessary?6 -
Everstorm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Emmagoldman wrote: »
For me personally mythics are more worthwhile than monster sets in PvE. This nerf to monster sets just makes that even more so. I didn't link mythics to PvP3 -
Tessitura✭✭✭✭✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »Emmagoldman wrote: »
You're right, not all PvP'ers asked for this change. Rather, it was a vocal minority of anti-proc PvP'ers that, even now, continue to push for solutions that will extend the de facto ban on proc sets in PvP.
They aren't even in the majority of PvP players and they aren't even remotely close to being in the majority of overall ESO players but it was their wish for massive nerfs to proc sets in PvP that precipitated this entire situation.
I think you are getting mad at the wrong people, and honestly, give the ZOS devs a easy out on it. The devs and or their bosses ultimately make the calls here. Not only do they decide what feedback to listen to, which is rarely done to begin with, but they also are the ones that made things the way they are and the way they will be. It's their solution, it's their design, and their call. Pass or fail it's all on them. Procs are a problem issue in pvp and there is honestly no way around that fact, and something should be done. They have all the feedback they need to know how badly this patch of theirs can and probably will turn out and they so far are choosing to sit on their hands. The devs, not the players are the ones. If you want things to get better then you gotta direct your expectations and disapproval to them. Everyone for the most part are on the same side of this right now, most people see it as a glaring issue.Edited by Tessitura on May 20, 2021 4:02PM6 -
disintegr8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭WTF are they doing just butchering everything. Im still not over the CP attack and now this BS.
I'm with you. Just came back into the game before the CP rework and think the new setup sucks big time. Had 1281 CP, with more than a million XP needed for each point and feel we got shafted. Suddenly you only need 300k XP for each new point and no compensation for all the million plus points I earned.
Now all the monster sets I collected will be worthless and I have to farm new stuff to replace it.Australian on PS4 NA server.
Everyone's entitled to an opinion.5 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »6.5k Spell Damage is relatively achievable, but does require some sacrifices (Berserker instead of Poison enchant, Elf instead of Khajiit, Siroria instead of Bahsei’s or FGD). Even at that point monster sets still aren’t worth using though. Damage procs in general have just lost so much over the years, with one of the more recent examples being CP2.0 with lower % multipliers affecting procs.
6.5k outside of well composed groups is still a stretch if you aren't forgoing some other more efficient stats.
Dunmer + Siroria + BSW + infused berserker + Apprentice mundus + 3 dmg glyphs with standard maj sorcery buff barely put you up to that.
And then your crit + pen suck really hard. Not to mention that in PvE proc sets are a flavor tool for those non min/maxers even now. Those who usually spread their stats because they aren't top tier players able to run with no investment in regen etc. So your conclusion is right. The investment isn't worth it to get a single monster set at the power level of the current patch.5 -
Septimus_Magna✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »WrathOfInnos wrote: »6.5k Spell Damage is relatively achievable, but does require some sacrifices (Berserker instead of Poison enchant, Elf instead of Khajiit, Siroria instead of Bahsei’s or FGD). Even at that point monster sets still aren’t worth using though. Damage procs in general have just lost so much over the years, with one of the more recent examples being CP2.0 with lower % multipliers affecting procs.
6.5k outside of well composed groups is still a stretch if you aren't forgoing some other more efficient stats.
Dunmer + Siroria + BSW + infused berserker + Apprentice mundus + 3 dmg glyphs with standard maj sorcery buff barely put you up to that.
And then your crit + pen suck really hard. Not to mention that in PvE proc sets are a flavor tool for those non min/maxers even now. Those who usually spread their stats because they aren't top tier players able to run with no investment in regen etc. So your conclusion is right. The investment isn't worth it to get a single monster set at the power level of the current patch.
You can get a lot of SD from Bloodthirsty, from 60% health and below this will surpass 3x infused.
In most groups you will also get major and minor courage which helps a lot.
Zaan will probably be fine if you run Siroria, other proc sets are probably not so viable due to the already weaker proc effect.PC - EU (AD)Septimus Mezar - Altmer Sorcerer
Septimus Rulanir - Orsimer Templar
Septimus Desmoru - Khajiit Necromancer
Septimus Iroh - Dunmer Dragon Knight
Septimus Thragar - Dunmer Nightblade
Septimus Jah'zar - Khajiit Nightblade
Septimus Nerox - Redguard Warden
Septimus Ozurk - Orsimer Sorcerer0 -
AyaDark✭✭✭✭✭Artifact + 1 crit part is always better.
It is bad balanced patch again.
Monsters sets are now - Cosplay only - that is really BAD !!!
Very bad balance again in new update (current PTS version)4
