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Please remove all proc sets from BG's

  • olsborg
    olsborg
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    The core of the problem is that dmg-proccsets will deal more damage than any other max stat set by far. Same goes for healingproccs. If you look at the most popular dmging proccsets at any given time, they will deal so much more dmg then the best max stat set that they shouldnt even exist in the same galaxy.

    There must be balance.

    PC EU
    PvP only
  • MurderMostFoul
    MurderMostFoul
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    olsborg wrote: »
    The core of the problem is that dmg-proccsets will deal more damage than any other max stat set by far. Same goes for healingproccs. If you look at the most popular dmging proccsets at any given time, they will deal so much more dmg then the best max stat set that they shouldnt even exist in the same galaxy.

    There must be balance.

    Agreed, there must be balance. I, for one, don't like proc sets, but I do feel like they are decently balanced in BGs this patch. Now that base damage is increased, the damage from proc sets doesn't outshine regular skill based damage with stat sets quite as much. And although mathematically, proc sets still offer greater total damage, that higher damage total is typically spread somewhat thin with dots, or on a burst proc that then goes on cooldown. There is a greater degree of control over damage bursts that just come from skills and/or you can line them up more frequently.
    “There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.”
  • ZOS_ConnorG
    Greetings all,

    After review we have had to edit or remove several posts for rule violations, mostly Baiting. Ensure when engaging in a discussion that you keep said discussion civil, constructive, and within the rules. If you see a post that is baiting in nature do not engage it with further hostility and instead report it for the moderators to review.

    You are welcome to review the Community Rules here.
    Staff Post
  • Rhaegar75
    Rhaegar75
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    I’d love to explain the fun of being in a BG where all you see are Vates and Zaan beams while a high health & high damage warden keeps you nice and slow.

    My great grandad could play a high health warden with proc sets doing all the work.

    How is that a fun or fair game experience? ZOS must tune some combinations down. I don’t want procs out but I’d simply like BGs to require more than 1 finger to be played
  • master_vanargand
    master_vanargand
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    At least proc damage sets should be nerfed.
    Don't give up on balancing the game.
  • Waffennacht
    Waffennacht
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    I absolutely hate gank or gank like builds. Any meta that makes them less desirable is fine by me
    Gamer tag: DasPanzerKat NA Xbox One
    1300+ CP
    Battleground PvP'er

    Waffennacht' Builds
  • Chase0351
    Chase0351
    I think the alternative solution besides removing them completely is to make it so that a player can only wear one proc set at a time similar to the way they set up mythic items. And they need to dial back the damage by a lot. They should crit less than a light attack since they are in fact free damage.
    but I do feel like they are decently balanced in BGs this patch. Now that base damage is increased, the damage from proc sets doesn't outshine regular skill based damage with stat sets quite as much. And although mathematically, proc sets still offer greater total damage, that higher damage total is typically spread somewhat thin with dots, or on a burst proc that then goes on cooldown. There is a greater degree of control over damage bursts that just come from skills and/or you can line them up more frequently.

    I'm sorry, but you're so wrong here and you're spreading misinformation. Procs like hunters venom are still hitting for 9k+ in no cp battlegrounds. That's over 1/3 of most players health. Yet over and over throughout this discussion proc set defenders/users keep stating that they have gotten much better this patch. I'm in the field experiencing it and not hugging the forums and I can tell you that's just not the case. Proc sets are still carrying players through pvp content. I played against a magdk the other day wearing grothdarr and all he did was fossilize and light attack while his grothdarr wore his opponent down trying to kill him. He was able to do this due to being quite tanky on top of shield stacking. @ZOS_ConnorG Where's the fun in playing against people like that who maliciously seek out broken builds to exploit in this game in order to boost their own ego via the scoreboard?

    Hopefully none of this will be interpreted as baiting because honestly that's not what I'm trying to do here. ZOS should join this discussion instead of just arguing back and forth amongst ourselves. It's achieving nothing. Honestly, a lot of players want these sets gone. It's evident by all of the positive feedback coming from open world pvp players in cyrodiil. And I like some sets like bloodspawn, clever alchemist and 7th legion but I would gladly watch them go if that meant getting rid of the real problem sets. ESO is so awesome in so many ways yet player versus player content has a lot of problems and I think proc sets are pretty high up on the list right now and have been for quite some time. #statbasedsetsonlyinpvp #healyourself #doyourowndamage #manageyourownresources #buffyourself #dotheworktowin #nomorehandouts #bringskillbasedpvpback
  • Chase0351
    Chase0351
    Rhaegar75 wrote: »
    I’d love to explain the fun of being in a BG where all you see are Vates and Zaan beams while a high health & high damage warden keeps you nice and slow.

    My great grandad could play a high health warden with proc sets doing all the work.

    How is that a fun or fair game experience? ZOS must tune some combinations down. I don’t want procs out but I’d simply like BGs to require more than 1 finger to be played

    The fact that "health warden" is a known thing in ESO is absurd. They create a class that they're selling for money to players that has the potential the outclass the other base classes. You shouldn't be able to throw your wallet at the game in order to win. Not in pvp. ZOS needs to step up and do what's right and eliminate things like "health warden". It's outrageous!
  • Chase0351
    Chase0351
    I absolutely hate gank or gank like builds. Any meta that makes them less desirable is fine by me

    I read your post and it made me think about the big armor changes we got this patch... Everyone complained about "tank meta builds" and how it's unreal to wear heavy armor and do good dps(wasn't a problem in medievil days though, so... yeah.). So, they nerf tank builds yet GANK builds have been slowly getting buffed each patch. Probably to give inexperienced players an easy option to jump into pvp. The problem is some vets players use these builds too and exploit them. Proc sets are a big contributor to gank builds being such a problem on top of the fact that they're stacking poison dots and getting guaranteed crits from cloak 100% of the time. And detection pots do no good against kiting, cloaking nightblades. Hunters venom procs hitting for 9k plus snipe spamming with double dot poison on their weapons on top of attacking from stealth is a bit much. At least by eliminating the proc set it would bring these kinds of builds a bit closer in line with the rest.

    People shouldn't be picking their class because it outshines the others on the battlefield. That shows class imbalance. Players should pick their class based on how they like to play the game. However, the latter is not always the case because this game clearly has imbalances within the classes and a lot of it stems from bad elements within the system like proc sets. They simply tip the scale and that's wrong. PVP needs to boil down to player skill.
    Edited by Chase0351 on April 5, 2021 1:10PM
  • MurderMostFoul
    MurderMostFoul
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    Chase0351 wrote: »
    I think the alternative solution besides removing them completely is to make it so that a player can only wear one proc set at a time similar to the way they set up mythic items. And they need to dial back the damage by a lot. They should crit less than a light attack since they are in fact free damage.
    but I do feel like they are decently balanced in BGs this patch. Now that base damage is increased, the damage from proc sets doesn't outshine regular skill based damage with stat sets quite as much. And although mathematically, proc sets still offer greater total damage, that higher damage total is typically spread somewhat thin with dots, or on a burst proc that then goes on cooldown. There is a greater degree of control over damage bursts that just come from skills and/or you can line them up more frequently.

    I'm sorry, but you're so wrong here and you're spreading misinformation. Procs like hunters venom are still hitting for 9k+ in no cp battlegrounds. That's over 1/3 of most players health. Yet over and over throughout this discussion proc set defenders/users keep stating that they have gotten much better this patch. I'm in the field experiencing it and not hugging the forums and I can tell you that's just not the case. Proc sets are still carrying players through pvp content. I played against a magdk the other day wearing grothdarr and all he did was fossilize and light attack while his grothdarr wore his opponent down trying to kill him. He was able to do this due to being quite tanky on top of shield stacking. @ZOS_ConnorG Where's the fun in playing against people like that who maliciously seek out broken builds to exploit in this game in order to boost their own ego via the scoreboard?

    Hopefully none of this will be interpreted as baiting because honestly that's not what I'm trying to do here. ZOS should join this discussion instead of just arguing back and forth amongst ourselves. It's achieving nothing. Honestly, a lot of players want these sets gone. It's evident by all of the positive feedback coming from open world pvp players in cyrodiil. And I like some sets like bloodspawn, clever alchemist and 7th legion but I would gladly watch them go if that meant getting rid of the real problem sets. ESO is so awesome in so many ways yet player versus player content has a lot of problems and I think proc sets are pretty high up on the list right now and have been for quite some time. #statbasedsetsonlyinpvp #healyourself #doyourowndamage #manageyourownresources #buffyourself #dotheworktowin #nomorehandouts #bringskillbasedpvpback

    As I stated, I am not a proc user (on the 28 sets I use between my 7 max lvl/BG geared PvP toons, I use 2 proc sets, Selenes on one, engine guardian on another). I'm also not here to defend damage/healing procs because I also feel that the game is healthier when players have to use skills for damage and healing. And to be perfectly transparent, my experience this patch is limited to high MMR solo queue BGs on Xbox NA and 6 of the 7 characters I use are stamina. At this point, I've probably played around 100 BGs this patch. In Deathmatch (the only game mode in which aim for a good KD) my KD typically ranges from 3 to 5, with fairly frequent outings where my KD is 10 or higher.

    So with all of that context, my experience this patch has not shown proc sets to be a major problem. An occasional annoyance, yes. But not overly oppressive.
    Chase0351 wrote: »
    Proc sets are still carrying players through pvp content. I played against a magdk the other day wearing grothdarr and all he did was fossilize and light attack while his grothdarr wore his opponent down trying to kill him. He was able to do this due to being quite tanky on top of shield stacking.
    Take this example you've provided - Use immobilization immunity and burst them down. One vigor should open up a burst window. If they are just so tanky that your burst is unable to take them out, pick a different target. People can tank up all they want and try to use proc sets to take out players. Healing this patch is strong enough to overcome the damage from their proc sets. And if they are so tanky, that they are near impossible to kill 1v1, disengage and wait for an opportunity when you have teammates. Players who tank up like that want you to get into a long fight with them. If you choose to indulge them, you are simply playing into their hand.

    Alternatively, players who build for damage and try to burst you with procs can be countered. They're burst windows are spread out due to proc cooldowns. As soon as they hit you with their burst, you take two or three seconds to play defensively and heal up, then as a player who has a burst that relies on skills and stat sets, you can get in two or three bursts while the other player's proc sets are on cooldown.

    Admittedly, I don't have a lot of experience with mag classes outside of magplar and I don't do group queue where I assume the meta is different. But the extensive experience I do have otherwise has made it clear that procs are in a much better place now. I played through the proc meta last patch and only used stat sets then. Perhaps that experience has made me more equipped to deal with proc users now. But for all the players who are saying that proc set users have no skill, those players should consider if there is an improvement to their skill that might help them deal with proc set users.

    “There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.”
  • Chase0351
    Chase0351
    Can we all at least agree that pvp should be based on player skill? If not then there's no point in continuing this discussion because we would be on different planets at that point. I think it would be important to define skill for the purpose of this post. Skill would be defined here as the player activating abilities to damage, heal, buff and manage resources, period. Any assistance in any of those elements of combat degrade the players skill level. It would be equivalent to activating the "handicap" setting in madden nfl or activating aim assist in call of duty.

    Note: Skill does not actually come from "theory crafting" since truth be told 90% of the player base are copying their build from someone else that they found on youtube. Let's just be upfront about that fact of life within ESO.

    Pvp is supposed to be competitive skill based gameplay. How is it competitive when some players are using "performance enhancing drugs", for lack of better words.
    Edited by Chase0351 on April 5, 2021 1:24PM
  • Chase0351
    Chase0351
    *Double post*
    Edited by Chase0351 on April 5, 2021 1:55PM
  • Chase0351
    Chase0351
    As I stated, I am not a proc user (on the 28 sets I use between my 7 max lvl/BG geared PvP toons, I use 2 proc sets, Selenes on one, engine guardian on another). I'm also not here to defend damage/healing procs because I also feel that the game is healthier when players have to use skills for damage and healing. And to be perfectly transparent, my experience this patch is limited to high MMR solo queue BGs on Xbox NA and 6 of the 7 characters I use are stamina. At this point, I've probably played around 100 BGs this patch. In Deathmatch (the only game mode in which aim for a good KD) my KD typically ranges from 3 to 5, with fairly frequent outings where my KD is 10 or higher.

    I'm probably around that number of BG's myself. Open world isn't quite my thing, I prefer the quick engagements of battlegrounds so that's basically all that I play for pvp. And I mainly pvp outside of cp grinding a little each day. My typical k/d ratio is 5/1 to 10/1 in most games. And I do not use procs sets whatsoever.
    Take this example you've provided - Use immobilization immunity and burst them down.

    It wasn't fossilize that was the issue, CC's don't bother me much in this game and that's saying a lot since they are such a big part of combat in eso. No, what bothers me are players getting a handout within pvp by getting kills that they would not have otherwise gotten. Yes, even with a good kd ratio the one or two cheese kills bothers me. When a good player gets me or I get outnumbered and there's no proc abuse on the kill recap it's all good. When someones proc set gets the kill it's a problem. Damage from proc sets should be hitting for much less than a light attack since at least the light attack was activated by the user. 9k hunters venom(from actual experience) is outrageous. And that's with 30k/27k buffed resistances 6M/1H on stam dk.
    One vigor should open up a burst window. If they are just so tanky that your burst is unable to take them out, pick a different target. People can tank up all they want and try to use proc sets to take out players. Healing this patch is strong enough to overcome the damage from their proc sets. And if they are so tanky, that they are near impossible to kill 1v1, disengage and wait for an opportunity when you have teammates. Players who tank up like that want you to get into a long fight with them. If you choose to indulge them, you are simply playing into their hand.

    Healing was nerfed this patch my friend.
    Alternatively, players who build for damage and try to burst you with procs can be countered. They're burst windows are spread out due to proc cooldowns. As soon as they hit you with their burst, you take two or three seconds to play defensively and heal up, then as a player who has a burst that relies on skills and stat sets, you can get in two or three bursts while the other player's proc sets are on cooldown.

    Totally agree in duels man. How often are you getting 1v1's in BG's though?
    Admittedly, I don't have a lot of experience with mag classes outside of magplar and I don't do group queue where I assume the meta is different. But the extensive experience I do have otherwise has made it clear that procs are in a much better place now. I played through the proc meta last patch and only used stat sets then. Perhaps that experience has made me more equipped to deal with proc users now. But for all the players who are saying that proc set users have no skill, those players should consider if there is an improvement to their skill that might help them deal with proc set users.

    I hope that regardless of the skill level we can all agree that there's room for improvement. That being said, it still doesn't remove the fact that proc sets are carrying some players through pvp content. For example, "health wardens" wouldn't even be a thing in this game if not for proc sets. But with good ole' crimson and engine guardian a bad playerer becomes a good player on the battlefield instantly instead of having to put in the time and learn game mechanics and their build as well(one that doesn't rely on assistance from procs). In pve, vet hm dlc dungeons require you to learn proper game mechanics in order to successfully complete them. Why should pvp be any different? #nomorecarrys

    Edited by Chase0351 on April 5, 2021 1:54PM
  • Chase0351
    Chase0351
    So with all of that context, my experience this patch has not shown proc sets to be a major problem. An occasional annoyance, yes. But not overly oppressive.

    To be totally transparent, your experience is from the perspective of someone that in fact still uses proc sets in battlegrounds pvp, where as I do not use any proc sets of any kind in pvp whatsoever. You can try to downplay them if you'd like, however, selene's and engine guardian are in fact two very popular proc sets. One gives you free burst damage and the other free healing and/or resource management. Take that for whatever it's worth.
    I use 2 proc sets, Selenes on one, engine guardian on another.
    Edited by Chase0351 on April 5, 2021 2:04PM
  • MurderMostFoul
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    Chase0351 wrote: »
    Healing was nerfed this patch my friend.

    Healing was actually buffed. Last patch Battle Spirit had a -55% healing received modifier. This patch is -50%. And with higher base stats, heals are even stronger. Overall a significant buff to PvP heals. Plenty to overcome <1k dps from Hunters Venom.
    Chase0351 wrote: »
    To be totally transparent, your experience is from the perspective of someone that in fact still uses proc sets in battlegrounds pvp, where as I do not use any proc sets of any kind in pvp whatsoever. You can try to downplay them if you'd like, however, selene's and engine guardian are in fact two very popular proc sets. One gives you free burst damage and the other free healing and/or resource management. Take that for whatever it's worth.

    Well I have no proc sets on my stamsorc, Stamden, stamcro, stamDK, and StamNB. And they all perform just as well as my templars.

    @Chase0351, you sound like a descent PVPer based on your purported KD. But it sounds like what you're asking for is to essentially never be killed by proc sets. I just don't see that ever being the case, they are part of the game and I don't think that's going to change. The question to ask at that point, is what proportion of your deaths are due to proc sets. For me, I can honestly say that proportion is very low. Like you said, most of my deaths are due to getting outnumbered, or just outplayed from time to time, and occasionally foolishly letting myself run out of resources. Rarely can I attribute my deaths primarily to proc sets, and it sounds like you have a similar experience. That being the case, they feel decently balanced to me. Again, I don't like them, but given that maybe only 1 in 10 of my deaths come from them, I just don't see them as a major problem anymore.

    If proc sets are making up a much larger proportion of a player's deaths, that player probably just needs to change their approach to better deal with proc sets users.

    Edited by MurderMostFoul on April 5, 2021 2:30PM
    “There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.”
  • Chase0351
    Chase0351
    Chase0351 wrote: »
    Healing was nerfed this patch my friend.

    Healing was actually buffed. Last patch Battle Spirit had a -55% healing received modifier. This patch is -50%. And with higher base stats, heals are even stronger. Overall a significant buff to PvP heals. Plenty to overcome <1k dps from Hunters Venom.
    Chase0351 wrote: »
    To be totally transparent, your experience is from the perspective of someone that in fact still uses proc sets in battlegrounds pvp, where as I do not use any proc sets of any kind in pvp whatsoever. You can try to downplay them if you'd like, however, selene's and engine guardian are in fact two very popular proc sets. One gives you free burst damage and the other free healing and/or resource management. Take that for whatever it's worth.

    Well I have no proc sets on my stamsorc, Stamden, stamcro, stamDK, and StamNB. And they all perform just as well as my templars.

    @Chase0351, you sound like a descent PVPer based on your purported KD. But it sounds like what you're asking for is to essentially never be killed by proc sets. I just don't see that ever being the case, they are part of the game and I don't think that's going to change. The question to ask at that point, is what proportion of your deaths are due to proc sets. For me, I can honestly say that proportion is very low. Like you said, most of my deaths are due to getting outnumbered, or just outplayed from time to time, and occasionally foolishly letting myself run out of resources. Rarely can I attribute my deaths primarily to proc sets, and it sounds like you have a similar experience. That being the case, they feel decently balanced to me. Again, I don't like them, but given that maybe only 1 in 10 of my deaths come from them, I just don't see them as a major problem anymore.

    If proc sets are making up a much larger proportion of a player's deaths, that player probably just needs to change their approach to better deal with proc sets users.

    I know that they're not going anywhere. Proc sets are a part of the business model for eso in a sense. They're advertised for new dungeons coming out, etc.

    What I'm saying is that since we all know that they are not going anywhere then they should get nerfed, heavily. It should not be difficult to create a code similar to that of mythic items in where one can only wear one proc set at any given time. That way players cannot stack the proc damage. Also, the proc damage should be 50% less than a light attack unbuffed since it's free damage coming from the proc set and at least the light attack has to be manually activated, which requires more skill. Therefore, the light attack should hit harder than the freeby from the proc set. Timing procs is not skill based so let's move past that por favor y Gracias.
    Plenty to overcome <1k dps from Hunters Venom.

    I had one hit for 9k last week as shown in my kill recap from a gank build. I wish I would've took a ss now. That's pretty substantial if you ask me. I run around in bg's with about 26.5k health so that equals to about 1/3 of my health. That would have been 1/3 more time to fight and potentially survive if not bursted down 1/3 faster by a gankers hunters venom proc set. It basically turned a cheese build into velveeta.

    If players want to run 1 proc set in their build for the sake of "build diversity", ok fine. But it should strictly be for "flavor" and not become a major part of their outgoing damage since it's free.

    @MurderMostFoul I don't think that is too much to ask for, do you?
  • MurderMostFoul
    MurderMostFoul
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    Chase0351 wrote: »
    Chase0351 wrote: »
    Healing was nerfed this patch my friend.

    Healing was actually buffed. Last patch Battle Spirit had a -55% healing received modifier. This patch is -50%. And with higher base stats, heals are even stronger. Overall a significant buff to PvP heals. Plenty to overcome <1k dps from Hunters Venom.
    Chase0351 wrote: »
    To be totally transparent, your experience is from the perspective of someone that in fact still uses proc sets in battlegrounds pvp, where as I do not use any proc sets of any kind in pvp whatsoever. You can try to downplay them if you'd like, however, selene's and engine guardian are in fact two very popular proc sets. One gives you free burst damage and the other free healing and/or resource management. Take that for whatever it's worth.

    Well I have no proc sets on my stamsorc, Stamden, stamcro, stamDK, and StamNB. And they all perform just as well as my templars.

    @Chase0351, you sound like a descent PVPer based on your purported KD. But it sounds like what you're asking for is to essentially never be killed by proc sets. I just don't see that ever being the case, they are part of the game and I don't think that's going to change. The question to ask at that point, is what proportion of your deaths are due to proc sets. For me, I can honestly say that proportion is very low. Like you said, most of my deaths are due to getting outnumbered, or just outplayed from time to time, and occasionally foolishly letting myself run out of resources. Rarely can I attribute my deaths primarily to proc sets, and it sounds like you have a similar experience. That being the case, they feel decently balanced to me. Again, I don't like them, but given that maybe only 1 in 10 of my deaths come from them, I just don't see them as a major problem anymore.

    If proc sets are making up a much larger proportion of a player's deaths, that player probably just needs to change their approach to better deal with proc sets users.

    I know that they're not going anywhere. Proc sets are a part of the business model for eso in a sense. They're advertised for new dungeons coming out, etc.

    What I'm saying is that since we all know that they are not going anywhere then they should get nerfed, heavily. It should not be difficult to create a code similar to that of mythic items in where one can only wear one proc set at any given time. That way players cannot stack the proc damage. Also, the proc damage should be 50% less than a light attack unbuffed since it's free damage coming from the proc set and at least the light attack has to be manually activated, which requires more skill. Therefore, the light attack should hit harder than the freeby from the proc set. Timing procs is not skill based so let's move past that por favor y Gracias.
    Plenty to overcome <1k dps from Hunters Venom.

    I had one hit for 9k last week as shown in my kill recap from a gank build. I wish I would've took a ss now. That's pretty substantial if you ask me. I run around in bg's with about 26.5k health so that equals to about 1/3 of my health. That would have been 1/3 more time to fight and potentially survive if not bursted down 1/3 faster by a gankers hunters venom proc set. It basically turned a cheese build into velveeta.

    If players want to run 1 proc set in their build for the sake of "build diversity", ok fine. But it should strictly be for "flavor" and not become a major part of their outgoing damage since it's free.

    @MurderMostFoul I don't think that is too much to ask for, do you?

    Limiting players to one proc set at a time feels a little arbitrary, and it would force ZOS to draw a line between proc sets and non-proc sets. That prospect concerns me.

    But it's all just a numbers game. Certain proc sets that overperform should just be toned down. There are plenty out there that are already mostly useless, no need to do anything to them.
    “There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.”
  • Chase0351
    Chase0351
    Limiting players to one proc set at a time feels a little arbitrary, and it would force ZOS to draw a line between proc sets and non-proc sets. That prospect concerns me.

    @MurderMostFoul You lost me again bro. I'm gonna need you to explain this statement for me please. Sorry for being slow, but it just doesn't make sense to me. With that train of thought one could make the same argument for not being able to stack mythic items together like wearing ring of the pale order at the same time as malacath. Why not just wear all of them?

    Besides, lines always have to be drawn. They draw lines every time they nerf one thing and buff another, no? Nerfing dk wings drew a line in the sand catering to ranged builds, imho. But, we adapt and overcome.

    Also, not only do I think they should limit procs sets to 1 worn set at a time but I also think they should heavily nerf the damage output that they currently do. I'm definitely not seeing the <1k proc damage that you are, which tells me either misinformation or the system is broken. At a minimum, on a bad player they still put out >6k on most procs.
  • MurderMostFoul
    MurderMostFoul
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    Chase0351 wrote: »
    Limiting players to one proc set at a time feels a little arbitrary, and it would force ZOS to draw a line between proc sets and non-proc sets. That prospect concerns me.

    @MurderMostFoul You lost me again bro. I'm gonna need you to explain this statement for me please. Sorry for being slow, but it just doesn't make sense to me. With that train of thought one could make the same argument for not being able to stack mythic items together like wearing ring of the pale order at the same time as malacath. Why not just wear all of them?

    Besides, lines always have to be drawn. They draw lines every time they nerf one thing and buff another, no? Nerfing dk wings drew a line in the sand catering to ranged builds, imho. But, we adapt and overcome.

    Also, not only do I think they should limit procs sets to 1 worn set at a time but I also think they should heavily nerf the damage output that they currently do. I'm definitely not seeing the <1k proc damage that you are, which tells me either misinformation or the system is broken. At a minimum, on a bad player they still put out >6k on most procs.

    I said <1k "DPS" (9k hunters Venom proc/10 secs), that's why a hot like vigor is a strong counter.

    Mythics already are a well defined subgroup and hence the line drawing there requires zero subjectivity. My concern arises with how ZOS has defined proc sets already with no proc Cyro. Their definition of proc is extremely broad there. For all we know, if they adopt your one proc set change, we'd no longer be able to equip Blood Spawn and New Moons at the same time.
    “There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.”
  • Urzigurumash
    Urzigurumash
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Chase0351 wrote: »
    And I like some sets like bloodspawn, clever alchemist and 7th legion but I would gladly watch them go if that meant getting rid of the real problem sets.

    Wouldn't you agree, looking over all the years if you've played that long, that Bloodspawn is tied with Troll King as the all time number 1 "crutch / carry" proc set? They were both toned down substantially within the last year or so, being maybe the third or fourth nerf to Troll King, but their functionality hasn't changed at all, and for years, unquestionably, both of these sets qualified as "problem sets" in the way you mean.

    With that in mind, from my view, the only problem is the numerical imbalance on some of these sets. Whatever the other part of the proc that bothers you is, there's something else in this game that isn't a proc set that does the exact same thing. While almost all of us in these threads agree it would be better if damage procs scaled off Weapon/Spell Damage, the fact is Poisons, Enchantments, and Siege still do not. Yes, I know, Zaan's does more damage than a Flame Glyph. Refer to the first sentence in this paragraph.

    Proc sets may relieve some of the necessity of manual activation of skills, but they don't preclude the manual activation of skills. This isn't an FPS, and this isn't a fighting game. Wouldn't you agree that complicated itemization is an essential element of this game that separates it from FPS and fighting games? If you want the utmost test of skill, in the sense of manual dexterity combined with perception, try Darts, Ping-Pong, and Billiards, and then when you come back to ESO think about what it is in this game that makes you want to play it over Darts or Ping-Pong. It's more fun, that's why. We all play this game for fun, above all else.

    I'm only after balance in the truest sense, not submission to some revolutionary moral crusade against a traditional part of this game (at least on Xbox) on account of the estimation of a few as to the meaning of skill, without regard to the masses sense of fun. Of course, the way we use the word "skill" in Germanic languages isn't limited to just manual dexterity and perception. In fact, I suspect Noah Webster would suggest this sense of "manual dexterity and perception" has nothing whatsoever to do with skill, and is instead "ability". By one definition, skills are learned, abilities are innate. If you're interested in this pedantry read through the meaning of all the descendant words:

    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/skiljaną
    Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast
  • Urzigurumash
    Urzigurumash
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Otherwise you make plenty of good points when you get into specifics. I was on here weeks or months ago amidst the numerous cries to sunder the relationship of Malacath and Procs that if that were done, wouldn't everybody be in Hunter's Venom and Caluurion's, since people are using those proc sets as much as any other and they can't be used with Malacath? A rhetorical question, obviously we now know that for the time being, there are only two options: All Procs Enabled, or No Sets which do Math Enabled. Some of us find the latter option more undesirable than dying to Zaan's, however obnoxious it is. This set still gets me good, always has, but I'm a Heavy DK Slug. Before Zaan's, and even now, Radiant Oppression is absolutely my kryptonite.

    And of course, there are larger debates out there than whether proc sets should or shouldn't exist. I glean you're also a Heavy armor-using DK. Our interests are probably much more aligned than they would appear in the context of this particular debate.

    Edited by Urzigurumash on April 5, 2021 4:10PM
    Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast
  • Chase0351
    Chase0351
    For all we know, if they adopt your one proc set change, we'd no longer be able to equip Blood Spawn and New Moons at the same time.

    What's wrong with that? Life's all about choices. You can choose to go more offensive with new moon or more defensive with bloodspawn, which can still be interpreted as offensive with the ulti generation you get from bloodspawn. You shouldn't have the option to go both. Besides, you only use selene's or guardian, right?
    My concern arises with how ZOS has defined proc sets already with no proc Cyro. Their definition of proc is extremely broad there.

    A big portion of the player base really enjoys the "broad definition" that ZOS defined for proc sets this patch in cyrodiil. In case you don't know, anytime a set sends a check back to the server to see if a condition has been met that is defined as a proc.
    I said <1k "DPS" (9k hunters Venom proc/10 secs), that's why a hot like vigor is a strong counter.

    Pretty sure it's not 1k dps bud. We're talking about burst damage not parsing on a 3mil target skeleton... When all of that burst hits around the same time it's not 1k dps. It's actually closer to what it really hit for on the recap. That's how burst damage works... Just sayin', try not use misinformation in this discussion please. Let's keep it honest.

    @MurderMostFoul seeing as how your a vet high MMR solo que bg player, I'm quite certain you could manage with only one proc set on at a time. I'm not even good at this game and I do fine with zero proc sets equipped. Besides the balance would primarily affect the general population and not the elite's like yourself. Heck, a change like what I am proposing might shake up the rankings a bit, who knows(I think so)? Maybe my theory on proc sets carrying players through content could be true for some even on the leaderboards(I think so).

    Lastly, eliminating or at least limiting proc sets would actually breathe fresh air into theory crafting because it would change the game and force everyone to adapt in order to overcome. Sounds like it could be a good thing.
  • MurderMostFoul
    MurderMostFoul
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Chase0351 wrote: »
    Life's all about choices.

    Agreed, that's why I want a lot of interesting choices when it comes to equipment for my characters. I generally like BGs more than cyro, and more so now that the choices there are so limited.
    Chase0351 wrote: »
    Besides, you only use selene's or guardian, right?

    Well I also use Balorgh and Blood Spawn on my other characters, but I thought we were only talking about damage and healing proc sets, not stat proc sets. I personally don't have a problem with stat procs.
    I said <1k "DPS" (9k hunters Venom proc/10 secs), that's why a hot like vigor is a strong counter.
    Chase0351 wrote: »
    Pretty sure it's not 1k dps bud. We're talking about burst damage not parsing on a 3mil target skeleton... When all of that burst hits around the same time it's not 1k dps. It's actually closer to what it really hit for on the recap. That's how burst damage works... Just sayin', try not use misinformation in this discussion please. Let's keep it honest.

    Hunters venom is a 10 second DOT:

    (5 items) Dealing Critical Damage inflicts Hunter's Venom on your enemy for 10 seconds, dealing 2241 Poison Damage to your target and enemies within 6 meters of them every 1 second.

    You said it read for 9K on your death recap. That makes perfect sense when factoring in battle spirit and resistances. You'll notice the x"#" on the death recap next to each entry. That's the number of instances the source did damage to you from a particular player. For hunters Venom, it reflects the number of seconds the dot was ticking. So,

    9K dmg / 10 sec = 900 dps < 1000 dps.

    If you are saying that Hunter's Venom dealt 9K damage to you in one second, either your game is broken or you are mistaken.



    “There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.”
  • Chase0351
    Chase0351
    Wouldn't you agree, looking over all the years if you've played that long, that Bloodspawn is tied with Troll King as the all time number 1 "crutch / carry" proc set? They were both toned down substantially within the last year or so, being maybe the third or fourth nerf to Troll King, but their functionality hasn't changed at all, and for years, unquestionably, both of these sets qualified as "problem sets" in the way you mean.
    Chase0351 wrote: »
    And I like some sets like bloodspawn, clever alchemist and 7th legion but I would gladly watch them go if that meant getting rid of the real problem sets.

    If they tossed it out tomorrow I wouldn't miss it at all. I don't use it now. Imo, it was just an example of something not quite as bad as culuurion's or crimson, but they're all crutches.
    With that in mind, from my view, the only problem is the numerical imbalance on some of these sets. Whatever the other part of the proc that bothers you is, there's something else in this game that isn't a proc set that does the exact same thing. While almost all of us in these threads agree it would be better if damage procs scaled off Weapon/Spell Damage, the fact is Poisons, Enchantments, and Siege still do not. Yes, I know, Zaan's does more damage than a Flame Glyph. Refer to the first sentence in this paragraph.

    I can agree with that, and like I said before, no proc should hit harder than an unbuffed light attack since the LA requires user activation and the proc was free.
    Proc sets may relieve some of the necessity of manual activation of skills, but they don't preclude the manual activation of skills. This isn't an FPS, and this isn't a fighting game. Wouldn't you agree that complicated itemization is an essential element of this game that separates it from FPS and fighting games? If you want the utmost test of skill, in the sense of manual dexterity combined with perception, try Darts, Ping-Pong, and Billiards, and then when you come back to ESO think about what it is in this game that makes you want to play it over Darts or Ping-Pong. It's more fun, that's why. We all play this game for fun, above all else.

    Exactly, and it's not fun for people to get cheesed down by someone abusing proc sets by stacking them. It's not really fun to get killed by them at all or to be in a long dragged out fight against a bad player that uses engine guardian or another healing/sustain proc set.
    I'm only after balance in the truest sense, not submission to some revolutionary moral crusade against a traditional part of this game (at least on Xbox) on account of the estimation of a few as to the meaning of skill, without regard to the masses sense of fun.

    Same here, I have played eso since 2015 and I come on here to unwind and enjoy myself. We have enough to worry in pvp combat with regards to trying to stay alive. Tbh the game is a bit ridiculous at times with all of the CC's and what not. Still it is overall fun and can be very rewarding at times to play. With that said, there's not much room for free damage from stacked proc sets when the combat mechanics in this game already throw a lot at you. That's not even considering lag or latency.
    Of course, the way we use the word "skill" in Germanic languages isn't limited to just manual dexterity and perception. In fact, I suspect Noah Webster would suggest this sense of "manual dexterity and perception" has nothing whatsoever to do with skill, and is instead "ability". By one definition, skills are learned, abilities are innate. If you're interested in this pedantry read through the meaning of all the descendant words:

    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/skiljaną

    So, the forest gump ping pong reference is not what I'm talking about when referring to skill within pvp combat in eso. Management. Management comes with time and experience. Staying calm under pressure is another skill which comes with time and experience. Mastering your class and the game's mechanics. You mentioned FPS(First person shooters), well, this is not call of duty. So, if you are looking for something that you can jump on quickly with a low skill cap and have fun playing then Call of Duty might be for you. ESO was never about any of that. The fun has always been there but other than that the similarities are gone. ESO has always required an investment of time and along the way you would inherently get the experience through wins and losses. Nowadays, since they've made ESO free to programs like xbox gamepass we are getting more of those CoD players with a low skill level and low comprehension for games like ESO, which is why the game has changed so much during that time and really, imho, brought down the overall player skill base. Like the old saying goes "it ain't what it used to be". And I'm not mad at ZOS or ESO about that, I get it, this is a business. My gripe is with the proc sets specifically. There's a lot of other things that are questionable in this game that I can deal with. But like someone said a few posts up, never give up and always seek balance within the game.

    @MurderMostFoul It seems like you want to keep things the way that they are, maybe for the sake of the leaderboards, I'm not sure. Otherwise, I cannot understand why someone like you who claims to dislike proc sets would be against limiting proc sets to one worn at a time.
    Edited by Chase0351 on April 5, 2021 5:08PM
  • Chase0351
    Chase0351
    Otherwise you make plenty of good points when you get into specifics. I was on here weeks or months ago amidst the numerous cries to sunder the relationship of Malacath and Procs that if that were done, wouldn't everybody be in Hunter's Venom and Caluurion's, since people are using those proc sets as much as any other and they can't be used with Malacath? A rhetorical question, obviously we now know that for the time being, there are only two options: All Procs Enabled, or No Sets which do Math Enabled. Some of us find the latter option more undesirable than dying to Zaan's, however obnoxious it is. This set still gets me good, always has, but I'm a Heavy DK Slug. Before Zaan's, and even now, Radiant Oppression is absolutely my kryptonite.

    Please don't think I'm trying to bait you or anything because I am just going off of what you have said within this discussion. You said previously that you don't use procs on your stamdk, so why would the latter option of removing all proc sets entirely be more undesirable than continuing to play with them in their current state? Wouldn't you rather see who is the better player without your opponent getting free damage dealt for them? You're the one that has to take it.. Your statement and pov don't make sense.
    And of course, there are larger debates out there than whether proc sets should or shouldn't exist. I glean you're also a Heavy armor-using DK. Our interests are probably much more aligned than they would appear in the context of this particular debate.

    I would agree that most of us have more in common than we do different. I was in 5H/2M armor up until this patch. Now that heavy armor takes extra damage from magic attacks it's not worth it since I get better results from 6M/1H on my stam dk. Of course, with all of the flak from the light armor wearers about medium not having any penalties that will probably get changed too so that if you have to fight within 8 meters of your target, ranged builds can just kite you while bunny hopping around and shield stacking until their proc sets nuke you down.... Oh, and while we're off topic, shield stacking is probably worse than heavy armor ever was. Like I said, there's a lot in this game to complain about if everyone wants to get petty. I just choose to take the good with the bad. Proc sets are just unacceptable in their current state and BIG changes need to happen, not small percentages. My forum account is brand new for a reason. Usually I don't waste my time coming on here because it ends up being a waste of time. However, regarding proc sets I had to make the exception in hopes that ZOS does the right thing for the overall integrity of pvp within ESO.

    Edited by Chase0351 on April 5, 2021 5:14PM
  • Urzigurumash
    Urzigurumash
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Chase0351 wrote: »
    If they tossed it out tomorrow I wouldn't miss it at all. I don't use it now. Imo, it was just an example of something not quite as bad as culuurion's or crimson, but they're all crutches.

    Tri-pots are the biggest crutches out there though, Hot Oils are the most OP thing in the world if you're as slick with them as I am (kidding), etc. Anyhow yes StamDK since Xbox Day 1 here too. Certainly we've played together or against each other before. Do you agree that, more than any nerf to Bloodspawn or Troll King, what's moved us away from these sets is the change to the cast time on D Swing? For me, that change, sometime after Murkmire I think, was the second big thing that changed us from a "Tank playing the part of DD" to a "DD with strong Tank characteristics", the first being the introduction of Venomous Claw and Noxious Breath. Of course originally Wrecking Blow was strong enough that's all we really needed, but for a while it was underpowered as a spammable, and so when the cast time was changed our main instrument of warfare suddenly became as effective as any, and it elevated the appeal of offensive stat sets and lessened our dependence on defensive proc sets. In my experience, anyhow.

    Chase0351 wrote: »
    I can agree with that, and like I said before, no proc should hit harder than an unbuffed light attack since the LA requires user activation and the proc was free.

    Like about the same DPS you mean as if you were doing an ok job of LA weaving, taking into account the conditionality of the proc? That might be about right, I'm not sure what the right number is for these sorts of proc sets.

    Chase0351 wrote: »
    Exactly, and it's not fun for people to get cheesed down by someone abusing proc sets by stacking them. It's not really fun to get killed by them at all or to be in a long dragged out fight against a bad player that uses engine guardian or another healing/sustain proc set.

    Understood and agreed, but on the other hand, VD helps change the landscape of Cyrodiil in a favorable way, and besides VD many other proc sets help elevate the complexity of the battlespace. Proc sets open up more niche, specialist roles that can be used to address particular and exceptional problems. The theory-crafting aspect is only one part of the fun, it's also about the tactical/operational possibilities. In my opinion. Similar to the unscaled / free damage from Siege.

    Chase0351 wrote: »
    Same here, I have played eso since 2015 and I come on here to unwind and enjoy myself. We have enough to worry in pvp combat with regards to trying to stay alive. Tbh the game is a bit ridiculous at times with all of the CC's and what not. Still it is overall fun and can be very rewarding at times to play. With that said, there's not much room for free damage from stacked proc sets when the combat mechanics in this game already throw a lot at you. That's not even considering lag or latency.

    Sure, I'd go back to the "roughly the same DPS as moderately performed light attack weaving" idea. I don't even really know how much DPS Relequen's does, I don't PvE much, but something like that be a good benchmark in general

    Chase0351 wrote: »
    So, the forest gump ping pong reference is not what I'm talking about when referring to skill within pvp combat in eso. Management. Management comes with time and experience.

    Staying calm under pressure is another skill which comes with time and experience. Mastering your class and the game's mechanics. You mentioned FPS(First person shooters), well, this is not call of duty. So, if you are looking for something that you can jump on quickly with a low skill cap and have fun playing then Call of Duty might be for you. ESO was never about any of that. The fun has always been there but other than that the similarities are gone. ESO has always required an investment of time and along the way you would inherently get the experience through wins and losses. Nowadays, since they've made ESO free to programs like xbox gamepass we are getting more of those CoD players with a low skill level and low comprehension for games like ESO, which is why the game has changed so much during that time and really, imho, brought down the overall player skill base. Like the old saying goes "it ain't what it used to be". And I'm not mad at ZOS or ESO about that, I get it, this is a business. My gripe is with the proc sets specifically. There's a lot of other things that are questionable in this game that I can deal with. But like someone said a few posts up, never give up and always seek balance within the game.

    I can completely agree with almost every word of that, but again I'll refer to the current form of Queen's Elegance as a set which can reward the more knowledgeable and more skilled. In my opinion:

    Spatial awareness and reaction time: FPS

    Manual dexterity in executing character actions: Fighting Games

    Acuity in managing timing of game mechanics: Real-time Strategy Games

    Optimization of mathematical efficiency: Turn-based Strategy Games

    A sense of wonder and power: Fantasy RPGs

    ESO: a combination of all of these elements for the ultimate MMO Action RPG experience

    Chase0351 wrote: »
    Please don't think I'm trying to bait you or anything because I am just going off of what you have said within this discussion. You said previously that you don't use procs on your stamdk, so why would the latter option of removing all proc sets entirely be more undesirable than continuing to play with them in their current state? Wouldn't you rather see who is the better player without your opponent getting free damage dealt for them? You're the one that has to take it.. Your statement and pov don't make sense.

    Well I do often use proc sets, I won't shy from that, but yes, I would like to see how things are without procs, and I'm doing so now in Cyrodiil and will until June, at which point I look forward to having the full array of my old tricks back. Besides these whimsical tricks, I don't notice a significant change in my sense of relative strength in No Proc Cyro. When you take all the proc sets out of the equation I feel more or less about equally effective - obviously some particular 1v1 disparities become more evident but combat shouldn't be entirely balanced around 1v1. In small group combat, the thing I play mostly and where I think StamDK has always done the best, I'm more or less using the exact same skills and playstyle and fulfilling the exact same role at the same level of effectiveness as in Cyrodiil with procs. More or less.

    Chase0351 wrote: »
    I would agree that most of us have more in common than we do different. I was in 5H/2M armor up until this patch. Now that heavy armor takes extra damage from magic attacks it's not worth it since I get better results from 6M/1H on my stam dk. Of course, with all of the flak from the light armor wearers about medium not having any penalties that will probably get changed too so that if you have to fight within 8 meters of your target, ranged builds can just kite you while bunny hopping around and shield stacking until their proc sets nuke you down.... Oh, and while we're off topic, shield stacking is probably worse than heavy armor ever was. Like I said, there's a lot in this game to complain about if everyone wants to get petty. I just choose to take the good with the bad. Proc sets are just unacceptable in their current state and BIG changes need to happen, not small percentages. My forum account is brand new for a reason. Usually I don't waste my time coming on here because it ends up being a waste of time. However, regarding proc sets I had to make the exception in hopes that ZOS does the right thing for the overall integrity of pvp within ESO.

    I've written a good amount on this forum about my philosophy regarding whether a Heavy Armor DD is a thing which should exist or not, many others are of the feeling that Heavy Armor = Tank = purely Defensive Role. Outside of playing with a healer or during the OP Heals meta post-Dragonhold pre-Greymoor, or whenever, I've always been a 5 Heavy player too but I've mostly settled on a 4/3 split either 4h or 4m, and I'll probably stay there. 5 Impen, 2 Well-fitted, Sturdy shield. I'll probably stay with that too.

    Totally understood about your view. I agree with many of your points and of course with the overall gist that proc sets shouldn't dominate combat, not any type of proc sets.

    My essential feeling regarding the matter is "more fantasy, less reality". When I explore some of the ideas behind whether the fantasy proc sets provide precludes combat being balanced and enjoyable, I find some ontological issues, and I think in the long view it's rather the opposite, that Sets which do Math (because within this sort of very generalized discussion they cannot be separated from each other) could and should be used resolve numerous imbalances and increase the level of enjoyment, which, depending on particularities, I think they often have.

    I don't think it's my bias in favor of crab legs popping out of me while I swing my maul around in circles, but, it could be.
    Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast
  • Chase0351
    Chase0351
    @MurderMostFoul on a side
    Chase0351 wrote: »
    If they tossed it out tomorrow I wouldn't miss it at all. I don't use it now. Imo, it was just an example of something not quite as bad as culuurion's or crimson, but they're all crutches.

    Tri-pots are the biggest crutches out there though, Hot Oils are the most OP thing in the world if you're as slick with them as I am (kidding), etc. Anyhow yes StamDK since Xbox Day 1 here too. Certainly we've played together or against each other before. Do you agree that, more than any nerf to Bloodspawn or Troll King, what's moved us away from these sets is the change to the cast time on D Swing? For me, that change, sometime after Murkmire I think, was the second big thing that changed us from a "Tank playing the part of DD" to a "DD with strong Tank characteristics", the first being the introduction of Venomous Claw and Noxious Breath. Of course originally Wrecking Blow was strong enough that's all we really needed, but for a while it was underpowered as a spammable, and so when the cast time was changed our main instrument of warfare suddenly became as effective as any, and it elevated the appeal of offensive stat sets and lessened our dependence on defensive proc sets. In my experience, anyhow.

    Chase0351 wrote: »
    I can agree with that, and like I said before, no proc should hit harder than an unbuffed light attack since the LA requires user activation and the proc was free.

    Like about the same DPS you mean as if you were doing an ok job of LA weaving, taking into account the conditionality of the proc? That might be about right, I'm not sure what the right number is for these sorts of proc sets.

    Chase0351 wrote: »
    Exactly, and it's not fun for people to get cheesed down by someone abusing proc sets by stacking them. It's not really fun to get killed by them at all or to be in a long dragged out fight against a bad player that uses engine guardian or another healing/sustain proc set.

    Understood and agreed, but on the other hand, VD helps change the landscape of Cyrodiil in a favorable way, and besides VD many other proc sets help elevate the complexity of the battlespace. Proc sets open up more niche, specialist roles that can be used to address particular and exceptional problems. The theory-crafting aspect is only one part of the fun, it's also about the tactical/operational possibilities. In my opinion. Similar to the unscaled / free damage from Siege.

    Chase0351 wrote: »
    Same here, I have played eso since 2015 and I come on here to unwind and enjoy myself. We have enough to worry in pvp combat with regards to trying to stay alive. Tbh the game is a bit ridiculous at times with all of the CC's and what not. Still it is overall fun and can be very rewarding at times to play. With that said, there's not much room for free damage from stacked proc sets when the combat mechanics in this game already throw a lot at you. That's not even considering lag or latency.

    Sure, I'd go back to the "roughly the same DPS as moderately performed light attack weaving" idea. I don't even really know how much DPS Relequen's does, I don't PvE much, but something like that be a good benchmark in general

    Chase0351 wrote: »
    So, the forest gump ping pong reference is not what I'm talking about when referring to skill within pvp combat in eso. Management. Management comes with time and experience.

    Staying calm under pressure is another skill which comes with time and experience. Mastering your class and the game's mechanics. You mentioned FPS(First person shooters), well, this is not call of duty. So, if you are looking for something that you can jump on quickly with a low skill cap and have fun playing then Call of Duty might be for you. ESO was never about any of that. The fun has always been there but other than that the similarities are gone. ESO has always required an investment of time and along the way you would inherently get the experience through wins and losses. Nowadays, since they've made ESO free to programs like xbox gamepass we are getting more of those CoD players with a low skill level and low comprehension for games like ESO, which is why the game has changed so much during that time and really, imho, brought down the overall player skill base. Like the old saying goes "it ain't what it used to be". And I'm not mad at ZOS or ESO about that, I get it, this is a business. My gripe is with the proc sets specifically. There's a lot of other things that are questionable in this game that I can deal with. But like someone said a few posts up, never give up and always seek balance within the game.

    I can completely agree with almost every word of that, but again I'll refer to the current form of Queen's Elegance as a set which can reward the more knowledgeable and more skilled. In my opinion:

    Spatial awareness and reaction time: FPS

    Manual dexterity in executing character actions: Fighting Games

    Acuity in managing timing of game mechanics: Real-time Strategy Games

    Optimization of mathematical efficiency: Turn-based Strategy Games

    A sense of wonder and power: Fantasy RPGs

    ESO: a combination of all of these elements for the ultimate MMO Action RPG experience

    Chase0351 wrote: »
    Please don't think I'm trying to bait you or anything because I am just going off of what you have said within this discussion. You said previously that you don't use procs on your stamdk, so why would the latter option of removing all proc sets entirely be more undesirable than continuing to play with them in their current state? Wouldn't you rather see who is the better player without your opponent getting free damage dealt for them? You're the one that has to take it.. Your statement and pov don't make sense.

    Well I do often use proc sets, I won't shy from that, but yes, I would like to see how things are without procs, and I'm doing so now in Cyrodiil and will until June, at which point I look forward to having the full array of my old tricks back. Besides these whimsical tricks, I don't notice a significant change in my sense of relative strength in No Proc Cyro. When you take all the proc sets out of the equation I feel more or less about equally effective - obviously some particular 1v1 disparities become more evident but combat shouldn't be entirely balanced around 1v1. In small group combat, the thing I play mostly and where I think StamDK has always done the best, I'm more or less using the exact same skills and playstyle and fulfilling the exact same role at the same level of effectiveness as in Cyrodiil with procs. More or less.

    Chase0351 wrote: »
    I would agree that most of us have more in common than we do different. I was in 5H/2M armor up until this patch. Now that heavy armor takes extra damage from magic attacks it's not worth it since I get better results from 6M/1H on my stam dk. Of course, with all of the flak from the light armor wearers about medium not having any penalties that will probably get changed too so that if you have to fight within 8 meters of your target, ranged builds can just kite you while bunny hopping around and shield stacking until their proc sets nuke you down.... Oh, and while we're off topic, shield stacking is probably worse than heavy armor ever was. Like I said, there's a lot in this game to complain about if everyone wants to get petty. I just choose to take the good with the bad. Proc sets are just unacceptable in their current state and BIG changes need to happen, not small percentages. My forum account is brand new for a reason. Usually I don't waste my time coming on here because it ends up being a waste of time. However, regarding proc sets I had to make the exception in hopes that ZOS does the right thing for the overall integrity of pvp within ESO.

    I've written a good amount on this forum about my philosophy regarding whether a Heavy Armor DD is a thing which should exist or not, many others are of the feeling that Heavy Armor = Tank = purely Defensive Role. Outside of playing with a healer or during the OP Heals meta post-Dragonhold pre-Greymoor, or whenever, I've always been a 5 Heavy player too but I've mostly settled on a 4/3 split either 4h or 4m, and I'll probably stay there. 5 Impen, 2 Well-fitted, Sturdy shield. I'll probably stay with that too.

    Totally understood about your view. I agree with many of your points and of course with the overall gist that proc sets shouldn't dominate combat, not any type of proc sets.

    My essential feeling regarding the matter is "more fantasy, less reality". When I explore some of the ideas behind whether the fantasy proc sets provide precludes combat being balanced and enjoyable, I find some ontological issues, and I think in the long view it's rather the opposite, that Sets which do Math (because within this sort of very generalized discussion they cannot be separated from each other) could and should be used resolve numerous imbalances and increase the level of enjoyment, which, depending on particularities, I think they often have.

    I don't think it's my bias in favor of crab legs popping out of me while I swing my maul around in circles, but, it could be.

    I agree with a lot of what you've said here. Like I said many times over throughout this discussion: I know proc sets most likely will not be completely removed. Heck there's procs in some of the racial passives(breton). All I'm proposing is that they be, for lack of a better word, nerfed, heavily. IMHO, any damage from a proc set should never hit harder than that users light attack would, unbuffed. And just so we're clear about what I mean, I'm saying just a plain single light attack, no weaving or anything. Proc damage should never do more damage than one's own light attack would on any target. That means on average in no-cp bg's, 1-2k max damage. DOT procs should not hit harder than trash dot poisons(the ones you get from dungeons and overland) one can equip in place of their weapon enchant. If one decides to wear a proc set they may only wear one at a time, which gives them the option to also wear one mythic item in conjunction with one proc set(plenty of flavor for your build). Proc sets should never outshine stat based sets and vice versa. It should boil down to how you want to customize your build but there should never be one clear and obvious choice aka an imbalance. As of right now proc sets obviously out perform stat based sets, which is wrong.

    And don't listen to the hype, proc sets are still over performing at the moment in battlegrounds. I'm not feeling sorry for myself because I died a few times. No, I'm trying to hold everyone accountable. If you're a good player then you should have no problem performing the same with procs dialed way down. If you heavily relied on them as a big part of your performance it should be brought to the light. Remember, even though we are here to have fun pvp is still about competitive skill based gameplay. If you want something laid back and non competitive go farm mats or run through fungal grotto 1 on normal with 4 man group 1000+cp, since that's solo content anyways. If you want to pvp, however, you better "lace up your boots" and bring your best game. Otherwise, you might as well not get mad at those who cheat since their mentality is the same as other players that use exploiter builds: win by any means necessary. Where's the "sportsmanship" at? Those kinds of players are too toxic to know what that is.

    Think about this, they just nerfed some of the racial passives to bring them inline with the others basically so there will be no more BiS race for any class. And IMHO they did pretty well. Now you can pretty much play any class with any race and be about as viable as the next combo of class/race. It has become a matter of choice: More offensive or defensive? More stats for health, stam or magicka? But all of the races are about the same now. That should be the goal when comparing procs vs stat based sets, there should be no advantage over the other.
    Edited by Chase0351 on April 5, 2021 9:10PM
  • Urzigurumash
    Urzigurumash
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    Right, I agree with almost all of your points, but I believe proc sets should, ideally, be an option in PvP, for all of the reasons I've explained.

    Of course I agree making PvP as competitive as possible is what's best.

    In games some of us aren't motivated to "win by any means necessary" - but are burdened with the grim condition of championship that "victory needs no excuse, and defeat allows none".
    Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast
  • Chase0351
    Chase0351
    In games some of us aren't motivated to "win by any means necessary" - but are burdened with the grim condition of championship that "victory needs no excuse, and defeat allows none".

    Well said.
  • Qbiken
    Qbiken
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    At this point I'm way beyond carrying what people use in BG's. You're free to equip and stack your own procs. Let go of that self applied "honor/code" or whatever you like to call it. No one will thank you for it or think you're a better player. Makes the game a lot easier and chill to play in my experience (but each to their own)

    The problem with BG's is that ZOS is too lazy or unwilling to fix/implement:

    * A proper ranking system. Either rework or remove the current MMR system. It serves no purpose anyway other than making it miserable for the ones playing the most BG's. The more BG's I play the longer I've to wait for a game and the more likely I'm to fight the same 20 people in every game. What kind of PvP mode punishes the player for playing it?
    The current leaderboards for BG's are completely useless since they don't showcase skill or how good you/your team plays and why have a leaderboard when the placement doesn't matter at all?

    * Custom lobbies: Give people the ability to create custom lobbies where we can choose map and game mode. Obviously no rewards or anything associated with this but just something for the community that wanna organise premade fights without waiting 15+ min for a game.
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