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Why Altmer are by FAR the greatest threat to Nirn

  • psychotrip
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    Lugaldu wrote: »
    psychotrip wrote: »
    As for why you like the Altmer, I dont want to take this away from you, but it seems like a pretty limited appeal. I just wish there was more to them than just racist perfectionists.

    A culture can be more than 2 things. Beyond those 2 things, what is Altmeri culture even about? No, seriously please tell me because I dont even know whats canon anymore. Do we even know why their leaders are called kinlords? Do kinships even still exist?


    But are they really perfectionists at all? Their base game clothes are sloppily stiched together messes, they're surrounded by crumbling ruins and derelict roads, and many other races are far more powerful and accomplished by comparison. So what good is their perfectionism if it doesnt amount to anything?


    No offense, but I didn't´said that the shown stuff can't be realistically implemented (even when that mershark/ wereshark is not my thing).
    The base game presentation of the Altmer culture is indeed not really amazing, that's true, but there also all other cultures were represented less elaborated in comparison to later. That picture was somehow corrected with Summerset. Prefectionism does not stand alone, it is based e.g. on historical and genealogical backgrounds. When you talk about perfectionism, it is only a single aspect, but it is linked to everything else.


    So can you tell me what the "everything else" is then? I've been checked out since shortly after Summerset. What else is there to Altmeri culture, or society? It all just seems so surface level to me. Of course they care about geneologies. They're high elves. What sets them apart as a people? Both in-universe and as high elves in general.

    Sorry to keep posting but I'm on mobile and its hard to merge everything, especially when everyone keeps posting stuff I really want to respond to :P
    Edited by psychotrip on February 7, 2021 3:40PM
    No one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".

    We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.
  • psychotrip
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    psychotrip wrote: »
    I like the Altmer because their cultural emphasis on perfection means they then have to grapple with living in a decidedly imperfect world, and what happens when they themselves can't live up to that perfect ideal leads them down some incredibly warped paths as individuals and as a society.

    We can reject that element of what's going on with the Altmer...or lean into it. That shoddy-looking mass produced armor we see in Auridon? That's being constructed for the Three Banners War because taking the time to lovingly craft the detailed armor we see on the home guard Divine Prosecution would take too long to meet the demands of war. What do the Altmer think of it? Some, like Ayrenn, are willing to sacrifice perfection and heritage alike in order to create that bright new world she hopes for. Other Altmer are horrified and see the changes around them as forsaking their heritage and the perfectionism that is their worth in the world as the descendents of the Aedra. What do you do, as an Altmer? Stay out of the war? Fight for your queen? Back the Veiled Heritance? Seek alaxon and curse the nebarra under your breath for bringing chaos to the Isles?

    The way I see it, the altmer seek perfection, but rarely find it. They, like every race in Tamriel, find themselves living in the cities built in past centuries, facing crisises that they feel unprepared to deal with, and forced to live in an imperfect world that tests and tries their ideals.


    And while the many pictures on this thread present a different vision for the Altmer, I like the Gothic architecture. Its clean, beautiful even in its age, and quite far advanced from what we've seen out of Tamriel's human cultures. I would have loved to see ZOS push the design of Summerset a little farther, but I'm satisfied with what we got giving the limitations of a single Chapter zone. (Mods are a labor of love. Their designs are cool, but much like Skywind, I'll take an actual playable game over gorgeous design work that's never realized.)

    I know there's always a thread of "Altmer exceptionalism" present in fan discussions about them. How could it be any different when the Altmer themselves believe so firmly in their own exceptionality? However, I do think its important to keep in mind that this is a game, that Altmer are one choice of nine playable races, and that for all the chest-beating, congratulatory lauding of Altmer prowess that the OP does, the Altmer are never that much better than a player character of a different race. That's what ZOS - and arguably Bethesda too - gives us. Altmer who, in practice and gameplay, aren't that much more powerful or effective in a crisis than any other race or nation.

    This has nothing to do with exceptionalism. Thats always beena red herring used by Zenimax themselves.

    No one is asking the high elves to be OP. How can we even be having this conversation with how mary-sueish the Dunmer have become? Its totally disingenuous to act like thats the issue here.

    This is about how they took a genuinely unique group of people and turned them into generic fancy elves living in gothic disneyland.

    This is about the INCONSISTENCY of a land that Tiber Septim needed a giant robot god to defeat being about as impressive as a renaissance faire.

    Its about how normal and human the Altmer seem when standing next to the dunmer or bosmer, who feel like an entirely separate species now. Its about how the entire point of the Altmer was that they were the elfiest elves of all and the LEAST recognizably human by far.

    Its about how Zenimax cherry picks certain bits of lore, like how imperial architecture is BASED on Altmeri PRINCIPLES (like modern math and geometry)and used that as an excuse for why their cities just look like bigger versions of human cities.

    Its about how Zenimax said that the Elder Scrolls is "very mundane at its heart" and that the Altmer cant be as fantastical as they described, when the reality is that Zenimax and Bethesda have slowly been "normalizing" and toning down ALL the races of Tamriel so now faithful Altmer would SEEM OP by comparison.

    They threw the entire universe under the bus just to justify why they scrapped everything they worked on for the Altmer halfway through development.

    This is about the Altmer's entire culture being wittled down into a caricature of itself. Saying the Altmer care about perfection is a joke at this point. They're the most ancient and "mysterious" civilization in Tamriel, and all they have is some second rate disneyland to show for it.

    So, to be precise: its not about exceptionalism. Its about ZOS completely changing them from the ground up and leaving only their most shallow, generic traits intact, leaving us with a race that feels unjustly arrogant and vastly underdeveloped.

    Hmm. Seems like I hit a nerve.

    I'll be blunt. That litany of complaints above is what its about for you.Those are your gripes with ZOS and Bethesda.

    Those are not my gripes. You explaining your gripes (again) will not make them my gripes, nor make me desire to discuss them (again, thinking of a long ago thread on Altmer vs Dunmer architecture.)

    Yes, I dare to like the Altmer in their current state while you are unsatisfied. I wish you the best at convincing ZOS and Bethesda to give you what you want, but I'm not interested in debating the litany of complaints thrown in my face because I dare like the Altmer as they are and I dare see the ways ZOS did portray their perfectionism and struggle in an imperfect world as something more than the "joke" you say it is. I like different things than you. Deal with it.


    As for exceptionalism, I meant what I said. A lot of players who are fans of the Altmer demonstrate a desire for Altmer expectionalism. Whether that's the OP lauding Altmer accomplishments as better than all other races (many of which are not borne out in gameplay or lore) or players frustrated that racial passive changes mean that Altmer are not always the be-all, end-all of magicka combat, forever, amen. Its something I've noted on the forums in general, not just on this thread.

    If that's not what you were asking for, then I'm not talking about you.

    Exceptionalism is something that only works in unseen lore events or in an "enemy" faction. Making one player race or nation exceptional in a setting where all of them need to coexist on more or less equal footing as player options is just bad game balance. That's why the lore may paint the Altmer as a glorious Master Race - and certainly their own propaganda does - but in actual gameplay, they aren't that much more effective in a crisis than any other nation in Tamriel. I think its telling that the one time the Altmer are noticeably more powerful in gameplay- the Great War and following Skyrim- they are the "enemy faction" of the Thalmor.

    So when people like the OP declare that the Altmer should be easily dominating Tamriel (if not for those pesky writers, natch) or players whine that Altmer passives mean they aren't the meta for everything spellcasting, that's the Altmer exceptionalism coming to the fore.

    For obvious reasons of gameplay balance and the desire to not have their game world smashed to flinders by a faction of overpowered wizards, ZOS and Bethesda are not going to give into that strain of exceptionalism that many Altmer fans want.

    It makes me sad that there's apparently no middle ground between super OP space elves and humans with a minor mutation. And apparently Zenimax scrapping the majority of their own lore is the only alternative to...giving in? I'm sorry I didnt really follow that last line of logic.

    Yes, all of this stuff has to do with my own complaints. I didnt think this was in dispute.

    I'm not saying you cant like them as they are. I'm saying that threads like these are the consequence. Why do you think people like the OP view the Altmer the way they do? Everyone is cringing at this thread's first post but not asking WHY this keeps happening. It's the result of a decade of lazy writing for a race that's been relegated as "the snobby villains" for convenience sake.

    When you design a race like the modern Altmer, all most people will see are shallow, arrogant racists. I'm merely saying it didnt have to be this way, but this is what the majority wanted.

    Edit: Also, I wasnt aware we had ever interacted before, though that would explain the discourse so far. As you can likely tell, I dont come here often so I tend to lose track of who I talk to! Sorry about that!
    Edited by psychotrip on February 7, 2021 6:27PM
    No one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".

    We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.
  • VaranisArano
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    psychotrip wrote: »
    psychotrip wrote: »
    I like the Altmer because their cultural emphasis on perfection means they then have to grapple with living in a decidedly imperfect world, and what happens when they themselves can't live up to that perfect ideal leads them down some incredibly warped paths as individuals and as a society.

    We can reject that element of what's going on with the Altmer...or lean into it. That shoddy-looking mass produced armor we see in Auridon? That's being constructed for the Three Banners War because taking the time to lovingly craft the detailed armor we see on the home guard Divine Prosecution would take too long to meet the demands of war. What do the Altmer think of it? Some, like Ayrenn, are willing to sacrifice perfection and heritage alike in order to create that bright new world she hopes for. Other Altmer are horrified and see the changes around them as forsaking their heritage and the perfectionism that is their worth in the world as the descendents of the Aedra. What do you do, as an Altmer? Stay out of the war? Fight for your queen? Back the Veiled Heritance? Seek alaxon and curse the nebarra under your breath for bringing chaos to the Isles?

    The way I see it, the altmer seek perfection, but rarely find it. They, like every race in Tamriel, find themselves living in the cities built in past centuries, facing crisises that they feel unprepared to deal with, and forced to live in an imperfect world that tests and tries their ideals.


    And while the many pictures on this thread present a different vision for the Altmer, I like the Gothic architecture. Its clean, beautiful even in its age, and quite far advanced from what we've seen out of Tamriel's human cultures. I would have loved to see ZOS push the design of Summerset a little farther, but I'm satisfied with what we got giving the limitations of a single Chapter zone. (Mods are a labor of love. Their designs are cool, but much like Skywind, I'll take an actual playable game over gorgeous design work that's never realized.)

    I know there's always a thread of "Altmer exceptionalism" present in fan discussions about them. How could it be any different when the Altmer themselves believe so firmly in their own exceptionality? However, I do think its important to keep in mind that this is a game, that Altmer are one choice of nine playable races, and that for all the chest-beating, congratulatory lauding of Altmer prowess that the OP does, the Altmer are never that much better than a player character of a different race. That's what ZOS - and arguably Bethesda too - gives us. Altmer who, in practice and gameplay, aren't that much more powerful or effective in a crisis than any other race or nation.

    This has nothing to do with exceptionalism. Thats always beena red herring used by Zenimax themselves.

    No one is asking the high elves to be OP. How can we even be having this conversation with how mary-sueish the Dunmer have become? Its totally disingenuous to act like thats the issue here.

    This is about how they took a genuinely unique group of people and turned them into generic fancy elves living in gothic disneyland.

    This is about the INCONSISTENCY of a land that Tiber Septim needed a giant robot god to defeat being about as impressive as a renaissance faire.

    Its about how normal and human the Altmer seem when standing next to the dunmer or bosmer, who feel like an entirely separate species now. Its about how the entire point of the Altmer was that they were the elfiest elves of all and the LEAST recognizably human by far.

    Its about how Zenimax cherry picks certain bits of lore, like how imperial architecture is BASED on Altmeri PRINCIPLES (like modern math and geometry)and used that as an excuse for why their cities just look like bigger versions of human cities.

    Its about how Zenimax said that the Elder Scrolls is "very mundane at its heart" and that the Altmer cant be as fantastical as they described, when the reality is that Zenimax and Bethesda have slowly been "normalizing" and toning down ALL the races of Tamriel so now faithful Altmer would SEEM OP by comparison.

    They threw the entire universe under the bus just to justify why they scrapped everything they worked on for the Altmer halfway through development.

    This is about the Altmer's entire culture being wittled down into a caricature of itself. Saying the Altmer care about perfection is a joke at this point. They're the most ancient and "mysterious" civilization in Tamriel, and all they have is some second rate disneyland to show for it.

    So, to be precise: its not about exceptionalism. Its about ZOS completely changing them from the ground up and leaving only their most shallow, generic traits intact, leaving us with a race that feels unjustly arrogant and vastly underdeveloped.

    Hmm. Seems like I hit a nerve.

    I'll be blunt. That litany of complaints above is what its about for you.Those are your gripes with ZOS and Bethesda.

    Those are not my gripes. You explaining your gripes (again) will not make them my gripes, nor make me desire to discuss them (again, thinking of a long ago thread on Altmer vs Dunmer architecture.)

    Yes, I dare to like the Altmer in their current state while you are unsatisfied. I wish you the best at convincing ZOS and Bethesda to give you what you want, but I'm not interested in debating the litany of complaints thrown in my face because I dare like the Altmer as they are and I dare see the ways ZOS did portray their perfectionism and struggle in an imperfect world as something more than the "joke" you say it is. I like different things than you. Deal with it.


    As for exceptionalism, I meant what I said. A lot of players who are fans of the Altmer demonstrate a desire for Altmer expectionalism. Whether that's the OP lauding Altmer accomplishments as better than all other races (many of which are not borne out in gameplay or lore) or players frustrated that racial passive changes mean that Altmer are not always the be-all, end-all of magicka combat, forever, amen. Its something I've noted on the forums in general, not just on this thread.

    If that's not what you were asking for, then I'm not talking about you.

    Exceptionalism is something that only works in unseen lore events or in an "enemy" faction. Making one player race or nation exceptional in a setting where all of them need to coexist on more or less equal footing as player options is just bad game balance. That's why the lore may paint the Altmer as a glorious Master Race - and certainly their own propaganda does - but in actual gameplay, they aren't that much more effective in a crisis than any other nation in Tamriel. I think its telling that the one time the Altmer are noticeably more powerful in gameplay- the Great War and following Skyrim- they are the "enemy faction" of the Thalmor.

    So when people like the OP declare that the Altmer should be easily dominating Tamriel (if not for those pesky writers, natch) or players whine that Altmer passives mean they aren't the meta for everything spellcasting, that's the Altmer exceptionalism coming to the fore.

    For obvious reasons of gameplay balance and the desire to not have their game world smashed to flinders by a faction of overpowered wizards, ZOS and Bethesda are not going to give into that strain of exceptionalism that many Altmer fans want.

    It makes me sad to think that there's no middle ground between super OP space elves and humans with pointy ears, and that Zenimax scrapping the majority of their own lore is the only alternative to...giving in? I'm sorry I didnt really follow that last line of logic.

    Yes, all of this stuff has to do with my own complaints. I didnt think this was in dispute.

    I'm not saying you cant like them as they are. I'm saying that threads like these are the consequence. Why do you think people like the OP view the Altmer the way they do? Everyone is cringing at this thread's first post but not asking WHY this keeps happening. It's the result of a decade of lazy writing for a race that's been relegated as "the snobby villains" for convenience sake.

    When you design a race like the modern Altmer, all most people will see are shallow, arrogant racists. I'm merely saying it didnt have to be this way, but this is what the majority wanted.

    Edit: Also, I wasnt aware we had ever interacted before, though that would explain the discourse so far. As you can likely tell, I dont come here often so I tend to lose track of who I talk to! Sorry about that!

    Its all good. We had a great discussion last time, but I recall it ending on a similar note of "Hey, we like what we like, and those aren't quite the same thing." Which is fine! I wish you the best in getting what you want! I just don't feel like hashing it all out again. :)

    The way I see it, the way people like the OP and people who want overpowered Altmer gameplay options tend to take the lore on Altmer and run with it until the Altmer would be completely exceptional is a major part of why ZOS and Bethesda are so adamant about keeping the Altmer from being overpowered and high-magic. As I said, that exceptionalism unbalances game design unless the race/nation is the "bad guys".

    I'm quite sympathetic to you wanting them to get the Dunmer treatment, i.e. not overpowered, but certain made more interesting and treated with greater depth. My qualms, and I suspect the qualms of the developers as well, is that many players really seem to want the specific aspects of the Altmer lore that would be very overpowered. I mean, I look at the OP. If they were correct about the Psijic Order, then the whole Summerset chapter wouldn't happen and the Oblivion Crisis should have been stopped in their tracks. They, as with others, would make Altmer armies more powerful than any other, nevermind that's not what we see in the lore or in Cyrodiil gameplay. The Altmer Navy dominant over every other navy on the seas? Sure, that's why King Hidellith just wrecked most of his fleet off Pynadonea.

    So while there's probably a middle ground the Devlopers could find, there's also an element of "given an inch, they'll take a mile" going on with many Altmer fans. Glass roofs and fancy magical signage wouldn't have broken the Altmer. It would've been cool. Giving the Altmer a redone base game motif wouldn't have broken the Altmer, though in that case ZOS has solid reasons for not "fixing" motifs anymore. Whereas setting up the Altmer as incredible mages who see off daedric invasions without outside help and who's armies should easily beat off opponents with their superior magic and training is just unbalanced and in many ways, contrary to the lore we already had, much less the ESO base game and Summerset storylines.

    And the Developers and writers are writing for a video game. The gameplay we have right here, right now, and the designs they feel they can get done before the release date is always going to be paramount over concept art and lore concerns like "The Isles should require a Numidium to conquer them right now or else Tiber Septim will look stupid 300ish years after this game. What do you mean, the Sloads/Nocturnal can do it after only yoinking the Heart out of Crystal-like-Law?" The Devs and writers are concerned with the lore to an extent, but not to the point that they'll sacrifice gameplay balance or the stories they sunk money into developing.
  • Iccotak
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    @psychotrip

    much of the lore, that the fan art is based on, comes from games that took place in the 3rd and 4th era

    it is perfectly reasonable to say that Summerset could look drastically different in the 800-1000 years that have passed

    especially when considering that the Summerset we saw was an artificial perfection of the ruling hierarchy of that time and things have definitely changed for the Altmer since the 2nd Era.

    So I think it is ok to say that if we were to go there in the 4th era it is likely that the structures we see in ESO have been replaced after the destruction of the oblivion crisis by New Artisans with new ideas and plans for Summerset.
    Edited by Iccotak on February 7, 2021 9:05PM
  • psychotrip
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    Iccotak wrote: »
    @psychotrip

    much of the lore, that the fan art is based on, comes from games that took place in the 3rd and 4th era

    it is perfectly reasonable to say that Summerset could look drastically different in the 800-1000 years that have passed

    especially when considering that the Summerset we saw was an artificial perfection of the ruling hierarchy of that time and things have definitely changed for the Altmer since the 2nd Era.

    So I think it is ok to say that if we were to go there in the 4th era it is likely that the structures we see in ESO have been replaced after the destruction of the oblivion crisis by New Artisans with new ideas and plans for Summerset.

    I mean, maybe the second era is just a weird portion of history where entire races changed their culture, religion, art styles, environments etc. only to change them back later?

    I don't know. I think The Elder Scrolls is just a fundamentally different franchise now. The tone, lore, and themes have shifted in such a new direction. Its not all bad, either! Just not the direction I hoped the series would go. It happens!

    When they set a game in Summerset during the 4th era, it'll likely just be an expanded version of what ESO did. Probably more evil since the Dominion is the "evil empire" now. And while I'll personally hate it, I understand why many will love it.

    If only I loved gothic architecture as much as everyone else. Lol.
    Edited by psychotrip on February 8, 2021 12:39AM
    No one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".

    We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.
  • Iccotak
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    psychotrip wrote: »
    Iccotak wrote: »
    @psychotrip

    much of the lore, that the fan art is based on, comes from games that took place in the 3rd and 4th era

    it is perfectly reasonable to say that Summerset could look drastically different in the 800-1000 years that have passed

    especially when considering that the Summerset we saw was an artificial perfection of the ruling hierarchy of that time and things have definitely changed for the Altmer since the 2nd Era.

    So I think it is ok to say that if we were to go there in the 4th era it is likely that the structures we see in ESO have been replaced after the destruction of the oblivion crisis by New Artisans with new ideas and plans for Summerset.

    I mean, maybe the second era is just a weird portion of history where entire races changed their culture, religion, art styles, environments etc. only to change them back later?

    I don't know. I think The Elder Scrolls is just a fundamentally different franchise now. The tone, lore, and themes have shifted in such a new direction. Its not all bad, either! Just not the direction I hoped the series would go. It happens!

    When they set a game in Summerset during the 4th era, it'll likely just be an expanded version of what ESO did. Probably more evil since the Dominion is the "evil empire" now. And while I'll personally hate it, I understand why many will love it.

    If only I loved gothic architecture as much as everyone else. Lol.

    I mean look at Windhelm - looks very different but they made it work by the explanation that Windhelm was being rebuilt when we saw the throne room.

    So it is plausible that for the single player entry to really differentiate itself that we see a big change in architecture and overall island appearance as the Thalmor Dominion (as opposed to Aldmeri Dominion) would have a different vision for perfection.
  • Aristocles22
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    I think we're missing the real reason the Altmer are so dangerous. To sum it up briefly, their religion teaches them that the world of Nirn, linear time, and physical matter were a mistake, an idea which most other elves seem to follow. The Bosmer have taken to nature to adapt to this mistake, the Orsimer (Orcs) took to Malacath worship, the Chimer (who later turned into the Dunmer) followed some Daedric princes and later the tribunal, then the princes again and saw the world as a challenge, not as something to be gotten rid of.

    The Altmer believe that the world is evil and needs to be undone, and that humanity needs to be erased, along with the very idea of humanity. If they had their way, the Altmer would undo creation itself and not only would Nirn be destroyed, but the basic concepts which allow for life we know it would disappear, like ordered sequences of events. And the Altmer are close to accomplishing their goal as of the 4th era, if the Tower lore is true.

    If that's not a threat, I don't know what is.
    Edited by Aristocles22 on February 8, 2021 5:57AM
  • Vanya
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    Oh, my goodness.. OP, the very signature of yours stating you (that's you, yes? I don't see any quotes there) to be a member of royal family of Skyrim tells much about you and your post - [snip] But this is not even the thing. And the very question you have asked in the title, "Why Altmer are by FAR the greatest threat to Nirn" - don't you think it's a bit incorrect? [snip] Well, anyway, I'm glad the Altmeri propaganda is still that low-quality thing :).

    Matters not what character is my main nor if her if of royal Family. I does not bother me that someone will believe me or not, I have stated my opinion and voiced my love for Altmer. It does not to be credible.There are many lore inaccuracies and fan faction. What happened game does not mean it may happened in lore. I would not discount might might of the Aldmeri Dominion,Beware of the Eagle's cry.
    Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on February 8, 2021 3:16PM
  • Vanya
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    All that power and yet they can't win a three-way war in Cyrodiil?

    Blood for the Pact!


    They cannot win the war because it would ruin the purpose of the game. PvP in ESO is all around Three Alliance War. The point of the thread was not High elven victory over war its their motive,true purpose,threat level. There is much more deepr insight and broader view stated in current thread. They are the most superior race and always will be.Waging a war is a complex and a long process, invading is not same as defending etc. You may want to re-read my thread once more mayhap? Moving on.

    Your pact can do barely do much. Morrowind is left in ruin and weakened , if it was not for their divine three they would have been long finished.

    Argonians rely on Hist and there is little they can outside of their swamps and positively along Orcs must superstitious along with Orcs.

    Nords are strongest in the homeland and level of intellect among Nords is lowest.

    Pact is barely a threat for them. Outside of game, strictly lore-speaking:

    You seem to fail to understand purpose of my post.There is still plenty of time left, Altmer were very close of World's domination, but for sake of lore and "balance" It cannot be done. Writers can go one way and envision enslavement of all Tamriel for Thalmor that even Molag-Bal and Mephala would envy.

    What other players should realize that anyone has right to to present a theory and may not be related to game. There are things and events that left for players imagination and yet to happen.

    All what I stated in my original post makes more sense that anyone said about High elves so far and their level of danger.
  • Vanya
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    Ryuvain wrote: »
    Uh... no.

    I see. I will be happy to read if you can speak the same for your cats as well and write far longer statement to back up at least if you do not agree or saying yes or not is really vague.

    We do not need to agree but it will look a lot o better if you provide more details.
    Edited by Vanya on February 8, 2021 12:27PM
  • Vanya
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    I yet have to go through all posts,but as I expected a lot of failed to notice real message from it and there are those facts more crystal than Crystal tower that cannot be denied. Altmer are portrayed as the most superior race. Superior is not something to say lightly , I did stated my opinions surely wont repeat myself several times, will respond more soon in following days
  • Vanya
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    psychotrip wrote: »
    All that power and yet they can't win a three-way war in Cyrodiil?

    Blood for the Pact!

    Lol remember when Tiber Septim didnt think he could conquer Summerset without a giant time stomping robot god to do it for him?

    Now Talos just seems weak. Why couldn't he easily conquer their pathetic little kingdom? The Imperials got nerfed almost as badly as the Altmer. Thanks, ZOS. At least it makes the dunmer look even more OP by comparison.

    For lore and logical explanation ,Your Imperial fleet would be obliterated on sea before they even see the sight of mighty towers and any High Elven Isles.

    Naval power and Magic is what counts. If Altmer decide to go full around they will burn them with ease

    Nobody can conquer Summerset anyone short of intervention of Deadric God post Oblivion Crysis era, They got nerfed in game, not Lore-wise.

    Entirely inaccurate. Dunmer are the only race that reach stalemate with Altmer ,but not forever. Empire has become a playground for other races and monsters for quite long time now. Their true power is diminished. BUT Also Sotha sil is dead,Vivec is not what he was before etc, it may be close.

    Let us not forget what happened prior Oblivion Crysis.

    "The Eternal Champion, who retrieved one of the pieces of the Staff of Chaos from the Crystal Tower.[7] In 3E 433, the island was devastated by the Oblivion Crisis, with the hordes of the Daedra managing to topple the Crystal Tower. The forces of the Thalmor contributed greatly to repelling the Daedra, which later allowed them to gain control of the whole province, and ultimately form the Third Aldmeri Dominion, the dominant force in Tamriel in the early Fourth Era"


    POST Oblivion Crysis Thalmor alone can wage war entire Tamriel or Deadra ALONE.

    You see what Thalmor did there, they repelled Deadra alone without intervention of God or need or some super uber all mighty Dragonborn etc.

    Thrid Aldmeri Dominion has proven the frightening combination of extreme power,intellect and evil-genius mindset striving to either enslave,slaughter or dominate lesser races.

    The original Aldmeri Dominion had Queen Ayreen, if one followed Dominion storyline they will know how vastly different they were current Dominion.

    Tis only matter of time.

    Current events. -Skyrim Devastated ,Dragon Crysis has left nation in ruins. They are pretty much useless.
    - Empire is permanently weakened. They were afraid to continue to war ,its the Redguards from Hammefell who had shown extraordinary determination and valor of defending their homeland against already severely weakened Thalmor.
    - Thalmor is re-building,plotting ,envisioning new plans.

    Second war is inevitable Elves shall rule Tamriel from White-Gold Tower... this time, forever.

    Logically when you have your homeland un-touched in peace, Not been ravaged by war ,famine etc, you can rapidly recover. While Thalmor was attempting to conquer much of the Western and Central Tamriel, other High elves on Summerest isles where already preparing ,re-stockpiling,forging new weapons and building all what is needed.

    Hammerfell is stronger than Empire now but they virtually have no magic users nor force to invade and are overly independent and proud nation having terrain advantage and extremely skilled warriors , but they aren't many of them.

    We know sadly the mentality and warrior culture of people in desert, they may have most naturally talented warriors but don't know to utilize magic nor have a huge army/fleet to invade anyone.

    Same for most races as well, extremely strong thanks to the advantage of climate,terrain, but only Thalmor has a true and vast power of reaching anything they have in mind.

    You may consider Third Aldmeri Dominion as combination of British and German Empire {Real life} Twice as powerful at least.

    P.S. Take it easy. We are exploring all options healthy debate is fine as long as it does not hit to personal insults. I do not expect people will agree me at all, but I love High elves and Nords. I shan't stick to JUST one ,what I play is irrelvant, I have Nord,High elves,Dark elf,etc

    It is extremely interesting to explore various outcomes from different perspectives.
    Edited by Vanya on February 8, 2021 1:30PM
  • ZOS_ConnorG
    Greetings all,

    After review we have had to edit or remove several posts for rule violations, mostly Baiting. Ensure when engaging in a discussion that you keep said discussion civil, constructive, and within the rules. If you see a post that is baiting in nature do not engage it with further hostility and instead report it for the moderators to review.

    You are welcome to review the Community Rules here.
    Staff Post
  • psychotrip
    psychotrip
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Well that was weird. I think they just removed my post about Altmer for some reason.

    I'll make sure to say this as civilly as possible: we need to stop playing 3d chess for Zenimax and reckon with the fact that the lore has substantially changed since the Altmer were designed.

    They're just so fundamentally linked to this "old lore" that their current redesign will always leave them with a lot of plot holes and oddities.

    The Altmer were created in a time when EVERYONE was overpowered in different ways, but without the foundation of the old lore they arent left with much. This is for the simple reason that they never had a game of their own. Had Bethesda circa 2000 made a game set in Summerset (which was the original plan), future devs would've had more reason to stay faithful to the original vision like they did with Morrowind.

    No doubt the original writers had tons of plans for the Altmer that were wildly different from what we see from them now, some balance between the anti-elven propaganda of PGE1, and a more nuanced truth, but that's lost forever.

    Instead, Zenimax chose to showcase their culture for the first time since the lore was officially written. Because their version of Tamriel is so vastly different from the one that existed in the early 2000s, they had to rework them from the ground up into something more grounded, less magical and more realistic. This wasnt the original plan, as the old ESO datamines prove, and those old files are likely the closest we'll ever get to what the Altmer were truly meant to be.

    Remember, there is a conscious and intentional effort to downplay the magical elements of the setting wherever they can. Let me quote Firor:

    Todd Howard says this all the time – if magic left Tamriel, no one would notice, because it's very mundane at its heart.

    http://en.uesp.net/wiki/General:Matt_Firor_&_Rich_Lambert_Summerset_Interview

    I say this not to be hateful, or even to judge this decision, but we need to understand that it is the real intent of the people currently in charge of this IP.

    These arent brilliant strokes of writing that were always intended from the start. These are marketing decisions, financial decisions, and the visions of several executives whose taste in fantasy departs greatly from those who wrote the literal lore books.

    So yeah, I appreciate the ways the community tries to retroactively justify these retcons and marketing choices, but it doesnt change the fact that Altmer often come off as incompetent, shallow, and unjustly arrogant due to many of these tonal shifts.

    In other words: dont read so much into it. Sometimes the answers are simpler than we think.
    Edited by psychotrip on February 8, 2021 3:51PM
    No one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".

    We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.
  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Vanya wrote: »
    All that power and yet they can't win a three-way war in Cyrodiil?

    Blood for the Pact!
    They cannot win the war because it would ruin the purpose of the game. PvP in ESO is all around Three Alliance War.

    Precisely. If ZOS made the Altmer as powerful as some fans want, they'd invalidate the core storytelling principles of their own base game/DLC and undermine gameplay balance. You acknowledge this and why it won't happen. On a broader scale, the same is true of the series as a whole for ZOS and Bethesda.

    On a more humorous note, I keep picturing the 4th Era Thalmor being like "And I would have gotten away with too, if not for those meddling writers!"
    DonrFKxUcAYSg8t.jpg
  • ealdwin
    ealdwin
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Vanya wrote: »
    psychotrip wrote: »
    All that power and yet they can't win a three-way war in Cyrodiil?

    Blood for the Pact!
    "The Eternal Champion, who retrieved one of the pieces of the Staff of Chaos from the Crystal Tower.[7] In 3E 433, the island was devastated by the Oblivion Crisis, with the hordes of the Daedra managing to topple the Crystal Tower. The forces of the Thalmor contributed greatly to repelling the Daedra, which later allowed them to gain control of the whole province, and ultimately form the Third Aldmeri Dominion, the dominant force in Tamriel in the early Fourth Era"


    POST Oblivion Crysis Thalmor alone can wage war entire Tamriel or Deadra ALONE.

    You see what Thalmor did there, they repelled Deadra alone without intervention of God or need or some super uber all mighty Dragonborn etc....

    Current events. -Skyrim Devastated ,Dragon Crysis has left nation in ruins. They are pretty much useless.
    - Empire is permanently weakened. They were afraid to continue to war ,its the Redguards from Hammefell who had shown extraordinary determination and valor of defending their homeland against already severely weakened Thalmor.
    - Thalmor is re-building,plotting ,envisioning new plans.

    Second war is inevitable Elves shall rule Tamriel from White-Gold Tower... this time, forever.

    Logically when you have your homeland un-touched in peace, Not been ravaged by war ,famine etc, you can rapidly recover. While Thalmor was attempting to conquer much of the Western and Central Tamriel, other High elves on Summerest isles where already preparing ,re-stockpiling,forging new weapons and building all what is needed.

    Hammerfell is stronger than Empire now but they virtually have no magic users nor force to invade and are overly independent and proud nation having terrain advantage and extremely skilled warriors , but they aren't many of them.

    We know sadly the mentality and warrior culture of people in desert, they may have most naturally talented warriors but don't know to utilize magic nor have a huge army/fleet to invade anyone.

    Same for most races as well, extremely strong thanks to the advantage of climate,terrain, but only Thalmor has a true and vast power of reaching anything they have in mind.

    You may consider Third Aldmeri Dominion as combination of British and German Empire {Real life} Twice as powerful at least.

    P.S. Take it easy. We are exploring all options healthy debate is fine as long as it does not hit to personal insults. I do not expect people will agree me at all, but I love High elves and Nords. I shan't stick to JUST one ,what I play is irrelvant, I have Nord,High elves,Dark elf,etc

    It is extremely interesting to explore various outcomes from different perspectives.

    Oh boy... Let's start with a few things...

    I. The Role of the Thalmor in the Oblivion Crisis
    "What happened after the tower of Crystal-like-law fell was a daze. It was as if my mind simply... stopped. Instinct took over, as my every thought sank into a black abyss of despair. Time lost all meaning, and to this day I know not how long I was in this state. Eventually a conscious thought managed to break my fugue: the daedric horde had vanished! Gone as suddenly as they had come.

    Before my numbed mind could comprehend the tumult that consumed my beloved Summerset Isle, before I could formulate the question "how?" they were there, dripping honeyed poison in our ears: the Thalmor. They were the ones that saved us, they claimed, working deep and subtle magicks. It was their efforts, their sacrifices that delivered the Altmer from extinction.

    Oh, what fools we were. We wanted so desperately someone to thank for ending our tribulations, we lavished it upon the first to step up and claim the glory. With that simple act of gratitude, we allowed a vile rot to seep into our homeland, to putrefy our once noble and distinguished civilization." (Rising Threat, Vol. II)

    The quote above comes to us from "Rising Threat, Vol. II", an account from Lathenil of Sunhold. Lathenil was an eye witness to the fall of the Crystal Tower during the Oblivion Crisis. In this account he makes clear to the reader, that there was much confusion following the sudden, abrupt end to the Oblivion Crisis and the assault of Daedra in Summerset. It was during this confusion that the Thalmor stepped up and claimed responsibility. To be clear, the sole responsibility for the ending of the Deadric Invasion from the Deadlands falls upon the sacrifice of Martin Septim. That alone accounts for the sudden and abrupt closing of the jaws of Oblivion. (We the character witness this in TES IV: Oblivion.). The Thalmor manipulated the subsequent confusion in order to gain favor in the eyes of their fellow Altmer, rising above the status of a fringe radical political group. Then, they went to dispel the truth and perpetuate the falsehood of their success in ending the Crisis, and dealt with those who spoke out against them through exile or worse.

    (Note: The only race that successfully repelled the Daedra before the end of the Crisis were the Argonians, and that's only because they are essentially the sentient puppets of a race of neurally interconnected trippy-drug-sap trees. When the Daedra have axes, you spare no expense.)

    II. The Great War and Aftermath
    There is a presumption that the White-Gold Concordat was signed because the Empire sought a way out from the war, yet an assertion that the Aldmeri Dominion's end goal was—excuse the pun—dominion, and so sought to continue the war. While it is true that the Empire did indeed seek a respite from the war raging in their homeland, it can also be assumed that the Aldmeri Dominion were also welcome to a pause in the war. After all, those who are currently winning a war do not often offer a lifeline to a foe they are beating. No, the Aldmeri Dominion was beaten quite well after the Battle of the Red Ring. Titus Mede II knew this, and chose this time as an opportune moment to negotiate for peace, to allow for the rebuilding of Cyrodiil and for the Empire to regain its strength. The Aldmeri Dominion would not have agreed to this, to withdraw their armies and accept peace, had they not had incentive and motive to do so. They also were tired, and sought to regather their strength.

    There is another perception that the Aldmeri Dominion is the only ones that are gathering their strength. General Tullius, in his dialogue in TES V: Skyrim, very much suggest that the war is not truly over, and that the Empire is indeed preparing for the second Great War. Regardless of the outcome of the Civil War in Skyrim, it can be expected to be but a mere interlude in the greater conflict. Whether Skyrim ends as a province of the Empire or not, they should not be counted out when it comes to taking up arms against the Dominion. (I mean, Ulfric pretty much states he intends to sail to the Isles and stick his axe in every golden head he can.)

    And furthermore, Hammerfell will certainly be there as well to answer the call to take up arms should the call be made. The Illiac Bay region is well known for its ports of trade, and the Bretons and Redguards are both noted seafarers with impressive navies. The point about the Redguards not having the fleet to invade anyone is contrary to every bit of lore regarding them. I'll leave this quote from UESP: "The Redguards are also known for their naval prowess, and their fleets have proved a match for the Empire's best armadas, as seen during the Stros M'Kai revolt." Lore: Redguard. If a fully unified, prepared force of Nords, Redguards, Bretons, and Imperials (and potentially also Dunmer, Argonians, and perhaps Khajiit too if they wise up to the deceptions of the Thalmor) were to make war upon the Dominion, whether under the banner of the Empire or as separate banners united in one cause will prove quite the formidable force; one to be reckoned with.
    Edited by ealdwin on February 8, 2021 5:38PM
  • Vanya
    Vanya
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ealdwin wrote: »
    Vanya wrote: »
    psychotrip wrote: »
    All that power and yet they can't win a three-way war in Cyrodiil?

    Blood for the Pact!
    "The Eternal Champion, who retrieved one of the pieces of the Staff of Chaos from the Crystal Tower.[7] In 3E 433, the island was devastated by the Oblivion Crisis, with the hordes of the Daedra managing to topple the Crystal Tower. The forces of the Thalmor contributed greatly to repelling the Daedra, which later allowed them to gain control of the whole province, and ultimately form the Third Aldmeri Dominion, the dominant force in Tamriel in the early Fourth Era"


    POST Oblivion Crysis Thalmor alone can wage war entire Tamriel or Deadra ALONE.

    You see what Thalmor did there, they repelled Deadra alone without intervention of God or need or some super uber all mighty Dragonborn etc....

    Current events. -Skyrim Devastated ,Dragon Crysis has left nation in ruins. They are pretty much useless.
    - Empire is permanently weakened. They were afraid to continue to war ,its the Redguards from Hammefell who had shown extraordinary determination and valor of defending their homeland against already severely weakened Thalmor.
    - Thalmor is re-building,plotting ,envisioning new plans.

    Second war is inevitable Elves shall rule Tamriel from White-Gold Tower... this time, forever.

    Logically when you have your homeland un-touched in peace, Not been ravaged by war ,famine etc, you can rapidly recover. While Thalmor was attempting to conquer much of the Western and Central Tamriel, other High elves on Summerest isles where already preparing ,re-stockpiling,forging new weapons and building all what is needed.

    Hammerfell is stronger than Empire now but they virtually have no magic users nor force to invade and are overly independent and proud nation having terrain advantage and extremely skilled warriors , but they aren't many of them.

    We know sadly the mentality and warrior culture of people in desert, they may have most naturally talented warriors but don't know to utilize magic nor have a huge army/fleet to invade anyone.

    Same for most races as well, extremely strong thanks to the advantage of climate,terrain, but only Thalmor has a true and vast power of reaching anything they have in mind.

    You may consider Third Aldmeri Dominion as combination of British and German Empire {Real life} Twice as powerful at least.

    P.S. Take it easy. We are exploring all options healthy debate is fine as long as it does not hit to personal insults. I do not expect people will agree me at all, but I love High elves and Nords. I shan't stick to JUST one ,what I play is irrelvant, I have Nord,High elves,Dark elf,etc

    It is extremely interesting to explore various outcomes from different perspectives.

    Oh boy... Let's start with a few things...

    I. The Role of the Thalmor in the Oblivion Crisis
    "What happened after the tower of Crystal-like-law fell was a daze. It was as if my mind simply... stopped. Instinct took over, as my every thought sank into a black abyss of despair. Time lost all meaning, and to this day I know not how long I was in this state. Eventually a conscious thought managed to break my fugue: the daedric horde had vanished! Gone as suddenly as they had come.

    Before my numbed mind could comprehend the tumult that consumed my beloved Summerset Isle, before I could formulate the question "how?" they were there, dripping honeyed poison in our ears: the Thalmor. They were the ones that saved us, they claimed, working deep and subtle magicks. It was their efforts, their sacrifices that delivered the Altmer from extinction.

    Oh, what fools we were. We wanted so desperately someone to thank for ending our tribulations, we lavished it upon the first to step up and claim the glory. With that simple act of gratitude, we allowed a vile rot to seep into our homeland, to putrefy our once noble and distinguished civilization." (Rising Threat, Vol. II)

    The quote above comes to us from "Rising Threat, Vol. II", an account from Lathenil of Sunhold. Lathenil was an eye witness to the fall of the Crystal Tower during the Oblivion Crisis. In this account he makes clear to the reader, that there was much confusion following the sudden, abrupt end to the Oblivion Crisis and the assault of Daedra in Summerset. It was during this confusion that the Thalmor stepped up and claimed responsibility. To be clear, the sole responsibility for the ending of the Deadric Invasion from the Deadlands falls upon the sacrifice of Martin Septim. That alone accounts for the sudden and abrupt closing of the jaws of Oblivion. (We the character witness this in TES IV: Oblivion.). The Thalmor manipulated the subsequent confusion in order to gain favor in the eyes of their fellow Altmer, rising above the status of a fringe radical political group. Then, they went to dispel the truth and perpetuate the falsehood of their success in ending the Crisis, and dealt with those who spoke out against them through exile or worse.

    (Note: The only race that successfully repelled the Daedra before the end of the Crisis were the Argonians, and that's only because they are essentially the sentient puppets of a race of neurally interconnected trippy-drug-sap trees. When the Daedra have axes, you spare no expense.)

    II. The Great War and Aftermath
    There is a presumption that the White-Gold Concordat was signed because the Empire sought a way out from the war, yet an assertion that the Aldmeri Dominion's end goal was—excuse the pun—dominion, and so sought to continue the war. While it is true that the Empire did indeed seek a respite from the war raging in their homeland, it can also be assumed that the Aldmeri Dominion were also welcome to a pause in the war. After all, those who are currently winning a war do not often offer a lifeline to a foe they are beating. No, the Aldmeri Dominion was beaten quite well after the Battle of the Red Ring. Titus Mede II knew this, and chose this time as an opportune moment to negotiate for peace, to allow for the rebuilding of Cyrodiil and for the Empire to regain its strength. The Aldmeri Dominion would not have agreed to this, to withdraw their armies and accept peace, had they not had incentive and motive to do so. They also were tired, and sought to regather their strength.

    There is another perception that the Aldmeri Dominion is the only ones that are gathering their strength. General Tullius, in his dialogue in TES V: Skyrim, very much suggest that the war is not truly over, and that the Empire is indeed preparing for the second Great War. Regardless of the outcome of the Civil War in Skyrim, it can be expected to be but a mere interlude in the greater conflict. Whether Skyrim ends as a province of the Empire or not, they should not be counted out when it comes to taking up arms against the Dominion. (I mean, Ulfric pretty much states he intends to sail to the Isles and stick his axe in every golden head he can.)

    And furthermore, Hammerfell will certainly be there as well to answer the call to take up arms should the call be made. The Illiac Bay region is well known for its ports of trade, and the Bretons and Redguards are both noted seafarers with impressive navies. The point about the Redguards not having the fleet to invade anyone is contrary to every bit of lore regarding them. I'll leave this quote from UESP: "The Redguards are also known for their naval prowess, and their fleets have proved a match for the Empire's best armadas, as seen during the Stros M'Kai revolt." Lore: Redguard. If a fully unified, prepared force of Nords, Redguards, Bretons, and Imperials (and potentially also Dunmer, Argonians, and perhaps Khajiit too if they wise up to the deceptions of the Thalmor) were to make war upon the Dominion, whether under the banner of the Empire or as separate banners united in one cause will prove quite the formidable force; one to be reckoned with.

    Is it and who is right or wrong? I can re-write the lore if I desire. Before that I wanted to ask where is your official source? Have you went through my first?

    You do realize what was the main subject on thread players often add something else on their own and conversation wents other way, I may read it, but in comparison to some other users I prefer playing actually than having lore-wars game on forums.

    Note: Have not read yet,entirely just briefly saw it.
    Edited by Vanya on February 8, 2021 6:17PM
  • Vanya
    Vanya
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Just to mention few things. The forms of discussions would not exist if we all agree and secondly all of this is imagined,pure fantasy no matter how extraorinary or beloved, do not take it personally,Accept that other people have entirely different perspective and theories about lore or certain faction/race as well.
    Edited by Vanya on February 10, 2021 6:36AM
  • kaisernick
    kaisernick
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    psychotrip wrote: »
    zxffc1yt0l68.png

    That just screams of quelthelas and the high/blood elves of WoW
    i feel what we have is fine artecture wise though a few more npc's doing magic and the like would have been nice.
    Artaum was the biggest let down imo all the mystery surrounding that place and we a get a crappy tower we can barly explore.

    Edited by kaisernick on February 10, 2021 12:51PM
  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Vanya wrote: »
    Just to mention few things. The forms of discussions would not exist if we all agree and secondly all of this is imagined,pure fantasy no matter how extraorinary or beloved, do not take it personally,Accept that other people have entirely different perspective and theories about lore or certain faction/race as well.

    Not to take it personally, but fan theories don't rise to the same level as the actual gameplay nor the official lore.

    To quote an interview from Todd Howard, where he talks about canon and answers to lore questions: ""What's the order of priority?" If you saw it on the screen that's number one, that's the most truth. If you read it in the game, that's second truth. If you read it in an official thing outside the game, in the manual, that's the third. If you read it from a fan on the Internet that's way down there, that's like not on the list, right! But that's the main three. On the screen, something you see happen, regardless of what game it is or when it came out, that for us is the primary. A book in the game is second, and then a book that's official outside the game is third."
    https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/General:Todd_Howard_PAX_East_2019_Interview

    So its totally alright to have pet theories about the Altmer and how their power level should logically let them dominate all of Tamriel with the most powerful navy ever, etc.

    Seriously, that's cool. Ask me about my TES 3 fanfiction some time, and I'll regale you with my headcanons regarding Azura's prophecies, Dagoth Ur's real plan, and how it all played out for my Nerevarine.

    But where my fanfiction contradicts the game, the lore, or what other players saw in their game, it isn't canon. Where it goes against the lore, its fanfiction and headcanon, not remotely official.

    So while you aren't interested in playing "lore-wars" on the forums, I'd encourage you to consider that one reason you keep having posters on the Lore subforum point out areas where the existing gameplay and official lore sources (such as the ones ealdwin provided) contradict your posts is simply because as Todd Howard says, we put the gameplay and official lore ahead of fan interpretation.

    You've said, "I can re-write the lore if I desire."

    In the words of Todd Howard, "If you read it from a fan on the Internet that's way down there, that's like not on the list, right!"

    Don't get me wrong. Its a really cool fan theory! It just doesn't stand up to Todd Howard's explanation of canon priority when we look at gameplay first, in game books second, and official sources third. In all fairness, neither would my fanfiction!

    So I guess I'll ask.
    Would you like us to discuss this post as Lore, with all the claims to canonicity which that entails?
    Or would you like us to discuss this as a fan theory about the Altmer lore?
    Edited by VaranisArano on February 10, 2021 4:49PM
  • bluelights400
    bluelights400
    ✭✭✭
    psychotrip wrote: »
    Radiance wrote: »
    psychotrip wrote: »
    Radiance wrote: »
    My main is an altmer but this made me shudder! Am I the only non Alt-Supremacist? The SummerSet Chapter is about fighting against those kinds of racist ideals...

    This is what happens when racism becomes your people's only defining trait...

    The only, really? I prefer to reference their magic and pointy ears. It's funny that racism is a defining trait of the Altmer but you turn around and use a that reductive generalization to be racist against them. And let's not act like every other culture doesn't have their faults. The Dunmer are Slavers, the Bosmer are Cannibals, The Orcs are polygamists and think they can solve everything with violence, not unlike the Nords. I could go on, but I think you get my point. I still play all of those races but I choose not to partake in those parts of their cultures.

    I'm comparing them to the old lore, and what many expected from them based on previous descriptions and the intent of the original writers.

    I'm also comparing them to any other decent fantasy world, where having some magic and pointy ears is the bare minimum, not an achievement of creativity. The Altmer, post retcons, really have nothing unique about them as a people, especially compared to the other ES elves. They feel like what bretons should be if anything.

    Remember, this is the race that forced Zenimax to come out and make an official statement that Tamriel isn't a very magical place just so they could justify how much they "toned the Altmer down" despite the last expansion being the clockwork city, because dunmer are the only elves allowed to be powerful or unique anymore.

    All I'm saying is we could've had stuff like this from the Altmer:
    qv87jkdie0x9.jpg
    sq0zi7nfnoj9.jpg
    kmkwfp28jt9r.png
    0yatnh9aso90.jpg
    vzyz6boi0ltz.png

    6m41a0xjek6d.png
    v9ysur65bgyi.jpg
    mhb5b8z3b06a.png
    us.v-w44ab8u5te6h.png
    cdn.net/5020507/uploads/editor/ea/v9mc8bhyjn2z.png
    bn4qowp5rfe9.png
    y8pvaqcrzsrj.jpg
    zxffc1yt0l68.png
    ngnvgyaqabb5.png
    cr0me2ed7yc1.png



    Instead we got this:
    9n6zaz5dcwb5.jpg



    I know most people here like the latter, but I just feel like they missed a great opportunity to portray the Altmer in a more nuanced way, like the community has for decades.

    Instead, Zenimax scrapped half the lore in favor of a lazy expansion that reduces the Altmer to generic high elves, which was exactly what the original writers were trying to prevent.

    Step outside the lore for a second and look at what was lost, from a narrative and environmental perspective, FOREVER.

    Zenimax wanted to rush its way through and make an expansion on a land they had no interest in doing justice to. The result was the death of one of The Elder Scrolls most complex and unique cultures.

    So yes, when you compare the current Altmer even to themselves they come up lacking. So now we're left with threads like these, where the only thing there really is to talk about as an Altmer fan is how delusionally "better" we are than everyone else despite all evidence pointing to us being the most pathetic race of Nirn.

    Tell me where you got some of that art from? I lobe it!! Except... why shark people?
  • bluelights400
    bluelights400
    ✭✭✭
    be me an altmer chilling doing nothing. Absolutley nothing. Like probably not even a noble

    *Tiber septim throws his idea of peaceful truce with king of alinor out the window and just slams the elven enemy god powered numidium on my house*

    me again: Bro thats my house

    *Thalmor rise to power and are pissed at tiber doing that like come on man we were just here. He is now a God and average altmer people have to pay the price that the Thalmor are rising up in power*

    me again: Bro why did you kill my whole family for disagreeing with your supremacist views

    *Thalmor silence all who disagree and paint altmer as bad guys*

    My reaction when someone says all altmer are evil: https://images.app.goo.gl/sHhuHBPQ8Pbh8nqE9
  • bluelights400
    bluelights400
    ✭✭✭
    RedMuse wrote: »
    psychotrip wrote: »
    RedMuse wrote: »
    psychotrip wrote: »
    I am eternally depressed that the entire narrative purpose of the Altmer was to differentiate them from generic, traditional high elves...

    ...And yet thanks to ESO thats all people see them as. Just snobby, foppish, british people with a superiority complex living in greco-roman disneyland. Just fancy humans with pointy ears. This thread is just a testament to how far they've fallen.

    My main familiarity with Altmer, their beilves and culture were from Skyrim. Trust me when I say that "snobby, foppish, british people with a superiority complex living in greco-roman disneyland" would be a vast improvement over the opinion I have of them.

    Would you believe me if I said that they were intended to be far more 3 dimensional, unique, and interesting? Equally as strange and fantastical as the dunmer but in their own way?

    That's all just transcrption errors now, lol. Now instead of an ancient, magically advanced island nation with its own alien culture, beliefs, and conflicts, we're left with nothing more than Somerset, England with annoying knife-eared humans, and the most unlikable high elves I've ever seen in a fantasy setting.

    Sometimes, I genuinely think ZOS has been mandated to make the dunmer look as OP and mary-sueish as possible, while ensuring the Altmer are as inept and unlikable as possible. Even their clothing from the base game looked shoddily put together. It's like someone at Zenimax just despises the Altmer.

    No, I wouldn't. Because if you find the ESO Altmer flat, then I'm not sure why you don't have a bigger problem with the Skyrim Altmer. Because they're flat AND modeled after probably the worst and mot reviled genocidal regime in recent history. Not saying the ESO Altmer are grand but they're miles ahead of Skyrim Altmers.

    I agree. Skyrim in general had poor portrayal of elves. I mean morrowind gave a dunmeri perspective, oblivion gave an imperial perspective (with some very polite altmer along the way) and skyrim gave a nords perspective (Elf sux!!) and soon I hope to see one from an altmer's perspective (elf gucci!). As skyrim was so popular, Its going to be hard to establish in other games how elves aren't one dimensional, evil souless creatures (like that book pocketbook of the empire states) They have many layers. ESO presents this very well. ESO's perspective on races are varied for this reason. If you had an MMO about allisnces, yet one race's perspective was favoured- then the game and rping aspect would be ruined. If you join the dominion you get that perspective, if you play pact, you get the pact's perspective etc. In skyrim I had no idea how diverese and incredible the khajiit and altmer were. I never knew how diverse they could be, the nuances between person to person. It was a fantastic step for ESO to take in my opinion.

    ESO does a 10x better job. Here are my favourite altmer

    The lady at the bank of Alinor who is excitex to see you if youare a different race
    Justiciar Tanorian
    Ritemaster Icheses
    Valsirenn (I LOVE VAL)
    Fennorian
    Verandis
    That cute guy in senchal who sits against a wall and mocks you when you speak with him
    That altmer mystic seller in the same spot as the cute guy with the really nice voice.
    Aranias (poor thing, her story was quite tragic)
    Literally my OC altmer I love them so much
    Queen ayrenn. So peaceful :)
    This Thalmor guy in greenshade. I forget his name.
    Vanus galerion
    Laelorian dynar (He's an ayleid but he's still great)
    Silurie + her sister
    That lady in skywatch who asks you to pray for her lost children (havent finished that quest yet but she seems nice)
    OLORIME!! I love her
    Leythen (nice hair colour)

    I could go on. I find their snootiness more of a charming trait. Like dunmer calling me an N'wah or swit. I LIKE IT
  • Vanya
    Vanya
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    psychotrip wrote: »
    Radiance wrote: »
    psychotrip wrote: »
    Radiance wrote: »
    My main is an altmer but this made me shudder! Am I the only non Alt-Supremacist? The SummerSet Chapter is about fighting against those kinds of racist ideals...

    This is what happens when racism becomes your people's only defining trait...

    The only, really? I prefer to reference their magic and pointy ears. It's funny that racism is a defining trait of the Altmer but you turn around and use a that reductive generalization to be racist against them. And let's not act like every other culture doesn't have their faults. The Dunmer are Slavers, the Bosmer are Cannibals, The Orcs are polygamists and think they can solve everything with violence, not unlike the Nords. I could go on, but I think you get my point. I still play all of those races but I choose not to partake in those parts of their cultures.

    I'm comparing them to the old lore, and what many expected from them based on previous descriptions and the intent of the original writers.

    I'm also comparing them to any other decent fantasy world, where having some magic and pointy ears is the bare minimum, not an achievement of creativity. The Altmer, post retcons, really have nothing unique about them as a people, especially compared to the other ES elves. They feel like what bretons should be if anything.

    Remember, this is the race that forced Zenimax to come out and make an official statement that Tamriel isn't a very magical place just so they could justify how much they "toned the Altmer down" despite the last expansion being the clockwork city, because dunmer are the only elves allowed to be powerful or unique anymore.

    All I'm saying is we could've had stuff like this from the Altmer:
    qv87jkdie0x9.jpg
    sq0zi7nfnoj9.jpg
    kmkwfp28jt9r.png
    0yatnh9aso90.jpg
    vzyz6boi0ltz.png

    6m41a0xjek6d.png
    v9ysur65bgyi.jpg
    mhb5b8z3b06a.png
    us.v-w44ab8u5te6h.png
    cdn.net/5020507/uploads/editor/ea/v9mc8bhyjn2z.png
    bn4qowp5rfe9.png
    y8pvaqcrzsrj.jpg
    zxffc1yt0l68.png
    ngnvgyaqabb5.png
    cr0me2ed7yc1.png



    Instead we got this:
    9n6zaz5dcwb5.jpg



    I know most people here like the latter, but I just feel like they missed a great opportunity to portray the Altmer in a more nuanced way, like the community has for decades.

    Instead, Zenimax scrapped half the lore in favor of a lazy expansion that reduces the Altmer to generic high elves, which was exactly what the original writers were trying to prevent.

    Step outside the lore for a second and look at what was lost, from a narrative and environmental perspective, FOREVER.

    Zenimax wanted to rush its way through and make an expansion on a land they had no interest in doing justice to. The result was the death of one of The Elder Scrolls most complex and unique cultures.

    So yes, when you compare the current Altmer even to themselves they come up lacking. So now we're left with threads like these, where the only thing there really is to talk about as an Altmer fan is how delusionally "better" we are than everyone else despite all evidence pointing to us being the most pathetic race of Nirn.

    Tell me where you got some of that art from? I lobe it!! Except... why shark people?

    Disgusting portrayal , the art I meant a mockery to elves from structural design ,facial expressions and armor. That Katana blade and super long neck.

    By The Great Egg twas not meant to me.
  • Vanya
    Vanya
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    RedMuse wrote: »
    psychotrip wrote: »
    RedMuse wrote: »
    psychotrip wrote: »
    I am eternally depressed that the entire narrative purpose of the Altmer was to differentiate them from generic, traditional high elves...

    ...And yet thanks to ESO thats all people see them as. Just snobby, foppish, british people with a superiority complex living in greco-roman disneyland. Just fancy humans with pointy ears. This thread is just a testament to how far they've fallen.

    My main familiarity with Altmer, their beilves and culture were from Skyrim. Trust me when I say that "snobby, foppish, british people with a superiority complex living in greco-roman disneyland" would be a vast improvement over the opinion I have of them.

    Would you believe me if I said that they were intended to be far more 3 dimensional, unique, and interesting? Equally as strange and fantastical as the dunmer but in their own way?

    That's all just transcrption errors now, lol. Now instead of an ancient, magically advanced island nation with its own alien culture, beliefs, and conflicts, we're left with nothing more than Somerset, England with annoying knife-eared humans, and the most unlikable high elves I've ever seen in a fantasy setting.

    Sometimes, I genuinely think ZOS has been mandated to make the dunmer look as OP and mary-sueish as possible, while ensuring the Altmer are as inept and unlikable as possible. Even their clothing from the base game looked shoddily put together. It's like someone at Zenimax just despises the Altmer.

    No, I wouldn't. Because if you find the ESO Altmer flat, then I'm not sure why you don't have a bigger problem with the Skyrim Altmer. Because they're flat AND modeled after probably the worst and mot reviled genocidal regime in recent history. Not saying the ESO Altmer are grand but they're miles ahead of Skyrim Altmers.

    I agree. Skyrim in general had poor portrayal of elves. I mean morrowind gave a dunmeri perspective, oblivion gave an imperial perspective (with some very polite altmer along the way) and skyrim gave a nords perspective (Elf sux!!) and soon I hope to see one from an altmer's perspective (elf gucci!). As skyrim was so popular, Its going to be hard to establish in other games how elves aren't one dimensional, evil souless creatures (like that book pocketbook of the empire states) They have many layers. ESO presents this very well. ESO's perspective on races are varied for this reason. If you had an MMO about allisnces, yet one race's perspective was favoured- then the game and rping aspect would be ruined. If you join the dominion you get that perspective, if you play pact, you get the pact's perspective etc. In skyrim I had no idea how diverese and incredible the khajiit and altmer were. I never knew how diverse they could be, the nuances between person to person. It was a fantastic step for ESO to take in my opinion.

    ESO does a 10x better job. Here are my favourite altmer

    The lady at the bank of Alinor who is excitex to see you if youare a different race
    Justiciar Tanorian
    Ritemaster Icheses
    Valsirenn (I LOVE VAL)
    Fennorian
    Verandis
    That cute guy in senchal who sits against a wall and mocks you when you speak with him
    That altmer mystic seller in the same spot as the cute guy with the really nice voice.
    Aranias (poor thing, her story was quite tragic)
    Literally my OC altmer I love them so much
    Queen ayrenn. So peaceful :)
    This Thalmor guy in greenshade. I forget his name.
    Vanus galerion
    Laelorian dynar (He's an ayleid but he's still great)
    Silurie + her sister
    That lady in skywatch who asks you to pray for her lost children (havent finished that quest yet but she seems nice)
    OLORIME!! I love her
    Leythen (nice hair colour)

    I could go on. I find their snootiness more of a charming trait. Like dunmer calling me an N'wah or swit. I LIKE IT

    Val is so underrated. I loved her since start,super intelligent,complex and loyal character. I have a crush.
  • PrayingSeraph
    PrayingSeraph
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think we're missing the real reason the Altmer are so dangerous. To sum it up briefly, their religion teaches them that the world of Nirn, linear time, and physical matter were a mistake, an idea which most other elves seem to follow. The Bosmer have taken to nature to adapt to this mistake, the Orsimer (Orcs) took to Malacath worship, the Chimer (who later turned into the Dunmer) followed some Daedric princes and later the tribunal, then the princes again and saw the world as a challenge, not as something to be gotten rid of.

    The Altmer believe that the world is evil and needs to be undone, and that humanity needs to be erased, along with the very idea of humanity. If they had their way, the Altmer would undo creation itself and not only would Nirn be destroyed, but the basic concepts which allow for life we know it would disappear, like ordered sequences of events. And the Altmer are close to accomplishing their goal as of the 4th era, if the Tower lore is true.

    If that's not a threat, I don't know what is.

    Isn't the whole "Thalmor want to destroy the towers to undo Nirn" MK fanon? I don't remember seeing anything to indicate such in canon materials.
    Edited by PrayingSeraph on February 14, 2021 4:43AM
  • Kadraeus
    Kadraeus
    ✭✭✭✭
    psychotrip wrote: »
    Radiance wrote: »
    psychotrip wrote: »
    Radiance wrote: »
    My main is an altmer but this made me shudder! Am I the only non Alt-Supremacist? The SummerSet Chapter is about fighting against those kinds of racist ideals...

    This is what happens when racism becomes your people's only defining trait...

    The only, really? I prefer to reference their magic and pointy ears. It's funny that racism is a defining trait of the Altmer but you turn around and use a that reductive generalization to be racist against them. And let's not act like every other culture doesn't have their faults. The Dunmer are Slavers, the Bosmer are Cannibals, The Orcs are polygamists and think they can solve everything with violence, not unlike the Nords. I could go on, but I think you get my point. I still play all of those races but I choose not to partake in those parts of their cultures.

    I'm comparing them to the old lore, and what many expected from them based on previous descriptions and the intent of the original writers.

    I'm also comparing them to any other decent fantasy world, where having some magic and pointy ears is the bare minimum, not an achievement of creativity. The Altmer, post retcons, really have nothing unique about them as a people, especially compared to the other ES elves. They feel like what bretons should be if anything.

    Remember, this is the race that forced Zenimax to come out and make an official statement that Tamriel isn't a very magical place just so they could justify how much they "toned the Altmer down" despite the last expansion being the clockwork city, because dunmer are the only elves allowed to be powerful or unique anymore.

    All I'm saying is we could've had stuff like this from the Altmer:
    qv87jkdie0x9.jpg
    sq0zi7nfnoj9.jpg
    kmkwfp28jt9r.png
    0yatnh9aso90.jpg
    vzyz6boi0ltz.png

    6m41a0xjek6d.png
    v9ysur65bgyi.jpg
    mhb5b8z3b06a.png
    us.v-w44ab8u5te6h.png
    cdn.net/5020507/uploads/editor/ea/v9mc8bhyjn2z.png
    bn4qowp5rfe9.png
    y8pvaqcrzsrj.jpg
    zxffc1yt0l68.png
    ngnvgyaqabb5.png
    cr0me2ed7yc1.png



    Instead we got this:
    9n6zaz5dcwb5.jpg



    I know most people here like the latter, but I just feel like they missed a great opportunity to portray the Altmer in a more nuanced way, like the community has for decades.

    Instead, Zenimax scrapped half the lore in favor of a lazy expansion that reduces the Altmer to generic high elves, which was exactly what the original writers were trying to prevent.

    Step outside the lore for a second and look at what was lost, from a narrative and environmental perspective, FOREVER.

    Zenimax wanted to rush its way through and make an expansion on a land they had no interest in doing justice to. The result was the death of one of The Elder Scrolls most complex and unique cultures.

    So yes, when you compare the current Altmer even to themselves they come up lacking. So now we're left with threads like these, where the only thing there really is to talk about as an Altmer fan is how delusionally "better" we are than everyone else despite all evidence pointing to us being the most pathetic race of Nirn.

    That's some absolutely gorgeous artwork. Thanks for sharing them here. Honestly, I don't really see how the Altmer can't be different in the future. ESO is like 1000 years before Skyrim, so things are expected to have changed. I mean, the Dominion already changes a ton between the 2nd and 4th eras, considering the persecution the Thalmor are responsible for in Skyrim. 1000 years is a long time. If you compare our 2021 world to the world of 1021, there would obviously be HUGE differences. If you really want the Altmer to be so otherworldly, I think Bethesda could totally do this in future games since we don't know what Summerset looks like in the 4th Era. For all we know, there could've been a huge change in their culture and art between those periods. Perhaps they tore down the old buildings and completely redesigned them.

    Irl, we went from stuff like this (Milan Cathedral, Italy):
    1200px-Milan_Cathedral_from_Piazza_del_Duomo.jpg

    To stuff like this (Valencia Opera House, Spain):
    Valencia-Opera-House-Spain-by-Jorn-van-Maanen-837.jpg

    Even then, the Thalmor robes and armor in Skyrim don't really look all that different from what we see in ESO, so I doubt Bethesda Game Studios imagined Summerset as being very different from what ZOS went with.

  • Lugaldu
    Lugaldu
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Kadraeus wrote: »
    If you compare our 2021 world to the world of 1021, there would obviously be HUGE differences.

    Indeed, a lot could have changed in 1000 years, but in comparison there have been millennia in our world in which not much has changed. So it is not necessarily that something would change.

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