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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8098811/#Comment_8098811
Feedback on Armor and CP mitigation
SgtNuttzmeg
✭✭✭✭
After some preliminary testing the AOE % mitigation from the new medium armor passive feels overturned especially in conjunction with evasion or shuffle. The additional % mitigation when immune to CCs seems too strong too. You should consider reducing the % mitigation down to 1%.
Also it is clear that these changes will create a meta where most people will play 4/3 set ups. You should consider reducing the number of corresponding armour prices required to activate an armor active ability down to 4. Two of these abilities are very popular in PvP and it would be a shame to see these skills fall out of use.
You should consider taking this opportunity to try reworking the heavy armor skill. Currently it has no use in PvE and the cons out weigh the benefits
. This skill use to give heavy armor the feeling of being slow and bluky but providing more mitigation and defence. However the new passives now provide this. This ability could use a huge face lift.
Edited by SgtNuttzmeg on January 31, 2021 2:02PM Also it is clear that these changes will create a meta where most people will play 4/3 set ups. You should consider reducing the number of corresponding armour prices required to activate an armor active ability down to 4. Two of these abilities are very popular in PvP and it would be a shame to see these skills fall out of use.
You should consider taking this opportunity to try reworking the heavy armor skill. Currently it has no use in PvE and the cons out weigh the benefits
. This skill use to give heavy armor the feeling of being slow and bluky but providing more mitigation and defence. However the new passives now provide this. This ability could use a huge face lift.
Legions of Mordor Core
Cold0neFTBs
Cold0neFTBs
4
-
SgtNuttzmeg✭✭✭✭After more testing the set Crimison still feels really overturned. This set either needs more counter play, for there to be a cap on how many targets can get hit by this or for it's heal to be nerfed. The scaling on this set is too powerful. In a small scale fight 1-2 enemies the heal is okay but the moment you hit 3+ the heal scales out of control. Max health also is incredibly high. Fights will take even longer to finish and this will only make performance worse in PvP areas.Legions of Mordor Core
Cold0neFTBs2 -
boaz733✭✭✭from what I have seen the light armor new passives are too good,
the medium armor is pretty balanced
and the heavy is terrible, I don't get the reason for taking more dmg from mag attacks on heavy armor,
and it's also slowing u down, making dodge roll expensive, It doomed to die.0 -
SgtNuttzmeg✭✭✭✭from what I have seen the light armor new passives are too good,
the medium armor is pretty balanced
and the heavy is terrible, I don't get the reason for taking more dmg from mag attacks on heavy armor,
and it's also slowing u down, making dodge roll expensive, It doomed to die.
I was gonna test out the buff to SR and % mitigation. They might too strong together. The reason why medium armor needs to be tweaked is because it has access to major evasion from the armour active ability and it's too strong giving medium builds upwards of 30%-34% mitigation against aoes.
Heavy armor is too strong currently. These weaknesses definitely help to address the staggering levels of mitigation you can get with heavy armor. They just need to address how cheap block is and how high health pools are in PvP.Legions of Mordor Core
Cold0neFTBs0 -
StarOfElyon✭✭✭✭✭
✭from what I have seen the light armor new passives are too good,
the medium armor is pretty balanced
and the heavy is terrible, I don't get the reason for taking more dmg from mag attacks on heavy armor,
and it's also slowing u down, making dodge roll expensive, It doomed to die.
No its not. Heavy armors penalties are going to be solved by CP passives. Light armor penalties are no problem for Sorcs but other magicka classes who can't stack shields or streak are in trouble.3 -
Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭StarOfElyon wrote: »from what I have seen the light armor new passives are too good,
the medium armor is pretty balanced
and the heavy is terrible, I don't get the reason for taking more dmg from mag attacks on heavy armor,
and it's also slowing u down, making dodge roll expensive, It doomed to die.
No its not. Heavy armors penalties are going to be solved by CP passives. Light armor penalties are no problem for Sorcs but other magicka classes who can't stack shields or streak are in trouble.
Sorcerer will get crippled by the martial damage just the same. Do not live under the illusion that Sorcerers are completely untouchable or never get hit by anything. Gap closers are loved and popular, as are martial proc sets.
I wouldn't go further than saying, Sorcerer and Nightblade can make it work. Other classes will likely just tumble instantly unless they sacrifice several sets for tankiness; at which point you ask yourself the question: Why not choose heavy armor to begin with?Auri-El is my lord,
Trinimac is my shield,
Magnus is my mind.1 -
SgtNuttzmeg✭✭✭✭StarOfElyon wrote: »from what I have seen the light armor new passives are too good,
the medium armor is pretty balanced
and the heavy is terrible, I don't get the reason for taking more dmg from mag attacks on heavy armor,
and it's also slowing u down, making dodge roll expensive, It doomed to die.
No its not. Heavy armors penalties are going to be solved by CP passives. Light armor penalties are no problem for Sorcs but other magicka classes who can't stack shields or streak are in trouble.StarOfElyon wrote: »from what I have seen the light armor new passives are too good,
the medium armor is pretty balanced
and the heavy is terrible, I don't get the reason for taking more dmg from mag attacks on heavy armor,
and it's also slowing u down, making dodge roll expensive, It doomed to die.
No its not. Heavy armors penalties are going to be solved by CP passives. Light armor penalties are no problem for Sorcs but other magicka classes who can't stack shields or streak are in trouble.
Sorcerer will get crippled by the martial damage just the same. Do not live under the illusion that Sorcerers are completely untouchable or never get hit by anything. Gap closers are loved and popular, as are martial proc sets.
I wouldn't go further than saying, Sorcerer and Nightblade can make it work. Other classes will likely just tumble instantly unless they sacrifice several sets for tankiness; at which point you ask yourself the question: Why not choose heavy armor to begin with?
The problem you guys are having is that you are underestimating the power of a 4/3 light heavy armor build. With these changes we are likely going to see most Magicka classes shifting to a 4/3 or a 3/4 setup. With either of those setups you pretty much completely compensate for the % mitigation weaknesses caused by both armor types.
The main pain point I am seeing is that they are trying to do a rock/paper/scissors set up which would work fine but they have two damage categories and three armor categories. This awkwardness creates an imbalance where medium doesn't have a weakness but it also doesn't compensate for a weakness. The AOE mitigation helps but it doesn't really help with small-scale PvP fighting.Edited by SgtNuttzmeg on January 31, 2021 5:07PMLegions of Mordor Core
Cold0neFTBs0 -
stefj68✭✭✭✭✭medium armor have now 2 sneak cost reduction... one from the armor bonus passive, and one from the skills you pick... they prolly didnt realize it ... 5 per pieces from the medium armor passive and 7 per pieces from improved sneak
i tested a few 4/3 and 4/2/1 scenario and i like it...
even if they dont reduce armor skills to 4 pieces instead of 5, in some builds i will go 4/3 or 4/2/1
awesome changes
Edited by stefj68 on January 31, 2021 9:44PM0 -
SgtNuttzmeg✭✭✭✭medium armor have now 2 speak cost reduction... one from the armor bonus passive, and one from the skills you pick... they prolly didnt realize it ... 5 per pieces from the medium armor passive and 7 per pieces from improved sneak
i tested a few 4/3 and 4/2/1 scenario and i like it...
even if they dont reduce armor skills to 4 pieces instead of 5, in some builds i will go 4/3 or 4/2/1
awesome changes
That's a good point. I didn't even realize it.Legions of Mordor Core
Cold0neFTBs0 -
Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »StarOfElyon wrote: »from what I have seen the light armor new passives are too good,
the medium armor is pretty balanced
and the heavy is terrible, I don't get the reason for taking more dmg from mag attacks on heavy armor,
and it's also slowing u down, making dodge roll expensive, It doomed to die.
No its not. Heavy armors penalties are going to be solved by CP passives. Light armor penalties are no problem for Sorcs but other magicka classes who can't stack shields or streak are in trouble.StarOfElyon wrote: »from what I have seen the light armor new passives are too good,
the medium armor is pretty balanced
and the heavy is terrible, I don't get the reason for taking more dmg from mag attacks on heavy armor,
and it's also slowing u down, making dodge roll expensive, It doomed to die.
No its not. Heavy armors penalties are going to be solved by CP passives. Light armor penalties are no problem for Sorcs but other magicka classes who can't stack shields or streak are in trouble.
Sorcerer will get crippled by the martial damage just the same. Do not live under the illusion that Sorcerers are completely untouchable or never get hit by anything. Gap closers are loved and popular, as are martial proc sets.
I wouldn't go further than saying, Sorcerer and Nightblade can make it work. Other classes will likely just tumble instantly unless they sacrifice several sets for tankiness; at which point you ask yourself the question: Why not choose heavy armor to begin with?
The problem you guys are having is that you are underestimating the power of a 4/3 light heavy armor build. With these changes we are likely going to see most Magicka classes shifting to a 4/3 or a 3/4 setup. With either of those setups you pretty much completely compensate for the % mitigation weaknesses caused by both armor types.
The main pain point I am seeing is that they are trying to do a rock/paper/scissors set up which would work fine but they have two damage categories and three armor categories. This awkwardness creates an imbalance where medium doesn't have a weakness but it also doesn't compensate for a weakness. The AOE mitigation helps but it doesn't really help with small-scale PvP fighting.
Magsorcs and Nightblades do not use light armor because we find it so awesome and love being fragile. We use it because it's nearly mandatory. Without enough penetration you just can not kill on these burst oriented classes. Neither Sorc nor Nightblade has the dps pressure, so they must use telegraphed burst combos and to make them hit for more than a wet noodle, we need light armor.
Neither class can give up so much penetration without having to rely on proc sets like Zaan for damage. With 4 light, you only have 3,7k penetration. A stamina build almost has that amount just for using a maul...
That is not nearly enough for more serious targets. A Nightblade in light has to make their assassin's will and soul harvest count. There is no use playing either class if you can't kill reliably. That's all these classes have to them after all.
If you use just 4 light, you can as well switch to playing a stam build who has nearly the same penetration and more weapon damage just because of 2h and gets extra weapon damage on top from medium armor.Edited by Dracane on January 31, 2021 8:28PMAuri-El is my lord,
Trinimac is my shield,
Magnus is my mind.2 -
SgtNuttzmeg✭✭✭✭SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »StarOfElyon wrote: »from what I have seen the light armor new passives are too good,
the medium armor is pretty balanced
and the heavy is terrible, I don't get the reason for taking more dmg from mag attacks on heavy armor,
and it's also slowing u down, making dodge roll expensive, It doomed to die.
No its not. Heavy armors penalties are going to be solved by CP passives. Light armor penalties are no problem for Sorcs but other magicka classes who can't stack shields or streak are in trouble.StarOfElyon wrote: »from what I have seen the light armor new passives are too good,
the medium armor is pretty balanced
and the heavy is terrible, I don't get the reason for taking more dmg from mag attacks on heavy armor,
and it's also slowing u down, making dodge roll expensive, It doomed to die.
No its not. Heavy armors penalties are going to be solved by CP passives. Light armor penalties are no problem for Sorcs but other magicka classes who can't stack shields or streak are in trouble.
Sorcerer will get crippled by the martial damage just the same. Do not live under the illusion that Sorcerers are completely untouchable or never get hit by anything. Gap closers are loved and popular, as are martial proc sets.
I wouldn't go further than saying, Sorcerer and Nightblade can make it work. Other classes will likely just tumble instantly unless they sacrifice several sets for tankiness; at which point you ask yourself the question: Why not choose heavy armor to begin with?
The problem you guys are having is that you are underestimating the power of a 4/3 light heavy armor build. With these changes we are likely going to see most Magicka classes shifting to a 4/3 or a 3/4 setup. With either of those setups you pretty much completely compensate for the % mitigation weaknesses caused by both armor types.
The main pain point I am seeing is that they are trying to do a rock/paper/scissors set up which would work fine but they have two damage categories and three armor categories. This awkwardness creates an imbalance where medium doesn't have a weakness but it also doesn't compensate for a weakness. The AOE mitigation helps but it doesn't really help with small-scale PvP fighting.
Magsorcs and Nightblades do not use light armor because we find it so awesome and love being fragile. We use it because it's nearly mandatory. Without enough penetration you just can not kill on these burst oriented classes. Neither Sorc nor Nightblade has the dps pressure, so they must use telegraphed burst combos and to make them hit for more than a wet noodle, we need light armor.
Neither class can give up so much penetration without having to rely on proc sets like Zaan for damage. With 4 light, you only have 3,7k penetration. A stamina build almost has that amount just for using a maul...
That is not nearly enough for more serious targets. A Nightblade in light has to make their assassin's will and soul harvest count. There is no use playing either class if you can't kill reliably. That's all these classes have to them after all.
If you use just 4 light, you can as well switch to playing a stam build who has nearly the same penetration and more weapon damage just because of 2h and gets extra weapon damage on top from medium armor.
You are also forgetting the 10% pen you get from using a Destro staff. Also most medium armor users next patch will not be running 5 or pieces of medium. They will likely switch to 4/3 or 4/2/1. Meaning their bonus damage will be less than last patch.
Sure mag sorcs have a really predictable rotation but that's because it is so powerful. Overload is one of the strongest ults in the game, mages Wraith is probably the best execute and streak keeps enemies on cc cooldown. Magsorcs have access to 3 delayed burst skills in their kits and another one if they run meteor. No other class has that many. Most classes have one source of delayed burst.
I think you would be surprised how much stronger Magicka classes will be next patch. They are getting 1k free spell dmg and spell dmg has always scaled better for Magicka abilities then weapon dmg does for Stam abilitiesLegions of Mordor Core
Cold0neFTBs0 -
StarOfElyon✭✭✭✭✭
✭SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »StarOfElyon wrote: »from what I have seen the light armor new passives are too good,
the medium armor is pretty balanced
and the heavy is terrible, I don't get the reason for taking more dmg from mag attacks on heavy armor,
and it's also slowing u down, making dodge roll expensive, It doomed to die.
No its not. Heavy armors penalties are going to be solved by CP passives. Light armor penalties are no problem for Sorcs but other magicka classes who can't stack shields or streak are in trouble.StarOfElyon wrote: »from what I have seen the light armor new passives are too good,
the medium armor is pretty balanced
and the heavy is terrible, I don't get the reason for taking more dmg from mag attacks on heavy armor,
and it's also slowing u down, making dodge roll expensive, It doomed to die.
No its not. Heavy armors penalties are going to be solved by CP passives. Light armor penalties are no problem for Sorcs but other magicka classes who can't stack shields or streak are in trouble.
Sorcerer will get crippled by the martial damage just the same. Do not live under the illusion that Sorcerers are completely untouchable or never get hit by anything. Gap closers are loved and popular, as are martial proc sets.
I wouldn't go further than saying, Sorcerer and Nightblade can make it work. Other classes will likely just tumble instantly unless they sacrifice several sets for tankiness; at which point you ask yourself the question: Why not choose heavy armor to begin with?
The problem you guys are having is that you are underestimating the power of a 4/3 light heavy armor build. With these changes we are likely going to see most Magicka classes shifting to a 4/3 or a 3/4 setup. With either of those setups you pretty much completely compensate for the % mitigation weaknesses caused by both armor types.
The main pain point I am seeing is that they are trying to do a rock/paper/scissors set up which would work fine but they have two damage categories and three armor categories. This awkwardness creates an imbalance where medium doesn't have a weakness but it also doesn't compensate for a weakness. The AOE mitigation helps but it doesn't really help with small-scale PvP fighting.
I was planning to do 3H-3L-1M myself on my main Templar. Or maybe 3H-4L. But that's pretty much
Heavy armor is just too necessary to pass on.0 -
StarOfElyon✭✭✭✭✭
✭SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »StarOfElyon wrote: »from what I have seen the light armor new passives are too good,
the medium armor is pretty balanced
and the heavy is terrible, I don't get the reason for taking more dmg from mag attacks on heavy armor,
and it's also slowing u down, making dodge roll expensive, It doomed to die.
No its not. Heavy armors penalties are going to be solved by CP passives. Light armor penalties are no problem for Sorcs but other magicka classes who can't stack shields or streak are in trouble.StarOfElyon wrote: »from what I have seen the light armor new passives are too good,
the medium armor is pretty balanced
and the heavy is terrible, I don't get the reason for taking more dmg from mag attacks on heavy armor,
and it's also slowing u down, making dodge roll expensive, It doomed to die.
No its not. Heavy armors penalties are going to be solved by CP passives. Light armor penalties are no problem for Sorcs but other magicka classes who can't stack shields or streak are in trouble.
Sorcerer will get crippled by the martial damage just the same. Do not live under the illusion that Sorcerers are completely untouchable or never get hit by anything. Gap closers are loved and popular, as are martial proc sets.
I wouldn't go further than saying, Sorcerer and Nightblade can make it work. Other classes will likely just tumble instantly unless they sacrifice several sets for tankiness; at which point you ask yourself the question: Why not choose heavy armor to begin with?
The problem you guys are having is that you are underestimating the power of a 4/3 light heavy armor build. With these changes we are likely going to see most Magicka classes shifting to a 4/3 or a 3/4 setup. With either of those setups you pretty much completely compensate for the % mitigation weaknesses caused by both armor types.
The main pain point I am seeing is that they are trying to do a rock/paper/scissors set up which would work fine but they have two damage categories and three armor categories. This awkwardness creates an imbalance where medium doesn't have a weakness but it also doesn't compensate for a weakness. The AOE mitigation helps but it doesn't really help with small-scale PvP fighting.
Magsorcs and Nightblades do not use light armor because we find it so awesome and love being fragile. We use it because it's nearly mandatory. Without enough penetration you just can not kill on these burst oriented classes. Neither Sorc nor Nightblade has the dps pressure, so they must use telegraphed burst combos and to make them hit for more than a wet noodle, we need light armor.
Neither class can give up so much penetration without having to rely on proc sets like Zaan for damage. With 4 light, you only have 3,7k penetration. A stamina build almost has that amount just for using a maul...
That is not nearly enough for more serious targets. A Nightblade in light has to make their assassin's will and soul harvest count. There is no use playing either class if you can't kill reliably. That's all these classes have to them after all.
If you use just 4 light, you can as well switch to playing a stam build who has nearly the same penetration and more weapon damage just because of 2h and gets extra weapon damage on top from medium armor.
You are also forgetting the 10% pen you get from using a Destro staff. Also most medium armor users next patch will not be running 5 or pieces of medium. They will likely switch to 4/3 or 4/2/1. Meaning their bonus damage will be less than last patch.
Sure mag sorcs have a really predictable rotation but that's because it is so powerful. Overload is one of the strongest ults in the game, mages Wraith is probably the best execute and streak keeps enemies on cc cooldown. Magsorcs have access to 3 delayed burst skills in their kits and another one if they run meteor. No other class has that many. Most classes have one source of delayed burst.
I think you would be surprised how much stronger Magicka classes will be next patch. They are getting 1k free spell dmg and spell dmg has always scaled better for Magicka abilities then weapon dmg does for Stam abilities
yeah, but I'm not looking forward to running into builds with 9k weapon damage, crazy vigors, and dizzy swings that hit harder than ever.0 -
Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »StarOfElyon wrote: »from what I have seen the light armor new passives are too good,
the medium armor is pretty balanced
and the heavy is terrible, I don't get the reason for taking more dmg from mag attacks on heavy armor,
and it's also slowing u down, making dodge roll expensive, It doomed to die.
No its not. Heavy armors penalties are going to be solved by CP passives. Light armor penalties are no problem for Sorcs but other magicka classes who can't stack shields or streak are in trouble.StarOfElyon wrote: »from what I have seen the light armor new passives are too good,
the medium armor is pretty balanced
and the heavy is terrible, I don't get the reason for taking more dmg from mag attacks on heavy armor,
and it's also slowing u down, making dodge roll expensive, It doomed to die.
No its not. Heavy armors penalties are going to be solved by CP passives. Light armor penalties are no problem for Sorcs but other magicka classes who can't stack shields or streak are in trouble.
Sorcerer will get crippled by the martial damage just the same. Do not live under the illusion that Sorcerers are completely untouchable or never get hit by anything. Gap closers are loved and popular, as are martial proc sets.
I wouldn't go further than saying, Sorcerer and Nightblade can make it work. Other classes will likely just tumble instantly unless they sacrifice several sets for tankiness; at which point you ask yourself the question: Why not choose heavy armor to begin with?
The problem you guys are having is that you are underestimating the power of a 4/3 light heavy armor build. With these changes we are likely going to see most Magicka classes shifting to a 4/3 or a 3/4 setup. With either of those setups you pretty much completely compensate for the % mitigation weaknesses caused by both armor types.
The main pain point I am seeing is that they are trying to do a rock/paper/scissors set up which would work fine but they have two damage categories and three armor categories. This awkwardness creates an imbalance where medium doesn't have a weakness but it also doesn't compensate for a weakness. The AOE mitigation helps but it doesn't really help with small-scale PvP fighting.
Magsorcs and Nightblades do not use light armor because we find it so awesome and love being fragile. We use it because it's nearly mandatory. Without enough penetration you just can not kill on these burst oriented classes. Neither Sorc nor Nightblade has the dps pressure, so they must use telegraphed burst combos and to make them hit for more than a wet noodle, we need light armor.
Neither class can give up so much penetration without having to rely on proc sets like Zaan for damage. With 4 light, you only have 3,7k penetration. A stamina build almost has that amount just for using a maul...
That is not nearly enough for more serious targets. A Nightblade in light has to make their assassin's will and soul harvest count. There is no use playing either class if you can't kill reliably. That's all these classes have to them after all.
If you use just 4 light, you can as well switch to playing a stam build who has nearly the same penetration and more weapon damage just because of 2h and gets extra weapon damage on top from medium armor.
You are also forgetting the 10% pen you get from using a Destro staff. Also most medium armor users next patch will not be running 5 or pieces of medium. They will likely switch to 4/3 or 4/2/1. Meaning their bonus damage will be less than last patch.
Sure mag sorcs have a really predictable rotation but that's because it is so powerful. Overload is one of the strongest ults in the game, mages Wraith is probably the best execute and streak keeps enemies on cc cooldown. Magsorcs have access to 3 delayed burst skills in their kits and another one if they run meteor. No other class has that many. Most classes have one source of delayed burst.
I think you would be surprised how much stronger Magicka classes will be next patch. They are getting 1k free spell dmg and spell dmg has always scaled better for Magicka abilities then weapon dmg does for Stam abilities
Destruction staff does not give penetration. Only a very small amount to destruction staff abilities, which is irrelevant, because it does not affect your important abilities at all.
Also, how does spell damage scale better than weapon damage when medium armor literally gives weapon damage %? Also, fighter's guild potentially.
I am genuinly curious and would like to know.Edited by Dracane on January 31, 2021 9:50PMAuri-El is my lord,
Trinimac is my shield,
Magnus is my mind.2 -
Extinct_Solo_Player✭✭✭✭✭This is my feedback to improve 2 passive abilities from PTS, you should remove the bracing passive from sword and shield and add a passive that's similar to 2h, dual wield where you get bonuses for equipping a sword, mace, axe. This would help diversity if you add bonuses for it. Another passive you could change is the heavy armor benefit of reducing damage taken by 2% per piece. Many people would complain about this passive as there is no incentive to choose the other armor type over damage reduction. I suggest to make heavy armor unique to your original plan of making it for brawlers. You could do this by changing it to " Increase damage done with sword and shield abilities by 2/3% percent per piece of heavy equipped"0 -
katorga✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »StarOfElyon wrote: »from what I have seen the light armor new passives are too good,
the medium armor is pretty balanced
and the heavy is terrible, I don't get the reason for taking more dmg from mag attacks on heavy armor,
and it's also slowing u down, making dodge roll expensive, It doomed to die.
No its not. Heavy armors penalties are going to be solved by CP passives. Light armor penalties are no problem for Sorcs but other magicka classes who can't stack shields or streak are in trouble.StarOfElyon wrote: »from what I have seen the light armor new passives are too good,
the medium armor is pretty balanced
and the heavy is terrible, I don't get the reason for taking more dmg from mag attacks on heavy armor,
and it's also slowing u down, making dodge roll expensive, It doomed to die.
No its not. Heavy armors penalties are going to be solved by CP passives. Light armor penalties are no problem for Sorcs but other magicka classes who can't stack shields or streak are in trouble.
Sorcerer will get crippled by the martial damage just the same. Do not live under the illusion that Sorcerers are completely untouchable or never get hit by anything. Gap closers are loved and popular, as are martial proc sets.
I wouldn't go further than saying, Sorcerer and Nightblade can make it work. Other classes will likely just tumble instantly unless they sacrifice several sets for tankiness; at which point you ask yourself the question: Why not choose heavy armor to begin with?
The problem you guys are having is that you are underestimating the power of a 4/3 light heavy armor build. With these changes we are likely going to see most Magicka classes shifting to a 4/3 or a 3/4 setup. With either of those setups you pretty much completely compensate for the % mitigation weaknesses caused by both armor types.
The main pain point I am seeing is that they are trying to do a rock/paper/scissors set up which would work fine but they have two damage categories and three armor categories. This awkwardness creates an imbalance where medium doesn't have a weakness but it also doesn't compensate for a weakness. The AOE mitigation helps but it doesn't really help with small-scale PvP fighting.
Magsorcs and Nightblades do not use light armor because we find it so awesome and love being fragile. We use it because it's nearly mandatory. Without enough penetration you just can not kill on these burst oriented classes. Neither Sorc nor Nightblade has the dps pressure, so they must use telegraphed burst combos and to make them hit for more than a wet noodle, we need light armor.
Neither class can give up so much penetration without having to rely on proc sets like Zaan for damage. With 4 light, you only have 3,7k penetration. A stamina build almost has that amount just for using a maul...
That is not nearly enough for more serious targets. A Nightblade in light has to make their assassin's will and soul harvest count. There is no use playing either class if you can't kill reliably. That's all these classes have to them after all.
If you use just 4 light, you can as well switch to playing a stam build who has nearly the same penetration and more weapon damage just because of 2h and gets extra weapon damage on top from medium armor.
You are also forgetting the 10% pen you get from using a Destro staff. Also most medium armor users next patch will not be running 5 or pieces of medium. They will likely switch to 4/3 or 4/2/1. Meaning their bonus damage will be less than last patch.
Sure mag sorcs have a really predictable rotation but that's because it is so powerful. Overload is one of the strongest ults in the game, mages Wraith is probably the best execute and streak keeps enemies on cc cooldown. Magsorcs have access to 3 delayed burst skills in their kits and another one if they run meteor. No other class has that many. Most classes have one source of delayed burst.
I think you would be surprised how much stronger Magicka classes will be next patch. They are getting 1k free spell dmg and spell dmg has always scaled better for Magicka abilities then weapon dmg does for Stam abilities
Destruction staff does not give penetration. Only a very small amount to destruction staff abilities, which is irrelevant, because it does not affect your important abilities at all.
Also, how does spell damage scale better than weapon damage when medium armor literally gives weapon damage %? Also, fighter's guild potentially.
I am genuinly curious and would like to know.
I agree. There is a reason why you see 27K stam/5K+ weapon damage builds and you rarely see 27K mag/5K+ spell damage builds. Either way, is it even relevant? At this point in the PTS I don't see why people would change from the current health/proc setup.
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Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »StarOfElyon wrote: »from what I have seen the light armor new passives are too good,
the medium armor is pretty balanced
and the heavy is terrible, I don't get the reason for taking more dmg from mag attacks on heavy armor,
and it's also slowing u down, making dodge roll expensive, It doomed to die.
No its not. Heavy armors penalties are going to be solved by CP passives. Light armor penalties are no problem for Sorcs but other magicka classes who can't stack shields or streak are in trouble.StarOfElyon wrote: »from what I have seen the light armor new passives are too good,
the medium armor is pretty balanced
and the heavy is terrible, I don't get the reason for taking more dmg from mag attacks on heavy armor,
and it's also slowing u down, making dodge roll expensive, It doomed to die.
No its not. Heavy armors penalties are going to be solved by CP passives. Light armor penalties are no problem for Sorcs but other magicka classes who can't stack shields or streak are in trouble.
Sorcerer will get crippled by the martial damage just the same. Do not live under the illusion that Sorcerers are completely untouchable or never get hit by anything. Gap closers are loved and popular, as are martial proc sets.
I wouldn't go further than saying, Sorcerer and Nightblade can make it work. Other classes will likely just tumble instantly unless they sacrifice several sets for tankiness; at which point you ask yourself the question: Why not choose heavy armor to begin with?
The problem you guys are having is that you are underestimating the power of a 4/3 light heavy armor build. With these changes we are likely going to see most Magicka classes shifting to a 4/3 or a 3/4 setup. With either of those setups you pretty much completely compensate for the % mitigation weaknesses caused by both armor types.
The main pain point I am seeing is that they are trying to do a rock/paper/scissors set up which would work fine but they have two damage categories and three armor categories. This awkwardness creates an imbalance where medium doesn't have a weakness but it also doesn't compWhensate for a weakness. The AOE mitigation helps but it doesn't really help with small-scale PvP fighting.
Magsorcs and Nightblades do not use light armor because we find it so awesome and love being fragile. We use it because it's nearly mandatory. Without enough penetration you just can not kill on these burst oriented classes. Neither Sorc nor Nightblade has the dps pressure, so they must use telegraphed burst combos and to make them hit for more than a wet noodle, we need light armor.
Neither class can give up so much penetration without having to rely on proc sets like Zaan for damage. With 4 light, you only have 3,7k penetration. A stamina build almost has that amount just for using a maul...
That is not nearly enough for more serious targets. A Nightblade in light has to make their assassin's will and soul harvest count. There is no use playing either class if you can't kill reliably. That's all these classes have to them after all.
If you use just 4 light, you can as well switch to playing a stam build who has nearly the same penetration and more weapon damage just because of 2h and gets extra weapon damage on top from medium armor.
You are also forgetting the 10% pen you get from using a Destro staff. Also most medium armor users next patch will not be running 5 or pieces of medium. They will likely switch to 4/3 or 4/2/1. Meaning their bonus damage will be less than last patch.
Sure mag sorcs have a really predictable rotation but that's because it is so powerful. Overload is one of the strongest ults in the game, mages Wraith is probably the best execute and streak keeps enemies on cc cooldown. Magsorcs have access to 3 delayed burst skills in their kits and another one if they run meteor. No other class has that many. Most classes have one source of delayed burst.
I think you would be surprised how much stronger Magicka classes will be next patch. They are getting 1k free spell dmg and spell dmg has always scaled better for Magicka abilities then weapon dmg does for Stam abilities
Destruction staff does not give penetration. Only a very small amount to destruction staff abilities, which is irrelevant, because it does not affect your important abilities at all.
Also, how does spell damage scale better than weapon damage when medium armor literally gives weapon damage %? Also, fighter's guild potentially.
I am genuinly curious and would like to know.
I agree. There is a reason why you see 27K stam/5K+ weapon damage builds and you rarely see 27K mag/5K+ spell damage builds. Either way, is it even relevant? At this point in the PTS I don't see why people would change from the current health/proc setup.
Why did you make this claim then though?
I was already getting eager to learn something new.
When heavy armor goes live with these buffs, you are right, nothing will change.Auri-El is my lord,
Trinimac is my shield,
Magnus is my mind.0 -
ExistingRug61✭✭✭✭
Ooo, I’ll jump in here, because this was something that interested me so I looked into it a bit further.SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »The main pain point I am seeing is that they are trying to do a rock/paper/scissors set up which would work fine but they have two damage categories and three armor categories. This awkwardness creates an imbalance where medium doesn't have a weakness but it also doesn't compensate for a weakness.
Initially I thought along the same lines as you, but it turns out that if we look at just the damage type weakness/bonuses on the armors in isolation, it does balance out and does result in an even paper/scissor/rock like effect.
BIG CAVEAT: This is looking at just the +/- damage received effects and ignoring everything else.
I was a bit surprised as I though the issue with two damage types vs three armor types was going to prevent that as well, but it still works out.
Overview of how I came to this conclusion:
Consider the pvp population comprising of 4 damage/armor build combinations, being
Mag in Light (ML), Stam in Medium (SM), Mag in Heavy (MH), Stam in Heavy (SH)
For simplicities sake I was ignoring hybrids or off meta builds or the potential to mix and match armor types. While mixing types is definitely possible, what I was trying to establish was if one type simply became the strongest, and considering pure builds is enough for that.
Look at each matchup between the above, and quantify the advantage/disadvantage each build has in that matchup. I quantified it as a +1 if the build type either has a bonus to damage done or a reduction in damage received, or a +2 if it gets both, and then -1 and -2 for the reverse, and if there was positive and negative these cancel out. So
ML: 0 vs ML, -1 vs SM, +2 vs MH, 0 vs SH
SM: +1 vs ML, 0 vs SM, -1 vs MH, -1 vs SH
MH: -2 vs ML, 1 vs SM, 0 vs MH, 2 vs SH
SH: 0 vs ML, 1 vs SM, -2 vs MH, 0 vs SH
So now if we make some assumptions about the player population, being that players will chase meta and thus be drawn to a build if has a positive matchup against more of the population than it has a negative matchup (ie: if players are on a build that has a disadvantage against more of the population than advantage, they will likely be motivated to swap to one where they instead have advantage against more of the population). How I modelled this gets a bit mathsy, so I’ll summarise and spoiler it as its not really relevant to the outcome but someone may be interested.To model this sort of behaviour I treated the population as a system of ordinary differential equations (ODEs) of each build’s population. The basic idea was that the rate of change to one of the build types is proportional to the amount of the current population that that build has an advantage against minus the amount of population it has a disadvantage against (with the double advantages/disadvantages counting for double).This results in the following population distribution:
Ie: d(ML)/dt = 0*ML - 1*SM + 2*MH + 0*SH etc
This produces 4 ODEs dependent on the 4 variables (each builds population) which can then be treated in matrix from allowing eigenvalue/eigenvector analysis to find if the system is stable and if so what populations achieve this. In this case this result would be the population that the bonuses/penalties would push the pvp population to achieve long term. The other possibility, would have been any form of instability or something that simply pushes the population to an extreme (ie: everyone being the same build).
In conjunction with some other constraints, ie: total population is fixed there was one result that came out of this, being the one below.
And, yes, perhaps I do have too much time on my hands if I am doing things like applying ODEs and eigenvector analysis to a tiny part of an online game, but I was interested and also intrigued as this was one of those rare cases where some random maths I learned once could be applied.
ML = 1/3 of total pop
SM = 1/3 of total pop
MH = 1/6 of total pop
SH = 1/6 of total pop
At this population distribution, everyone in the population has equal advantage and disadvantage against the population as a whole, so no-one is encouraged to change builds anymore for meta chasing, ie: this is the steady state population distribution. Interestingly, in the above population, there is an even split of each armor type and each damage type.
Additionally, it should be noted that the system would converge to this, ie: if for some reason there is an over-population of one of the build types, the system would eventually correct back to the above.
So yeah, that.
Conclusion: The +/- damage received passives in isolation are balanced and promote an even distribution of each armor type and stat type.
Real considerations: These bonuses are just a small part of an otherwise multitude of effects so considering them in isolation is likely in no way reflective of what will actually happen. Also, this assume that each weakness/resistance is equal in worth, but this may also be a flawed assumption, for instance Light armours weakness to physical damage may lead to it being very susceptible to oneshots with no time to react whereas heavy’s weakness to magicka may not be as bad as due to heavy’s other features they may not be able to be oneshot and hence have time to react and turn things around.Edited by ExistingRug61 on February 1, 2021 3:17AM0