Ring of the Pale Order Rework Idea

TonyDemonLord · October 2020

The Ring of the Pale Order in its current form is way overpowered. You can get an unlimited amount of heals with no cool down so here is my new proposed idea

Ring of the Pale Order
Restore 15% of the damage you deal as health for a maximum of 3000 health per second. You cannot be healed by anyone but yourself

This limits the amount of healing to 3000 per second so that there is no absurd healing amounts. That max should be easy to reach for both PVE and PVP. It will also make healers still viable if they can heal over 3000 a second.

Anyone have any ideas that might be better than mine? Should the limit be increased from 3k?

Gundug · October 2020

From patch notes 6.2.3:

Right(sic) of the Pale Order:
This set now heals for 18% of your damage done, up from 15%.
Decreased the healing cap to 2750, down from 3750.

Developer Comment:
With these adjustments, the set should perform slightly better for sustained pressure builds and PvP in general, while seeing reductions in power from heavy hitting burst attacks in PvE.

Isn’t this pretty much what you are suggesting?

Qbiken · October 2020

Gundug wrote: »

From patch notes 6.2.3:

Right(sic) of the Pale Order:
This set now heals for 18% of your damage done, up from 15%.
Decreased the healing cap to 2750, down from 3750.

Developer Comment:
With these adjustments, the set should perform slightly better for sustained pressure builds and PvP in general, while seeing reductions in power from heavy hitting burst attacks in PvE.

Isn’t this pretty much what you are suggesting?

What OP suggests is that the ring gets an internal 1 second cooldown. Even with the nerfs the ring is a bit too strong. Limiting it to heal the users once/second makes it more balanced without making it useless.

relentless_turnip · October 2020

I would say no, I am really looking forward to using this in PvP. Where the healing will be negligible... In its current iteration you would need to hit someone for 15k in one hit to get the 2750, which if you are unaware is rare and very difficult. So it not having a cooldown is its appeal on a pressure/dot build. Your suggestion would mean 20k hit to get a 3k heal.... Which I personally have never done.

If your suggestion could be isolated to pve then I could be on board, but as you know that won't happen.

Gundug · October 2020

There is no cooldown built into the heal on the ring? I haven’t actually tested it on the PTS, and assumed it was basically a gear version of Critical Surge, which is already an extremely strong heal with a 1 second cooldown.

If it’s going to be oriented toward group play, which seems to defeat the purpose of the ring, I could see the suggested cooldown being added, cutting the heal to maybe 2000-2500 per second and allowing outside healing. In that sort of situation, you are already giving up damage for more security. If it’s oriented toward solo play, I would be inclined to leave it as it is.

I’ll have to actually test it and see how much I can stack damage for healing with no cooldown. It seems like that would result in ludicrously high healing.

Vayln_Ninetails · October 2020

Qbiken wrote: »

Gundug wrote: »

From patch notes 6.2.3:

Right(sic) of the Pale Order:
This set now heals for 18% of your damage done, up from 15%.
Decreased the healing cap to 2750, down from 3750.

Developer Comment:
With these adjustments, the set should perform slightly better for sustained pressure builds and PvP in general, while seeing reductions in power from heavy hitting burst attacks in PvE.

Isn’t this pretty much what you are suggesting?

What OP suggests is that the ring gets an internal 1 second cooldown. Even with the nerfs the ring is a bit too strong. Limiting it to heal the users once/second makes it more balanced without making it useless.

Isn't the point of a mythic item to be strong and viable? It isn't going to be BiS as you have to sacrifice a 5 piece set bonus for it. But it would provide some MUCH needed viability to vampires.

Any nerfs to the ring is like an indirect nerf to vampires. Again.

Gundug · October 2020

After testing the ring on the PTS, it is definitely a strong heal, but with my setup, which was just a quick and dirty bow/bow stamina necromancer, it was far from keeping me invincible. I didn’t like having to give up a ring slot for a heal, but I didn’t have to put any healing skills on my bars either. My average healing tick was around 500, with peaks as high as a little over 3300. This translated to between 1k to, very rarely, as high as 3k per second total healing during boss fights.

Running through veteran Maelstrom, it took a lot of pressure off of having to actively worry about healing skills, and that could potentially help sustain and survival. It did little to prevent heavy bursts that deliver a lot of damage within a second or less. On death recaps I would see maybe a couple heals in a second, but for 150, 300, etc. it’s not like this thing was giving me 3k every time I damaged something.

Just from my own limited experience and skill level, I could see this being useful for certain solo builds. I wouldn’t want to use this in veteran trials since it messes up most of my setups and with the amount of reliable healing I was getting, I don’t see surviving very well without a proper heal from a dedicated healer, especially in stages where I’m not damaging anything while being hit. I don’t PVP enough to make a judgement about how it works there.

I would be interested in seeing the healing numbers other people could share. At the moment though, I don’t see a reason to adjust this item.

idk · October 2020

Gundug wrote: »

After testing the ring on the PTS, it is definitely a strong heal, but with my setup, which was just a quick and dirty bow/bow stamina necromancer, it was far from keeping me invincible. I didn’t like having to give up a ring slot for a heal, but I didn’t have to put any healing skills on my bars either. My average healing tick was around 500, with peaks as high as a little over 3300. This translated to between 1k to, very rarely, as high as 3k per second total healing during boss fights.

Running through veteran Maelstrom, it took a lot of pressure off of having to actively worry about healing skills, and that could potentially help sustain and survival. It did little to prevent heavy bursts that deliver a lot of damage within a second or less. On death recaps I would see maybe a couple heals in a second, but for 150, 300, etc. it’s not like this thing was giving me 3k every time I damaged something.

Just from my own limited experience and skill level, I could see this being useful for certain solo builds. I wouldn’t want to use this in veteran trials since it messes up most of my setups and with the amount of reliable healing I was getting, I don’t see surviving very well without a proper heal from a dedicated healer, especially in stages where I’m not damaging anything while being hit. I don’t PVP enough to make a judgement about how it works there.

I would be interested in seeing the healing numbers other people could share. At the moment though, I don’t see a reason to adjust this item.

This is interesting feedback that is based on actual testing.

@TonyDemonLord Is your feedback based on actual testing or from the patch notes? If it is from actual testing please enlighten us with some of that information. THx.

Xebov · October 2020

Im not sure how ppl always come to the idea that the ring will replace healers. I guess discussions about this item would be alot easier if ppl would look at the whole game instead of their small little circle.

YandereGirlfriend · October 2020

Another one of these threads?

This item has already been heavily nerfed, but some, it seems, will not rest until it finally goes "Full Thrassians" into uselessness.

Critical Surge is a fine skill (it also gives you Major Brutality/Sorcery and 2% Weapon/Spell Damage) but I would never sacrifice a monster set or a 5-piece set in order to slot it. And to disable outside healing for the privilege of gaining a watered-down version of Critical Surge, absolutely not.

This proposal would dumpster the set.

Saubon · October 2020

TonyDemonLord wrote: »

The Ring of the Pale Order in its current form is way overpowered. You can get an unlimited amount of heals with no cool down so here is my new proposed idea

Ring of the Pale Order
Restore 15% of the damage you deal as health for a maximum of 3000 health per second. You cannot be healed by anyone but yourself

This limits the amount of healing to 3000 per second so that there is no absurd healing amounts. That max should be easy to reach for both PVE and PVP. It will also make healers still viable if they can heal over 3000 a second.

Anyone have any ideas that might be better than mine? Should the limit be increased from 3k?

3k hps is quite bad bargain for innability to be healed by others and a lost of a monster set. I would suggest removing "You cannot be healed by anyone but yourself" in this case. This would make it similar to surge in exchange for a monster set or 5p set.

Vevvev · October 2020

I'm with YandereGirlfriend on this. There are already so many offensive heals in this game as well as abilities like Critical Surge the only people who would be running this set are solo players! So many healers are terrified of this set but they don't realize that by slotting it a DPS is throwing away a 5 piece bonus, and if I was a Trial or Group leader I'd kick them out of the group instantly. Gimping yourself to get heals when your group already has a healer is stupid and would not fly at all, especially when it stops you from getting buffs from sets like Spell Power Cure so its doubly stupid to run this.

And if you're worried about PVP this set will only shine in 1v1 duels since in AvA zones you're shooting yourself in the foot by taking away the advantage of cross healing. Also when in a battering ram or after getting hit with a coldfire siege you alone have to heal through that damage.... good luck!

Sephyr · October 2020

Vevvev wrote: »

I'm with YandereGirlfriend on this. There are already so many offensive heals in this game as well as abilities like Critical Surge the only people who would be running this set are solo players! So many healers are terrified of this set but they don't realize that by slotting it a DPS is throwing away a 5 piece bonus, and if I was a Trial or Group leader I'd kick them out of the group instantly. Gimping yourself to get heals when your group already has a healer is stupid and would not fly at all, especially when it stops you from getting buffs from sets like Spell Power Cure so its doubly stupid to run this.

And if you're worried about PVP this set will only shine in 1v1 duels since in AvA zones you're shooting yourself in the foot by taking away the advantage of cross healing. Also when in a battering ram or after getting hit with a coldfire siege you alone have to heal through that damage.... good luck!

Same. Considering that this ring is mostly for solo gameplay and the fact that a certain skill line is being shoehorned into that stance, it'll probably be worn mostly by vampires who want to use Blood for Blood. At the sacrifice of a set. In group gameplay? Unless they knew what they were doing, it's far better to rely on healers. I don't understand where this insecurity over a ring is coming from, but healers aren't going anywhere. That ring is going to require some serious skill to pull off any kind of decent gameplay in a group setting, let alone large scaled AvA scenarios, like you said. Coldfire? Yeesh. Butter my biscuit and call me toasted breakfast.

Vevvev · October 2020

Sephyr wrote: »

Coldfire? Yeesh. Butter my biscuit and call me toasted breakfast.

Yeah, and I actually do have experience with getting hit with a coldfire weapon with only offensive heals. Was trying to find a use for Vampiric Drain and in one of my tests I replaced Coagulating Blood with it. I usually pair Coagulating Blood and Radiating Regeneration and it helps me survive basically everything, but Vampiric Drain required a target... and I didn't have one. Radiating Regeneration only did so much and by the 2nd tick of the Coldfire DoT I was dead.

Sephyr · October 2020

Vevvev wrote: »

Sephyr wrote: »

Coldfire? Yeesh. Butter my biscuit and call me toasted breakfast.

Yeah, and I actually do have experience with getting hit with a coldfire weapon with only offensive heals. Was trying to find a use for Vampiric Drain and in one of my tests I replaced Coagulating Blood with it. I usually pair Coagulating Blood and Radiating Regeneration and it helps me survive basically everything, but Vampiric Drain required a target... and I didn't have one. Radiating Regeneration only did so much and by the 2nd tick of the Coldfire DoT I was dead.

I didn't do much better without some oomphy heals either when I got caught on the edge of one. Dare I say though, the ring really has me wanting to do some Imperial Sewer hunting. Maybe some boss smashing there and get Malacath's Band of Brutality Core for the umpteenth time.

Vevvev · October 2020

Sephyr wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

Sephyr wrote: »

Coldfire? Yeesh. Butter my biscuit and call me toasted breakfast.

Yeah, and I actually do have experience with getting hit with a coldfire weapon with only offensive heals. Was trying to find a use for Vampiric Drain and in one of my tests I replaced Coagulating Blood with it. I usually pair Coagulating Blood and Radiating Regeneration and it helps me survive basically everything, but Vampiric Drain required a target... and I didn't have one. Radiating Regeneration only did so much and by the 2nd tick of the Coldfire DoT I was dead.

I didn't do much better without some oomphy heals either when I got caught on the edge of one. Dare I say though, the ring really has me wanting to do some Imperial Sewer hunting. Maybe some boss smashing there and get Malacath's Band of Brutality Core for the umpteenth time.

Hopefully you're not planning to combine the two. You can only have one mythic equipped at a time.

TonyDemonLord · October 2020

idk wrote: »

Gundug wrote: »

After testing the ring on the PTS, it is definitely a strong heal, but with my setup, which was just a quick and dirty bow/bow stamina necromancer, it was far from keeping me invincible. I didn’t like having to give up a ring slot for a heal, but I didn’t have to put any healing skills on my bars either. My average healing tick was around 500, with peaks as high as a little over 3300. This translated to between 1k to, very rarely, as high as 3k per second total healing during boss fights.

Running through veteran Maelstrom, it took a lot of pressure off of having to actively worry about healing skills, and that could potentially help sustain and survival. It did little to prevent heavy bursts that deliver a lot of damage within a second or less. On death recaps I would see maybe a couple heals in a second, but for 150, 300, etc. it’s not like this thing was giving me 3k every time I damaged something.

Just from my own limited experience and skill level, I could see this being useful for certain solo builds. I wouldn’t want to use this in veteran trials since it messes up most of my setups and with the amount of reliable healing I was getting, I don’t see surviving very well without a proper heal from a dedicated healer, especially in stages where I’m not damaging anything while being hit. I don’t PVP enough to make a judgement about how it works there.

I would be interested in seeing the healing numbers other people could share. At the moment though, I don’t see a reason to adjust this item.

This is interesting feedback that is based on actual testing.

@TonyDemonLord Is your feedback based on actual testing or from the patch notes? If it is from actual testing please enlighten us with some of that information. THx.

@idk My feedback is based on other people I have heard from and Alcast (

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alnT3BZ5qPo).
I can’t test these kind of things because I’m an Xbox player, though I really wish they added PTS to Consoles.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Another one of these threads?

This item has already been heavily nerfed, but some, it seems, will not rest until it finally goes "Full Thrassians" into uselessness.

Critical Surge is a fine skill (it also gives you Major Brutality/Sorcery and 2% Weapon/Spell Damage) but I would never sacrifice a monster set or a 5-piece set in order to slot it. And to disable outside healing for the privilege of gaining a watered-down version of Critical Surge, absolutely not.

This proposal would dumpster the set.

@YandereGirlfriend I don’t want this set nerfed because I have pretty much played the entire game solo so I would love for it to stay the way it is now, I think this item is heavily needed for solo players. I’m afraid that this item will get nerfed like thrassian stranglers because they are almost certainly going to nerf it again so I was merely trying to suggest an idea where it won’t be so bad. Also i asked if anyone else had better ideas so if you have any better ones then by all means do say so.

idk · October 2020

TonyDemonLord wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Gundug wrote: »

After testing the ring on the PTS, it is definitely a strong heal, but with my setup, which was just a quick and dirty bow/bow stamina necromancer, it was far from keeping me invincible. I didn’t like having to give up a ring slot for a heal, but I didn’t have to put any healing skills on my bars either. My average healing tick was around 500, with peaks as high as a little over 3300. This translated to between 1k to, very rarely, as high as 3k per second total healing during boss fights.

Running through veteran Maelstrom, it took a lot of pressure off of having to actively worry about healing skills, and that could potentially help sustain and survival. It did little to prevent heavy bursts that deliver a lot of damage within a second or less. On death recaps I would see maybe a couple heals in a second, but for 150, 300, etc. it’s not like this thing was giving me 3k every time I damaged something.

Just from my own limited experience and skill level, I could see this being useful for certain solo builds. I wouldn’t want to use this in veteran trials since it messes up most of my setups and with the amount of reliable healing I was getting, I don’t see surviving very well without a proper heal from a dedicated healer, especially in stages where I’m not damaging anything while being hit. I don’t PVP enough to make a judgement about how it works there.

I would be interested in seeing the healing numbers other people could share. At the moment though, I don’t see a reason to adjust this item.

This is interesting feedback that is based on actual testing.

@TonyDemonLord Is your feedback based on actual testing or from the patch notes? If it is from actual testing please enlighten us with some of that information. THx.

My feedback is based on other people I have heard from and Alcast.
I can’t test these kind of things because I’m an Xbox player, though I really wish they added PTS to Consoles.

Thx for that update. No offense, but the OP did not seem to be based on anything other than reading the patch notes. It may be beneficial to divulge what Alcast has discussed. Seriously, an opinion that is actually based on real information, and well though ofc, has a significantly better chance to get Zos' attention.

Sephyr · October 2020

Vevvev wrote: »

Sephyr wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

Sephyr wrote: »

Coldfire? Yeesh. Butter my biscuit and call me toasted breakfast.

Yeah, and I actually do have experience with getting hit with a coldfire weapon with only offensive heals. Was trying to find a use for Vampiric Drain and in one of my tests I replaced Coagulating Blood with it. I usually pair Coagulating Blood and Radiating Regeneration and it helps me survive basically everything, but Vampiric Drain required a target... and I didn't have one. Radiating Regeneration only did so much and by the 2nd tick of the Coldfire DoT I was dead.

I didn't do much better without some oomphy heals either when I got caught on the edge of one. Dare I say though, the ring really has me wanting to do some Imperial Sewer hunting. Maybe some boss smashing there and get Malacath's Band of Brutality Core for the umpteenth time.

Hopefully you're not planning to combine the two. You can only have one mythic equipped at a time.

Oh no. It's the only Mythic that seems to want me to have copies of it. xD I don't have much uses for that ring yet, since all my set procs rely on crit.

I was farming for the other one for the chest piece for a different character, but I haven't found it yet.

ccfeeling · October 2020

Use the op ring instead of trial healer.

Show us how op it is in end game area.

Olupajmibanan · October 2020

ccfeeling wrote: »

Use the op ring instead of trial healer.

Show us how op it is in end game area.

I really want to see hard mode Lord Falgravn in 10 DD + 2 tank setup

Will wipe the floor with them and then throw the wipe into bottomless trash bin.

Calm_Fury · October 2020

This is one of the problems of doing "Tooltip Theorycrafting" or basing opinions in one of the top players in the game...

As others, I actually tested the latest version of the ring in vMA, vVH and some world bosses and dungeons. I consider myself an average-to-good player (I main tank, but do some DPS. I have 3 Flawless but most of my vMA runs end with 10-14 vitality). Here is what I saw:

The ring is good as long as you are and can be offensive
The ring will NOT make you invincible
The ring will NOT prevent one shots
The ring will NOT allow you to skip mechanics you wouldn't skip without it
The ring is NOT worth it in most group content with a minimally competent group
The ring DOES take some of the pressure of active healing in places like vMA
The ring DOES make some content more forgiving for errors like forgetting to up some buffs

The ring shines in solo content when you can be offensive. It really is a lot like Crit Surge, but you are giving up a 5-pice or moster-set for it.

For players that do not have Alcast-level uptime on dots and rotation, the heal will not be as overpowered as he makes it seem.

You can drop a heal after you are used to the content, sacrificing one 5-piece bonus for a set or monster set. For me, it is totally balanced.

The ring will NOT save you from Starfall in vet Hel Ra, for example, or other mechanics that do damage that you need to block or when you can't hit something consistently. I only see some players using this to PUG dungeons, but nothing more. It will be a solo content ring for the most part.

wishlist14 · November 2020

Since this ring is intended for solo play why the heck would you think it would make healers obsolete ? It makes no sense to me sorry not meant to offend with my opinion ....

Synssaturdayy9 · December 2020

i think the ring is fine how it is.

cyberjanet · December 2020

The day I got Thrassian's, it was nerfed into Oblivion so I never got to learn to use it.
I spent two and a half weeks, an hour or more a day, trying to get the last piece of Pale Order in the hope it will help me in vMA which I've been stuck on for three years at the final boss.
Sure, nerf it. What the hell. Why do we need these mythic items anyway?

idk · December 2020

Calm_Fury wrote: »

This is one of the problems of doing "Tooltip Theorycrafting" or basing opinions in one of the top players in the game...

As others, I actually tested the latest version of the ring in vMA, vVH and some world bosses and dungeons. I consider myself an average-to-good player (I main tank, but do some DPS. I have 3 Flawless but most of my vMA runs end with 10-14 vitality). Here is what I saw:
The ring is good as long as you are and can be offensive

The ring will NOT make you invincible

The ring will NOT prevent one shots

The ring will NOT allow you to skip mechanics you wouldn't skip without it

The ring is NOT worth it in most group content with a minimally competent group

The ring DOES take some of the pressure of active healing in places like vMA

The ring DOES make some content more forgiving for errors like forgetting to up some buffs

The ring shines in solo content when you can be offensive. It really is a lot like Crit Surge, but you are giving up a 5-pice or moster-set for it.

For players that do not have Alcast-level uptime on dots and rotation, the heal will not be as overpowered as he makes it seem.

You can drop a heal after you are used to the content, sacrificing one 5-piece bonus for a set or monster set. For me, it is totally balanced.

The ring will NOT save you from Starfall in vet Hel Ra, for example, or other mechanics that do damage that you need to block or when you can't hit something consistently. I only see some players using this to PUG dungeons, but nothing more. It will be a solo content ring for the most part.

This is so true. Especially that most players will not get anywhere near the same results that Alcast can get.

Stahlor · December 2020

The ring is totally fine like it is. Nobody in PVP and PVE is really complaining about that ring, so stop crying for nerfs!

VampireLordLover99 · December 2020

TonyDemonLord wrote: »

The Ring of the Pale Order in its current form is way overpowered. You can get an unlimited amount of heals with no cool down so here is my new proposed idea

Ring of the Pale Order
Restore 15% of the damage you deal as health for a maximum of 3000 health per second. You cannot be healed by anyone but yourself

This limits the amount of healing to 3000 per second so that there is no absurd healing amounts. That max should be easy to reach for both PVE and PVP. It will also make healers still viable if they can heal over 3000 a second.

Anyone have any ideas that might be better than mine? Should the limit be increased from 3k?

The ring is fine.

If you think this ring is OP then I don't know what to tell you quite frankly.

Sounds like a nerf thread for no reason. Unless you don't want solo players to have something for whatever reason.

Norith_Gilheart_Flail · December 2020

I think it's fine as is for solo players, it's purpose is to make you a one man army with the caveat you do not receive heals from others, and nor should you be to receive buffs from others. I think that would be fair.

It's a shame this game does not split property pvp from pve, but I would rather see mythic items unusable in arena or cyrodiil than have pvpers further impact what should be a mythical item.