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15% or so increased PVE Tank incoming damage intended?

  • thadjarvis
    thadjarvis
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    Noting all the calculations above have the same resists across live and pts. They are going up.

    Tank mitigation is barely changing. Test your builds on https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor easily. I see a 0.2% loss of mitigation on build which is nothing. Though yes, Minor Maim being weaker means tanks would incur more damage. That's pretty much the net change.

    There are also quite a bit of buffs for tanks that are being overlooked:
    1) You will have better sustain, ~200 extra recovery buffed or basically a free jewelry enchant.
    2) You're healing is up due to courage buffs. Several classes use stam/mag scaling heals to supplement or replace health scaling skill.
    3) Major Maim uptime seems easy to maintain. Sets like PA and Yoln could be back barred if the group needs that maim.
    4) Alkosh can be tossed in some encounters. Any of Galenwee, Worms, Ebon, TP, etc are a gain in useful stats over Alkosh.
    5) Classes that have minor ward get a mitigation buff. Through combat prayer all tanks will get the buff in encounters in which healers need to heal the tank. So, all tanks will have it most of the time if it matters anyway.

    In the end it's just change. You probably won't notice it as a tank all the while enjoying better sustain among other things.
  • Juhasow
    Juhasow
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    delkurz wrote: »
    My Current Set up with 5-1-1 armor, Yolna Alkosh with nothing other than Defensive stance being able to be considered adding to mitigation out of the current norm.

    Live

    Total 0.5881*0.8*0.9*0.5*0.9*0.85*0.92*0.95*0.88*0.79=0.098 aka 90.2% Total mitigation

    PTS


    Total 0.5881*0.8*0.9*0.5*0.9*0.95*0.95*0.95*0.88*0.79=0.1135 aka 88.65% total mitigation.

    So we got a difference in 1.55% total damage mitigation from those numbers as a basically meta tank

    Yes, 1.55% more absolute damage, which when starting at 9.8% damage taken, as @MudcrabAttack mentioned, is a ~15% increase in damage taken from live to PTS. If you take X damage on live, you will take about X*1.15 on U28 based on all the above.

    Percentages are tricky tool. By Your logic if there would be someone with 99% dmg mitigation and it would be nerfed to 98% it would be 1% more total dmg which when starting at 1% dmg taken is a 100% increase in damage taken. If he was taking X dmg then he would start to take X*2 dmg. Holy moly 2 times more dmg ! Does that mean said player would start dropping dead left and right ? Of course not because his dmg mitigation is very high anyway. When playing with percentages and using small numbers it's very easy to get high percentage values out of them. For a tank in ESO 15% more dmg taken is nothing because his base dmg taken is very low.
    Edited by Juhasow on October 26, 2020 5:01PM
  • paulsimonps
    paulsimonps
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    Juhasow wrote: »
    delkurz wrote: »
    My Current Set up with 5-1-1 armor, Yolna Alkosh with nothing other than Defensive stance being able to be considered adding to mitigation out of the current norm.

    Live

    Total 0.5881*0.8*0.9*0.5*0.9*0.85*0.92*0.95*0.88*0.79=0.098 aka 90.2% Total mitigation

    PTS


    Total 0.5881*0.8*0.9*0.5*0.9*0.95*0.95*0.95*0.88*0.79=0.1135 aka 88.65% total mitigation.

    So we got a difference in 1.55% total damage mitigation from those numbers as a basically meta tank

    Yes, 1.55% more absolute damage, which when starting at 9.8% damage taken, as @MudcrabAttack mentioned, is a ~15% increase in damage taken from live to PTS. If you take X damage on live, you will take about X*1.15 on U28 based on all the above.

    Percentages are tricky tool. By Your logic if there would be someone with 99% dmg mitigation and it would be nerfed to 98% it would be 1% more total dmg which when starting at 1% dmg taken is a 100% increase in damage taken. If he was taking X dmg then he would start to take X*2 dmg. Holy moly 2 times more dmg ! Does that mean said player would start dropping dead left and right ? Of course not because his dmg mitigation is very high anyway. When playing with percentages and using small numbers it's very easy to get high percentage values out of them. For a tank in ESO 15% more dmg taken is nothing because his base dmg taken is very low.

    THIS RIGHT HERE ^
  • Tannus15
    Tannus15
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    Tanking is always about survival first. Every tank works out what sets they need to not die and then as they get more experienced their setup is less and less about survival and more about group support.

    If someone finds these changes too much then they can easily swap to a more "selfish" set until they get used to the increase in incoming damage.
  • Saubon
    Saubon
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    Tannus15 wrote: »
    Tanking is always about survival first. Every tank works out what sets they need to not die and then as they get more experienced their setup is less and less about survival and more about group support.

    If someone finds these changes too much then they can easily swap to a more "selfish" set until they get used to the increase in incoming damage.

    I would say for inexperienced tanks sustain is more important than resistances. If you mess up or if you are out of resources as a tank you are dead anyways and it doesn't matter if you have 27k or capped resistances.
    Resistances are good if your healers are bit on a slower side, so if you are running with more casual groups, then yes, run more defensive setup
  • AyaDark
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    What make tank selfish? He do his job. Are you not selfish DD ? Do you heal tank ?

    Tank is "selfish" because he get not enough heal and support, this sets give him something, that party do not

    It is not tank selfish - tank is OK, it is just a bad group.

    And now it is bad group + 15% damage more.
  • Olupajmibanan
    Olupajmibanan
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    AyaDark wrote: »
    What make tank selfish? He do his job. Are you not selfish DD ? Do you heal tank ?

    Tank is "selfish" because he get not enough heal and support, this sets give him something, that party do not

    It is not tank selfish - tank is OK, it is just a bad group.

    And now it is bad group + 15% damage more.

    Call it "Selfish Tank", "Tank doing his Job", "Whatever Tank of Whatever", we always refer to the same thing - tank wearing things that do not support the rest of his group. Do not slip this discussion into some word game. We are discussing serious matters.
    Edited by Olupajmibanan on October 27, 2020 7:37AM
  • delkurz
    delkurz
    Juhasow wrote: »
    delkurz wrote: »
    My Current Set up with 5-1-1 armor, Yolna Alkosh with nothing other than Defensive stance being able to be considered adding to mitigation out of the current norm.

    Live

    Total 0.5881*0.8*0.9*0.5*0.9*0.85*0.92*0.95*0.88*0.79=0.098 aka 90.2% Total mitigation

    PTS


    Total 0.5881*0.8*0.9*0.5*0.9*0.95*0.95*0.95*0.88*0.79=0.1135 aka 88.65% total mitigation.

    So we got a difference in 1.55% total damage mitigation from those numbers as a basically meta tank

    Yes, 1.55% more absolute damage, which when starting at 9.8% damage taken, as @MudcrabAttack mentioned, is a ~15% increase in damage taken from live to PTS. If you take X damage on live, you will take about X*1.15 on U28 based on all the above.

    Percentages are tricky tool. By Your logic if there would be someone with 99% dmg mitigation and it would be nerfed to 98% it would be 1% more total dmg which when starting at 1% dmg taken is a 100% increase in damage taken. If he was taking X dmg then he would start to take X*2 dmg. Holy moly 2 times more dmg ! Does that mean said player would start dropping dead left and right ? Of course not because his dmg mitigation is very high anyway. When playing with percentages and using small numbers it's very easy to get high percentage values out of them. For a tank in ESO 15% more dmg taken is nothing because his base dmg taken is very low.

    THIS RIGHT HERE ^

    Yes they would drop dead :-) If they were taking 40K damage from a heavy with 99% mitigation and it jumped up to 80K damage with 98% mitigation then I suspect they would die. I would. But I do get your point and agree that much of the game is low damage for tanks. If you are only taking 5K from a heavy then a 15% increase is nothing. And most tank deaths are mechanics/resorurce management issues anyhow. But some vet HM fights do put out some noticible damage on tanks even post mitigation. It will be interesting to see how this plays out in the broader tanking community.

    When teaching new tanks I used to stress what a big deal keeping minor maim up was, in terms of reducing damage received and group damage received during things like HRC sheite storm, KA lightining game, etc that maim impacts. 15% was a big deal. Now it will be a bit less critical.
  • Juhasow
    Juhasow
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    delkurz wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    delkurz wrote: »
    My Current Set up with 5-1-1 armor, Yolna Alkosh with nothing other than Defensive stance being able to be considered adding to mitigation out of the current norm.

    Live

    Total 0.5881*0.8*0.9*0.5*0.9*0.85*0.92*0.95*0.88*0.79=0.098 aka 90.2% Total mitigation

    PTS


    Total 0.5881*0.8*0.9*0.5*0.9*0.95*0.95*0.95*0.88*0.79=0.1135 aka 88.65% total mitigation.

    So we got a difference in 1.55% total damage mitigation from those numbers as a basically meta tank

    Yes, 1.55% more absolute damage, which when starting at 9.8% damage taken, as @MudcrabAttack mentioned, is a ~15% increase in damage taken from live to PTS. If you take X damage on live, you will take about X*1.15 on U28 based on all the above.

    Percentages are tricky tool. By Your logic if there would be someone with 99% dmg mitigation and it would be nerfed to 98% it would be 1% more total dmg which when starting at 1% dmg taken is a 100% increase in damage taken. If he was taking X dmg then he would start to take X*2 dmg. Holy moly 2 times more dmg ! Does that mean said player would start dropping dead left and right ? Of course not because his dmg mitigation is very high anyway. When playing with percentages and using small numbers it's very easy to get high percentage values out of them. For a tank in ESO 15% more dmg taken is nothing because his base dmg taken is very low.

    THIS RIGHT HERE ^

    Yes they would drop dead :-) If they were taking 40K damage from a heavy with 99% mitigation and it jumped up to 80K damage with 98% mitigation then I suspect they would die. I would. But I do get your point and agree that much of the game is low damage for tanks. If you are only taking 5K from a heavy then a 15% increase is nothing. And most tank deaths are mechanics/resorurce management issues anyhow. But some vet HM fights do put out some noticible damage on tanks even post mitigation. It will be interesting to see how this plays out in the broader tanking community.

    When teaching new tanks I used to stress what a big deal keeping minor maim up was, in terms of reducing damage received and group damage received during things like HRC sheite storm, KA lightining game, etc that maim impacts. 15% was a big deal. Now it will be a bit less critical.

    If there would be a hit that deals 40k dmg after being reduced by 99% that means at base it deals 4M dmg. I think if something is designed to deal 4M dmg it is supposed to one shot everyone. I don't even think there is a hit like that in ESO that would still undergo regular dmg mitigation formula. As for vet content where there is a lot of dmg taken , well game offers lot of sets and skills that helps to survive that. Fact that tanks very often play as support+tank even in game end shows that there is still lot of space to improve in terms of survivability when it's needed because basic survivability of tanks is pretty decent.

    As for minor maim it'll be still usefull to keep up not only for You but for Your group in 1st place.
  • paulsimonps
    paulsimonps
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    delkurz wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    delkurz wrote: »
    My Current Set up with 5-1-1 armor, Yolna Alkosh with nothing other than Defensive stance being able to be considered adding to mitigation out of the current norm.

    Live

    Total 0.5881*0.8*0.9*0.5*0.9*0.85*0.92*0.95*0.88*0.79=0.098 aka 90.2% Total mitigation

    PTS


    Total 0.5881*0.8*0.9*0.5*0.9*0.95*0.95*0.95*0.88*0.79=0.1135 aka 88.65% total mitigation.

    So we got a difference in 1.55% total damage mitigation from those numbers as a basically meta tank

    Yes, 1.55% more absolute damage, which when starting at 9.8% damage taken, as @MudcrabAttack mentioned, is a ~15% increase in damage taken from live to PTS. If you take X damage on live, you will take about X*1.15 on U28 based on all the above.

    Percentages are tricky tool. By Your logic if there would be someone with 99% dmg mitigation and it would be nerfed to 98% it would be 1% more total dmg which when starting at 1% dmg taken is a 100% increase in damage taken. If he was taking X dmg then he would start to take X*2 dmg. Holy moly 2 times more dmg ! Does that mean said player would start dropping dead left and right ? Of course not because his dmg mitigation is very high anyway. When playing with percentages and using small numbers it's very easy to get high percentage values out of them. For a tank in ESO 15% more dmg taken is nothing because his base dmg taken is very low.

    THIS RIGHT HERE ^

    Yes they would drop dead :-) If they were taking 40K damage from a heavy with 99% mitigation and it jumped up to 80K damage with 98% mitigation then I suspect they would die. I would. But I do get your point and agree that much of the game is low damage for tanks. If you are only taking 5K from a heavy then a 15% increase is nothing. And most tank deaths are mechanics/resorurce management issues anyhow. But some vet HM fights do put out some noticible damage on tanks even post mitigation. It will be interesting to see how this plays out in the broader tanking community.

    When teaching new tanks I used to stress what a big deal keeping minor maim up was, in terms of reducing damage received and group damage received during things like HRC sheite storm, KA lightining game, etc that maim impacts. 15% was a big deal. Now it will be a bit less critical.

    ok but 40k with 99% mitigation would mean that the base hit would be 4,000,000, aka 4mil. Which is would most likely be a mechanically intended instant kill. Even Something like Veteran Saint Olms Normal attacks are just around 180k if I remember right and 99% mitigation of that is 1800 and double that is just 3600. Not exactly a lot, however you will obviously not have 99% or even 98%, but point still stands. Most fights that are hard on tanks health usually involve unblockable attacks, DoTs or one really strong hit that can either be roll dodged or damage shield stacked, where mitigation would do little to help anyway.
  • thadjarvis
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    I think the focus on Minor Maim is fine, but you have to take into account all the other changes. I put some above, but there's more. Eg what monster will you wear? In mag groups (most groups) you won't need Alkosh often so standard LT or Malacath choices aren't needed for that. You can use Vykosa, the new Void set, etc. You have to factor that in. I have no idea why you would need it, but a group could stack Vykosa with LT/Void.

    The major and minor Ward buffs are significant relative to maim nerf and they are being ignored in this thread.
    Edited by thadjarvis on October 27, 2020 5:44PM
  • AgaTheGreat
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    Kurat wrote: »
    Tanking is too easy and boring, that's why theres not enough of them. And tanks are not needed for most content, including vets.

    There are so few tanks because tanking is difficult, responsible and requires knowledge.

    These protection / maim changes impact high damage scenarios, like for example main tanking vka HM. In top PC groups you probably won't feel the difference because your fights generally last shorter and allow for higher dps. Console, however, will feel the difference in longer fights.
    Edited by AgaTheGreat on October 28, 2020 1:57PM
    PS4 EU Aga_The_Grey - retired | PC EU AgaTheGreat
  • delkurz
    delkurz
    thadjarvis wrote: »
    I think the focus on Minor Maim is fine, but you have to take into account all the other changes. I put some above, but there's more. Eg what monster will you wear? In mag groups (most groups) you won't need Alkosh often so standard LT or Malacath choices aren't needed for that. You can use Vykosa, the new Void set, etc. You have to factor that in. I have no idea why you would need it, but a group could stack Vykosa with LT/Void.

    The major and minor Ward buffs are significant relative to maim nerf and they are being ignored in this thread.

    Yeh, the ward changes are a bit tougher to nail down and complicated a bit. A Nord DK in heavy 7/0/0 is about at the spell resist cap without minor ward, so the Ward buffs aren't changing much for them there. Yes, for phys damage it will make a difference as Nord DKs have some room there. Other races/classes/armor will be different. It does open up more chances to go 5 Med body more easily if desired. I am excited by the difference the ward buffs will make on non-tanks as some classes will fairly easily see ~2600 more resists (roughly +6% dmg additional mitigation depending on where their resists were at, (or ~4% in absolute terms)).
  • Saubon
    Saubon
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    Juhasow wrote: »
    If there would be a hit that deals 40k dmg after being reduced by 99% that means at base it deals 4M dmg. I think if something is designed to deal 4M dmg it is supposed to one shot everyone. I don't even think there is a hit like that in ESO that would still undergo regular dmg mitigation formula. As for vet content where there is a lot of dmg taken , well game offers lot of sets and skills that helps to survive that. Fact that tanks very often play as support+tank even in game end shows that there is still lot of space to improve in terms of survivability when it's needed because basic survivability of tanks is pretty decent.

    HM Falgravn hits for 1M with HA in last phase, the only tank who don't need to dodgeroll is sorc
  • stefj68
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    its even worst on the nightblade, they list 10% passive damage reduction on last patch and gain 10% increase crits heal / damage lol

    my nb tank feel weaker everyday!
  • Zymcio
    Zymcio
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    Hey i did testing Live vs PTS on my NB

    without minor maim the difference is around 3,5%
    20946 vs 21690

    with minor main it is like 9%
    17805 vs 19575

    The test dummy was a HA from Saint Olms

    I used Shadow Cloak and Mirage

    Edited by Zymcio on October 31, 2020 10:15AM
  • delkurz
    delkurz
    I finally buckled down and built a PTS char that matches my live one. Nord DK. On vAS Olms Swipe.

    13251 on live versus 15680 on PTS for lowest numbers without using Major Maim synergy from Lady thorn.
    Live data

    b86v4ioengpk.png

    8xtvpsm2q33b.png

    rjrgvnduzkss.png

    PTS

    shows pierce but I changed out to ransack for the tests below, food was longfin instead of sugar skulls as I couldn't find skulls in the lunchbox
    256raycy0906.png

    tagntx95ydh6.png

    Shows 15985 but there was a 15680 swipe as well (probably with Phase from dodge roll)
    2uapna8gd0jm.png


  • Olupajmibanan
    Olupajmibanan
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    delkurz wrote: »
    I finally buckled down and built a PTS char that matches my live one. Nord DK. On vAS Olms Swipe.

    13251 on live versus 15680 on PTS for lowest numbers without using Major Maim synergy from Lady thorn.
    Live data

    b86v4ioengpk.png

    8xtvpsm2q33b.png

    rjrgvnduzkss.png

    PTS

    shows pierce but I changed out to ransack for the tests below, food was longfin instead of sugar skulls as I couldn't find skulls in the lunchbox
    256raycy0906.png

    tagntx95ydh6.png

    Shows 15985 but there was a 15680 swipe as well (probably with Phase from dodge roll)
    2uapna8gd0jm.png


    What are the results with Major Maim please? Thanks to Void Bash, Major Maim is very easily accesible and with solid uptime.
  • delkurz
    delkurz
    With major maim up from LT or Void Bash it looks like 13587 on PTS for me.
  • AyaDark
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    AyaDark wrote: »
    What make tank selfish? He do his job. Are you not selfish DD ? Do you heal tank ?

    Tank is "selfish" because he get not enough heal and support, this sets give him something, that party do not

    It is not tank selfish - tank is OK, it is just a bad group.

    And now it is bad group + 15% damage more.

    Call it "Selfish Tank", "Tank doing his Job", "Whatever Tank of Whatever", we always refer to the same thing - tank wearing things that do not support the rest of his group. Do not slip this discussion into some word game. We are discussing serious matters.

    Tank must not buff or support the group. It is not his primary option.
    He get and metegate damage in first place.

    Tank metegate damage by using block, dodge and debuffs. And has good defence too. His primary target is ground control of mobs. That is all. Heal him is groups responciability. If party do not give enough hps to tank - he is dead. To avoid situations like this tank put healing sets on himself, they give him 4+- k hps. And he do it because healers and other party members do not give him enough resources and healing. And if damage goes up - this 15 % must be overhealed by who ?

    Tank ? Then even more selfish sets.
    Heal ?I only see 8 heals i trust with normal hps for 3 years i play.
    DDs ? A lot of them will not even go away from red ground aoe - even do not expect any help from most if them.

    Some attacks can hit you 30-40 k+, how will you metigate it if + 15% damage comes ? Not to get one shot ? More HP and healing if noother metigation can be get. More HP - less resources - less option for party support.

    That is ALL.
  • etchedpixels
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    [quote="Olupajmibanan;c-6999998"
    Call it "Selfish Tank", "Tank doing his Job", "Whatever Tank of Whatever", we always refer to the same thing - tank wearing things that do not support the rest of his group. Do not slip this discussion into some word game. We are discussing serious matters.[/quote]

    Serious ? - it's a game. It's a bunch of people having fun with pixels on a screen.

    What you put on your tank depends what the rest of the group can do. With 3 dds I want to stack healing recovery and fast regenerating damage shields. With a full cohort of squishies including a healer I want to wear stuff that protects/buffs them and be laying down things like major fracture (at least until this update where it'll change a little).

    On a 3 dd run if the tank dies it probably ends badly so keeping yourself alive first is not selfish - it's the right team play to support the group by allowing far higher group dps.
    Too many toons not enough time
  • paulsimonps
    paulsimonps
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    AyaDark wrote: »
    AyaDark wrote: »
    What make tank selfish? He do his job. Are you not selfish DD ? Do you heal tank ?

    Tank is "selfish" because he get not enough heal and support, this sets give him something, that party do not

    It is not tank selfish - tank is OK, it is just a bad group.

    And now it is bad group + 15% damage more.

    Call it "Selfish Tank", "Tank doing his Job", "Whatever Tank of Whatever", we always refer to the same thing - tank wearing things that do not support the rest of his group. Do not slip this discussion into some word game. We are discussing serious matters.

    Tank must not buff or support the group. It is not his primary option.
    He get and metegate damage in first place.

    Tank metegate damage by using block, dodge and debuffs. And has good defence too. His primary target is ground control of mobs. That is all. Heal him is groups responciability. If party do not give enough hps to tank - he is dead. To avoid situations like this tank put healing sets on himself, they give him 4+- k hps. And he do it because healers and other party members do not give him enough resources and healing. And if damage goes up - this 15 % must be overhealed by who ?

    Tank ? Then even more selfish sets.
    Heal ?I only see 8 heals i trust with normal hps for 3 years i play.
    DDs ? A lot of them will not even go away from red ground aoe - even do not expect any help from most if them.

    Some attacks can hit you 30-40 k+, how will you metigate it if + 15% damage comes ? Not to get one shot ? More HP and healing if noother metigation can be get. More HP - less resources - less option for party support.

    That is ALL.

    @AyaDark

    MITIGATE*
  • AyaDark
    AyaDark
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    AyaDark wrote: »
    AyaDark wrote: »
    What make tank selfish? He do his job. Are you not selfish DD ? Do you heal tank ?

    Tank is "selfish" because he get not enough heal and support, this sets give him something, that party do not

    It is not tank selfish - tank is OK, it is just a bad group.

    And now it is bad group + 15% damage more.

    Call it "Selfish Tank", "Tank doing his Job", "Whatever Tank of Whatever", we always refer to the same thing - tank wearing things that do not support the rest of his group. Do not slip this discussion into some word game. We are discussing serious matters.

    Tank must not buff or support the group. It is not his primary option.
    He get and metegate damage in first place.

    Tank metegate damage by using block, dodge and debuffs. And has good defence too. His primary target is ground control of mobs. That is all. Heal him is groups responciability. If party do not give enough hps to tank - he is dead. To avoid situations like this tank put healing sets on himself, they give him 4+- k hps. And he do it because healers and other party members do not give him enough resources and healing. And if damage goes up - this 15 % must be overhealed by who ?

    Tank ? Then even more selfish sets.
    Heal ?I only see 8 heals i trust with normal hps for 3 years i play.
    DDs ? A lot of them will not even go away from red ground aoe - even do not expect any help from most if them.

    Some attacks can hit you 30-40 k+, how will you metigate it if + 15% damage comes ? Not to get one shot ? More HP and healing if noother metigation can be get. More HP - less resources - less option for party support.

    That is ALL.

    @AyaDark

    MITIGATE*

    Thank you ;)
  • Olupajmibanan
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    First of all, we should focus only on non-PuGs. Discussing anything related to PuGs is pointless.

    You can tank 3 DD runs just fine without any special adjustment to your build. Even hard hitting bosses such as HM Earthgore are easily done in Symphony of Blades, Yolnahkriin, Powerful Assault build which is a full support build.

    I know that primary role of the tank is to soak up damage for his group. But how much of his effort does it take? There is plenty of room for another things such as group supporting. Not doing so and just slapping Leeching on yourself, standing still and doing nothing but taunting and holding block is a big waste of your potential which hurts your group as a whole. It's pretty normal that you should adjust your build to the situation, but from experience, there are only few fights that can't be done without dropping group support sets.
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