The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
So that’s it...No Proc Set Changes? (6.2.4)
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JayKwellen✭✭✭✭✭
I've never played an MMORPG (and I've played a lot since 1997) where balance passes were so......... random and incomplete.
Usually, even if I disagree with it, I can see where a balance change is coming from, but with ESO in the last couple of years it just seems like change for the sake OF change much of the time.
So many players seem to be getting burnt out by this.
It's because there's no floor. No foundation. No steady place to find your balance without the bottom dropping out on you. The devs never provide any thorough plan or update on the direction they intend to go, it's always piecemeal and disjointed. Even when they actually do provide insight and reasoning they often end up changing their mind and flipping in another direction...sometimes before they even finish implementing the thing they were trying to do at first!
In addition to the randomness and incomplete nature of the changes, they also keep changing the system itself while also trying to balance other things in that system. So here you're trying to balance item A, but at the same time you're introducing new item B. B changes the nature of the system both A and B exist in, and the existence of item B changes the nature of item A itself. How can you properly balance item A when you're simultaneously changing the system you were trying to balance it against?
Simple answer is you can't. That's why we're never able to approach, and likely never will be able to approach, anything approximating a balanced meta or even balanced game.
I draw parallels to this with my own job. I manage life support machines for a living, one in particular that breathes for people who can't breathe, a ventilator. This machine has a lot of different settings on it which can be manipulated depending on whats going on with the patient -- oxygen level, respiratory rate, inspiratory flow, peak inspiratory flow time, expiratory cycle time, inspiratory time, inspiratory pressure, and end-expiratory pressure.
So, say I have a patient who is having trouble oxygenating, and I need to manipulate my machine to make this better. What do I change? Each and every one of those settings will effect oxygenation, but each one to a different degree of effectiveness, particularly in relation to what the underlying problem is. If their lungs are fluid-filled or collapsed I need more pressure, if their oxygen demand has increased because their metabolic rate is increasing they need more oxygen percent, unless of course their lungs are collapsing because I'm not delivering an appropriate volume, in which case I need to change that instead.
It's a lot of variables, a lot of possibilities, but importantly it's also the fact that changing 1 variable also changes all the other variables.
If I decide I want to fix the problem, and then just randomly change a bunch of settings at once...even if I fix the problem I have no way of knowing what worked, and what's more I probably created new problems by doing so. The correct approach would be a well thought-out and methodical one, working through each individual possibility instead of just haphazardly trying a bunch of random things at once, creating two new problems for every individual one I fix.
Unfortunately, when I see the various balancing attempts that's honestly the type of behavior I've observed. Confusion, change of plans mid course with no clear end goal, attempting to cure symptoms without treating underlying causes, all the while introducing new sets and mythics, in the middle of these balancing passes, which effectively take the whole board and toss it over anyway. It's basically taking something which most other MMO's have found a way to manage and turned it into a sisyphean endeavor.Xbox NA - JaeKwellen
AD PvP
Trying to main a magcro. This is awful.7 -
Abyssmol✭✭✭✭✭Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »montiferus wrote: »Community has overwhelmingly been saying that this is the worst proc meta we’ve had in years and the only change we get is a slap to the wrist on sheer venom. Disappointed, the combat team truly doesn’t do any PvP testing or enter BGs. People have been asking for item set rebalance, class rebalance, new CP system, and all we ever get is more broken proc sets. Which also for some reason take at least 6-months to get nerfed whereas every other MMORPG would hot fix them within a week. The combat team for this mmo is awful, and 95% of the people who PvP on a normal bases would agree. After 6 years coming this January I think I’ll finally find a new MMO to main as the PvP community in this one is ignored.
Many PvE player like these set that are finaly usable after years and years of being trash.
Change how PvP work 1st to not destroy any fun thing PVE got because of PvP..
I do quite a bit of end game PVE content and am in a few trial guilds where we extensively discuss group/build theory crafting and I can safely say that nobody and I mean nobody uses the sets everyone is talking about in PVE. Those sets are absolutely worthless in end game PVE. They are a huge DPS loss.
If you need these sets for PVE you are doing something very wrong.
Its not that they are needed
But when you have 18 character all of them having the same set for optimal dps it quite borring
Thats the truth. What are there, like 6 viable dps sets for pve, if that? PvP was sort of the same. Just a few viable sets. Then ZOS went of a rampage of releasing proc sets, improving old ones, and nerfing stat sets. Now there are tons of set combos for pvp. It makes me think that ZOS has internal polling numbers showing "the Community overwhelmingly loves" proc sets.
Things i like procsets, but not in their current form.
It would be much better if they scaled off of stats.
As it stands they provide far too much dmg, and it has been proven, for very little effort.
I think procsets more than have a place in the game, but they cant be the de-facto, only viable things.
If you go to BGs or non cp cyro these days and your not rocking procs, you are so severly handicapping yourself its not even funny.
Also Zos has done a lot to balance stat sets, hence the nerf to new moon and fury for example.
Theres a lot more variety now, but its completely pushed sideways due to procsets being so dominant.
Also there isnt that much variety when it comes to procsets, Syvarra pretty much dominates the meta to the point where its even worth running on magicka toons.
Sheer venom is a strong contender, but for example venomous smite cannot compete with sets that have potentially 100% uptime.
I keep seeing people write "It would be much better if they scaled off of stats" when they talk about proc sets. This would be totally unbalanced. Stamina would have an unfair advantage over magicka because of the way WP stacks. How about making proc sets scale with max resource only? How would you feel about that?3 -
precambria✭✭✭✭✭Yeah it is a travesty, game with so many good things in it and massive potential for PvP and build making, it's just managed in a way that causes this, I don't think the people who designed these sets or the combat team wants to destroy the game it is just that the task of balancing it is not being given priority and whomever is managing that just keeps pushing them to release more poorly tested content.
It's publisher's and bean counters making it like this, not the devs, I refuse to believe the same people who would design so much beautiful and interesting content would not want to see it flourish. They are probably fatigued from negative feedback, as well as having to manage all kinds of workload issues, I wish they would just let the devs dev and not just sausage factory constant new things to sell when they don't even have time to debug or balance them.0 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭I keep seeing people write "It would be much better if they scaled off of stats" when they talk about proc sets. This would be totally unbalanced. Stamina would have an unfair advantage over magicka because of the way WP stacks. How about making proc sets scale with max resource only? How would you feel about that?
What do you mean? This stat scaling is hypothetical, so there is no existing formula, who knows how they would weight things. Do you mean something about Major + Minor Brutality doing something that Major + Minor Sorcery does not? For skills, magicka co-efficients tend to favor Resource, stamina co-efficients tend to favor Weapon Damage, right? So the procs could be scaled similarly.
Stamina has an advantage on live in that stam damage proc sets are overall much better - now*. Remember for years stam players were clamoring for a monster set as good as Skoria. For sure some of these mag damage proc sets need tuned up to be on par with the array of stamdamage proc sets. Then again, I've always thought of it like this: Wizards have access to spells (in ESO, more class abilities), Warriors have access to gear (in ESO, better sets and a wider variety). Not saying that's true anymore but that's how I used to see things.
* - besides VD
Edited by Urzigurumash on October 26, 2020 8:53AMXbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast0 -
Luke_Flamesword✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭There is one simple solution for all this - balanced damage caps and cooldowns from proc sets in PvP only. Also scaling damage with offensive stats to avoid high damage tanks. Imagine Cyrodill where every player can make only some amount of damage from proc sets in some time (for example for every 20 seconds) - it will force people to depend more on skills and L/H attacks. It should be balanced to make proc sets stil viable, but with glass ceiling protecting other froms OP usage.
This gives possibility to balance all sets without touching PvE, where OP sets are not a problem
With this solution ZOS can throw any OP proc set and it won't need balancing, because damage cap will be protect whole Cyrodiil better than Akatosh himself PC | EU | DC |Stam Dk Breton0 -
Firstmep✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »montiferus wrote: »Community has overwhelmingly been saying that this is the worst proc meta we’ve had in years and the only change we get is a slap to the wrist on sheer venom. Disappointed, the combat team truly doesn’t do any PvP testing or enter BGs. People have been asking for item set rebalance, class rebalance, new CP system, and all we ever get is more broken proc sets. Which also for some reason take at least 6-months to get nerfed whereas every other MMORPG would hot fix them within a week. The combat team for this mmo is awful, and 95% of the people who PvP on a normal bases would agree. After 6 years coming this January I think I’ll finally find a new MMO to main as the PvP community in this one is ignored.
Many PvE player like these set that are finaly usable after years and years of being trash.
Change how PvP work 1st to not destroy any fun thing PVE got because of PvP..
I do quite a bit of end game PVE content and am in a few trial guilds where we extensively discuss group/build theory crafting and I can safely say that nobody and I mean nobody uses the sets everyone is talking about in PVE. Those sets are absolutely worthless in end game PVE. They are a huge DPS loss.
If you need these sets for PVE you are doing something very wrong.
Its not that they are needed
But when you have 18 character all of them having the same set for optimal dps it quite borring
Thats the truth. What are there, like 6 viable dps sets for pve, if that? PvP was sort of the same. Just a few viable sets. Then ZOS went of a rampage of releasing proc sets, improving old ones, and nerfing stat sets. Now there are tons of set combos for pvp. It makes me think that ZOS has internal polling numbers showing "the Community overwhelmingly loves" proc sets.
Things i like procsets, but not in their current form.
It would be much better if they scaled off of stats.
As it stands they provide far too much dmg, and it has been proven, for very little effort.
I think procsets more than have a place in the game, but they cant be the de-facto, only viable things.
If you go to BGs or non cp cyro these days and your not rocking procs, you are so severly handicapping yourself its not even funny.
Also Zos has done a lot to balance stat sets, hence the nerf to new moon and fury for example.
Theres a lot more variety now, but its completely pushed sideways due to procsets being so dominant.
Also there isnt that much variety when it comes to procsets, Syvarra pretty much dominates the meta to the point where its even worth running on magicka toons.
Sheer venom is a strong contender, but for example venomous smite cannot compete with sets that have potentially 100% uptime.
I keep seeing people write "It would be much better if they scaled off of stats" when they talk about proc sets. This would be totally unbalanced. Stamina would have an unfair advantage over magicka because of the way WP stacks. How about making proc sets scale with max resource only? How would you feel about that?
I don't get people like you that bicker about Magicka vs stamina.
I play both playstyle across multiple classes both in Pve and pvp and do more than fine with both.
Also don't forget that light armor gives a bunch of penetration, which already applies to procsets, where as medium armor wpd passive does not.
It is also absolutely possible to build for high offensive stats on Magicka classes, just look at every cp pvp magsorc rocking 50k Magicka.
We can argue that there are more strong proc sets for stamina at the moment, but that doesn't take away from the issue of procsets in general.0