Necromancer Mitigation

mikey_reach · October 2020

I know Zos makes money out of this class but wouldnt it be a good idea to classify spirit guardian as major protection. You can easily change deaden pain to something like “grants you 2% damage reduction per corpse consumed up to 30%. That way they don’t loose anything if that is what they want but it will limit how much tankier they can be over other classes.

Atherakhia · October 2020

Let me start by first saying that they really need to rethink the values they've set for some of the major buffs/debuffs. Major Protection, Major Mending, and Major Vuln are each too weak imo. It's also worth mentioning that the main balancing mechanic a lot of skills that had these mechanics attached would have incredibly short durations and given how low these buffs/debuffs are it seems meaningless for these abilities to have such short durations still. I'd like to see them increase these to make them more meaningful.

Now with that out of the way, I do agree that Necro should probably have mender changed to provide minor/major protection as opposed to a stacking mechanic. But this really isn't a big deal imo. Necro survivability is high because their offensive capabilities are beyond pathetic. Especially in PvP where the few offensive skills they have are even more limited. So changing Necro skills needs to 1.) keep in mind that Mag Necros exist and 2.) that defensive changes had better come with corresponding offensive changes.

wheem_ESO · October 2020

Everyone wants the Spirit pet nerfed because of Stamina Necromancers (which will be taken down a peg with the Major Defile nerf), while seemingly forgetting that Magicka Necromancer exists, and not realizing that the pet is bugged and often doesn't cast its heal. I spent quite a while running the other morph and hoping that ZOS would actually fix it. But all too often I'd go for multiple, full duration casts and receive 0 heals from it, which is the only thing that morph actually does.

They should at least fix the heal casts (and optimally have it count for the BG scoreboard, too) if they're going to nerf the damage reduction on the other morph (even if only by making it not stack with Major Protection).

katorga · October 2020

You can extend the logic...

Why should NB get more than major berserk (20% vs 10%) off of Incap, and have it stack as well?

Why should warden get permanent, stacking major berserk for frost and magic damage?

Why should Sorc get permanent. stacking minor berserk and major berserk?

Why should necro get permanent, stacking major/minor berserk for dots? DK for fire?

A bunch of classes get permanent, stacking buffs equal to minor mending, force, and others.

Tons of sets give stacking buffs equal to or higher than the new majors.

And so on. Major/Minor is 10/5%. Every other set, class passive and unnamed source should be adjusted to 8/3%.

Xebov · October 2020

Atherakhia wrote: »

Let me start by first saying that they really need to rethink the values they've set for some of the major buffs/debuffs. Major Protection, Major Mending, and Major Vuln are each too weak imo.

That depends on what the goal is. The game is currently in a strange position. On one end ZOS wants to enable players to play whatever class/race combination they want and still be effective. On the other side they distributed many buffs between classes to keep all the classes relevant. These 2 work against each other and create the situation that you end up with perfect combinations for both Trials and especially 4 Player content. Its also the differenc ebetween rookie and experienced groups to what level tehy have all the Buffs available and becomes an issue for balancing. With reducing the Buffs that much they turning some into the "nice to have" corner. Its nice to have them but your group is not penelized to much if you dont have it.

Atherakhia · October 2020

Xebov wrote: »

Atherakhia wrote: »

Let me start by first saying that they really need to rethink the values they've set for some of the major buffs/debuffs. Major Protection, Major Mending, and Major Vuln are each too weak imo.

That depends on what the goal is. The game is currently in a strange position. On one end ZOS wants to enable players to play whatever class/race combination they want and still be effective. On the other side they distributed many buffs between classes to keep all the classes relevant. These 2 work against each other and create the situation that you end up with perfect combinations for both Trials and especially 4 Player content. Its also the differenc ebetween rookie and experienced groups to what level tehy have all the Buffs available and becomes an issue for balancing. With reducing the Buffs that much they turning some into the "nice to have" corner. Its nice to have them but your group is not penelized to much if you dont have it.

Which is fine, but that flies in the face of other design decisions they've made.

For example, one of the main design decisions used in this game is to have 'wasted' GCDs with the sole purpose of casting, maintaining/refreshing buffs. When they make certain buffs inconsequential or only 'nice to have' they should also rethink the need to constantly reapply these buffs. On top of this, they've made a number of the truly strong buffs/debuffs (like major protection and major mending) balanced around the fact that their durations are quite limited and the skills used to apply them are generally quite expensive. These balance decisions seem counter productive when these buffs are only 'nice to have'.

With as weak as some of these buffs now are, there really isn't a reason for them to have only 10 to 15 second (or 2 to 4 second in some cases) durations that must be reapplied in the middle of combat. May as well make them prebuff type mechanics and persist so long as the player is alive at that point.

Urvoth · October 2020

The damage mitigation is one of the only things mag necro has going for it and yet you still want a nerf? Nerfing something just because it’s the same as a nerfed major buff is faulty logic.

mikey_reach · October 2020

Funny because i actually got accused of asking for a buff because of this thread and now you are accusing me of asking for a nerf. Can you elaborate on why you think im asking for a nerf? I did clarify that they wont loose or gain anything so by definition its not a nerf therefore the faulty logic comes from you making the assumption of me asking something that i did not ask for.

wheem_ESO · October 2020

mikey_reach wrote: »

Funny because i actually got accused of asking for a buff because of this thread and now you are accusing me of asking for a nerf. Can you elaborate on why you think im asking for a nerf? I did clarify that they wont loose or gain anything so by definition its not a nerf therefore the faulty logic comes from you making the assumption of me asking something that i did not ask for.

Since it would limit options for "stacking," changing the flat 10% to instead be Major Protection would in fact be a nerf. And due to the pet bug that I'm always droning on about, it wouldn't be a realistic option to switch morphs in order to utilize Pirate Skeleton.

Vizirith · October 2020

wheem_ESO wrote: »

mikey_reach wrote: »

Funny because i actually got accused of asking for a buff because of this thread and now you are accusing me of asking for a nerf. Can you elaborate on why you think im asking for a nerf? I did clarify that they wont loose or gain anything so by definition its not a nerf therefore the faulty logic comes from you making the assumption of me asking something that i did not ask for.

Since it would limit options for "stacking," changing the flat 10% to instead be Major Protection would in fact be a nerf. And due to the pet bug that I'm always droning on about, it wouldn't be a realistic option to switch morphs in order to utilize Pirate Skeleton.

You do realize that no class has as much access to defensive buffs as necro right?

YandereGirlfriend · October 2020

Vizirith wrote: »

You do realize that no class has as much access to defensive buffs as necro right?

You realize that magRomancer has like the worst offensive toolkit in the game, right?

If you steal away our mitigation what else is left of the class?

Take your frustrations with stamCros out in way that damages stamCros only. Those are the only ideas that can be taken seriously.

Vizirith · October 2020

katorga wrote: »

You can extend the logic...

Why should NB get more than major berserk (20% vs 10%) off of Incap, and have it stack as well?

Why should warden get permanent, stacking major berserk for frost and magic damage?

Why should Sorc get permanent. stacking minor berserk and major berserk?

Why should necro get permanent, stacking major/minor berserk for dots? DK for fire?

A bunch of classes get permanent, stacking buffs equal to minor mending, force, and others.

Tons of sets give stacking buffs equal to or higher than the new majors.

And so on. Major/Minor is 10/5%. Every other set, class passive and unnamed source should be adjusted to 8/3%.

Incap isn’t 100% uptime.

Warden sure.

Sorc is only 10% not 15%. Scales with health from 10% to 0 so average would only be 5%

DK is on engulfing flames, uptime depends on purge and is only 10%. World in ruin is 6% to aoe flame which really only affects engulfing flames on a standard mag dk build.

The issue is the sheer amount of utility a necro can run. Better uptime on major protection than any class, best purge, only class with 100% uptime on major defile ( outside of dark flare on magplars but I havent been hit by it yet this year so there’s that). Most classes don’t even have access to minor protection, let alone 100% uptime on major protection, forget about 100% uptime on 10% reduced damage and good uptime on major protection.

Atherakhia · October 2020

Vizirith wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

mikey_reach wrote: »

Funny because i actually got accused of asking for a buff because of this thread and now you are accusing me of asking for a nerf. Can you elaborate on why you think im asking for a nerf? I did clarify that they wont loose or gain anything so by definition its not a nerf therefore the faulty logic comes from you making the assumption of me asking something that i did not ask for.

Since it would limit options for "stacking," changing the flat 10% to instead be Major Protection would in fact be a nerf. And due to the pet bug that I'm always droning on about, it wouldn't be a realistic option to switch morphs in order to utilize Pirate Skeleton.

You do realize that no class has as much access to defensive buffs as necro right?

This is true, but why is this a problem? If your argument is that Necromancers have too much defense for their offensive value, then why are Mag Necros abysmal? A better argument could be made that stamina in general (regardless of class) or 2h specifically is overpowered than could be made that Necromancer is just given the huge disparity between Mag and Stam Necros.

Now with that said, I'd be fine with changing the Mender but it needs to come with considerable improvements elsewhere.

Vizirith · October 2020

Atherakhia wrote: »

Vizirith wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

mikey_reach wrote: »

Funny because i actually got accused of asking for a buff because of this thread and now you are accusing me of asking for a nerf. Can you elaborate on why you think im asking for a nerf? I did clarify that they wont loose or gain anything so by definition its not a nerf therefore the faulty logic comes from you making the assumption of me asking something that i did not ask for.

Since it would limit options for "stacking," changing the flat 10% to instead be Major Protection would in fact be a nerf. And due to the pet bug that I'm always droning on about, it wouldn't be a realistic option to switch morphs in order to utilize Pirate Skeleton.

You do realize that no class has as much access to defensive buffs as necro right?

This is true, but why is this a problem? If your argument is that Necromancers have too much defense for their offensive value, then why are Mag Necros abysmal? A better argument could be made that stamina in general (regardless of class) or 2h specifically is overpowered than could be made that Necromancer is just given the huge disparity between Mag and Stam Necros.

Now with that said, I'd be fine with changing the Mender but it needs to come with considerable improvements elsewhere.

Because magnecros lack in dps, flaming skull thing is clunky, slow and has an incredibly obvious telegraph. You have abilities with different damage types making something like war maiden useless. The corpse mechanice on deaden pain that gives maj protection works on corpses within 12 meter which means staying in close range to utilize the blastbones corpse.

Atherakhia · October 2020

Vizirith wrote: »

Atherakhia wrote: »

Vizirith wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

mikey_reach wrote: »

Funny because i actually got accused of asking for a buff because of this thread and now you are accusing me of asking for a nerf. Can you elaborate on why you think im asking for a nerf? I did clarify that they wont loose or gain anything so by definition its not a nerf therefore the faulty logic comes from you making the assumption of me asking something that i did not ask for.

Since it would limit options for "stacking," changing the flat 10% to instead be Major Protection would in fact be a nerf. And due to the pet bug that I'm always droning on about, it wouldn't be a realistic option to switch morphs in order to utilize Pirate Skeleton.

You do realize that no class has as much access to defensive buffs as necro right?

This is true, but why is this a problem? If your argument is that Necromancers have too much defense for their offensive value, then why are Mag Necros abysmal? A better argument could be made that stamina in general (regardless of class) or 2h specifically is overpowered than could be made that Necromancer is just given the huge disparity between Mag and Stam Necros.

Now with that said, I'd be fine with changing the Mender but it needs to come with considerable improvements elsewhere.

Because magnecros lack in dps, flaming skull thing is clunky, slow and has an incredibly obvious telegraph. You have abilities with different damage types making something like war maiden useless. The corpse mechanice on deaden pain that gives maj protection works on corpses within 12 meter which means staying in close range to utilize the blastbones corpse.

All spammables do roughly the same damage for mag, so skulls vs crushing shock really isn't going to make a difference. Stam also don't have a single damage source, so that's really not a reason for mag to be suffering. In fact, most of the damage on Necro is fire damage, so BSW could be used if necessary. Corpse generation also isn't a significant issue at range or melee because the Necro has no movement skill or a real knock back so BBs are going off within range all the time and armor drops a corpse too.

This is what I was getting at... a lot of the strengths of the Necromancer are shared between Mag and Necro and yet no one can say with a straight face that Mag Necro is anything but the absolute worst Mag class in this game by a significant margin. It's almost like stamina in general has significant advantages over mag, and those advantages are independent of the Necromancer class in general. But this is known by most at this point, as this has been Elder Stamina Online for as long as I've been playing and ZOS has shown no indication that will ever change. Not in set disparity or class disparity. At least for PvP.

I'll just say again that I am fine with changing Necro skills but people need to keep in mind that the majority of skills they are seeking to nerf are used by Mag and Stam and will have disparate effects on each.

Vizirith · October 2020

Atherakhia wrote: »

Vizirith wrote: »

Atherakhia wrote: »

Vizirith wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

mikey_reach wrote: »

Funny because i actually got accused of asking for a buff because of this thread and now you are accusing me of asking for a nerf. Can you elaborate on why you think im asking for a nerf? I did clarify that they wont loose or gain anything so by definition its not a nerf therefore the faulty logic comes from you making the assumption of me asking something that i did not ask for.

Since it would limit options for "stacking," changing the flat 10% to instead be Major Protection would in fact be a nerf. And due to the pet bug that I'm always droning on about, it wouldn't be a realistic option to switch morphs in order to utilize Pirate Skeleton.

You do realize that no class has as much access to defensive buffs as necro right?

This is true, but why is this a problem? If your argument is that Necromancers have too much defense for their offensive value, then why are Mag Necros abysmal? A better argument could be made that stamina in general (regardless of class) or 2h specifically is overpowered than could be made that Necromancer is just given the huge disparity between Mag and Stam Necros.

Now with that said, I'd be fine with changing the Mender but it needs to come with considerable improvements elsewhere.

Because magnecros lack in dps, flaming skull thing is clunky, slow and has an incredibly obvious telegraph. You have abilities with different damage types making something like war maiden useless. The corpse mechanice on deaden pain that gives maj protection works on corpses within 12 meter which means staying in close range to utilize the blastbones corpse.

All spammables do roughly the same damage for mag, so skulls vs crushing shock really isn't going to make a difference. Stam also don't have a single damage source, so that's really not a reason for mag to be suffering. In fact, most of the damage on Necro is fire damage, so BSW could be used if necessary. Corpse generation also isn't a significant issue at range or melee because the Necro has no movement skill or a real knock back so BBs are going off within range all the time and armor drops a corpse too.

This is what I was getting at... a lot of the strengths of the Necromancer are shared between Mag and Necro and yet no one can say with a straight face that Mag Necro is anything but the absolute worst Mag class in this game by a significant margin. It's almost like stamina in general has significant advantages over mag, and those advantages are independent of the Necromancer class in general. But this is known by most at this point, as this has been Elder Stamina Online for as long as I've been playing and ZOS has shown no indication that will ever change. Not in set disparity or class disparity. At least for PvP.

I'll just say again that I am fine with changing Necro skills but people need to keep in mind that the majority of skills they are seeking to nerf are used by Mag and Stam and will have disparate effects on each.

True blast bones and skull are fire while colossus and boneyard are frost, skeletal mage and mystic siphon are shock. I'm not comparing crushing shock or skull by damage but by the difference in ease of dodging/blocking them. No projectile is more obvious than the big flaming skull. While I understand that most blastbones are going off within range when fighting melee players, they aren't ranged or kiting players.

Magcros also suffer with the single target heal giving minor defile to yourself, not exactly ideal. I do agree with the discrepancy between magicka vs stamina. I just don't think defensive options are the issue with magcro.

mikey_reach · October 2020

wheem_ESO wrote: »

mikey_reach wrote: »

Funny because i actually got accused of asking for a buff because of this thread and now you are accusing me of asking for a nerf. Can you elaborate on why you think im asking for a nerf? I did clarify that they wont loose or gain anything so by definition its not a nerf therefore the faulty logic comes from you making the assumption of me asking something that i did not ask for.

Since it would limit options for "stacking," changing the flat 10% to instead be Major Protection would in fact be a nerf. And due to the pet bug that I'm always droning on about, it wouldn't be a realistic option to switch morphs in order to utilize Pirate Skeleton.

I see your point and its solid but its a subjective change not so much a nerf. It doesnt have to be a nerf unless you make it that way. Either way this thread was more of a suggestion to stir up some ideas rather than a demand.

mikey_reach · October 2020

katorga wrote: »

You can extend the logic...

Why should NB get more than major berserk (20% vs 10%) off of Incap, and have it stack as well?

Why should warden get permanent, stacking major berserk for frost and magic damage?

Why should Sorc get permanent. stacking minor berserk and major berserk?

Why should necro get permanent, stacking major/minor berserk for dots? DK for fire?

A bunch of classes get permanent, stacking buffs equal to minor mending, force, and others.

Tons of sets give stacking buffs equal to or higher than the new majors.

And so on. Major/Minor is 10/5%. Every other set, class passive and unnamed source should be adjusted to 8/3%.

To be honest i see your point even though it seems like you are “reaching” for the sake of the argument. Take this for example things that we strong back then lets say “black rose” for example it was really strong during the heavy armor meta back then, it got buffed recently but its no where near as strong as it used to be in terms of efficiency compared to others like eternal vigor for example. Spirit guardian for example doesnt seem like much this patch but next patch you will be able to tell how strong it can be due to the buff/debuff rebalance because times will change, the meta will change and when that happens things need to be relooked and im no expert but that is why i created the thread.