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Necros are way to "Must have" for Endgame Raiding caused by Major Vuln, change my mind

Quantorn
Quantorn
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Necros are way to "Must have" for Endgame Raiding caused by Major Vuln, change my mind 116 votes

Yes, and the Major Vuln debuff should be nerfed to 15% ( minor is 8%, major is most of the time 2x minor )
39%
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Yes, but it's fine
35%
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Other reasons
6%
JohnOfMarkarthRunefangkarekizCleymenZeroSuna_Ye_SunnabeAthan1Koubo 7 votes
No, it isn't
18%
Joy_Divisionamm7sb14_ESOluen79rwb17_ESODelsskiaCompletelyToastPuzzlenutsLehnuinmorrowjensharquezkarthrag_inakSchokoladeWildRaptorXRadagastThePinkhighndsStratlocrobprkatorgaAertewtsaescishoeshinerSephyr 22 votes
  • SlimeBro1
    SlimeBro1
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    No, it isn't
    Quantorn wrote: »

    The class literally gives no major buffs.

    This is offset by providing major debuffs. That, my friend, is called balance and makes Necromancer unique. Necromancer should be a debuffing class.

    Also necromancer in raids is "alright", not the best. At least in the few vet raids I have done nobody has said anything about needing necros.

    Think you might be looking a bit too far into it.

    PvE wise it is probably one of the more well balanced classes stat-wise. Unfortunately stam beats magicka pretty hard. stamcro is just flatout better than magcro in both PvP and PvE. If anything, magcro needs some pretty hefty buffs in order to make it on-par with its stam counterpart.

    If you remove major vulnerability you will be messing with what makes this class stand out. Reminds me of the people who say Nightblade is a must in PvP because they have cloak, in full honesty. Nothing against you or anything, I just don't see how this unique thing Necro provides makes it a must for raids.

    At that point we might as well look at the best 'gear' for raids too, eh?
    Edited by SlimeBro1 on August 9, 2020 2:19AM
  • nsmurfer
    nsmurfer
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    Yes, and the Major Vuln debuff should be nerfed to 15% ( minor is 8%, major is most of the time 2x minor )
    @SlimeBro1 every score pushing groups uses 5-6 necro DDs out 8. How is it balanced?
  • sharquez
    sharquez
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    No, it isn't
    Why are we nerfing stuff for killing computers? Did the robots whine that we were too imbalanced? Did one of the dragon bosses in Sunspire say that major vulnerability was ruining his 1vxer highlight vids? Keep stuff killy I say, and let the mechanics make the fight interesting.
    At least 3 of each class. PVPing Since IC.
  • amm7sb14_ESO
    amm7sb14_ESO
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    No, it isn't
    The fact that yes is winning is sad.

    I main a necro. Its my favorite class. But we are far from any sort of over powered.

    The tradeoff for that Major Vuln is:

    -No execute ability
    -no gap closers or Major Expedition ability (we are the slowest class)
    -a spammable that requires 3 casts for a benefit, meaning most will stick with weapon skill spammables
    -no burst heals for anyone outside of ourselves
    -literally 0 buffs outside of Major Resolve and the Goliath transformation

    Necros give up a lot and all we get in return is AOE breach & fracture OR the opportunity to use our own synergy - for mag users only, Major Vuln, Goliath transformation, and the 3 man insta-rez which is situational at best.
  • Quantorn
    Quantorn
    ✭✭
    Yes, and the Major Vuln debuff should be nerfed to 15% ( minor is 8%, major is most of the time 2x minor )
    SlimeBro1 wrote: »
    Quantorn wrote: »

    The class literally gives no major buffs.

    This is offset by providing major debuffs. That, my friend, is called balance and makes Necromancer unique. Necromancer should be a debuffing class.

    Also necromancer in raids is "alright", not the best. At least in the few vet raids I have done nobody has said anything about needing necros.

    Think you might be looking a bit too far into it.

    PvE wise it is probably one of the more well balanced classes stat-wise. Unfortunately stam beats magicka pretty hard. stamcro is just flatout better than magcro in both PvP and PvE. If anything, magcro needs some pretty hefty buffs in order to make it on-par with its stam counterpart.

    If you remove major vulnerability you will be messing with what makes this class stand out. Reminds me of the people who say Nightblade is a must in PvP because they have cloak, in full honesty. Nothing against you or anything, I just don't see how this unique thing Necro provides makes it a must for raids.

    At that point we might as well look at the best 'gear' for raids too, eh?

    Idk in which grous you are raiding, but if you want to progress you need 3 Necro ults or you loose massive amounts of DPS on the bosses and trashgroups
    The fact that yes is winning is sad.

    I main a necro. Its my favorite class. But we are far from any sort of over powered.

    The tradeoff for that Major Vuln is:

    -No execute ability
    -no gap closers or Major Expedition ability (we are the slowest class)
    -a spammable that requires 3 casts for a benefit, meaning most will stick with weapon skill spammables
    -no burst heals for anyone outside of ourselves
    -literally 0 buffs outside of Major Resolve and the Goliath transformation

    Necros give up a lot and all we get in return is AOE breach & fracture OR the opportunity to use our own synergy - for mag users only, Major Vuln, Goliath transformation, and the 3 man insta-rez which is situational at best.

    Im not saying necro is overpowerd, he is not as a class itself in PvE... . My point is, you have to have 3 Colossus because the give so much bonus DPS. In my opinion the necro class itself should be a bit reworked, the skills should be fixed. But his changes nothing about 30% (with cooldown ~15%) more DPS debuffs that are *** high... . There is no other class, being such a must have cause of bonus DPS.

    And:
    -No execute ability
    ( ~ no, you have a softexecute with you passive (100% crit are rly strong in PvE), DK is the only class withgout execute)
    -no gap closers or Major Expedition ability (we are the slowest class)
    (~ DK is also slow)
    -a spammable that requires 3 casts for a benefit, meaning most will stick with weapon skill spammables
    (X nope, skull is strong because it also gets buffed from engulfing unlike every other non DK spammable (and you have your bonus dmg on every 3td cast))
    -no burst heals for anyone outside of ourselves
    (X resistant flesh can be castet on every one ... )
    -literally 0 buffs outside of Major Resolve and the Goliath transformation
    ( X wtf, did you ever looked on your skills, you have many utility skills ...)
    Edited by Quantorn on August 9, 2020 11:07AM
  • Tommy_The_Gun
    Tommy_The_Gun
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    Not only Major Vulnerability...

    Remember how people used to complain about NB's Incap ? It had Major Defile on a single target ult... and oh my, people were mad about it... nerf ! nerf ! nerf !...

    What ZOS did ? They added Nerco with Major Defile on a AOE ranged undoable / unblockable spammable like skill... Yep, not an ult... skill...

    If you will ever tell me than Nerco is balanced - I will laugh...
  • Luckylancer
    Luckylancer
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yes, but it's fine
    Not only Major Vulnerability...

    Remember how people used to complain about NB's Incap ? It had Major Defile on a single target ult... and oh my, people were mad about it... nerf ! nerf ! nerf !...

    What ZOS did ? They added Nerco with Major Defile on a AOE ranged undoable / unblockable spammable like skill... Yep, not an ult... skill...

    If you will ever tell me than Nerco is balanced - I will laugh...

    People would still complain about incam if it wasnt nerfed. Do people complain about blastbones? Oh what a suprise! It turnes out class's overall strenght matters more than one OP skill or debuff.

    I dont care if major defile is too stronge. If it will be nerfed, you will want to nerf what I use next week so no, dont nerf necros. Magcros need a buff btw.
  • amm7sb14_ESO
    amm7sb14_ESO
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    No, it isn't
    Quantorn wrote: »
    SlimeBro1 wrote: »
    Quantorn wrote: »

    The class literally gives no major buffs.

    This is offset by providing major debuffs. That, my friend, is called balance and makes Necromancer unique. Necromancer should be a debuffing class.

    Also necromancer in raids is "alright", not the best. At least in the few vet raids I have done nobody has said anything about needing necros.

    Think you might be looking a bit too far into it.

    PvE wise it is probably one of the more well balanced classes stat-wise. Unfortunately stam beats magicka pretty hard. stamcro is just flatout better than magcro in both PvP and PvE. If anything, magcro needs some pretty hefty buffs in order to make it on-par with its stam counterpart.

    If you remove major vulnerability you will be messing with what makes this class stand out. Reminds me of the people who say Nightblade is a must in PvP because they have cloak, in full honesty. Nothing against you or anything, I just don't see how this unique thing Necro provides makes it a must for raids.

    At that point we might as well look at the best 'gear' for raids too, eh?

    Idk in which grous you are raiding, but if you want to progress you need 3 Necro ults or you loose massive amounts of DPS on the bosses and trashgroups
    The fact that yes is winning is sad.

    I main a necro. Its my favorite class. But we are far from any sort of over powered.

    The tradeoff for that Major Vuln is:

    -No execute ability
    -no gap closers or Major Expedition ability (we are the slowest class)
    -a spammable that requires 3 casts for a benefit, meaning most will stick with weapon skill spammables
    -no burst heals for anyone outside of ourselves
    -literally 0 buffs outside of Major Resolve and the Goliath transformation

    Necros give up a lot and all we get in return is AOE breach & fracture OR the opportunity to use our own synergy - for mag users only, Major Vuln, Goliath transformation, and the 3 man insta-rez which is situational at best.

    Im not saying necro is overpowerd, he is not as a class itself in PvE... . My point is, you have to have 3 Colossus because the give so much bonus DPS. In my opinion the necro class itself should be a bit reworked, the skills should be fixed. But his changes nothing about 30% (with cooldown ~15%) more DPS debuffs that are *** high... . There is no other class, being such a must have cause of bonus DPS.

    And:
    -No execute ability
    ( ~ no, you have a softexecute with you passive (100% crit are rly strong in PvE), DK is the only class withgout execute)
    -no gap closers or Major Expedition ability (we are the slowest class)
    (~ DK is also slow)
    -a spammable that requires 3 casts for a benefit, meaning most will stick with weapon skill spammables
    (X nope, skull is strong because it also gets buffed from engulfing unlike every other non DK spammable (and you have your bonus dmg on every 3td cast))
    -no burst heals for anyone outside of ourselves
    (X resistant flesh can be castet on every one ... )
    -literally 0 buffs outside of Major Resolve and the Goliath transformation
    ( X wtf, did you ever looked on your skills, you have many utility skills ...)

    aggressive warhorn is still considered better than colossus.
  • Tommy_The_Gun
    Tommy_The_Gun
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Not only Major Vulnerability...

    Remember how people used to complain about NB's Incap ? It had Major Defile on a single target ult... and oh my, people were mad about it... nerf ! nerf ! nerf !...

    What ZOS did ? They added Nerco with Major Defile on a AOE ranged undoable / unblockable spammable like skill... Yep, not an ult... skill...

    If you will ever tell me than Nerco is balanced - I will laugh...

    People would still complain about incam if it wasnt nerfed. Do people complain about blastbones? Oh what a suprise! It turnes out class's overall strenght matters more than one OP skill or debuff.

    I dont care if major defile is too stronge. If it will be nerfed, you will want to nerf what I use next week so no, dont nerf necros. Magcros need a buff btw.
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/515557/blighted-blastbones-need-some-adjustments
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/525420/still-no-nerf-to-blighted-blastbone/p2
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/522871/blighted-blastbones-has-the-exact-same-damage-tooltip-as-dawnbreaker-of-smiting/p2
    Oh well... ;)
  • Runefang
    Runefang
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    Other reasons
    sharquez wrote: »
    Why are we nerfing stuff for killing computers? Did the robots whine that we were too imbalanced? Did one of the dragon bosses in Sunspire say that major vulnerability was ruining his 1vxer highlight vids? Keep stuff killy I say, and let the mechanics make the fight interesting.

    Uhhh because in the serious PvE end game 3 Necromancers are required but pity the 3 people who have to play them. They’re clunky as anything.

    And they also do the lowest damage generally, which is probably good for group balance but sucks for the 3 Necros.

    So the complaint is not about balance per se, but rather fun. It’s not fun to be forced to run Necro, it’s not fun to not being able to play your preferred class.
  • Quantorn
    Quantorn
    ✭✭
    Yes, and the Major Vuln debuff should be nerfed to 15% ( minor is 8%, major is most of the time 2x minor )
    Runefang wrote: »
    sharquez wrote: »
    Why are we nerfing stuff for killing computers? Did the robots whine that we were too imbalanced? Did one of the dragon bosses in Sunspire say that major vulnerability was ruining his 1vxer highlight vids? Keep stuff killy I say, and let the mechanics make the fight interesting.

    Uhhh because in the serious PvE end game 3 Necromancers are required but pity the 3 people who have to play them. They’re clunky as anything.

    And they also do the lowest damage generally, which is probably good for group balance but sucks for the 3 Necros.

    So the complaint is not about balance per se, but rather fun. It’s not fun to be forced to run Necro, it’s not fun to not being able to play your preferred class.

    Thats the reason why i think the need for 3 necros for best dps is ***, you cant cheese it with any other class ...
    Edited by Quantorn on August 9, 2020 10:11PM
  • karekiz
    karekiz
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    ✭✭
    Other reasons
    Quantorn wrote: »
    SlimeBro1 wrote: »
    Quantorn wrote: »

    The class literally gives no major buffs.

    This is offset by providing major debuffs. That, my friend, is called balance and makes Necromancer unique. Necromancer should be a debuffing class.

    Also necromancer in raids is "alright", not the best. At least in the few vet raids I have done nobody has said anything about needing necros.

    Think you might be looking a bit too far into it.

    PvE wise it is probably one of the more well balanced classes stat-wise. Unfortunately stam beats magicka pretty hard. stamcro is just flatout better than magcro in both PvP and PvE. If anything, magcro needs some pretty hefty buffs in order to make it on-par with its stam counterpart.

    If you remove major vulnerability you will be messing with what makes this class stand out. Reminds me of the people who say Nightblade is a must in PvP because they have cloak, in full honesty. Nothing against you or anything, I just don't see how this unique thing Necro provides makes it a must for raids.

    At that point we might as well look at the best 'gear' for raids too, eh?

    Idk in which grous you are raiding, but if you want to progress you need 3 Necro ults or you loose massive amounts of DPS on the bosses and trashgroups
    The fact that yes is winning is sad.

    I main a necro. Its my favorite class. But we are far from any sort of over powered.

    The tradeoff for that Major Vuln is:

    -No execute ability
    -no gap closers or Major Expedition ability (we are the slowest class)
    -a spammable that requires 3 casts for a benefit, meaning most will stick with weapon skill spammables
    -no burst heals for anyone outside of ourselves
    -literally 0 buffs outside of Major Resolve and the Goliath transformation

    Necros give up a lot and all we get in return is AOE breach & fracture OR the opportunity to use our own synergy - for mag users only, Major Vuln, Goliath transformation, and the 3 man insta-rez which is situational at best.

    Im not saying necro is overpowerd, he is not as a class itself in PvE... . My point is, you have to have 3 Colossus because the give so much bonus DPS. In my opinion the necro class itself should be a bit reworked, the skills should be fixed. But his changes nothing about 30% (with cooldown ~15%) more DPS debuffs that are *** high... . There is no other class, being such a must have cause of bonus DPS.

    And:
    -No execute ability
    ( ~ no, you have a softexecute with you passive (100% crit are rly strong in PvE), DK is the only class withgout execute)
    -no gap closers or Major Expedition ability (we are the slowest class)
    (~ DK is also slow)
    -a spammable that requires 3 casts for a benefit, meaning most will stick with weapon skill spammables
    (X nope, skull is strong because it also gets buffed from engulfing unlike every other non DK spammable (and you have your bonus dmg on every 3td cast))
    -no burst heals for anyone outside of ourselves
    (X resistant flesh can be castet on every one ... )
    -literally 0 buffs outside of Major Resolve and the Goliath transformation
    ( X wtf, did you ever looked on your skills, you have many utility skills ...)

    aggressive warhorn is still considered better than colossus.

    What? You can run both. It isn't like its a choice. Tank/Heals on Horn - X3 Necro DPS on Colossus.
  • Danksta
    Danksta
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    nsmurfer wrote: »
    @SlimeBro1 every score pushing groups uses 5-6 necro DDs out 8. How is it balanced?

    No reason to have more than 3 since they're only there for major vuln
    BawKinTackWarDs PS4/NA

  • p00tx
    p00tx
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    ✭✭
    Yes, but it's fine
    nsmurfer wrote: »
    @SlimeBro1 every score pushing groups uses 5-6 necro DDs out 8. How is it balanced?

    Nope. 3 max for optimum uptime. It can be done with 2 if they're using Necrotic Potency on add pulls. If you're seeing groups that are demanding more, you're in groups of uninformed players and I wouldn't worry too much about what they say.
    PC/Xbox NA Mindmender|Swashbuckler Supreme|Planes Breaker|Dawnbringer|Godslayer|Immortal Redeemer|Gryphon Heart|Tick-tock Tormentor|Dro-m'Athra Destroyer|Stormproof|Grand Overlord|Grand Mastercrafter|Master Grappler|Tamriel Hero
  • xF1REFL1x
    xF1REFL1x
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    By far my favorite class... and 3 is what our guild runs.
  • Atherakhia
    Atherakhia
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    Your poll is short sighted. You should have added an option for allowing Major Vuln to be put on another class. There are tons of ultimate morphs out there that get absolutely no play currently in PvE or PvP and owuld be prime candidates for major vuln.

    Now with that out of the way, another issue will come up if they gave Major Vuln in another spot: Magicka Necromancers are total garbage in this game. They have the lowest raw DPS of all other mag classes, their class is plagued with mechanics that don't work in either PvE or PvP, and Colossus is the only reason anyone considers bringing one (3....) at all.

    So yes, Major Vuln on Collossus is too strong for a single class to have but spreading it out, like they should, will likely result in no Necromancer ever going to a trial again.
  • ecru
    ecru
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    if you got rid of major vuln magcro would need to actually be good at doing something else
    Gryphon Heart
    Godslayer
    Dawnbringer
  • idk
    idk
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    Why do people challenge others to change their mind when they are never interested in being open to information that would lead them to change their mind.
  • Playboy_Shrek
    Playboy_Shrek
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    Yes, and the Major Vuln debuff should be nerfed to 15% ( minor is 8%, major is most of the time 2x minor )
    honestly. just remove the vulnerability all together and make the ult charge less and increase damage
  • p00tx
    p00tx
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    ✭✭
    Yes, but it's fine
    honestly. just remove the vulnerability all together and make the ult charge less and increase damage

    Sooo...just turn them into a crappier version of a Nightblade?
    PC/Xbox NA Mindmender|Swashbuckler Supreme|Planes Breaker|Dawnbringer|Godslayer|Immortal Redeemer|Gryphon Heart|Tick-tock Tormentor|Dro-m'Athra Destroyer|Stormproof|Grand Overlord|Grand Mastercrafter|Master Grappler|Tamriel Hero
  • IonicKai
    IonicKai
    ✭✭✭✭
    Yes, but it's fine
    nsmurfer wrote: »
    @SlimeBro1 every score pushing groups uses 5-6 necro DDs out 8. How is it balanced?

    What patch are you playing? Groups run 2-3 necros (typically 3) because any more than that is an L. Necros are not the hardest hitting DPS usually because in content the class is buggy. Go look at any recent top clears and it isn't 6 necros.... When the necro came out over a year ago yeah it was stack stam necros but the moment they put a cooldown on major vuln it stopped that.
  • Kittytravel
    Kittytravel
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    Yes, but it's fine
    As most people have said the tradeoff they get for the major invuln is probably the clunkiest crappiest class with the most horrendous time keeping up their rotation. They aren't even the hardest hitting DPS so running too many of them even with the uptime is a net loss.
    Removing major vuln would also require the class being completely fixed of all it's blastbone bugs and if that hasn't happened by now I don't expect it to happen by then end of the year.
  • Lalothen
    Lalothen
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    Yes, but it's fine
    I don't get the supposed rationalisation on the "Yes and nerf Major Vuln" option stating that "minor is 8%, Major is most of the time 2x Minor".... Maim & Defile are both 15/30, which satisfies the 2x difference but not the 8% statement. Minor Enervation (granted it's PvP, but still a debuff) is 12%. Fracture/Breach have a 4x difference between Minor & Major (not sure off-hand how 1320/5280 work out as percentages, but since they're not subject to diminishing returns that's irrelevant). Then let's talk about parity with buffs, which vary even more: 5/15 (Slayer, Aegis), 10/15 (Force), 8/25 (Berserk), 10/20 (Sorcery, Brutality), 6/10 (Savagery, Prophecy), 8/30 (Prot, Vit)......

    Frankly, strictly from a debuff point of view there's greater established precedent to increase Minor Vuln to 15% to be on par with Maim/Defile, than there is to reduce Major Vuln to 15%....

    Beyond that it's fine that Necros bring something unique to group scenarios, and even if the kinks finally get worked out with regard to BB, siphons, etc, I don't think Major Vuln needs nerfing purely because some people don't like the fact that necros are the only class that can currently provide it.

    That said I could probably get behind a source of Major Vuln being made available to all via a skill line ult (or having it tied to a Trial set in the way Infallible provides a source of Minor Vuln), but Necros would definitely need something to compensate for the loss of exclusivity. Perhaps the Colossus could then provide a unique debuff instead (a la Alkosh, Shadowrend, etc).
    Edited by Lalothen on August 12, 2020 9:51AM
  • Hotdog_23
    Hotdog_23
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    Yes, but it's fine
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXChGX6vM9U

    Dragonknight Main Tank
    Templar Off-Tank
    Warden Healer

    3x Magicka Necromancer DD
    4x Magicka Templar DD
    1x Magicka Sorcerer DD
    1x Magicka Dragonknight DD

    For this groups world record run. Congrats to them for the hard work they put into it and sharing it with everyone.


    Where is the stamina players? 4 templars to help with off healing since only one healer.

    Be safe and have fun :)
  • Red_Feather
    Red_Feather
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    Yes, and the Major Vuln debuff should be nerfed to 15% ( minor is 8%, major is most of the time 2x minor )
    If the colossus vulnerability is changed it would allow the cost to be reduced so it can be used more often. I would like that.
  • p00tx
    p00tx
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    Yes, but it's fine
    If the colossus vulnerability is changed it would allow the cost to be reduced so it can be used more often. I would like that.

    Oh...you must be new here. You guys have to be more careful what you wish for, and pay closer attention to the way changes are made by the devs. Having the Vulnerability values decreased does not mean they will decrease the cost. They're more likely to actually increase it. There is also a cooldown on the effect, and being able to cast more often wouldn't change that. If people are actually light attacking properly, there should be a colossus available on cooldown when needed.
    Edited by p00tx on August 12, 2020 5:12PM
    PC/Xbox NA Mindmender|Swashbuckler Supreme|Planes Breaker|Dawnbringer|Godslayer|Immortal Redeemer|Gryphon Heart|Tick-tock Tormentor|Dro-m'Athra Destroyer|Stormproof|Grand Overlord|Grand Mastercrafter|Master Grappler|Tamriel Hero
  • Red_Feather
    Red_Feather
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    Yes, and the Major Vuln debuff should be nerfed to 15% ( minor is 8%, major is most of the time 2x minor )
    @p00tx I did not know about a cooldown. thank you
  • katorga
    katorga
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    No, it isn't
    Why on earth would I want to nerf a a major buff (and the class that provides it) that lets my group, and myself do 30% more damage?

    I don't care how I get it, I like it
  • robpr
    robpr
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    No, it isn't
    I'm up for class composition diversity. Every class can provide something to the group, but only Necros are required in multiple numbers without differentiating stam/mag versions for max uptime. Simple solution would be giving stamina or magicka necro something unique (like StamDK stagger) while increasing duration and cd on Major Vul so for this debuff you'd need just one. When we are at it, give something like this for Stamdens too.

    Stamden could increase bleed and physical damage over time damage on throwing pidgeon at someone
    Stamcro could increase disease damage or give allies extra disease damage to enemies standing in siphon
    (wild ideas)
  • BeamsForDemacia
    BeamsForDemacia
    ✭✭✭
    Yes, but it's fine
    as long as i dont have to play that buggy class its ok and shouldnt be nerfed otherwise we lose powercreep Oo
    IR/GH/TTT/GS [MEDUSA]
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