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With the release of 6.1.0, the Vampire skill line will be an abject failure of game design.

  • Rikakiah
    Rikakiah
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    Dovakhan wrote: »
    TBH, I only have Vampirism on my crafter cos of the passives granting invis while sprinting, and the one that allows you to ignore sneak's speed penalty. Hope they don't screw that, too.

    Those are really the skills I made my khajiit for--to be a super stealth thieving assassin. Assuming they don't mess with that, my goal is technically met. It is a shame that, while it's fun to play, it feels like it takes a lot of work to even be on par with a non-vampire of the same class.

    A bat swarm closer would be awesome and what I thought a morph o mist form would be. At least I have Lotus Fan, but it seems like something that should be tailor made to a vampire. Since I doubt PVPers would give up their speed form, I'd have to give up my aoe form (which does pretty poor aoe, but can easily heal me up in a pinch). "Transform into a swarm of bats, converging on your target up to 22 (28? whatever most closers are) meters away, setting them off balanced and you receive 75% less damage for (3-5?) seconds."
    Edited by Rikakiah on August 1, 2020 11:20PM
  • SlimeBro1
    SlimeBro1
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    Rikakiah wrote: »
    Dovakhan wrote: »
    TBH, I only have Vampirism on my crafter cos of the passives granting invis while sprinting, and the one that allows you to ignore sneak's speed penalty. Hope they don't screw that, too.

    Those are really the skills I made my khajiit for--to be a super stealth thieving assassin. Assuming they don't mess with that, my goal is technically met. It is a shame that, while it's fun to play, it feels like it takes a lot of work to even be on par with a non-vampire of the same class.

    A bat swarm closer would be awesome and what I thought a morph o mist form would be. At least I have Lotus Fan, but it seems like something that should be tailor made to a vampire. Since I doubt PVPers would give up their speed form, I'd have to give up my aoe form (which does pretty poor aoe, but can easily heal me up in a pinch). "Transform into a swarm of bats, converging on your target up to 22 (28? whatever most closers are) meters away, setting them off balanced and you receive 75% less damage for (3-5?) seconds."

    That would be so cool it'd fix my main issue with the line
  • Thannazzar
    Thannazzar
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    SlimeBro1 wrote: »
    Rikakiah wrote: »
    Dovakhan wrote: »
    TBH, I only have Vampirism on my crafter cos of the passives granting invis while sprinting, and the one that allows you to ignore sneak's speed penalty. Hope they don't screw that, too.

    Those are really the skills I made my khajiit for--to be a super stealth thieving assassin. Assuming they don't mess with that, my goal is technically met. It is a shame that, while it's fun to play, it feels like it takes a lot of work to even be on par with a non-vampire of the same class.

    A bat swarm closer would be awesome and what I thought a morph o mist form would be. At least I have Lotus Fan, but it seems like something that should be tailor made to a vampire. Since I doubt PVPers would give up their speed form, I'd have to give up my aoe form (which does pretty poor aoe, but can easily heal me up in a pinch). "Transform into a swarm of bats, converging on your target up to 22 (28? whatever most closers are) meters away, setting them off balanced and you receive 75% less damage for (3-5?) seconds."

    That would be so cool it'd fix my main issue with the line

    And if they also gave us a non transform scion morph that would be great too.
  • Thannazzar
    Thannazzar
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    ZOS reaction to PTS Feedback on vamps (or most content to be honest)

    e1rg2vkn9z9k.gif
  • SlimeBro1
    SlimeBro1
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    Thannazzar wrote: »
    ZOS reaction to PTS Feedback on vamps (or most content to be honest)

    e1rg2vkn9z9k.gif

    This is so true it hurts.
  • ManM
    ManM
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    I suspect they are listening, but they interpret the feedback as positive, not negative. At this point, they are very clearly trying to make vampire a liability for group play. Complaints about how vampire is not viable are landing in the 'working as intended' pile. Threads such as this are misidentifying the core design principles of vampire, as Zos is executing it.

    Are vampires being marginalized from group content, so that no one wants them around? Yes. Anything a vampire can do in group content, a mortal can do better. Design goal is being met.

    Does the vampire toolkit represent a power increase in solo content? Quite clearly yes. A vampire gets several abilities that make it superior to mortal in solo content. Design goal is being met.

    With vampire being tuned solely for overland play, here are a couple things I believe could be improved:
    • Frenzy - The reward for using this skill isn't worth the risk. Against anything smaller than a world boss, having frenzy up might shave a second or two from the usual time to kill, and not much more. Against a world boss, you are likely taking too much damage to want to add self-inflicted frenzy damage to the mix. In theory this sounds like a neat skill, but in practice, it's just annoying to manage, and the time saved from the extra damage is not worth the risk and effort. I don't know if this can be salvaged, as the mechanic itself is just tedious.
    • Drain - This is not worth using. The damage is trivial. The healing, well, when you lock yourself into the channel, you are still taking damage. If you are getting hit hard enough to want to use this to heal yourself, you are getting hit hard enough to significantly counteract it's healing over the duration of the channel. Sitting in blood mist is a better total heal over time. I think this would be far more interesting if it's damage were given the properties of an execute, with a 300-400% damage increase against targets below 25% health. You still wouldn't bring a channeled skill into a DPS parse or anything, but for immersion in overland content, killing a weakened enemy with a drain that rejuvenates yourself is about as vampiric as you can get.



  • Elusiin
    Elusiin
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    I don't understand why it is so hard for them to take the feedback. Is the lead developer a narcissist or something?? Like someone challenge this ego trip, the fact is that the design of the vampire is trash and incomplete.
  • MincVinyl
    MincVinyl
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    Elusiin wrote: »
    I don't understand why it is so hard for them to take the feedback. Is the lead developer a narcissist or something?? Like someone challenge this ego trip, the fact is that the design of the vampire is trash and incomplete.

    Tbh half the ideas put through the forums are terrible, not trying to be mean or off putting, but Ive seen some rather silly posts/requests.
  • Rikakiah
    Rikakiah
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    Being on Xbox, I don't have access to the pts, but my understanding is BfB has had its "execute" damage max reduced and prevents healing for 5 seconds, is that correct? That healing prevention, does it apply to just outside healing, or all healing? If it's just outside healing, I could get behind that. Right now, in groups, I can't get my health below 90%, let alone 50. Unless I pop Frenzy, but stacking that with BfB goes pear shaped really fast. Complete side-note: I've been able to keep Simmering Frenzy up a surprisingly long time with the other Eviscerate morph, though, and that style's a lot of fun to play. Not sure what spell power it got up to, though, since I don't dare open my character screen doing that.

    If self-healing is still allowed, this would be a way for many classes to self-regulate their damage vs risk that is currently impossible in a group. Classes with healing options could learn to ride their health with BfB, while those without (or choosing not to use) could still have a workable ability with the other morph and balancing Frenzy depending on their healer's ability. However, if it negates self-heals, too, it's a guaranteed death sentence to use in any content that has enemies that do damage...
  • Stahlor
    Stahlor
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    @Rikakiah
    That might work in dungeons. For trials this won't be viable anymore and this is usually the place where you have trouble with sustain.
  • SlimeBro1
    SlimeBro1
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    MincVinyl wrote: »
    Elusiin wrote: »
    I don't understand why it is so hard for them to take the feedback. Is the lead developer a narcissist or something?? Like someone challenge this ego trip, the fact is that the design of the vampire is trash and incomplete.

    Tbh half the ideas put through the forums are terrible, not trying to be mean or off putting, but Ive seen some rather silly posts/requests.

    This is true, but all of the vampire rework requests have been pretty logical.
  • SlimeBro1
    SlimeBro1
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    Rikakiah wrote: »
    Being on Xbox, I don't have access to the pts, but my understanding is BfB has had its "execute" damage max reduced and prevents healing for 5 seconds, is that correct? That healing prevention, does it apply to just outside healing, or all healing? If it's just outside healing, I could get behind that. Right now, in groups, I can't get my health below 90%, let alone 50. Unless I pop Frenzy, but stacking that with BfB goes pear shaped really fast. Complete side-note: I've been able to keep Simmering Frenzy up a surprisingly long time with the other Eviscerate morph, though, and that style's a lot of fun to play. Not sure what spell power it got up to, though, since I don't dare open my character screen doing that.

    If self-healing is still allowed, this would be a way for many classes to self-regulate their damage vs risk that is currently impossible in a group. Classes with healing options could learn to ride their health with BfB, while those without (or choosing not to use) could still have a workable ability with the other morph and balancing Frenzy depending on their healer's ability. However, if it negates self-heals, too, it's a guaranteed death sentence to use in any content that has enemies that do damage...

    Here's the thing. The class shouldnt HAVE to cut you off from working with a group in order to function.


    Even if somehow you can get it to work, it is still bad design. In a game where end game content requires a team and working together, playing a style that literally cuts you off from being supported with said team won't work. I will be very surprised if people are still able to take vamp into endgame dungeons after this patch.

    If they wanted to dive full in on vampire being a "loner" class then they should of based the entire class design around such. The abilities could synergize better for such a concept.
  • Rikakiah
    Rikakiah
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    SlimeBro1 wrote: »
    Rikakiah wrote: »
    Being on Xbox, I don't have access to the pts, but my understanding is BfB has had its "execute" damage max reduced and prevents healing for 5 seconds, is that correct? That healing prevention, does it apply to just outside healing, or all healing? If it's just outside healing, I could get behind that. Right now, in groups, I can't get my health below 90%, let alone 50. Unless I pop Frenzy, but stacking that with BfB goes pear shaped really fast. Complete side-note: I've been able to keep Simmering Frenzy up a surprisingly long time with the other Eviscerate morph, though, and that style's a lot of fun to play. Not sure what spell power it got up to, though, since I don't dare open my character screen doing that.

    If self-healing is still allowed, this would be a way for many classes to self-regulate their damage vs risk that is currently impossible in a group. Classes with healing options could learn to ride their health with BfB, while those without (or choosing not to use) could still have a workable ability with the other morph and balancing Frenzy depending on their healer's ability. However, if it negates self-heals, too, it's a guaranteed death sentence to use in any content that has enemies that do damage...

    Here's the thing. The class shouldnt HAVE to cut you off from working with a group in order to function.


    Even if somehow you can get it to work, it is still bad design. In a game where end game content requires a team and working together, playing a style that literally cuts you off from being supported with said team won't work. I will be very surprised if people are still able to take vamp into endgame dungeons after this patch.

    If they wanted to dive full in on vampire being a "loner" class then they should of based the entire class design around such. The abilities could synergize better for such a concept.

    Well, technically, it's the 1 morph of 1 skill that is decidedly anti-group (the other morph benefits from low health, but only marginally, unless you're stacking all damage an no crit to rely on the sub-50% health crit guarantee). Frenzy is a different beast and probably needs a re-look, too, but it's theoretically workable in a group.

    But you're right--any style that relies on competitive damage by staying on the threshold of death can't possibly be viable in a group. First, a healer can't really single you out to not heal so you'll be fighting their magicka pool just to even get down there. Second, unless you're super stacking health (which dampens your damage as it trades damage stats to do so), you're living in 1-shot territory even for trash adds and "nuisance" aoe in harder content.

    I am really curious how their design talks go concerning vampires.
  • Evemir
    Evemir
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    The problem with vampirism is that it is made exclusively for single-player play in overland. Well, maybe even for a gank in Cyrodiil. It is too weak to exist in pve.

    The idea that a vampire as a separate subclass that changes the entire game is great. But the problem is how it changes. All vampire skills are quite weak and boring, half of them do not deserve to be used at all. At the same time, the imposed drawbacks will not go anywhere. And we find ourselves in the situation that a non-vampire will be stronger than a vampire in pve, while the vampire can not give up his vampirism for one dungeon and then continue to play as a vampire in overland. If you're a vampire, you make your character weaker in pve. But for what? For the sake of RP?
    Vampirism is the only thing in the game that makes your character objectively and irreversibly weaker in pve for the sake of rp and overland.
    This is a very strange game design.
  • Lord-Otto
    Lord-Otto
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    ✭✭✭
    Evemir wrote: »
    The problem with vampirism is that it is made exclusively for single-player play in overland. Well, maybe even for a gank in Cyrodiil. It is too weak to exist in pve.

    The idea that a vampire as a separate subclass that changes the entire game is great. But the problem is how it changes. All vampire skills are quite weak and boring, half of them do not deserve to be used at all. At the same time, the imposed drawbacks will not go anywhere. And we find ourselves in the situation that a non-vampire will be stronger than a vampire in pve, while the vampire can not give up his vampirism for one dungeon and then continue to play as a vampire in overland. If you're a vampire, you make your character weaker in pve. But for what? For the sake of RP?
    Vampirism is the only thing in the game that makes your character objectively and irreversibly weaker in pve for the sake of rp and overland.
    This is a very strange game design.

    That is a very complicated way of saying: "ZOS effed up!"...
  • Robula
    Robula
    Soul Shriven
    Evemir wrote: »
    The problem with vampirism is that it is made exclusively for single-player play in overland. Well, maybe even for a gank in Cyrodiil. It is too weak to exist in pve.

    The idea that a vampire as a separate subclass that changes the entire game is great. But the problem is how it changes. All vampire skills are quite weak and boring, half of them do not deserve to be used at all. At the same time, the imposed drawbacks will not go anywhere. And we find ourselves in the situation that a non-vampire will be stronger than a vampire in pve, while the vampire can not give up his vampirism for one dungeon and then continue to play as a vampire in overland. If you're a vampire, you make your character weaker in pve. But for what? For the sake of RP?
    Vampirism is the only thing in the game that makes your character objectively and irreversibly weaker in pve for the sake of rp and overland.
    This is a very strange game design.
    RP is only reason keeping me playing as a Vampire, but even then I just use my Magcro skills more because they get the job done in overland. I've literally stopped doing dungeons (I either heal or DPS) because it's just not viable when above Stage 1.

    I've been strongly considering getting a cure just so I can enjoy the game. I mean sure I can keep buying stacks of Purifying Bloody Mara and eating 3 of those before every dungeon but I shouldn't have to. The sad thing is, I came back to ESO for Greymoor and the Vampire rework and got my first character to 50, I'm just a little disappointed with Vampirism overall.
    Edited by Robula on August 8, 2020 6:31PM
  • precambria
    precambria
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    I am from the future, this post was from july 14th, I can report back in time to say, actually the new vampire is quite awesome and has added a lot of options for various builds that now require making choices rather just just having it for free passive gains.
  • SlimeBro1
    SlimeBro1
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    precambria wrote: »
    I am from the future, this post was from july 14th, I can report back in time to say, actually the new vampire is quite awesome and has added a lot of options for various builds that now require making choices rather just just having it for free passive gains.

    Considering people are still posting even today, you're absolutely wrong.

    It is not awesome to many, many people and what options for various builds has it added, exactly? Do tell me.

    And literally nobody on this entire thread wants it to be taken for free passives. We just want to be an actual vampire, not a blood fiend.

    Really curious to hear what various builds are being made with vampire though considering out of the 5 pages of people on this thread not a single one has been able to make an effective build with the skill line, I'm not sure what you're going on about.

    If this patch goes through the only semi-viable build for vampire, which used literally just blood for blood, will not be viable. As the thread says, the skill line is an object failure of game design.

    Feel free to think the new vampire rework is awesome as that is your opinion. But keep in mind the majority of people do not like it and think it is indeed a failure of game design and there is evidence to prove such. People can still think bad movies are awesome, same idea applies here I am afraid. And even if people think said bad movies are awesome they are still....bad movies. Same could be said here. You think the skill line is awesome? Great. The evidence and quality doesn't back up that though, thus why majority are unhappy, so therefore it is a failure of game design.
    Edited by SlimeBro1 on August 10, 2020 8:58AM
  • ParaViking
    ParaViking
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    I voted with my feet... The only thing ZOS will understand...
  • nk125x
    nk125x
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    Well I voted by curing all my vamps - The vamp skill line is literally dead
  • Kardrik
    Kardrik
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    It needs stamina friendliness, it needs a better reason to go stage 4, it could definitely use a gap closer.

    But you know what I think the biggest thing it needs?

    It needs self healing and regeneration!

    No reason a Vampire should have such a hard time keeping their health up, especially since they burn so much of it fighting. I should be feeding off of the vitality of my enemies, that is what vampires do!
    Right now they do not, and thats what needs to be fixed.

    The BfB changes wont be so bad if vampires get better ways to self heal!
    Also BfB should be less punishing to use in later stages, or just stronger in later stages, and not just in health cost.
    The vampire abilities need to improve in more than just cost for later stages.
  • Ozymandias_13
    Ozymandias_13
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    I provided more than enough feedback, and was pretty vocal on my opinion of these changes (especially because I am a healer main). In the end is was meaningless. I was looking forward to active vampire gameplay, but not this...

    I played once after the vampire change to give it a chance and haven't been back since. I came on the forums today to see if anyone's perspective changed with further testing, but it doesn't look like it. At this point i'm not holding my breath on coming back to the game, and I'm glad I didn't buy Greymoor.
    Edited by Ozymandias_13 on August 24, 2020 2:12PM
  • ParaViking
    ParaViking
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    Have they fixed it yet? Ha! Ha!..
  • Vevvev
    Vevvev
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    Nope!

    Shame they're leaving it in this state.
    PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK
  • Refratado
    Refratado
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    Vampires should be OP and that is it. The Devs should've know this before giving us the chance to recieve a blessing like Noxiphilic Sanguivoria, giving us directly from Llamae. And by the way, wtf is that flame weakness? Stop the lore-break please.
  • Vevvev
    Vevvev
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    I don't mind the flame weakness as its kinda expected in the series. Now the negation of the flame weakness thanks to the "Perfect Scion" thing is a bit silly. That being said the morph really needs a more useful effect to be worth slotting over Swarming Scion since its a no brainer to pick extra damage over the course of 18 seconds than Perfect Scion giving stage 5 vampirsim and costing one light attack's worth of ultimate less.
    Edited by Vevvev on September 16, 2020 5:26PM
    PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK
  • Vayln_Ninetails
    Vayln_Ninetails
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    Refratado wrote: »
    Vampires should be OP and that is it. The Devs should've know this before giving us the chance to recieve a blessing like Noxiphilic Sanguivoria, giving us directly from Llamae. And by the way, wtf is that flame weakness? Stop the lore-break please.

    I just think it is kind of funny that we can get possibly the most rare, best vampiric line (they literally do not have a weakness to sun.) that is bestowed upon us by THE FIRST vampire herself.

    Yet she can't give us a form or power similar to a vampire lord? Why are our powers more like that of a blood fiend compared to what the grayhost can use?

  • Nova_J
    Nova_J
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    Refratado wrote: »
    Vampires should be OP and that is it. The Devs should've know this before giving us the chance to recieve a blessing like Noxiphilic Sanguivoria, giving us directly from Llamae. And by the way, wtf is that flame weakness? Stop the lore-break please.

    I just think it is kind of funny that we can get possibly the most rare, best vampiric line (they literally do not have a weakness to sun.) that is bestowed upon us by THE FIRST vampire herself.

    Yet she can't give us a form or power similar to a vampire lord? Why are our powers more like that of a blood fiend compared to what the grayhost can use?

    Because ZOS has a vision that they still haven't told us about lol. Jk, they just dont know what to do with it anymore probably. The line really needs major changes and they probably dont want to put anymore manpower into since the line just had major changes.
  • Vayln_Ninetails
    Vayln_Ninetails
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    Nova_J wrote: »
    Refratado wrote: »
    Vampires should be OP and that is it. The Devs should've know this before giving us the chance to recieve a blessing like Noxiphilic Sanguivoria, giving us directly from Llamae. And by the way, wtf is that flame weakness? Stop the lore-break please.

    I just think it is kind of funny that we can get possibly the most rare, best vampiric line (they literally do not have a weakness to sun.) that is bestowed upon us by THE FIRST vampire herself.

    Yet she can't give us a form or power similar to a vampire lord? Why are our powers more like that of a blood fiend compared to what the grayhost can use?

    Because ZOS has a vision that they still haven't told us about lol. Jk, they just dont know what to do with it anymore probably. The line really needs major changes and they probably dont want to put anymore manpower into since the line just had major changes.

    Literally all they have to do is just give us the same skills with adjusted values as the grayhost vampires.

    That's all. If they want to get spicy give us a blood scion with a Bloodknight-looking morph and a Vampire lord one.

    I don't know what their vision is aside from making us appear like bloodfiends. Speaking of though, did you know Verandis in the new prologue quest uses PLAYER vampire skills for once? This leads me to believe for some reason we're using the same line as ravenwatch vampires I guess.

    But even then he can do things we can't, like summon blood minions and stuff....
  • Nova_J
    Nova_J
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    Nova_J wrote: »
    Refratado wrote: »
    Vampires should be OP and that is it. The Devs should've know this before giving us the chance to recieve a blessing like Noxiphilic Sanguivoria, giving us directly from Llamae. And by the way, wtf is that flame weakness? Stop the lore-break please.

    I just think it is kind of funny that we can get possibly the most rare, best vampiric line (they literally do not have a weakness to sun.) that is bestowed upon us by THE FIRST vampire herself.

    Yet she can't give us a form or power similar to a vampire lord? Why are our powers more like that of a blood fiend compared to what the grayhost can use?

    Because ZOS has a vision that they still haven't told us about lol. Jk, they just dont know what to do with it anymore probably. The line really needs major changes and they probably dont want to put anymore manpower into since the line just had major changes.

    Literally all they have to do is just give us the same skills with adjusted values as the grayhost vampires.

    That's all. If they want to get spicy give us a blood scion with a Bloodknight-looking morph and a Vampire lord one.

    I don't know what their vision is aside from making us appear like bloodfiends. Speaking of though, did you know Verandis in the new prologue quest uses PLAYER vampire skills for once? This leads me to believe for some reason we're using the same line as ravenwatch vampires I guess.

    But even then he can do things we can't, like summon blood minions and stuff....

    Lol I didnt realize that no. That's another small hole to the swiss cheese of these vampire changes.
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