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So they finally nerfed Sorcerer

  • MartiniDaniels
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    x48rph wrote: »
    Buffing other builds is not a nerf. Just saying.

    A class doesn't exist in a vacuum. If every other class get's a shiny new toy but one can't use it, it's an indirect nerf to that class.

    Or how would you think about if every other class but your main would get, idk, 10k free resources (as overexaggerated example).

    How about healing was nerfed, but shields remained the same. And you know there is class, whose shields are superior to shields of other magicka specs?
    Ah, also ZOS changed how pets work with bloodthirsty trait and crit chance and what a surprise there is one class which has access to numerous pets and ability which buffs this pets?
    And as you can see Liko parses 93k with that new vampire spammable without problems, using only 7 ability buttons:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FCkrpoleBU
    While magicka nightblade parses same 93k using all 10 and more then that, can't even drop health for max efficiency of blood for blood:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqqssc7eqGQ
    And magblades class buff is useless for magicka group, while magsorc has guarunteed slot due to minor prophecy.
  • likecats
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    x48rph wrote: »
    Buffing other builds is not a nerf. Just saying.

    A class doesn't exist in a vacuum. If every other class get's a shiny new toy but one can't use it, it's an indirect nerf to that class.

    Or how would you think about if every other class but your main would get, idk, 10k free resources (as overexaggerated example).

    Firstly, there are multiple classes that will not benefit from Malacath, so its not every other class.

    Secondly, buffing others up is not the same as nerfing one down. While the end results of these both things will be the same in terms of balance/equality/mathematics, the means through one achieves balance is very important when you are dealing with real people. Many people struggle to understand this.
  • Knightpanther
    Knightpanther
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    x48rph wrote: »
    Buffing other builds is not a nerf. Just saying.

    A class doesn't exist in a vacuum. If every other class get's a shiny new toy but one can't use it, it's an indirect nerf to that class.

    Or how would you think about if every other class but your main would get, idk, 10k free resources (as overexaggerated example).

    How about healing was nerfed, but shields remained the same. And you know there is class, whose shields are superior to shields of other magicka specs?
    Ah, also ZOS changed how pets work with bloodthirsty trait and crit chance and what a surprise there is one class which has access to numerous pets and ability which buffs this pets?
    And as you can see Liko parses 93k with that new vampire spammable without problems, using only 7 ability buttons:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FCkrpoleBU
    While magicka nightblade parses same 93k using all 10 and more then that, can't even drop health for max efficiency of blood for blood:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqqssc7eqGQ
    And magblades class buff is useless for magicka group, while magsorc has guarunteed slot due to minor prophecy.

    Some nice dps there but in PVP

    ocjW0G5.jpg

    Be Safe
  • Chilly-McFreeze
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    [snip]

    ***, nice. And how does that contradicts anything I said? Especially if you consider the existence of PvP and Stam Sorcs? My statement remains.
    likecats wrote: »
    x48rph wrote: »
    Buffing other builds is not a nerf. Just saying.

    A class doesn't exist in a vacuum. If every other class get's a shiny new toy but one can't use it, it's an indirect nerf to that class.

    Or how would you think about if every other class but your main would get, idk, 10k free resources (as overexaggerated example).

    Firstly, there are multiple classes that will not benefit from Malacath, so its not every other class.

    Secondly, buffing others up is not the same as nerfing one down. While the end results of these both things will be the same in terms of balance/equality/mathematics, the means through one achieves balance is very important when you are dealing with real people. Many people struggle to understand this.

    I do agree with this. Yet I think that even tho, or better yet: because malacath's band is quite useable on mag sorcs or pet builds due to the points others mentioned, people tend to forget that sorc builds outside of mag exist. Stamsorcs weren't OP in pvp. Not in the worst spot either. But throwing Malacath's out like this still puts them down the ladder as there are many SS that make good use of surge. But what gives? Back to Rally + Vigor to fit the meta.
  • YandereGirlfriend
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    I still not sure why Malacath's permits Critical Healing to occur. Seems like a much more balanced "kiss-curse" item if it zeroed that out as well.

    With the introduction of the supremely over-tuned 20% baseline Critical Resistance in PvP, Critical-based builds are already going to be an endangered species. As such, for most classes and most damage builds, there really is not much downside at all to simply abandoning Critical Hits and speccing exclusively into Damage and Penetration and stacking it with Malacath's.

    My glass canon, Critical Hit-based magSorc will try to stick it out but at a certain point you simply can't fight continue to fight the ocean.
  • shaielzafine
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    So, every Magicka character will be a vampire?

    Aren't they already?
  • WrathOfInnos
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    Jacozilla wrote: »
    Tessitura wrote: »
    Jacozilla wrote: »
    Tessitura wrote: »
    THis is the second post I have seen you make about how much you don't like the new vamp stuff cause you think it's too strong. There is a very real risk of dying using vampire abilities, not just because of the short range but also because of the health cost, yeah your burst numbers are high but most classes won't keep up on the sustained dps. Warden and Necromancer with their high passive healing probably will be able to sustain it the best, and they were both on the lower end of magicka dps to begin with.

    I think you need to take a minute to calm down, this won't be the dramatic world ender you think. Most people will not run vampire. And the ones that do will mostly be burst set ups or aoe set ups. Sorc with out blood for blood is still a super high dps that can stay a safe distance away from melee boss mechanics. You won't need it to stay high up on the dps totem pole.

    Not disagreeing with spirit of your post but your example justification is flat wrong. E.g. re: warden and necro on lower end of mag dps.

    Mag warden was nearly tied with mag dk as top mag dps in harrowstorm (look at liko, skinny cheeks, etc parses - mag warden is basically tied or just barely behind mag dk as #1 mag dps). You might be confusing mag warden to low dps state after it launched.

    Mag necro same thing, at launch and before blastbones fixes, it was low end, but with harrowstorm was upper middle. Magsorc actually had lowest dps (for pve, still S+ tier in pvp)

    On a parse? Duh they were high, but in practical use they were low up until very recently, Magdens spent most of their time on the low end, not just after their launch So no I was not wrong about that. I stopped playing for a little while when Harrowstorm dropped so maybe there is a change, but forgive me for not accepting a dps parse as proof of performance in the game. When i came back Sorcs were still killing it in all the pve content I did with them and I am still not seeing any Warden Mag dps running around outside of pvp and and few cloudrest runs.

    I would like to take my warden mag dps in a few more fights before I dig my heels in on this, but things still seem pretty status quo for them in the actual fights. I am not saying that they did not perform well, they both always preformed well, they just didn't reach the highest numbers. I do wonder if some change was made to the bear that I missed when I looked through some of the patches I missed though, cause I have been seeing a lot more bears recently.

    Also, magcro has always middled, it was on the lower end of middling but it still middled, so even in parses not much has changed, and with the siphon being put back on the gcd those numbers might go down again, I am unsure about that one. I might have been wrong to say magcro was low though, since it was middling, lower middling but middling.

    Look at esologs for actual top tier guild performance, and not sure why you say "duh" re: parses - none of the parses I referenced were using cheese setups but actual rotations as would be done in a trial.

    I also was replying to the current standard - which was the post I replied to. Magwarden used to be low tier, but we weren't talking about historical neglect - both the post I relied to and my reply was specifically about actual current performance.

    As of day ago before this patch, with Harrowstorm, magwarden using real life trial rotation parses was nearly tied with mag DK far ahead of all other mag dps at #1, and mag warden #2 very close behind.

    That is completely false. I spent most of Harrowstorm working on the best possible optimization for Magden PVE DPS and the results were nowhere near those of MagDK. If we look at peak performance, MagDK is about 15% higher than Magden (given the same group and buffs/debuffs). Additionally, both Nightblade and Sorcerer outperformed Warden by a few k. Templar and Necromancer were both very similar to Warden in single target damage, but had much better AoE (and I’d argue that a Necro would be much higher if they could get through a fight without Blastbones and Siphon bugging out).

    Also consider that every class on that list other than Warden and Nightblade brings something useful to the group.
  • Jacozilla
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    Jacozilla wrote: »
    Tessitura wrote: »
    Jacozilla wrote: »
    Tessitura wrote: »
    THis is the second post I have seen you make about how much you don't like the new vamp stuff cause you think it's too strong. There is a very real risk of dying using vampire abilities, not just because of the short range but also because of the health cost, yeah your burst numbers are high but most classes won't keep up on the sustained dps. Warden and Necromancer with their high passive healing probably will be able to sustain it the best, and they were both on the lower end of magicka dps to begin with.

    I think you need to take a minute to calm down, this won't be the dramatic world ender you think. Most people will not run vampire. And the ones that do will mostly be burst set ups or aoe set ups. Sorc with out blood for blood is still a super high dps that can stay a safe distance away from melee boss mechanics. You won't need it to stay high up on the dps totem pole.

    Not disagreeing with spirit of your post but your example justification is flat wrong. E.g. re: warden and necro on lower end of mag dps.

    Mag warden was nearly tied with mag dk as top mag dps in harrowstorm (look at liko, skinny cheeks, etc parses - mag warden is basically tied or just barely behind mag dk as #1 mag dps). You might be confusing mag warden to low dps state after it launched.

    Mag necro same thing, at launch and before blastbones fixes, it was low end, but with harrowstorm was upper middle. Magsorc actually had lowest dps (for pve, still S+ tier in pvp)

    On a parse? Duh they were high, but in practical use they were low up until very recently, Magdens spent most of their time on the low end, not just after their launch So no I was not wrong about that. I stopped playing for a little while when Harrowstorm dropped so maybe there is a change, but forgive me for not accepting a dps parse as proof of performance in the game. When i came back Sorcs were still killing it in all the pve content I did with them and I am still not seeing any Warden Mag dps running around outside of pvp and and few cloudrest runs.

    I would like to take my warden mag dps in a few more fights before I dig my heels in on this, but things still seem pretty status quo for them in the actual fights. I am not saying that they did not perform well, they both always preformed well, they just didn't reach the highest numbers. I do wonder if some change was made to the bear that I missed when I looked through some of the patches I missed though, cause I have been seeing a lot more bears recently.

    Also, magcro has always middled, it was on the lower end of middling but it still middled, so even in parses not much has changed, and with the siphon being put back on the gcd those numbers might go down again, I am unsure about that one. I might have been wrong to say magcro was low though, since it was middling, lower middling but middling.

    Look at esologs for actual top tier guild performance, and not sure why you say "duh" re: parses - none of the parses I referenced were using cheese setups but actual rotations as would be done in a trial.

    I also was replying to the current standard - which was the post I replied to. Magwarden used to be low tier, but we weren't talking about historical neglect - both the post I relied to and my reply was specifically about actual current performance.

    As of day ago before this patch, with Harrowstorm, magwarden using real life trial rotation parses was nearly tied with mag DK far ahead of all other mag dps at #1, and mag warden #2 very close behind.

    That is completely false. I spent most of Harrowstorm working on the best possible optimization for Magden PVE DPS and the results were nowhere near those of MagDK. If we look at peak performance, MagDK is about 15% higher than Magden (given the same group and buffs/debuffs). Additionally, both Nightblade and Sorcerer outperformed Warden by a few k. Templar and Necromancer were both very similar to Warden in single target damage, but had much better AoE (and I’d argue that a Necro would be much higher if they could get through a fight without Blastbones and Siphon bugging out).

    Also consider that every class on that list other than Warden and Nightblade brings something useful to the group.

    My reply had nothing to do with what classes are or were more useful to group or not. Someone said mag warden was low tier dps (turns out was wording issue and not what he meant). My reply was purely noting that mag wardens as of harrowstorm was not low tier dps and in fact just behind mag dk for top 2 spots in their own tier above other mag.

    No comment how things will play out with greymoor, but just because your performance doesn’t match doesn’t mean top streamers can’t. If you have an issue whether those numbers they parsed are fake or not, take it up with them - I’m just quoting the data they provided

    The spirit of my reply was simply that mag wardens have come a long way and are no longer bottom heap dps as they were at launch and for some time after.
    Edited by Jacozilla on May 27, 2020 10:08PM
  • WrathOfInnos
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    Jacozilla wrote: »
    Jacozilla wrote: »
    Tessitura wrote: »
    Jacozilla wrote: »
    Tessitura wrote: »
    THis is the second post I have seen you make about how much you don't like the new vamp stuff cause you think it's too strong. There is a very real risk of dying using vampire abilities, not just because of the short range but also because of the health cost, yeah your burst numbers are high but most classes won't keep up on the sustained dps. Warden and Necromancer with their high passive healing probably will be able to sustain it the best, and they were both on the lower end of magicka dps to begin with.

    I think you need to take a minute to calm down, this won't be the dramatic world ender you think. Most people will not run vampire. And the ones that do will mostly be burst set ups or aoe set ups. Sorc with out blood for blood is still a super high dps that can stay a safe distance away from melee boss mechanics. You won't need it to stay high up on the dps totem pole.

    Not disagreeing with spirit of your post but your example justification is flat wrong. E.g. re: warden and necro on lower end of mag dps.

    Mag warden was nearly tied with mag dk as top mag dps in harrowstorm (look at liko, skinny cheeks, etc parses - mag warden is basically tied or just barely behind mag dk as #1 mag dps). You might be confusing mag warden to low dps state after it launched.

    Mag necro same thing, at launch and before blastbones fixes, it was low end, but with harrowstorm was upper middle. Magsorc actually had lowest dps (for pve, still S+ tier in pvp)

    On a parse? Duh they were high, but in practical use they were low up until very recently, Magdens spent most of their time on the low end, not just after their launch So no I was not wrong about that. I stopped playing for a little while when Harrowstorm dropped so maybe there is a change, but forgive me for not accepting a dps parse as proof of performance in the game. When i came back Sorcs were still killing it in all the pve content I did with them and I am still not seeing any Warden Mag dps running around outside of pvp and and few cloudrest runs.

    I would like to take my warden mag dps in a few more fights before I dig my heels in on this, but things still seem pretty status quo for them in the actual fights. I am not saying that they did not perform well, they both always preformed well, they just didn't reach the highest numbers. I do wonder if some change was made to the bear that I missed when I looked through some of the patches I missed though, cause I have been seeing a lot more bears recently.

    Also, magcro has always middled, it was on the lower end of middling but it still middled, so even in parses not much has changed, and with the siphon being put back on the gcd those numbers might go down again, I am unsure about that one. I might have been wrong to say magcro was low though, since it was middling, lower middling but middling.

    Look at esologs for actual top tier guild performance, and not sure why you say "duh" re: parses - none of the parses I referenced were using cheese setups but actual rotations as would be done in a trial.

    I also was replying to the current standard - which was the post I replied to. Magwarden used to be low tier, but we weren't talking about historical neglect - both the post I relied to and my reply was specifically about actual current performance.

    As of day ago before this patch, with Harrowstorm, magwarden using real life trial rotation parses was nearly tied with mag DK far ahead of all other mag dps at #1, and mag warden #2 very close behind.

    That is completely false. I spent most of Harrowstorm working on the best possible optimization for Magden PVE DPS and the results were nowhere near those of MagDK. If we look at peak performance, MagDK is about 15% higher than Magden (given the same group and buffs/debuffs). Additionally, both Nightblade and Sorcerer outperformed Warden by a few k. Templar and Necromancer were both very similar to Warden in single target damage, but had much better AoE (and I’d argue that a Necro would be much higher if they could get through a fight without Blastbones and Siphon bugging out).

    Also consider that every class on that list other than Warden and Nightblade brings something useful to the group.

    Just because you can’t perform on Magden as well as others doesn’t invalidate my point. Non cheese, real trial rotation parses from liko’s harrowstorm series shows magden barely behind magdk.

    No comment how things will play out with greymoor, but in context my reply was centered on, mag dk and magden was nearly tied, and ahead of other classes for pve dps enough that they formed their own top tier during harrowstorm.

    Um, I was the top Magden in Harrowstorm :D. You have to scroll pretty far down the list here past all the magDK’s, Stamcros, and a few Nightblades, but eventually you’ll find my Magden at #56 https://www.esologs.com/zone/rankings/12#boss=44&metric=bossdps&partition=4

    Not sure where your information is coming from.
    Edited by WrathOfInnos on May 27, 2020 10:03PM
  • Hotdog_23
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    Congrats, bet a lot of those DK's fall off this patch and wardens climb up the list.
    Jacozilla wrote: »
    Jacozilla wrote: »
    Tessitura wrote: »
    Jacozilla wrote: »
    Tessitura wrote: »
    THis is the second post I have seen you make about how much you don't like the new vamp stuff cause you think it's too strong. There is a very real risk of dying using vampire abilities, not just because of the short range but also because of the health cost, yeah your burst numbers are high but most classes won't keep up on the sustained dps. Warden and Necromancer with their high passive healing probably will be able to sustain it the best, and they were both on the lower end of magicka dps to begin with.

    I think you need to take a minute to calm down, this won't be the dramatic world ender you think. Most people will not run vampire. And the ones that do will mostly be burst set ups or aoe set ups. Sorc with out blood for blood is still a super high dps that can stay a safe distance away from melee boss mechanics. You won't need it to stay high up on the dps totem pole.

    Not disagreeing with spirit of your post but your example justification is flat wrong. E.g. re: warden and necro on lower end of mag dps.

    Mag warden was nearly tied with mag dk as top mag dps in harrowstorm (look at liko, skinny cheeks, etc parses - mag warden is basically tied or just barely behind mag dk as #1 mag dps). You might be confusing mag warden to low dps state after it launched.

    Mag necro same thing, at launch and before blastbones fixes, it was low end, but with harrowstorm was upper middle. Magsorc actually had lowest dps (for pve, still S+ tier in pvp)

    On a parse? Duh they were high, but in practical use they were low up until very recently, Magdens spent most of their time on the low end, not just after their launch So no I was not wrong about that. I stopped playing for a little while when Harrowstorm dropped so maybe there is a change, but forgive me for not accepting a dps parse as proof of performance in the game. When i came back Sorcs were still killing it in all the pve content I did with them and I am still not seeing any Warden Mag dps running around outside of pvp and and few cloudrest runs.

    I would like to take my warden mag dps in a few more fights before I dig my heels in on this, but things still seem pretty status quo for them in the actual fights. I am not saying that they did not perform well, they both always preformed well, they just didn't reach the highest numbers. I do wonder if some change was made to the bear that I missed when I looked through some of the patches I missed though, cause I have been seeing a lot more bears recently.

    Also, magcro has always middled, it was on the lower end of middling but it still middled, so even in parses not much has changed, and with the siphon being put back on the gcd those numbers might go down again, I am unsure about that one. I might have been wrong to say magcro was low though, since it was middling, lower middling but middling.

    Look at esologs for actual top tier guild performance, and not sure why you say "duh" re: parses - none of the parses I referenced were using cheese setups but actual rotations as would be done in a trial.

    I also was replying to the current standard - which was the post I replied to. Magwarden used to be low tier, but we weren't talking about historical neglect - both the post I relied to and my reply was specifically about actual current performance.

    As of day ago before this patch, with Harrowstorm, magwarden using real life trial rotation parses was nearly tied with mag DK far ahead of all other mag dps at #1, and mag warden #2 very close behind.

    That is completely false. I spent most of Harrowstorm working on the best possible optimization for Magden PVE DPS and the results were nowhere near those of MagDK. If we look at peak performance, MagDK is about 15% higher than Magden (given the same group and buffs/debuffs). Additionally, both Nightblade and Sorcerer outperformed Warden by a few k. Templar and Necromancer were both very similar to Warden in single target damage, but had much better AoE (and I’d argue that a Necro would be much higher if they could get through a fight without Blastbones and Siphon bugging out).

    Also consider that every class on that list other than Warden and Nightblade brings something useful to the group.

    Just because you can’t perform on Magden as well as others doesn’t invalidate my point. Non cheese, real trial rotation parses from liko’s harrowstorm series shows magden barely behind magdk.

    No comment how things will play out with greymoor, but in context my reply was centered on, mag dk and magden was nearly tied, and ahead of other classes for pve dps enough that they formed their own top tier during harrowstorm.

    Um, I was the top Magden in Harrowstorm :D. You have to scroll pretty far down the list here past all the magDK’s, Stamcros, and a few Nightblades, but eventually you’ll find my Magden at #56 https://www.esologs.com/zone/rankings/12#boss=44&metric=bossdps&partition=4

    Not sure where your information is coming from.

    Congrats, bet a lot of those DK's fall off this patch and wardens climb up the list.
  • Curious_Death
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    PvP: Malacath's Band of Brutality will be used by every class except for Sorcerers since it conflicts with Critical Surge.
    PvE: Blood for Blood will be the main Magicka spammable except for Sorcerers since it doesn't proc Crystal Fragments.

    I don't know if pets benefitting from Bloodthirsty will help enough

    ahahahahahah

    i love players that do not test anything and speak - do not play specific class and speaks... ahahaha nerf to sorc... u can own with magsorc without surge tbh ... magsorc can outperform NB/Warden in selfhealing without critical surge :smiley:

    and i know how tasty crystal frags hits with Malacath's Band of Brutality and proper vamp build :) just add some max mag and spell penetration - enjoy ur kills
  • MartiniDaniels
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    x48rph wrote: »
    Buffing other builds is not a nerf. Just saying.

    A class doesn't exist in a vacuum. If every other class get's a shiny new toy but one can't use it, it's an indirect nerf to that class.

    Or how would you think about if every other class but your main would get, idk, 10k free resources (as overexaggerated example).

    How about healing was nerfed, but shields remained the same. And you know there is class, whose shields are superior to shields of other magicka specs?
    Ah, also ZOS changed how pets work with bloodthirsty trait and crit chance and what a surprise there is one class which has access to numerous pets and ability which buffs this pets?
    And as you can see Liko parses 93k with that new vampire spammable without problems, using only 7 ability buttons:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FCkrpoleBU
    While magicka nightblade parses same 93k using all 10 and more then that, can't even drop health for max efficiency of blood for blood:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqqssc7eqGQ
    And magblades class buff is useless for magicka group, while magsorc has guarunteed slot due to minor prophecy.

    Some nice dps there but in PVP

    ocjW0G5.jpg

    Be Safe

    Magsorc is amazing in PVP and is least impacted by changes to healing, because of best shields + crazy matriarch heal. If somebody doesn't want to play with pets... it's same if somebody doesn't want to play with blastbones, or if warden wants to play without shalks, or templar without jabs (though Kristofer handles it :D )... you can compensate with your own skill, or create effective non-meta build, but you can't blame devs for balance here. Sorc is pet class and ZOS balances it as pet class.
  • Nemesis7884
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    I think it makes littme sense to inteoduce items such as malacath that are then must haves for everyone....sometimes im wondering what zos is thinking in their design...
  • Aleinzzs
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    x48rph wrote: »
    Buffing other builds is not a nerf. Just saying.

    A class doesn't exist in a vacuum. If every other class get's a shiny new toy but one can't use it, it's an indirect nerf to that class.

    Or how would you think about if every other class but your main would get, idk, 10k free resources (as overexaggerated example).

    How about healing was nerfed, but shields remained the same. And you know there is class, whose shields are superior to shields of other magicka specs?
    Ah, also ZOS changed how pets work with bloodthirsty trait and crit chance and what a surprise there is one class which has access to numerous pets and ability which buffs this pets?
    And as you can see Liko parses 93k with that new vampire spammable without problems, using only 7 ability buttons:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FCkrpoleBU
    While magicka nightblade parses same 93k using all 10 and more then that, can't even drop health for max efficiency of blood for blood:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqqssc7eqGQ
    And magblades class buff is useless for magicka group, while magsorc has guarunteed slot due to minor prophecy.

    Some nice dps there but in PVP

    ocjW0G5.jpg

    Be Safe

    Magsorc is amazing in PVP and is least impacted by changes to healing, because of best shields + crazy matriarch heal. If somebody doesn't want to play with pets... it's same if somebody doesn't want to play with blastbones, or if warden wants to play without shalks, or templar without jabs (though Kristofer handles it :D )... you can compensate with your own skill, or create effective non-meta build, but you can't blame devs for balance here. Sorc is pet class and ZOS balances it as pet class.

    Never once needed that heal pet in pvp.... And that's taking up a frontbar and backbar slot. Rapid regen and surge do fine. I'm loving all the keyboard warriors here tho
  • pieratsos
    pieratsos
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    x48rph wrote: »
    Buffing other builds is not a nerf. Just saying.

    A class doesn't exist in a vacuum. If every other class get's a shiny new toy but one can't use it, it's an indirect nerf to that class.

    Or how would you think about if every other class but your main would get, idk, 10k free resources (as overexaggerated example).

    How about healing was nerfed, but shields remained the same. And you know there is class, whose shields are superior to shields of other magicka specs?
    Ah, also ZOS changed how pets work with bloodthirsty trait and crit chance and what a surprise there is one class which has access to numerous pets and ability which buffs this pets?
    And as you can see Liko parses 93k with that new vampire spammable without problems, using only 7 ability buttons:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FCkrpoleBU
    While magicka nightblade parses same 93k using all 10 and more then that, can't even drop health for max efficiency of blood for blood:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqqssc7eqGQ
    And magblades class buff is useless for magicka group, while magsorc has guarunteed slot due to minor prophecy.

    Some nice dps there but in PVP

    ocjW0G5.jpg

    Be Safe

    Magsorc is amazing in PVP and is least impacted by changes to healing, because of best shields + crazy matriarch heal. If somebody doesn't want to play with pets... it's same if somebody doesn't want to play with blastbones, or if warden wants to play without shalks, or templar without jabs (though Kristofer handles it :D )... you can compensate with your own skill, or create effective non-meta build, but you can't blame devs for balance here. Sorc is pet class and ZOS balances it as pet class.

    Bias is strong here. Wtf do burst abilities have to do with pets. The equivalent of shalks or blastbones is frags, not pets. Pet sorc and normal sorc are two different playstyles like other classes have different playstyles. If you are gonna tell people to suck it and it's not the devs fault because playing a normal sorc is somehow off meta *rollseyes* then at least have the decency to stop complaining because class X doesn't have this or that. I mean it's not the devs fault that u are playing off meta. Right?
  • MartiniDaniels
    MartiniDaniels
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    pieratsos wrote: »
    x48rph wrote: »
    Buffing other builds is not a nerf. Just saying.

    A class doesn't exist in a vacuum. If every other class get's a shiny new toy but one can't use it, it's an indirect nerf to that class.

    Or how would you think about if every other class but your main would get, idk, 10k free resources (as overexaggerated example).

    How about healing was nerfed, but shields remained the same. And you know there is class, whose shields are superior to shields of other magicka specs?
    Ah, also ZOS changed how pets work with bloodthirsty trait and crit chance and what a surprise there is one class which has access to numerous pets and ability which buffs this pets?
    And as you can see Liko parses 93k with that new vampire spammable without problems, using only 7 ability buttons:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FCkrpoleBU
    While magicka nightblade parses same 93k using all 10 and more then that, can't even drop health for max efficiency of blood for blood:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqqssc7eqGQ
    And magblades class buff is useless for magicka group, while magsorc has guarunteed slot due to minor prophecy.

    Some nice dps there but in PVP

    ocjW0G5.jpg

    Be Safe

    Magsorc is amazing in PVP and is least impacted by changes to healing, because of best shields + crazy matriarch heal. If somebody doesn't want to play with pets... it's same if somebody doesn't want to play with blastbones, or if warden wants to play without shalks, or templar without jabs (though Kristofer handles it :D )... you can compensate with your own skill, or create effective non-meta build, but you can't blame devs for balance here. Sorc is pet class and ZOS balances it as pet class.

    Bias is strong here. Wtf do burst abilities have to do with pets. The equivalent of shalks or blastbones is frags, not pets. Pet sorc and normal sorc are two different playstyles like other classes have different playstyles. If you are gonna tell people to suck it and it's not the devs fault because playing a normal sorc is somehow off meta *rollseyes* then at least have the decency to stop complaining because class X doesn't have this or that. I mean it's not the devs fault that u are playing off meta. Right?

    I am not saying it is right, I'm saying how devs see it. For example, I played stamDK mostly, and class doesn't receives new features because dizzy med-heavy stun into leap/execute is strong. All class is carried by that "hidden" stun into knockback. Now try to play without leap on stamDK and I won't call it unplayable, but lack of off-GCD burst like PotL or shalks or blastbones is obvious. So you either keep leaping or you will be playing weaker version of warden.
    Same for magsorc. What's the problem with band of brutality? If you want to use crit surge, then use Torc of tonal constance and drop sustain set and convert excess stamina into magicka like no other class can do. What's the problem, where is nerf?

    Ok. My 2nd most played toon is stamplar. Obviously malacath is not an option for crit class. Torc is not an option too, because stamplar don't have effective tools to convert magicka to stamina... not to mention that everybody will continue to run in impen for a long time before they get new builds or if they even bother to take something other then impen. So crit classes (templar and NB) received direct nerf in this update because they can't use malacath band at all AND crit resistance increased across the board. Why I don't see thread "ZOS finally nerfed templar".

    What about races? Why in the hell anybody should play khajiit, when triple recovery is granted like free bonus on amber plasm and eternal vigor and everybody got 20% crit reduction as default? Balance in this patch will be a total mess and magsorc is certainly not the most impacted. Protective jewelry nerfed, monster armor sets nerfed, bloodspawn nerfed.... and let me guess which race still have 4k double resistances balanced in times when resistance was easiest stat to get? If you place khajiit vs nord in current balance this is just LOL. They are not even close, I can't imagine for what khajiit might be good aside from that Ironcannon build.
    Edited by MartiniDaniels on May 28, 2020 11:53AM
  • pieratsos
    pieratsos
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    pieratsos wrote: »
    x48rph wrote: »
    Buffing other builds is not a nerf. Just saying.

    A class doesn't exist in a vacuum. If every other class get's a shiny new toy but one can't use it, it's an indirect nerf to that class.

    Or how would you think about if every other class but your main would get, idk, 10k free resources (as overexaggerated example).

    How about healing was nerfed, but shields remained the same. And you know there is class, whose shields are superior to shields of other magicka specs?
    Ah, also ZOS changed how pets work with bloodthirsty trait and crit chance and what a surprise there is one class which has access to numerous pets and ability which buffs this pets?
    And as you can see Liko parses 93k with that new vampire spammable without problems, using only 7 ability buttons:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FCkrpoleBU
    While magicka nightblade parses same 93k using all 10 and more then that, can't even drop health for max efficiency of blood for blood:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqqssc7eqGQ
    And magblades class buff is useless for magicka group, while magsorc has guarunteed slot due to minor prophecy.

    Some nice dps there but in PVP

    ocjW0G5.jpg

    Be Safe

    Magsorc is amazing in PVP and is least impacted by changes to healing, because of best shields + crazy matriarch heal. If somebody doesn't want to play with pets... it's same if somebody doesn't want to play with blastbones, or if warden wants to play without shalks, or templar without jabs (though Kristofer handles it :D )... you can compensate with your own skill, or create effective non-meta build, but you can't blame devs for balance here. Sorc is pet class and ZOS balances it as pet class.

    Bias is strong here. Wtf do burst abilities have to do with pets. The equivalent of shalks or blastbones is frags, not pets. Pet sorc and normal sorc are two different playstyles like other classes have different playstyles. If you are gonna tell people to suck it and it's not the devs fault because playing a normal sorc is somehow off meta *rollseyes* then at least have the decency to stop complaining because class X doesn't have this or that. I mean it's not the devs fault that u are playing off meta. Right?

    I am not saying it is right, I'm saying how devs see it. For example, I played stamDK mostly, and class doesn't receives new features because dizzy med-heavy stun into leap/execute is strong. All class is carried by that "hidden" stun into knockback. Now try to play without leap on stamDK and I won't call it unplayable, but lack of off-GCD burst like PotL or shalks or blastbones is obvious. So you either keep leaping or you will be playing weaker version of warden.
    Same for magsorc. What's the problem with band of brutality? If you want to use crit surge, then use Torc of tonal constance and drop sustain set and convert excess stamina into magicka like no other class can do. What's the problem, where is nerf?

    Ok. My 2nd most played toon is stamplar. Obviously malacath is not an option for crit class. Torc is not an option too, because stamplar don't have effective tools to convert magicka to stamina... not to mention that everybody will continue to run in impen for a long time before they get new builds or if they even bother to take something other then impen. So crit classes (templar and NB) received direct nerf in this update because they can't use malacath band at all AND crit resistance increased across the board. Why I don't see thread "ZOS finally nerfed templar".

    What about races? Why in the hell anybody should play khajiit, when triple recovery is granted like free bonus on amber plasm and eternal vigor and everybody got 20% crit reduction as default? Balance in this patch will be a total mess and magsorc is certainly not the most impacted. Protective jewelry nerfed, monster armor sets nerfed, bloodspawn nerfed.... and let me guess which race still have 4k double resistances balanced in times when resistance was easiest stat to get? If you place khajiit vs nord in current balance this is just LOL. They are not even close, I can't imagine for what khajiit might be good aside from that Ironcannon build.

    I'm not talking about nerfs or buffs. I'm talking about ur statement that normal sorc is somehow off meta and therefore balance wise it doesnt really matter how it performs since sorc is a pet class and that's what matters when it comes to balance. That's like saying that DK is a tank class and since they make good tanks people shouldnt complain if they are slow as hell and lack burst or execute. They are good tanks so the class is fine.
  • MartiniDaniels
    MartiniDaniels
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    pieratsos wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    x48rph wrote: »
    Buffing other builds is not a nerf. Just saying.

    A class doesn't exist in a vacuum. If every other class get's a shiny new toy but one can't use it, it's an indirect nerf to that class.

    Or how would you think about if every other class but your main would get, idk, 10k free resources (as overexaggerated example).

    How about healing was nerfed, but shields remained the same. And you know there is class, whose shields are superior to shields of other magicka specs?
    Ah, also ZOS changed how pets work with bloodthirsty trait and crit chance and what a surprise there is one class which has access to numerous pets and ability which buffs this pets?
    And as you can see Liko parses 93k with that new vampire spammable without problems, using only 7 ability buttons:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FCkrpoleBU
    While magicka nightblade parses same 93k using all 10 and more then that, can't even drop health for max efficiency of blood for blood:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqqssc7eqGQ
    And magblades class buff is useless for magicka group, while magsorc has guarunteed slot due to minor prophecy.

    Some nice dps there but in PVP

    ocjW0G5.jpg

    Be Safe

    Magsorc is amazing in PVP and is least impacted by changes to healing, because of best shields + crazy matriarch heal. If somebody doesn't want to play with pets... it's same if somebody doesn't want to play with blastbones, or if warden wants to play without shalks, or templar without jabs (though Kristofer handles it :D )... you can compensate with your own skill, or create effective non-meta build, but you can't blame devs for balance here. Sorc is pet class and ZOS balances it as pet class.

    Bias is strong here. Wtf do burst abilities have to do with pets. The equivalent of shalks or blastbones is frags, not pets. Pet sorc and normal sorc are two different playstyles like other classes have different playstyles. If you are gonna tell people to suck it and it's not the devs fault because playing a normal sorc is somehow off meta *rollseyes* then at least have the decency to stop complaining because class X doesn't have this or that. I mean it's not the devs fault that u are playing off meta. Right?

    I am not saying it is right, I'm saying how devs see it. For example, I played stamDK mostly, and class doesn't receives new features because dizzy med-heavy stun into leap/execute is strong. All class is carried by that "hidden" stun into knockback. Now try to play without leap on stamDK and I won't call it unplayable, but lack of off-GCD burst like PotL or shalks or blastbones is obvious. So you either keep leaping or you will be playing weaker version of warden.
    Same for magsorc. What's the problem with band of brutality? If you want to use crit surge, then use Torc of tonal constance and drop sustain set and convert excess stamina into magicka like no other class can do. What's the problem, where is nerf?

    Ok. My 2nd most played toon is stamplar. Obviously malacath is not an option for crit class. Torc is not an option too, because stamplar don't have effective tools to convert magicka to stamina... not to mention that everybody will continue to run in impen for a long time before they get new builds or if they even bother to take something other then impen. So crit classes (templar and NB) received direct nerf in this update because they can't use malacath band at all AND crit resistance increased across the board. Why I don't see thread "ZOS finally nerfed templar".

    What about races? Why in the hell anybody should play khajiit, when triple recovery is granted like free bonus on amber plasm and eternal vigor and everybody got 20% crit reduction as default? Balance in this patch will be a total mess and magsorc is certainly not the most impacted. Protective jewelry nerfed, monster armor sets nerfed, bloodspawn nerfed.... and let me guess which race still have 4k double resistances balanced in times when resistance was easiest stat to get? If you place khajiit vs nord in current balance this is just LOL. They are not even close, I can't imagine for what khajiit might be good aside from that Ironcannon build.

    I'm not talking about nerfs or buffs. I'm talking about ur statement that normal sorc is somehow off meta and therefore balance wise it doesnt really matter how it performs since sorc is a pet class and that's what matters when it comes to balance. That's like saying that DK is a tank class and since they make good tanks people shouldnt complain if they are slow as hell and lack burst or execute. They are good tanks so the class is fine.

    All those balance changes are not random. Aside from marketing-driven part, they are all part of the developer's vision about class in PVP. From all patch notes of last 5 updates, I see this:
    - magDK = leap&whip
    - magsorc = pets&streak
    - magplar = jabs&cleanse
    - magblade = cloak&shade

    So when they were creating mythic items, they thought ok - dk will use malacath, sorc will use torc, templar will use wild hunt and nightblades will be vampires. Not 100%, but something like that. So fact that malacath is denied to crit surge sorc is not some thought out nerf, it is simply was out of devs vision. They decided that torc of tonal constancy will be good option for any sorcerer.
  • x48rph
    x48rph
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    x48rph wrote: »
    Buffing other builds is not a nerf. Just saying.

    A class doesn't exist in a vacuum. If every other class get's a shiny new toy but one can't use it, it's an indirect nerf to that class.

    Or how would you think about if every other class but your main would get, idk, 10k free resources (as overexaggerated example).

    Except that every CLASS got this shiny new toy including sorc. Builds =/= class. You can build a sorc using it if you choose. Just because it fits another build better than the one you choose to use is not a nerf to you, it's a buff to them.
  • Chilly-McFreeze
    Chilly-McFreeze
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    x48rph wrote: »
    x48rph wrote: »
    Buffing other builds is not a nerf. Just saying.

    A class doesn't exist in a vacuum. If every other class get's a shiny new toy but one can't use it, it's an indirect nerf to that class.

    Or how would you think about if every other class but your main would get, idk, 10k free resources (as overexaggerated example).

    Except that every CLASS got this shiny new toy including sorc. Builds =/= class. You can build a sorc using it if you choose. Just because it fits another build better than the one you choose to use is not a nerf to you, it's a buff to them.

    Some classes inherently lean towards crits. Like having crit chance and crit dmg modifiers, garantueed crits on bread-and-butter skills or having their go-to class heal depend on crits. Those classes have a higher opportunity costs than those who don't lean towards crits.
    Sure, you can use it on a NB or a stamsorc, but those classes loose out far more than others.

    And funnily enough some (!) of those classes with higher opportunity costs were already out-performed by some classes with lower costs. The performance slope in comparison just gets steep. That's what is called an indirect nerf/buff. Can you comprehend that?
    Edited by Chilly-McFreeze on May 28, 2020 1:00PM
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