Linus04 wrote: »

Hi guys,

here's some ideas about Warden, both stam and mag, that would make them more fun and interesting to play IMHO...

First, more frost damage abilities, like frost bolt from Morrowind cinematic:

Move Arctic Wind into first row in Winters Embrace skill line and rework it into single target ranged spammable, something like Ice Spike from Skyrim. Magicka morph frost damage with X% more damage to low health targets, stamina morph physical damage with stacking bleed.

Then, stun ability:

Rework Dive into ranged stun with both magicka and stamina morph. Increace Advanced Species bonus back to 3% to compensate loosing Animal Companion spammable on bar in PVE or make it work with all class abilities.

Last, Bear:

Make Bear special ability AoE stomp that deal AoE damage and apply minor maim for X seconds to all ememies hit.

I think this would help warden with class fantasy and make them more enjoyable to play.

Ideas?

Edit: spelling

I don't know about this. Warden has a ton of raw damage buffs to bandaid the class because it wasn't designed very well. And i don't know about changing the structure of the class skills in how they're set up. I think arctic blast and dive should stay as a stun and spammable respectively. But that they should recieve buffs and reworks to fix their respective issues.

See my doc for how I'd change everything on the class.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fWoOX0S4yrR_KFZcjBAvHvR2K6T__6LrIGiaERV8NQA/edit?usp=sharing

And what percentage is Hardcore end game players 5% of the population? Warden is probably the best class for casual players for running around playing the game outside of end game maybe that's what they were designed for and this same conversation seems to happen with every class at some point

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

I don't know about this. Warden has a ton of raw damage buffs to bandaid the class because it wasn't designed very well. And i don't know about changing the structure of the class skills in how they're set up. I think arctic blast and dive should stay as a stun and spammable respectively. But that they should recieve buffs and reworks to fix their respective issues.

See my doc for how I'd change everything on the class.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fWoOX0S4yrR_KFZcjBAvHvR2K6T__6LrIGiaERV8NQA/edit?usp=sharing

You've got some really nice ideas here, i'd like to see them in game. Making magicka spells frost oriented and stamina spells bleeds oriented could very well define identity for both magicka and stamina wardens. Animal Companion magicka spells be visualy more frost would be amazing, but it could be too much work for dev to change visuals for so many spells.

In new dungeon, Icereach, is NPC called Frost Atronach Bear, which would be nice skin for magicka morph of Bear. For stamina, something like Wild Hunt Bear mount would be cool.

I never had problem with warden gameplay, almost every class has similiar design, just applying dots and then spammable ability + occasionally use some special ability like Crystal Fragments, Power of the Light or Deep Fissure...

xbobx15 wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

xbobx15 wrote: »

And what percentage is Hardcore end game players 5% of the population? Warden is probably the best class for casual players for running around playing the game outside of end game maybe that's what they were designed for and this same conversation seems to happen with every class at some point

This is the worst designed class in the game right now. That's why this is happening.

it really isnt. Imo its the best. almost every buff and debuff is in their kit. They do not have to go outside of their skills to get them. to me that is well designed.

how is it badly designed? because it doesnt give great numbers on a dummy that stands still and doesnt attack back?

It's badly designed because it suppliments basic things that other classes have for raw damage buffs and named buffs

It lacks: An offensive stun, as many damage skills as other classes, it has a class spammable that is contradictory to it's own playstyle, its skills don't synergise with eachother to make something resembling a burst combo, Most of its damage morphs either don't make any sense or are boring and it only has one unique damage skill in scorch. It's mobility skill is only used a majority of the time because it gives a raw damage buff while slotted instead of being wanted for the active movement which really lacks compared to similar skills. Need i go on?

Drachdhar wrote: »

xbobx15 wrote: »

And what percentage is Hardcore end game players 5% of the population? Warden is probably the best class for casual players for running around playing the game outside of end game maybe that's what they were designed for and this same conversation seems to happen with every class at some point

Templar is best class for casual play, and alot of other play. Templar is incredibly powerful and easy to play compared to just about every other class in ESO.

Warden could use some buffs, admittedly. Or rather become "something" else. They do have alot of good stuff going for them though IMO. They could use some work as I've said. As could many other classes.

It needs identity work more than any other magicka class i would say.

thadjarvis wrote: »

@ESO_Nightingale

I don't disagree with all of your changes, but in your post above you seem to really make magden seem like it's a terrible experience to play. I don't agree because I play it and wouldn't otherwise. I feel as though I need to defend magden so others aren't discouraged from trying the class out. I'm just perplexed that you play magden if you seem to dislike almost every skill.


"An offensive stun": warden's are designed for group play from the ground up; they can rely on allies for stun if the two in class aren't suitable for choosen playstyle. I'd like them to get rid of the bear stun in fact. Solo PvP can be annoying if you don't get down cliff racer stun but imo all classes should be iffy in some area when it comes to that content. There are other classes (most stam and some mag) that are built for solo play-style of pressure > (unblock-able, unbridgeable, instant) stun > execute. If that's the desired play-style as it is for most PvPers, those classes are available to play.

missed a big one: negative execute This is magden's PvE downside like stun is in PvP; most classes are weak in some aspect and strong in others such as AOE.

"As many damage skills as other classes": Magden does have four which is less than some, but sorc only has 3+pets

"It has a class spammable that is contradictory to it's own playstyle"
It's a decent option among the field of spamables available to Magden

• CR beats everything for pure ST DPS
• FP can be used for cleave
• CS/FP can be used for no travel time PvP spam
• EW can be used for certain PvP combo's or frost fantasy
• CR can be used for stun combo.

"Its skills don't synergise"
Fissure, Fetcher and Winters (Monday) all increase the damage the allies and/or magden does
Cliff Racer can be used in PvP with Fissure and medium attack combo

"Most of its damage morphs either don't make any sense or are boring"

• Fissure is great as noted
• Fetcher is meh but it's very powerful solo or grouped (few if any of the ST dot's in ESO are interesting...we just want them to damage)
• Racer has stun utility and helps stam DPS allies but yes kinda meh (just swap it out like all other mag's much of the time if it doesn't fit style/content); it is again the highest ST skill to slot for magden DPS even at melee range
• Winters is awesome: maybe the most powerful AOE damage skill in practice, AOE maim, will now buff all magden damage, and procs frost sets.

"It's mobility skill is only used a majority of the time because it gives a raw damage buff while slotted instead of being wanted for the active movement which really lacks compared to similar skills"
Many want to minimize the number of GCD's used on non-killing skills. It's used to get around mechanics or in PvP for close encounter mobility or to get an objective. Warden's had an old pain point of managing too many non-combat skills in the past. It's nice being able to focus on role more.

It may seem like i hate the class. I don't, and in fact, im actually starting a khajiit magden next patch not so much for viability but more of a questing character. i actually like it more than other classes because of some of the skills and i love what it's potential could be. Northern Storm is my favorite ultimate. And deep fissure feels pretty impactful as a burst skill, it's frost visuals really keep me here. But i definitely have a lot to complain about, and that's what i do.

In reguards to an an execute, if enough skills can pick up the slack, it doesn't need an execute, see Magdk. But it's certainly very helpful to have. If anything i think that we only need a small execute to pair with bear. Like the one I put on the fetcher infection suggestion which will make it a ton more consistent.

We might be a group oriented class. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't have an effective offensive class stun skill to use in solo pvp, we are now limited to flame clench which just feels awful to use when we knock an enemy out of our deep fissure range. Right now, the class stun is too group orientated and sacrifices the solo experience for an unreliable short radius and duration with a heal. Off balance is too hard to achieve because cliff racer has awful design and because has just been nerfed badly in reguards to uptime

What i mean by combo is a big burst of damage within the same gcd. As of right now the combo that you could try to achieve with dive and scorch is too wonky to do that effectively. And the really hard to do block cancelling the combo into 1 gcd no longer works as of next patch. The skills don't effectively work with eachother in combo anymore. As I'm sure you know, Dive and shalks used to have a good combo with force pulse in summerset. But that was deleted when the speed was increased. When it comes to bird of prey i feel that we are sacrificing a good movement skill for the sake of having that damage boost. Because it's so valuble we are limited in options on our front bar. After recieving more buffs we need to remove the minor berserk from that skill and make it focus on movement. That way, people will have a free slot that they can use for a better movement effect on bird of prey, or another damage skill. I mean, compared to race against time, the major expedition effect is subpar. I know people that run both bird of prey and race against time because race is just way better as a movement skill.

thadjarvis wrote: »

Yea i hear ya. Just had to defend magden for a bit. On your new thoughts:

Execute: there's a stupid simple solution that doesn't create complexity...just make bloodthirsty apply to bear. Doesn't give us an execute; just removes the negative. Would be on par with DK. It's not really a change, just a correction so that the BT tooltips actually does what it says.

What's wrong with Frost Clench? I've used that to nail people with fissure's when frost magdening for fun in PvP. Nice thing about it is that immobilize is on different cooldown than your allys' stuns so you can train them together. Yes that the CR stun got nerfed, but that's the same for all 2h stam builds (there's a lot of those).

As an MMO-RPG, I just don't feel Solo PvP play should ever be a much of a consideration. Group play PvP/PvE and TES legacy solo PvE make sense. However, now that they made BG's focused on solo play maybe they'll do what many ask for: giving all classes every essential tool (making them non-reliant on team and all the same). I sure hope not.

I get the combo with stun thing. And I know that's pretty much the mainstay PvP style. NB, Sorc, Templar all have great one's and players choose them for it. The others can have other unique things. I've play in BG's with a group (on magden and other classes). Usually two of us get kills but aren't focused on that entirely. The other two certainly are and it works fine. A magden with say a 2h ST focused stam is a real powerful pair.

I respect your opinion but don't agree on it when you talk about solo. I think it's important to have a compelling solo playstyle as you don't always have people to play with. And some people such as myself want to feel like they are the sole reason for their power, getting kills and being self reliant, with warden it's possible to do that but it's harder without a proper combo and stun. Frost clench has the limitations where the target is only immobilized. They can still activate skills to save themselves, and the frost staff itself is more defense focused than the other 2 staves, making your burst combos less powerful. I think it's important that every class has the power to feel comfortable in solo with a reliable offensive stun and ability to run some different builds. I feel that magden and magcro are very limited in that factor right now. And need help.

Runefang wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

thadjarvis wrote: »

Yea i hear ya. Just had to defend magden for a bit. On your new thoughts:

Execute: there's a stupid simple solution that doesn't create complexity...just make bloodthirsty apply to bear. Doesn't give us an execute; just removes the negative. Would be on par with DK. It's not really a change, just a correction so that the BT tooltips actually does what it says.

What's wrong with Frost Clench? I've used that to nail people with fissure's when frost magdening for fun in PvP. Nice thing about it is that immobilize is on different cooldown than your allys' stuns so you can train them together. Yes that the CR stun got nerfed, but that's the same for all 2h stam builds (there's a lot of those).

As an MMO-RPG, I just don't feel Solo PvP play should ever be a much of a consideration. Group play PvP/PvE and TES legacy solo PvE make sense. However, now that they made BG's focused on solo play maybe they'll do what many ask for: giving all classes every essential tool (making them non-reliant on team and all the same). I sure hope not.

I get the combo with stun thing. And I know that's pretty much the mainstay PvP style. NB, Sorc, Templar all have great one's and players choose them for it. The others can have other unique things. I've play in BG's with a group (on magden and other classes). Usually two of us get kills but aren't focused on that entirely. The other two certainly are and it works fine. A magden with say a 2h ST focused stam is a real powerful pair.

I respect your opinion but don't agree on it when you talk about solo. I think it's important to have a compelling solo playstyle as you don't always have people to play with. And some people such as myself want to feel like they are the sole reason for their power, getting kills and being self reliant, with warden it's possible to do that but it's harder without a proper combo and stun. Frost clench has the limitations where the target is only immobilized. They can still activate skills to save themselves, and the frost staff itself is more defense focused than the other 2 staves, making your burst combos less powerful. I think it's important that every class has the power to feel comfortable in solo with a reliable offensive stun and ability to run some different builds. I feel that magden and magcro are very limited in that factor right now. And need help.

I think that’s why the new monster set is coming out, to provide a stun. It’ll be especially good on Magdens.

Personally I’d like see a few minor changes for interest. Change the pointless eternal guardian morph so that it automatically chills enemies when activating the guardians wrath skill.

Change Dive - the range restriction is a bad because in real combat enemies are close 90% of the time. In group PvE everybody stacks whenever possible, in solo PvE all melee enemies close with you and in PvP it’s dodged most of the time anyway. I’d like to see a change such that after 2 critical hits enemies take x% additional damage from magic damage or bleed damage for x seconds depending on morph.

Two simple changes that increase synergies across the class skills, creates interesting demand in the PvE rotation beyond just fissure every 3 seconds and won’t do anything to PvP power. If it overturnes PvE damage then a few small damage nerfs would fix that.

That set is quite unreliable from my experience. It's not the solution we need. It's an interesting set idea but it's ultimately a gimic. We need a good class offensive stun. Not an unreliable monster set.

One more thought is the original design of the classes:

Glass cannons: solo combo killers
NB: ST & gank/bomb, Melee, using stealth for defense
Sorc: ST/AOE, Ranged using high mobility & shields for defense

Stand your ground
DK: DoT, CC, and tankiness for defense
Templar: mixed damage, soft/hard CC, and healing/purging for defense

AOE and Group Utility: more allies or enemies killing and dying the better (in PvE or PvP)
Warden: AOE damage, AOE Debuffs/Buffs, and healing/projectile immunity for defense; more defensive group utility
Necro: AOE damage, AOE Debuffs, and tankiness for defense; more offensive group utility

Ie I don’t think warden is poorly designed at all. Thinking of it as a solo burst stun combo killer is the error imo. They had fissure stun but ZoS decided to have certain classes specialize in instant stunning long ago replacing it with AOE penetration.

Imo Templar is a little too jack of all trades atm, but that probably will pass. Though I don’t think the answer is to turn every class into Templar.

@Ariades_swe Huh, it might not have been clear, but all of the past few posts were regarding strictly PvP

@Ariades_swe

Though indeed you are spot on, that plus housing and questing are the profit centers of a multi-billion dollar corporation.