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Calculations and Server Lag, with Mathematical comparisons of Mechanics (Pvp Oriented)

MincVinyl
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The way I look at it, the best bet to fix server lag is to generally reduce calculations on the server. Which can be implemented in a variety of mechanical changes to the game. Generally zerging is the root cause of server lag, where anything that is used by zergs will drastically raise server calculations. Most of the lag/ping you see is due to the servers unless you are from extremely long distances. As a reference, for me in the North east corner of the US connecting to the NA server in Texas I sit around 110ms ping, where my connection to Texas sits around 11ms.

gcd = global cooldown (1 ability per ~second)
dot = damage over time
hot = healing over time
aoe = area of effect
proc = when a condition is met, an effect will happen

For a basic understanding of how calculations affect server load causing lag Try to recognize the trends that happen as population increases

Calculations for single targets
1v1 each uses a single target for their gcd = 1 player * 1 player hit * 2 teams = 2 calculations
10 man v 10 man each uses a single target for their gcd = 10players*1player hit*2 teams = 20 calculations
20 man v 20 man each uses a single target for their gcd = 20players*1player hit*2 teams = 40 calculations
30 man v 30 man each uses a single target for their gcd = 30players*1player hit*2 teams = 60 calculations

Calculations for a 10 tick dot
1v1 each uses a 10 tick dot for their gcd = 1 player * 10 ticks * 2 = 20 calculations
10 man v 10 man each uses a dot for their gcd = 10players*10 ticks*2 = 200 calculations
20 man v 20 man each uses a dot for their gcd = 20players*10 ticks*2 = 400 calculations
30 man v 30 man each uses a dot for their gcd = 30players*10 ticks*2 = 600 calculations

Calculations for aoes
1v1 each uses an aoe/single target for their gcd = 1 player * 1 player hit * 2 teams = 2 calculations
10 man v 10 man each uses an aoe for their gcd = 10players*10players hit*2 teams = 200 calculations
20 man v 20 man each uses an aoe for their gcd = 20players*20players hit*2 teams = 800 calculations
30 man v 30 man each uses an aoe for their gcd = 30players*30players hit*2 teams = 1800 calculations

combination of aoe and dots in one (think seige, caltrops, destro ult, wall of elements, etc)
1v1 each uses a 10 tick dot aoe for their gcd = 1 player * 1 player*10 ticks * 2 = 20 calculations
10 man v 10 man each uses a 10tick aoe dot for their gcd = 10players*10players*10 ticks*2 = 2000 calculations
20 man v 20 man each uses a 10tick aoe dot for their gcd = 20players*20players*10 ticks*2 = 8000 calculations
30 man v 30 man each uses a 10tick aoe dot for their gcd = 30players*30players*10 ticks*2 = 18000 calculations
Where Procs come in
Where things get worse is when procs get introduced on top of this. For instance, when the meta shifts towards proc sets. Especially when those procs end up doing an aoe or dot which hit other players. Imagine taking #calculations + (proc chance*number of chances * proc effect)

for a worse case scenario a 30v30 aoe dot from before, but everyone had single 10tick aoe dot proc 10% chance set

30players*30players*10 ticks*2 = 18000 calculations
==> 18000 +0.1chance*10chances*(30players*30players*10 ticks*2) = 36000 possible calculations from each player just pressing one button each.
Where time plays in
Now to further put it into perspective, all of the above is just summing up a single round of gcds. It may look like maybe aoes are the issue and maybe they should be capped (zos tried before), but the underlying issue is when calculations can all overlay at once. so lets look at comparing a round of 30v30 aoe vs 30v30 dots over 5 gcds.

Dot
600,.,.,.1200,.,.,.1800,.,.,.2400,.,.,.3000 = 3000 Calculations across 5 gcds
Aoe
1800,.,.,.1800,.,.,.1800,.,.,.1800,.,.,.1800 = 9000 Calculations across 5 gcds
Aoe Dot
18k,.,.,.36k,.,.,.54k,.,.,.72k,.,.,.90k = 90,000 calculations applied across 5 gcds
(notice the ramp up effect, the more ticks and duration an ability has, the greater the ramp up effect)
What is funny is how lag pushes players to cause more lag. For instance say over the 5 gcds you can only seem to get 1 ability off, well then find what does the most damage in that time. I'm sure you will find that the longest duration aoe dot will most likely do the most dps reliably ....which in turn furthers the lag.

Here are the summed up inherent issues with how over time effects and aoes affect the server. I also provided solutions talked about over the years in multiple forum threads. To make it easier to discuss certain solutions I have numbered them. There are other issues with the servers also talked about in threads before like the bot checker affecting the server. Keep in mind that just about any of these could be implemented through battle spirit so pve is not affected.

dot/hot issue: Calculations will stack, causing the load on the server to essentially ramp up in calculations and later remain at this ramped up state once in rotation. This will cause a wave like feeling, where the server is fine> dot rotation> lag> durations die down>lag dies down> reapply rotation> lag>>>>repeat

Direct Mechanical Solutions to Reduce Calculations from dots
1-Make over time effects no longer stack (reduces the ramping effect, only hurts mindless zerg spammers, promotes build diversity, prevents future dot proc metas like sloads)
2-Cap how many over time effects can be applied on a target (prevents Xv1 suffocation by numbers, won't have the issue of two players running the same ability, prevents zergs from stacking hots to limit the ramp effect)
3-Make over time effects snapshot the attacker's/healer's stats to avoid recalculating the base value each tick (stops recalculations of the base values)
4-Less ticks, balance for equal damage (will just result in less calculations, will feel more like how seige ticks on you)

Indirect Solutions to dots
5-Nerfing damage so dots are used as a tool instead of a lifestyle (Will just cause community uproar, but would eventually lead to less calculations, don't bother discussing)
6- Try to remove any unnecessary dots tacked on to abilities(pretty trivial, but less dots = less calculations)

aoe issue: Can instantly cause a "burst" of calculations. This would cause a spike feeling, where the server appears to freeze for one instant (seen when a good bomb goes off)

Direct Mechanical Solutions to Reduce Calculations to aoe
7-Aoe caps(tried before, but made zergs practically not wipe-able, drastically hurt solo/smallman potential)
8-Place aoe caps on non ultimate abilities (would promote group coordination over mindless uncounterable spam, Reduces how much smallman would lose with blanket aoe caps)
9-Make Aoes scale with players initially hit, like how proxy det works but with a smaller modifier, for example [+5% per player hit] (over time leads to zergs spreading out, less aoe calculations)
10- Make Heals apply to only group members when in a large group (could talk about also reducing the max group size to 12)

Indirect Solutions to aoe
11-Nerfing Aoe damage (again would cause uproar and drastically hurt solo/smallman, but eventually leads to less builds utilizing only aoe, don't bother discussing)
12- Remove unnecessary aoe (again trivial, less aoe = less calculations)
Edited by MincVinyl on February 19, 2020 4:55AM
  • YandereGirlfriend
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    I strongly agree with your ideas 1-4: allowing only one instance of a given DoT to operate on a target at once, capping total number of Dots allowed on a target, snapshot-ing damage values at cast time, and reducing the number of ticks. Also strongly agree that heals and positive effects should only apply to your own group members

    It's also definitely positive that ZOS seems to be removing some of the secondary set proc conditions (such as Scathing Mage no longer requiring a Critical Hit) which increases usability and also reduces calculations.

    The only thing that I strongly disagree with is reducing DoT damage even further.

    That said, I would totally support taking a giant nerf bat to HoTs since literally everyone is running one or two at a time in PvP and it contributes to the stale tank meta. Gameplay-wise it is also inherently less skillful to spam a HoT (especially in a zerg) than it is to a burst heal.
  • MincVinyl
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    I strongly agree with your ideas 1-4: allowing only one instance of a given DoT to operate on a target at once, capping total number of Dots allowed on a target, snapshot-ing damage values at cast time, and reducing the number of ticks. Also strongly agree that heals and positive effects should only apply to your own group members

    It's also definitely positive that ZOS seems to be removing some of the secondary set proc conditions (such as Scathing Mage no longer requiring a Critical Hit) which increases usability and also reduces calculations.

    The only thing that I strongly disagree with is reducing DoT damage even further.

    That said, I would totally support taking a giant nerf bat to HoTs since literally everyone is running one or two at a time in PvP and it contributes to the stale tank meta. Gameplay-wise it is also inherently less skillful to spam a HoT (especially in a zerg) than it is to a burst heal.

    Im not advocating to lower the aoe/dot standard, I wanted to include those and cross them out just so people didn't bring them up and just turn it into a nerf thread. I think in general zos has done themselves in by trying to make abilities too crazy. From a game balance stance, I just see it as exponentially harder for zos to figure out what should be buffed/nerfed.
    For instance look what they are doing to dizzy. It used to be a simple activate the ability and do damage with a knockup perfectly syncd to the animation. Now it feels like it hardly impacts the targets unless you mindlessly spam it. It requires little skill or attention to land. With offbalance tacked on to it, the stun is now not synced to an animation so it doesn't look fluid at all, hurting counterplay and favoring spammers. Zos is also tacking on another cooldown buff and a snare which just adds more calculations. Just remember, nobody complained about the old dizzy before elsweyr.

    Same thing goes for onslaught. Nobody complained before elsweyr. It was a unique ult that served its own unique build purpose. Now for some reason it does an aoe without any change in animation. It is so close to the purpose that dawnbreaker serves, that I swap between the two depending if I want an undodgeable stun or perfect pen aoe executes through reverse slice. Also, instead of being unique it is just a copy of corrosive buff, with the aoe damage of dawnbreaker and the single target burst of old incap.

    Why do meatbag catapults need a dot, In no way do i see a need for one seige to rule them all. Not only does the meatbag debuff stack with major/minor defile, but it just has a low damage aoe dot tacked on. As I've shown above, it just adds to the load on the server. What is worse is that with how seige is now, these massive stalemates happen with pug seiges that just prolong the lag across the server without any break.
    Edited by MincVinyl on February 19, 2020 1:03PM
  • Joy_Division
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    I'm just a historian, so I can;t claim to have the sort of specialized knowledge when it comes to computers and networking. But am I trained to sniff out BS by people trying to sell a party line.

    ZOS would have me to believe that it is calculations that are ruining the servers. That in the span of one weekend in the Summer of 2014, millions of people all of a sudden acquired a bunch of passives that plunged Cyrodiil's performance into the toilet at the exact same time their lighting patch was released and anti-bot/hack measures went from our clients to their servers. They have enacted changes such the millions of calculations have been removed, whether that's by nerfing/standardizing ticks, removing deer, reducing the pop caps by probably 90%, and even for two weeks removed CP. And none of it worked. At all. At this point, I do not take their explanations seriously.

    The alternative explanation I have gathered from hearsay not from ZOS amounts to basically we had an inexperienced company trying to make an MMO that did not seek advice from veterans in the industry when it came to stuff like anti-botting and what got executed on the clients and servers and tried to do it all on their own. We were given an unstable foundation that had our clients doing way too much of the load, and the infamous lighting patch dumped a huge amount of legwork serverside, which the foundation simply could not handle. We're basically stuck with it because it's would be a herculean (and expensive) effort to rebuild from the ground up.

    One of these hypotheses fits the 6 years of experience we have better and - surprise! - it's not the one from people trying to make money off of the game.

    ***

    That aside, let's live in fairly-land and assume that, yes, if we tear out a few pages from the 1215 page novel War and Peace, then all of a sudden my abilities will fire off and I can CC break. The two main issues I have with the list in the OP is that:
    1. They seek to remove calculations by having the server do calculations
    2. They would make the game frustrating such that I'd rather throw my computer out the window than play it, even if there was no lag.

    If you are going to make it so over-time effect does not stack, doesn't the server have to have a line of code basically checking to see if the target has said over-time effect? You're adding a calculation just to remove one. Also, can we please stop denigrating how other people play the game? If I'm in a battleground, I'm not Zerging, but if a tank build is on an objective, you're now asking me to try and kill said tank when only one of our DoTs will actually tick on her (and you just know it will be the 115 CP PuG with no weapon damage). Hard Pass.

    Or if I have an amazing build and I go to use my heal over time, I will lose my resources and it won't have any effect whatsoever on me because some 115 CP PuG is spamming rapid regeneration. Hard Pass. I don;t care, I'd rather play in lag.

    If the server takes a snapshot of our current stats, well that just ruined abilities like Poison Injection, half the armor sets in the game, anything that has the line "when critically striking...", healing passives based on target health, well, you're basically going to have to redo the entire game so why not just rip the foundation that's made of sand out instead?

    In short, yes, every suggestion would cause an uproar because the game has been designed and balanced with all of this stuff in mind.

    Edited by Joy_Division on February 19, 2020 4:26PM
  • YandereGirlfriend
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    If the server takes a snapshot of our current stats, well that just ruined abilities like Poison Injection, half the armor sets in the game, anything that has the line "when critically striking...", healing passives based on target health, well, you're basically going to have to redo the entire game so why not just rip the foundation that's made of sand out instead?

    Snapshot refers to whether or not the inputs of your damage (Spell/Weapon Damage, Penetration, Crit Stats, etc.) are dynamic over the course of a DoT or are they captured at cast-time and used for the DoT's entire duration.

    It does not refer to single-target DoTs like Poison Arrow but only applies to AoE DoTs such as Endless Hail or Wall of Elements (and IIRC HoTs).

    AoE DoTs are especially onerous because you have a time dimension, an area dimension, and have to check the caster's stats at every tick of damage and then apply that to all the enemies in the DoT.

    Knowing that, it's easy to see why zergs spamming AoE DoTs and HoTs are degrading to performance. As are max siege keep fights with siege machines applying their own AoE DoTs and lingering DoTs to players.
  • Reverb
    Reverb
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    I'm just a historian, so I can;t claim to have the sort of specialized knowledge when it comes to computers and networking. But am I trained to sniff out BS by people trying to sell a party line.

    ZOS would have me to believe that it is calculations that are ruining the servers. That in the span of one weekend in the Summer of 2014, millions of people all of a sudden acquired a bunch of passives that plunged Cyrodiil's performance into the toilet at the exact same time their lighting patch was released and anti-bot/hack measures went from our clients to their servers. They have enacted changes such the millions of calculations have been removed, whether that's by nerfing/standardizing ticks, removing deer, reducing the pop caps by probably 90%, and even for two weeks removed CP. And none of it worked. At all. At this point, I do not take their explanations seriously.

    The alternative explanation I have gathered from hearsay not from ZOS amounts to basically we had an inexperienced company trying to make an MMO that did not seek advice from veterans in the industry when it came to stuff like anti-botting and what got executed on the clients and servers and tried to do it all on their own. We were given an unstable foundation that had our clients doing way too much of the load, and the infamous lighting patch dumped a huge amount of legwork serverside, which the foundation simply could not handle. We're basically stuck with it because it's would be a herculean (and expensive) effort to rebuild from the ground up.

    One of these hypotheses fits the 6 years of experience we have better and - surprise! - it's not the one from people trying to make money off of the game.

    ***

    That aside, let's live in fairly-land and assume that, yes, if we tear out a few pages from the 1215 page novel War and Peace, then all of a sudden my abilities will fire off and I can CC break. The two main issues I have with the list in the OP is that:
    1. They seek to remove calculations by having the server do calculations
    2. They would make the game frustrating such that I'd rather throw my computer out the window than play it, even if there was no lag.

    If you are going to make it so over-time effect does not stack, doesn't the server have to have a line of code basically checking to see if the target has said over-time effect? You're adding a calculation just to remove one. Also, can we please stop denigrating how other people play the game? If I'm in a battleground, I'm not Zerging, but if a tank build is on an objective, you're now asking me to try and kill said tank when only one of our DoTs will actually tick on her (and you just know it will be the 115 CP PuG with no weapon damage). Hard Pass.

    Or if I have an amazing build and I go to use my heal over time, I will lose my resources and it won't have any effect whatsoever on me because some 115 CP PuG is spamming rapid regeneration. Hard Pass. I don;t care, I'd rather play in lag.

    If the server takes a snapshot of our current stats, well that just ruined abilities like Poison Injection, half the armor sets in the game, anything that has the line "when critically striking...", healing passives based on target health, well, you're basically going to have to redo the entire game so why not just rip the foundation that's made of sand out instead?

    In short, yes, every suggestion would cause an uproar because the game has been designed and balanced with all of this stuff in mind.

    People who weren’t here the first months really have no understanding of just how smooth eso pvp used to be. HUGE battles with several hundred players, more people and siege than we’ve had in one place at any time since. Multiple full campaigns with much higher pop caps. And absolutely no lag. None.

    And literally overnight it became a nearly unplayable mess. Lag, ping spikes, frame rate drops, skill unresponsiveness, disconnects, all started happening on the same day, across the board, and never stopped.

    And to address some of the counter arguments, we had plenty of VR10 (and later VR12) characters, most of our skills were fully leveled and morphed, we were almost all wearing gear sets.

    There were no monster sets then, and very few sets with proc conditions, but those didn’t factor in. There was an update when a switch was flipped and lag was introduced.


    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/113161/patch-notes-v1-2-3
    Edited by Reverb on February 20, 2020 12:46AM
    Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you. ~Friedrich Nietzsche
  • MincVinyl
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    If you are going to make it so over-time effect does not stack, doesn't the server have to have a line of code basically checking to see if the target has said over-time effect? You're adding a calculation just to remove one. Also, can we please stop denigrating how other people play the game? If I'm in a battleground, I'm not Zerging, but if a tank build is on an objective, you're now asking me to try and kill said tank when only one of our DoTs will actually tick on her (and you just know it will be the 115 CP PuG with no weapon damage). Hard Pass.

    Or if I have an amazing build and I go to use my heal over time, I will lose my resources and it won't have any effect whatsoever on me because some 115 CP PuG is spamming rapid regeneration. Hard Pass. I don;t care, I'd rather play in lag.

    If the server takes a snapshot of our current stats, well that just ruined abilities like Poison Injection, half the armor sets in the game, anything that has the line "when critically striking...", healing passives based on target health, well, you're basically going to have to redo the entire game so why not just rip the foundation that's made of sand out instead?

    In short, yes, every suggestion would cause an uproar because the game has been designed and balanced with all of this stuff in mind.

    For the first comment about making a check, it would be one simple check calculation which could stop up to hundreds possibly thousands of other calculations from going through the server. I would say that would help reduce overall calculations.

    Also the game had over time effects not stack before, I cant exactly remember the patch, but it forced build diversity in the game where you couldn't just run the bis morphs that are on every single build. This made zergs less powerful and allowed for small man groups to compete simply by coordinating to not overlap buffs. People back then who built like how everyone does now, would lose out on their own healing to gain group healing. As it stands now instead of having only one of the most powerful hots in the game, people can have multiple which leads to these metas that just bounce back and forth. In a sense this change would only punish larger groups, small man groups would just coordinate on morphs like they used to do.

    If you are worried about pug heals overriding your own, that could simply be fixed by changing healing mechanisms. Like I said before, heals could be restricted to group members. Or the strongest dot/hot remains. Or Self heals have a higher priority.
    As for all of the history of the server, considering zos has had ample time to revert alot of those changes, I doubt we will see any of them reverted back to those days. I just wanted to point out how the combat aspect of serverside calculations is affecting lag. From what I remember back then the lighting changes only affected the fps of players, where the anticheat and other background changes they introduced is what destroyed the server. Also dont forget that sets/cp/skills were more simple back then. No matter how you build now, there will be procs in just about every aspect of your build.

    We wont really be able to tell what aspect (anticheat/skills/sets/cp/etc) is causing more issues with the server unless we did a large scale test on live. Ideally zos would find a way to simulate it, but i doubt it. We would need massive guild groups on each faction all get in one area to run different tests. Like seeing if just having players stand still in one area is just causing lag. Or how much slotting aoe/dots causes lag. Or if slotting proc sets vs flat stat sets causes lag, and so on. I doubt zos would be able to host this or force players to run certain things one night a week. Maybe if streamers and fans got together to run large groups on each faction we could get some tests done.
    Edited by MincVinyl on February 20, 2020 3:20PM
  • ecru
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    You're really missing the overall problem behind how everything is calculated. The issue isn't how many things that are going on at one time, but how the effect of everything is calculated. Unlike in almost every other MMORPG in existence, ESO recalculates the damage of any time based abilities (hots, dots, buffs/debuffs) continuously over their duration, rather than doing one calculation when the ability is casted based on the caster's stats and the person it's being casted on at the time.

    For example, in any other game, if you use a self buff that increases your base damage stat after you cast a dot, it does not increase the damage of subsequent ticks of that dot. Those games do not take into consideration your (or your opponent's) stats after that point, the damage is "set" when you cast it, and no further calculations take place. In ESO if you lose or gain any kind of weapon damage or spell damage buff while a dot is ticking, the server recalculates the next tick of the dot based on that stat change. This also goes for your opponents with the dot ticking on them. A change in their damage reduction or resists will recalculate the damage of that dot. You can see how this system's retroactive calculations can lead to a much higher server load than a system that does not retroactively recalculate all damage and heals on everything.

    This is the overall cause of the lag in Cyrodiil. It isn't that there are too many players or too many abilities being cast, but the way that everything interacts. The way that the entire combat system interacts would have to be completely overhauled for this to be fixed, and that won't happen, so we're probably stuck with primetime lag forever.

    ESO's development cycle has been a continuous cycle of ignoring things that the rest of the industry already learned a very long time ago. I don't know why this keeps happening, but it does. I would suggest the developers step outside of their box and use the knowledge the rest of the industry gained from the development cycle of games like DAoC, Rift, WoW, etc, and try to implement what worked in those games, instead of trying so desperately hard to be different and unique with absurd ideas like three teams in instanced pvp, which to this day is still one of the most baffling (and disastrous) design decisions I've ever seen in any game.
    Edited by ecru on February 21, 2020 1:16AM
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  • YandereGirlfriend
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    I'm fairly sure that single-target DoTs ARE snapshot at cast-time (IIRC it was TheAsianGod who pointed this out in a post when I had asked and I certainly trust him).

    It's the AoE DoTs that most definitely are not snap-shot and have the variable damage per tick and all of the problems that go along with that.

    The more I see it articulated, the more I begin to like only single instances of DoTs and HoTs being applicable to a target. It really would go a long way reward well-planned groups and diminish the power of large zergs.

    While it would be nice to choose always the "best" instance of a DoT, that could make for strange interactions, and it would probably be better to simply have a new instance of a DoT or HoT overwrite the previous instance, regardless of power.

    I'm sure there's some edge case of people who would cry foul but, as with every patch change, you adapt.
  • ecru
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    I'm fairly sure that single-target DoTs ARE snapshot at cast-time (IIRC it was TheAsianGod who pointed this out in a post when I had asked and I certainly trust him).

    It's the AoE DoTs that most definitely are not snap-shot and have the variable damage per tick and all of the problems that go along with that.

    The more I see it articulated, the more I begin to like only single instances of DoTs and HoTs being applicable to a target. It really would go a long way reward well-planned groups and diminish the power of large zergs.

    While it would be nice to choose always the "best" instance of a DoT, that could make for strange interactions, and it would probably be better to simply have a new instance of a DoT or HoT overwrite the previous instance, regardless of power.

    I'm sure there's some edge case of people who would cry foul but, as with every patch change, you adapt.

    Single target dots would retroactively bypass resists when Corrosive was activated (before Corrosive was changed to only work on single target melee abilities), so there are definitely calculations happening per tick.

    If people really want only one single instances of a dot or hot being applied to someone, then dots would need a tremendous buff or become unpurgeable. It's already bad enough dealing with templar purges when using dots (as a DK), and now Warden has it's dumb auto purge which makes it impossible to keep dots up (negating the majority of an entire class's identity with a passive, very cool decision zos), so something would have to change. Maybe a penalty for purging dots, because right now anyone can purge repeatedly and there is literally no penalty to them for using an ability that negates more damage than any single heal ever could.

    edit: I just tested it, and it appears that penetration (at least from Major Fracture) definitely applies retroactively, which confirms there are at least some calculations happening per tick rather than the damage being snapshotted.
    Edited by ecru on February 21, 2020 4:41AM
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