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How about a native vulkan ESO?

Lady_Linux
Lady_Linux
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please please oh please and please some more @ZOS_GinaBruno may we please have a native vulkan eso please please and please some more?
I simply must protest. There are no Penguin avatars for me to use in the forums.

BTW, I use arch too
  • Ragnarock41
    Ragnarock41
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    Thats not how it works.
  • Pyvos
    Pyvos
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    As far as I am aware, Hero Engine (which is what Elder Scrolls Online utilizes) does not support Vulkan, it strictly supports DirectX and requires the DirectX SDK as part of its development toolchain. It's not just as easy as having a "native vulkan eso".

    Your best bet for running it under Linux is using the standalone w/ DXVK version via Lutris, which will convert DirectX calls to Vulkan and enable you to play it as natively as is actually feasible. I've tested it in the past and get fairly similar performance to running it natively, bare in mind this was last April and performance is always subject to change on a patch-by-patch basis, not to mention depending on the DXVK version utilized.
    Edited by Pyvos on January 24, 2020 1:00AM
  • nafensoriel
    nafensoriel
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    Lady_Linux wrote: »
    please please oh please and please some more @ZOS_GinaBruno may we please have a native vulkan eso please please and please some more?

    Normally I would say something mildly snarky and then reply. This time I am going to just reply.

    Vulkan cannot be retrofit. It must be used from step one. Vulkan has very few tools and the API itself really doesn't hold your hand much. This means it can be extremely powerful if you have the talent, time, and money to use it. You will need more of all three compared to a DirectX project of the same size.

    No one in their right mind(as a programmer) would ever remotely consider retrofitting a piece of software as old and as large as ESO with Vulkan. You might as well light yourself on fire because it would be an endless hell you would never escape from.
  • doomette
    doomette
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    Pyvos wrote: »
    As far as I am aware, Hero Engine (which is what Elder Scrolls Online utilizes) does not support Vulkan, it strictly supports DirectX and requires the DirectX SDK as part of its development toolchain. It's not just as easy as having a "native vulkan eso".

    Your best bet for running it under Linux is using the standalone w/ DXVK version via Lutris, which will convert DirectX calls to Vulkan and enable you to play it as natively as is actually feasible. I've tested it in the past and get fairly similar performance to running it natively, bare in mind this was last April and performance is always subject to change on a patch-by-patch basis, not to mention depending on the DXVK version utilized.

    Ooooooooooh. I was so confused...
  • Lady_Linux
    Lady_Linux
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    i use steam and steam play and dxvk and have been playing eso that way for 2 + years.... Still hoping one day it could happen..
    I simply must protest. There are no Penguin avatars for me to use in the forums.

    BTW, I use arch too
  • idk
    idk
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    Lady_Linux wrote: »
    please please oh please and please some more @ZOS_GinaBruno may we please have a native vulkan eso please please and please some more?

    Normally I would say something mildly snarky and then reply. This time I am going to just reply.

    Vulkan cannot be retrofit. It must be used from step one. Vulkan has very few tools and the API itself really doesn't hold your hand much. This means it can be extremely powerful if you have the talent, time, and money to use it. You will need more of all three compared to a DirectX project of the same size.

    No one in their right mind(as a programmer) would ever remotely consider retrofitting a piece of software as old and as large as ESO with Vulkan. You might as well light yourself on fire because it would be an endless hell you would never escape from.

    Pretty much this. Not a small task and pretty much something Zos is not going to consider unless they totally rewrite the game.

    Basically, not going to happen. If it ever does it will be years from now before Zos would consider reworking the entire game like that.
  • Lady_Linux
    Lady_Linux
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    Lady_Linux wrote: »
    please please oh please and please some more @ZOS_GinaBruno may we please have a native vulkan eso please please and please some more?

    Normally I would say something mildly snarky and then reply. This time I am going to just reply.

    Vulkan cannot be retrofit. It must be used from step one. Vulkan has very few tools and the API itself really doesn't hold your hand much. This means it can be extremely powerful if you have the talent, time, and money to use it. You will need more of all three compared to a DirectX project of the same size.

    No one in their right mind(as a programmer) would ever remotely consider retrofitting a piece of software as old and as large as ESO with Vulkan. You might as well light yourself on fire because it would be an endless hell you would never escape from.

    so programmers are naturally in their right minds? i thought they would be in their left minds???
    I simply must protest. There are no Penguin avatars for me to use in the forums.

    BTW, I use arch too
  • nafensoriel
    nafensoriel
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    Lady_Linux wrote: »
    Lady_Linux wrote: »
    please please oh please and please some more @ZOS_GinaBruno may we please have a native vulkan eso please please and please some more?

    Normally I would say something mildly snarky and then reply. This time I am going to just reply.

    Vulkan cannot be retrofit. It must be used from step one. Vulkan has very few tools and the API itself really doesn't hold your hand much. This means it can be extremely powerful if you have the talent, time, and money to use it. You will need more of all three compared to a DirectX project of the same size.

    No one in their right mind(as a programmer) would ever remotely consider retrofitting a piece of software as old and as large as ESO with Vulkan. You might as well light yourself on fire because it would be an endless hell you would never escape from.

    so programmers are naturally in their right minds? i thought they would be in their left minds???

    Left minded programmers become android/ios app developers and live in the cloud.
  • jcm2606
    jcm2606
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    Lady_Linux wrote: »
    please please oh please and please some more @ZOS_GinaBruno may we please have a native vulkan eso please please and please some more?

    Normally I would say something mildly snarky and then reply. This time I am going to just reply.

    Vulkan cannot be retrofit. It must be used from step one. Vulkan has very few tools and the API itself really doesn't hold your hand much. This means it can be extremely powerful if you have the talent, time, and money to use it. You will need more of all three compared to a DirectX project of the same size.

    No one in their right mind(as a programmer) would ever remotely consider retrofitting a piece of software as old and as large as ESO with Vulkan. You might as well light yourself on fire because it would be an endless hell you would never escape from.

    A friend of mine is writing a custom Vulkan renderer for Minecraft, and he can confirm how it can drive one insane. Literally nothing except the bare essentials to interact with the graphics device is natively available with Vulkan, you have to implement all that yourself.
  • Everstorm
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    .
    Edited by Everstorm on January 24, 2020 10:41AM
  • Mupo
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    I went from using the Steam for my main account, had to buy the stand alone launcher for $7-$10 and it's saved my sanity especially after switching to Linux [Somehow I broke windows, for some setups is not hard, Sorry Windows!] and since have been playing using Lutris with some settings tweaked, I even have PTS working with same settings! :smiley:

    unknown.png

    Hope that helps :)

    Edit: reason I'm using 1.5 and not 1.5.1 is my ground was black with 1.5.1
    2020-01-13_0225.jpg
    Edited by Mupo on January 24, 2020 10:58AM
  • curtisnewton
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  • richo262
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    Mupo wrote: »
    I went from using the Steam for my main account, had to buy the stand alone launcher for $7-$10 and it's saved my sanity especially after switching to Linux [Somehow I broke windows, for some setups is not hard, Sorry Windows!] and since have been playing using Lutris with some settings tweaked, I even have PTS working with same settings! :smiley:

    unknown.png

    Hope that helps :)

    Edit: reason I'm using 1.5 and not 1.5.1 is my ground was black with 1.5.1
    2020-01-13_0225.jpg

    I've had better luck with Steam Proton than Lutris.

    You can add Standalone version to Steam via the non-steam apps. Then check the Steamplay setting. You'll end up with the ESO on Steam and the Non-Steam version also on steam. Just rename it to The Elderscrolls Online Alt Account.

    Unless of course you bought a stand-alone version because Steam was giving you the sh*ts.
  • Chaos2088
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    I came here for Spock jokes!! -nose huff-
    @Chaos2088 PC EU Server | AD-PvP
  • Pyvos
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    That article is clearly not accurate at this stage of development and predates the launch of ESO. Elder Scrolls: Online is literally listed as a client of Hero Engine.
    Edited by Pyvos on January 24, 2020 12:04PM
  • Mupo
    Mupo
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    @richo262

    Aye, steam was giving me the *** [for Windows it literally blue screened me only for ESO]

    BUT You can use Proton from Lutris if you already have that :smiley:
  • Varjovalkea
    Varjovalkea
    Soul Shriven
    Well, it was probably a lot of work but the reality is that Vulkan renderer for ESO already exists. How do I know? Because I play ESO on a Mac as well. Current Macs don't support DX or OpenGL. Care to hazard a guess what's inside UserSettings.txt on Mac?
    SET GraphicsDriver.7 "Vulkan"
    

    Yup, that's right. I wish it was available on Windows version as well. Might run better on Wine.
    Crown Crates? Just Say No.
  • Lady_Linux
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    Well, it was probably a lot of work but the reality is that Vulkan renderer for ESO already exists. How do I know? Because I play ESO on a Mac as well. Current Macs don't support DX or OpenGL. Care to hazard a guess what's inside UserSettings.txt on Mac?
    SET GraphicsDriver.7 "Vulkan"
    

    Yup, that's right. I wish it was available on Windows version as well. Might run better on Wine.

    So it does exist, they just wont let us use it?
    I simply must protest. There are no Penguin avatars for me to use in the forums.

    BTW, I use arch too
  • woe
    woe
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    Lady_Linux wrote: »

    So it does exist, they just wont let us use it?

    That isn't how that works
    uwu
  • Lady_Linux
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    deflorate wrote: »
    Lady_Linux wrote: »

    So it does exist, they just wont let us use it?

    That isn't how that works

    well then how does it work?
    I simply must protest. There are no Penguin avatars for me to use in the forums.

    BTW, I use arch too
  • nafensoriel
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    Lady_Linux wrote: »

    well then how does it work?

    Even if they have tried to do some work in the background it doesn't mean its working or complete.

    Often you will find lines like that in cfg files that are just for internal testing or simply to define something so you can avoid using it.

    There are an absolute ton of "legacy" or "bug-ridden" functions in games. Off the top of my head, there are multiple entries for FO3/FO4/Skyrim about "threaded" functions that will absolutely train wreck your saves and game because they were experiments and are NOT functional or stable. People still see them and claim that somehow Skyrim can run on 8 cores only if Bethesda switched this one flag though.

    /edited for incorrect quote flags

    Edited by nafensoriel on February 23, 2020 12:47AM
  • Varjovalkea
    Varjovalkea
    Soul Shriven

    Even if they have tried to do some work in the background it doesn't mean its working or complete.

    Often you will find lines like that in cfg files that are just for internal testing or simply to define something so you can avoid using it.

    That is the line that defines the graphics driver to be used. That's how you used to switch between DirectX and Opengl on windows and that's where it used to say Opengl on mac builds. Opengl has been deprecated on Macos and Zenimax removed DX9 and Opengl support on windows to reduce the need to support many backends. There are quite strong incentives to find something that works on all platforms... and that would be Vulkan. Yes, the only thing that Macs support is Metal but there's MoltenVK that enables Macs to run Vulkan applications. Lo and behold, on Mac ESO ships with MoltenVK -framework. I think they've done quite a bit more than just tried to do some work.

    I agree that all this still doesn't mean it's complete but these are pretty clear signs of what's happening.
    Edited by Varjovalkea on February 25, 2020 7:37AM
    Crown Crates? Just Say No.
  • Lady_Linux
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    Even if they have tried to do some work in the background it doesn't mean its working or complete.

    Often you will find lines like that in cfg files that are just for internal testing or simply to define something so you can avoid using it.

    That is the line that defines the graphics driver to be used. That's how you used to switch between DirectX and Opengl on windows and that's where it used to say Opengl on mac builds. Opengl has been deprecated on Macos and Zenimax removed DX9 and Opengl support on windows to reduce the need to support many backends. There are quite strong incentives to find something that works on all platforms... and that would be Vulkan. Yes, the only thing that Macs support is Metal but there's MoltenVK that enables Macs to run Vulkan applications. Lo and behold, on Mac ESO ships with MoltenVK -framework. I think they've done quite a bit more than just tried to do some work.

    what is metal?
    I simply must protest. There are no Penguin avatars for me to use in the forums.

    BTW, I use arch too
  • Varjovalkea
    Varjovalkea
    Soul Shriven
    Lady_Linux wrote: »
    what is metal?

    It's Apple's own graphics API. It's a low level API like Vulkan. Of course Apple can't be content with what everyone else is using so they had to do their own and that's the only graphics API they're supporting at the moment.

    Valve bought and open-sourced a compatibility layer called MoltenVK which allows Vulkan applications to run on Metal.
    Crown Crates? Just Say No.
  • Varjovalkea
    Varjovalkea
    Soul Shriven
    Just did a bit more digging to have something more than speculation. This is from 4.2.0 Patch Notes
    We have switched the Mac renderer from OpenGL to MoltenVK (Metal) to support the upcoming release of the upcoming MacOS Mojave. Upon first launching the game, you will notice longer load times and frequent hitching as the shaders are rebuilt for MoltenVK
    Crown Crates? Just Say No.
  • Artemiisia
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    I read it as Vulcan first

    life-imitates-art-astronomers-find-star-trek-planet-vulcan.jpg


    was like damnn thats pushing it abit, if you wanted the npcs to start talking in Vulcan :smiley:
  • Octopuss
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    Pyvos wrote: »
    As far as I am aware, Hero Engine (which is what Elder Scrolls Online utilizes) does not support Vulkan, it strictly supports DirectX and requires the DirectX SDK as part of its development toolchain. It's not just as easy as having a "native vulkan eso".

    Your best bet for running it under Linux is using the standalone w/ DXVK version via Lutris, which will convert DirectX calls to Vulkan and enable you to play it as natively as is actually feasible. I've tested it in the past and get fairly similar performance to running it natively, bare in mind this was last April and performance is always subject to change on a patch-by-patch basis, not to mention depending on the DXVK version utilized.

    Heh, I took a look at Wiki and its website, and damn thing only got DirectX 11 support at the end of 2017, and considering how old ESO is and how much additional work ZOS _probably_ did to the thing, the game might not even support that ( I heard about a wrapper being used or something instead of real Dx11, which likely doesn't help performance at all).
  • TheRealCherokeee3
    TheRealCherokeee3
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    Artemiisia wrote: »
    I read it as Vulcan first

    life-imitates-art-astronomers-find-star-trek-planet-vulcan.jpg


    was like damnn thats pushing it abit, if you wanted the npcs to start talking in Vulcan :smiley:

    lol!! that's exactly what I thought from the title! guess were the only two non tech people here :D
  • Lady_Linux
    Lady_Linux
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    Lady_Linux wrote: »
    what is metal?

    It's Apple's own graphics API. It's a low level API like Vulkan. Of course Apple can't be content with what everyone else is using so they had to do their own and that's the only graphics API they're supporting at the moment.

    Valve bought and open-sourced a compatibility layer called MoltenVK which allows Vulkan applications to run on Metal.

    Good ol' valve. Where would the gaming community be without Steam and Valve....
    I simply must protest. There are no Penguin avatars for me to use in the forums.

    BTW, I use arch too
  • nafensoriel
    nafensoriel
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    Even if they have tried to do some work in the background it doesn't mean its working or complete.

    Often you will find lines like that in cfg files that are just for internal testing or simply to define something so you can avoid using it.

    That is the line that defines the graphics driver to be used. That's how you used to switch between DirectX and Opengl on windows and that's where it used to say Opengl on mac builds. Opengl has been deprecated on Macos and Zenimax removed DX9 and Opengl support on windows to reduce the need to support many backends. There are quite strong incentives to find something that works on all platforms... and that would be Vulkan. Yes, the only thing that Macs support is Metal but there's MoltenVK that enables Macs to run Vulkan applications. Lo and behold, on Mac ESO ships with MoltenVK -framework. I think they've done quite a bit more than just tried to do some work.

    I agree that all this still doesn't mean it's complete but these are pretty clear signs of what's happening.

    If that's the case then I would still lean heavily into Vulkan on MacOS just being testbed development that will never actually see the light of day. It's possible(and hell would be actually pretty awesome) but I just don't see them redoing the whole darn thing for THIS project. Maybe an ESO2.0 reboot in 3-4 more years.

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