What needs help in game by a un bias source. Aka a tier ranking

Xvorg · January 2020

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Something to keep in mind is that none of those "poor" classes are actually so bad at their role that they aren't viable in the hands of a competent player.

They are just "poor" in comparison to the others for end game content.

Like Stam Sorcs. Sorc got a "poor" rating for Stam DD.
Why? Stam Sorcs can do excellent PVE DPS, easily enough to clear the content.
Well, its because Stam Sorcs bring the least to the trials group compared to other options. Because of their AOE focus, they tend to lag behind the other stam builds in single target damage and they don't have as much group buffs and utility.

Its the same with Sorc and Nightblade tanks. They are viable for the job of trials tank, but if you lined up all 6 classes and evaluated their suitability for the job of "end game PVE tank" those two end up with the least amount of group utility...most of the time. Its not that those classes can't tank, its just that most trials groups aren't going to call on them first.

(Note I'm talking about trials. Below that level, the meta simply doesn't matter as a competent player on any class/role is going to be viable. In PVP, again, the skill of the player is going to do a lot more than the build - I say, having been the noob player with a meta build who got crushed. PVP tiers come in more when talking about experienced players.)

And that's really what most lists like these amount to: who gets picked first for the gym class dodgeball teams trials.

Now we are getting somewhere. This is the true issue at hand. The dlc classes are being pick for all roles and are super popular. This threatens the game to become boring.

I'm not sure how you got "Boo, DLC classes are too good" out of what I wrote when I was very specifically saying the "poor" choice classes are only poor in comparison to the others under very specific circumstances.

Seriously, you wanna complain about "DLC classes are popular and so ESO is boring"?

Um, how about the years when if you wanted to tank end game content, you rolled a DK? The years when if you wanted to heal end game content, you rolled a Templar?

There will always, always be a meta. But having options for various roles doesn't make ESO boring.

It can make things boring. If end game pve is all about how many dlc characters are on the team. Last patch it was meta to run 100% necromancer. The ultimate is that good. Its can because boring if meta is pretty much the same 2h or spin to win stam builds. That is optimize if you use a dlc class in pvp. I would say 80% or more of pvp ps4 is this. Only the crazy die hard fans still play their build because they like it. Most player are meta chasers and that can get boring fast.

Don't you think that those players who chase the meta are having a good time?

Avoid projecting your own frustrations on others because that contradicts what you said about being unbiassed, otherwise it will be impossible to consider your opinions seriously.

With that said... You are a PetSorc... how is that you never get bored following that meta? Because it was a meta for almost 2 years... should I take seriously your opinion about following the meta then?

phoenixkungfu · January 2020

Smh the comebacks are so weak. I'm hearing the conversation turning into a sorcerer post. Lol super WEAK tactic. Same user names. Then I'm hearing a teir list that I did not create is bias from me. Lol which is a weak argument again. Listen up not everyone veiws the game in the same light that the same handful of posters do on the forum. That's not just coming from me but other sources. I'm on the forum trying to get feedback to a honest situation. My battle is how do you get though the line to be heard if the same handful of people is standing here since 2014. Maybe this same handful is the dev. Maybe not in any case the topic is not about any 1 class. So please stop with the weak topic change the topic is about teir ranking based on roles.

thadjarvis · January 2020

@phoenixkungfu

No one can provide an unbiased ranking; it's impossible The best we could do is to average everyone's bias by using class by role usage data as it's an average of everyone's choice of best option to play (best by their own bias-criteria which could just be the look of the animations). Unfortunately that data is internal to ZoS.

phoenixkungfu · January 2020

thadjarvis wrote: »

@phoenixkungfu

No one can provide an unbiased ranking; it's impossible The best we could do is to average everyone's bias by using class by role usage data as it's an average of everyone's choice of best option to play (best by their own bias-criteria which could just be the look of the animations). Unfortunately that data is internal to ZoS.

Hopefully this is not the way. I agree that we are all bias. But if what you say is true then everytime there is a meta change most are changing to that class and build. I hate to see this in eso. I think class loyalty is the mark of true skill. I believe if balance is achieved in game. Each class will have a strength and weakness at a role. I pvp I would like to see a level playing field in term of heal, dps, tank. If spin to win builds and 2h build has made stam meta. I would like to see staff skill line being meta as well to balance the gameplay.

thadjarvis · January 2020

@phoenixkungfu

You're asking for the "best". That's like asking what's the best movie, president, book, etc. It's a preference; there is no objective best.

But, if you mean what is the best with A, B, C, D, etc constraints and rules (your personally preferred measuring process) than you can simply rank them on your own.

Best movie, book, etc discussions can either be light-hearted and fun or turn into the typical political type debate of bashing people. Please stay with the later and remember there is no actual answer.

VaranisArano · January 2020

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

Smh the comebacks are so weak. I'm hearing the conversation turning into a sorcerer post. Lol super WEAK tactic. Same user names. Then I'm hearing a teir list that I did not create is bias from me. Lol which is a weak argument again. Listen up not everyone veiws the game in the same light that the same handful of posters do on the forum. That's not just coming from me but other sources. I'm on the forum trying to get feedback to a honest situation. My battle is how do you get though the line to be heard if the same handful of people is standing here since 2014. Maybe this same handful is the dev. Maybe not in any case the topic is not about any 1 class. So please stop with the weak topic change the topic is about teir ranking based on roles.

There will always be a tiered ranking system based on roles.
You've got 6 classes. Unless they all perform exactly the same, there will always be a "best" and a "worst" of the 6 for a given role. There's no getting around that. Even you keep falling into that frame of mind whenever you talk about how DLC classes are the top choices or NBs/Sorcs aren't the top DPS choices.

What I keep trying to point out is that even your Fextralife source is a tier list that compares the classes in terms of specific content roles. All of those classes are viable, they just aren't optimal. And optimal is all that tier lists, including the Fextralife source, care about.

ESO makes all classes viable in all roles, so that even a "poor" ranking still means that they can still complete that role in the hands of a competent player. What ESO doesn't do is guarantee that your class will be optimal or best.

Saying, "No, every class should rate at least a "Good" in every role" is meaningless. There will always be a "best" and a "worst" and that's all the Fextralife chart is saying.

Replace "Poor" with "Viable" and "Excellent" with "Optimal in most cases" and you've got a much more accurate view of how those classes perform in the hands of a competent player, without the emotional terminology.

(Also, it should be obvious, but no one thinks that you biased the Fextralife source. Instead, its simply that every source has its own biases. I already pointed out some of those biases - the Fextralife charts are aimed at beginners looking towards end game PVE with cooperative groups. For example, Stam sorc is NOT a "poor" choice for Stam DPS...unless the source is limiting its focus to which stam DPS are most in demand in trials. That's a bias. No charts are unbiased - you have got to evaluate each source based on its biases.)

thadjarvis · January 2020

oops I mean former lol.

zvavi · January 2020

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

Smh the comebacks are so weak. I'm hearing the conversation turning into a sorcerer post. Lol super WEAK tactic. Same user names. Then I'm hearing a teir list that I did not create is bias from me. Lol which is a weak argument again. Listen up not everyone veiws the game in the same light that the same handful of posters do on the forum. That's not just coming from me but other sources. I'm on the forum trying to get feedback to a honest situation. My battle is how do you get though the line to be heard if the same handful of people is standing here since 2014. Maybe this same handful is the dev. Maybe not in any case the topic is not about any 1 class. So please stop with the weak topic change the topic is about teir ranking based on roles.

Comebacks are weak? What are you even talking about, the table is obviously pve, and obviously, it is almost entirely wrong. Lets go over the table.

Stam dk good: low dmg + no utility, poor.
Mag dk good: neh, mag dk is excellent, there is a reason vCR is plagued with them. They are at top mag dps, with great utility slammed on them.
DK tank excellent: mostly because it is very noob friendly with the magma shell ultimate.
Heal dk poor: agree, main reason is lack of class synergy.

Stamcro excellent: agreed.
Magcro good: nope, excellent too. Same reason as mag dk, high dmg, awesome utility.
Tankcro, good: synergies to group :shrug:
Heal necro good: nope, excellent, amount of synergies necro heal can bring the group makes it top tier.

Stamblade excellent: nope, damage wise it is below things like templar sorc and necro this patch. And has no utility to speak of. I dont like rating things poor, but i wouldn't rate it good either.
Magblade good: same, not that good dmg wise and no utility.
Nb tank poor: ye ok sunspire is full of them for a reason. Major savagery is good for group, and as tanks their survivability is really, really good. So good is the minimum rate they should get.
Nb heal: poor, yep, poor, reason, no synergies.

Stamsorc poor: ha, heaviest hitting stam class after stamcro. No utility though, so rating is good(close to excellent though).
Magsorc excellent: wrong. There is a reason the best mag vCR score has one sorc in their team (spoiler, it is the tank.)
Sorc tank poor: wrong. There is a reason the best mag vCR score has one sorc in their team (spoiler, it is the tank.)
Sorc heal good: sorc healers have the same problem nightblades and dragonknights have, no group synergy that everyone can press. In addition their class passive procs only from skill line that is not useful for healing, and the burst heal has to be double barred. Yep thats a biiiig POOR.

Stamplar good: it is not behind stamsorc much, and brings in a lot of utility with the damaging purge magicka cost that deals a lot of damage and minor debuffs in rotation. Good damage+utility, thats excellent.
Magplar good: while utility wise it is fine (ish) as long as u already have a templar in group, this utility is already there, and the damage is bad this patch. If there is already templar in group, it is poor, if there are none, then good.
Templar tank good: neh. While the utility is there, as long as there is a stamplar or healplar in group that does it's job, it gets poor.
Healplar excellent: agreed utility, great. A lot of utility? Greater! Healers need a lot of it.

Stam den excellent: neh, low dmg no utility, poor.
Magden good: neh, low dmg no utility, poor.
Tank wardens good: low utility+good tankiness, yep, good.
Healdens good: almost, group synergy already puts it in the good area, and their healing power is godlike when needed. They get excellent

Here are arguments. For the why, and how, your table of "unbiased opinion" is wrong.