Why does Brawler grant a damage shield?

Kuwhar · December 2019

I've started soloing dungeons with my Hybrid Templar and I've noticed its far more effective to just spam brawler (even on bosses) with my 2h than any spammable with the 1h + shield skill line.

Not only is it more effective, but it adds vastly more survivability.

Lets compare the 2 AoE morphs that are similar between 2h and 1h+shield.

With Brawler you get: decent AoE damage to cost ratio, with a damage shield that can be refreshed constantly.

With Deep slash: decent AoE damage to cost ratio, -15% damage debuff to enemies.

To me it would make more sense if the extra effects of Brawler and Deep Slash were swapped, considering 1h + shield is an inherently defensive build.

When considering the two options, damage shields are a better option is most situations, outside of maybe a few hard group content scenarios where you want that AoE debuff from Deep Slash.

I'm a fan of 2h, and i'm not necessarily looking for a "nerf", but it's very odd that when im considering how best to solo a dungeon, the better defensive option is to use a 2h and spam Brawler.

OG_Kaveman · December 2019

2h is selfish, you only get a damage shield, s/b helps everyone with minor maim, of course 2h is going to be better solo.

And if you think you are doing more damage with brawler then wrecking blow on a boss, you are wrong.

Kuwhar · December 2019

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

2h is selfish, you only get a damage shield, s/b helps everyone with minor maim, of course 2h is going to be better solo.

That's not really an argument as to why 2h gets a damage shield. It makes the player using it more survivable than a 1h+shield user. It's silly.

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

And if you think you are doing more damage with brawler then wrecking blow on a boss, you are wrong.

When and where did I say that? I use wrecking blow as well, I was comparing the brawler skill as a defensive tool vs 1h+shield's tools.

Yes 1h+shield gets defensive posture but that really isn't a comparable skill as it doesn't do damage and costs much more than brawler. Which is why I used deep slash as the comparison, they are very similar except for the extra effect.

Davadin · December 2019

Kuwhar wrote: »

I've started soloing dungeons with my Hybrid Templar and I've noticed its far more effective to just spam brawler (even on bosses) with my 2h than any spammable with the 1h + shield skill line.

Not only is it more effective, but it adds vastly more survivability.

Lets compare the 2 AoE morphs that are similar between 2h and 1h+shield.

With Brawler you get: decent AoE damage to cost ratio, with a damage shield that can be refreshed constantly.

With Deep slash: decent AoE damage to cost ratio, -15% damage debuff to enemies.

To me it would make more sense if the extra effects of Brawler and Deep Slash were swapped, considering 1h + shield is an inherently defensive build.

When considering the two options, damage shields are a better option is most situations, outside of maybe a few hard group content scenarios where you want that AoE debuff from Deep Slash.

I'm a fan of 2h, and i'm not necessarily looking for a "nerf", but it's very odd that when im considering how best to solo a dungeon, the better defensive option is to use a 2h and spam Brawler.

now consider running that with a vDSA Master 2H Axe Nirnhoned.

It hits like a truck the more u have on you, crazy damage, bleed proc, and build appropriately u get 10k shield everytime.

thats my 2H build grinding CP700 to CP810 in solo-ing Skyreach.

Xvorg · December 2019

In simple words? Because every weapon needs a self defense tool:

1- Destro staff: clench knockback
2- Resto staff: ward
3- bow: Magnum shot knockback
4- S/B: Shielded assault shield
5- DW: Blade cloak
6- 2H: Brawler shield

If you want to take away that defensive tool, then you have to provide another defensive tool for that skill line.

OG_Kaveman · December 2019

Kuwhar wrote: »

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

2h is selfish, you only get a damage shield, s/b helps everyone with minor maim, of course 2h is going to be better solo.

That's not really an argument as to why 2h gets a damage shield. It makes the player using it more survivable than a 1h+shield user. It's silly.

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

And if you think you are doing more damage with brawler then wrecking blow on a boss, you are wrong.

When and where did I say that? I use wrecking blow as well, I was comparing the brawler skill as a defensive tool vs 1h+shield's tools.

Yes 1h+shield gets defensive posture but that really isn't a comparable skill as it doesn't do damage and costs much more than brawler. Which is why I used deep slash as the comparison, they are very similar except for the extra effect.

So the survivability if s/b comes from the passives, you can block 30% more damage. Minor maim lowers the damage output of a mob by 15%, plus defensive stance gives you an extra 10% block mitigation. So right there you get almost 50% damage mitigation from those things, plus 50% from block. Note these are not additive, so the real world number is around 75-80% which is going to be more then your brawler shield. When it comes to damage mitigation, percentages Trump shield values.

I read this wrong- "with my 2h than any spammable with the 1h + shield skill line." I thought you meant 2h spammables. Like I said, 2h is selfish and you are losing damage by not using carve. You are trading survivability for damage.

Ragnarock41 · December 2019

Different weapons offer different things.

Kuwhar · December 2019

Xvorg wrote: »

In simple words? Because every weapon needs a self defense tool:

1- Destro staff: clench knockback
2- Resto staff: ward
3- bow: Magnum shot knockback
4- S/B: Shielded assault shield
5- DW: Blade cloak
6- 2H: Brawler shield

If you want to take away that defensive tool, then you have to provide another defensive tool for that skill line.

Right which is why I said they could swap the maim debuff from deep slash, that still offers great utility.

Those abilities there don't really compare to a damage shield though. Knockbacks are useless on bosses, damage reduction from AoE is nice, but I still think damage shield is the better option, especially when its spammable. Ward is just straight shield, so not really a fair comparison.

I'd say the only comparable skill you listed their was shielded assault, which is lower damage, non-aoe, and higher cost. The shield is a bit better, but not enough to warrant that extra cost and loss of damage.

I don't want 2h to have no defensive options, just the shield is the best defensive option, with nice AoE damage to boot, seems a bit lopsided imo.

idk · December 2019

Kuwhar wrote: »

Lets compare the 2 AoE morphs that are similar between 2h and 1h+shield.

Why are we comparing a weapon designed for inflicting damage to one designed to increase survival? You can use it in the solo world or PvP all you want. But in group content S&B on a DD could get you kicked from the group.

So those two skills are not really simpler. They are not intended to be.

Edit: also, S&B does more for survival than 2H in serious content. It is why tanks use that for the most challenging content. The comparison made in the OP is biased due to the limited nature of what is being taken into consideration.

Kuwhar · December 2019

idk wrote: »

Kuwhar wrote: »

Lets compare the 2 AoE morphs that are similar between 2h and 1h+shield.

Why are we comparing a weapon designed for inflicting damage to one designed to increase survival? You can use it in the solo world or PvP all you want. But in group content S&B on a DD could get you kicked from the group.

So those two skills are not really simpler. They are not intended to be.

Edit: also, S&B does more for survival than 2H in serious content. It is why tanks use that for the most challenging content. The comparison made in the OP is biased due to the limited nature of what is being taken into consideration.

The comparison is exactly for the reason you stated. The 2h weapon designed for inflicting damage has a more efficient option for defense through a low cost spammable.

Nobody said I use 1h+shield to DPS in groups, so no clue what point you think you are making.

How are these skills not similar? They have almost identical damage, cost, and are both AoE. The only differentiating factor is their special effect.

And in my experience, when soloing a dungeon, spamming Brawler gives me better survivability/efficiency than any of the 1h + shield skills.

OG_Kaveman · December 2019

Kuwhar wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

In simple words? Because every weapon needs a self defense tool:

1- Destro staff: clench knockback
2- Resto staff: ward
3- bow: Magnum shot knockback
4- S/B: Shielded assault shield
5- DW: Blade cloak
6- 2H: Brawler shield

If you want to take away that defensive tool, then you have to provide another defensive tool for that skill line.

Right which is why I said they could swap the maim debuff from deep slash, that still offers great utility.

Those abilities there don't really compare to a damage shield though. Knockbacks are useless on bosses, damage reduction from AoE is nice, but I still think damage shield is the better option, especially when its spammable. Ward is just straight shield, so not really a fair comparison.

I'd say the only comparable skill you listed their was shielded assault, which is lower damage, non-aoe, and higher cost. The shield is a bit better, but not enough to warrant that extra cost and loss of damage.

I don't want 2h to have no defensive options, just the shield is the best defensive option, with nice AoE damage to boot, seems a bit lopsided imo.

youre still not getting it. your 10k damage ward is nothing when a boss hits for 175k. you need percentage damage reduction, you need block mitigation. and more to the point, most player choose heroic slash for the ulti gen when they use slash, and that is not a spammable.

for the rcord though, deep slash and brawler do the same damage but brawler is 10% more expensive.

and to be real honest, if you are not using reverse slice for a damage aoe for the 2h, you are losing damage, the area is about the same as brawler(7 meter cone = 153.938/2= 76.969 square meters and reverse slices 5 meter radius = 78.54 square meter but reverse slice is much cheaper, 33% cheaper in fact and the aoe damage is not mitigated.

so here is the thing, you using brawler, you are losing damage in more then one way. which is fine for the survivability you gain, to you. but for real damage dealers, it is not.

not to mention rally, it is weird you haven't brought that up, it is a burst heal that gives you your major buffs, something that s/b doesn't have. to me that is a much larger discrepancy then brawler vs deep slash, a skill no one uses.

The comparison is exactly for the reason you stated. The 2h weapon designed for inflicting damage has a more efficient option for defense through a low cost spammable.

"low cost"

Nobody said I use 1h+shield to DPS in groups, so no clue what point you think you are making.

i actually use s/b on my stamsorc, with power slam as the single target spammable and deep slash as the aoe one. i get 30k+ all the time. more then enough for me.

How are these skills not similar? They have almost identical damage, cost, and are both AoE. The only differentiating factor is their special effect.

brawler is 10% more in cost and has a smaller aoe, by at least 20%.

And in my experience, when soloing a dungeon, spamming Brawler gives me better survivability/efficiency than any of the 1h + shield skills.

the only solo content that matters, vma, can be done just fine with both. i actually use 2h on my stamplar, with carve and rally, cleared it just fine. never used brawler at all.

idk · December 2019

Kuwhar wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Kuwhar wrote: »

Lets compare the 2 AoE morphs that are similar between 2h and 1h+shield.

Why are we comparing a weapon designed for inflicting damage to one designed to increase survival? You can use it in the solo world or PvP all you want. But in group content S&B on a DD could get you kicked from the group.

So those two skills are not really simpler. They are not intended to be.

Edit: also, S&B does more for survival than 2H in serious content. It is why tanks use that for the most challenging content. The comparison made in the OP is biased due to the limited nature of what is being taken into consideration.

The comparison is exactly for the reason you stated. The 2h weapon designed for inflicting damage has a more efficient option for defense through a low cost spammable.

Nobody said I use 1h+shield to DPS in groups, so no clue what point you think you are making.

How are these skills not similar? They have almost identical damage, cost, and are both AoE. The only differentiating factor is their special effect.

And in my experience, when soloing a dungeon, spamming Brawler gives me better survivability/efficiency than any of the 1h + shield skills.

First off, I never said you used S&B. The "you" was generalized as meaning anyone who used such a weapon for a PvE build.

The big picture you are missing is the S&B line is intended for group purposes where the 2H is intended for one persons benefit. The S&B reduces the entire group takes from NPCs. The 2H Brawler reduces the damage the caster takes from NPCs. It is realy a fundamental purpose of the S&B skill line you seem to be missing which is why you mistakenly suggest brawler get the minor maim should be moved to the 2H skill.

Again, the comparison is biased due to the limited nature of what is being considered. It really helps to see the larger picture, the purpose of design, when making such comparisons. Not to mention that the little shield brawler provides would be a joke against the bosses in more challenging content.

Xvorg · December 2019

Kuwhar wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

In simple words? Because every weapon needs a self defense tool:

1- Destro staff: clench knockback
2- Resto staff: ward
3- bow: Magnum shot knockback
4- S/B: Shielded assault shield
5- DW: Blade cloak
6- 2H: Brawler shield

If you want to take away that defensive tool, then you have to provide another defensive tool for that skill line.

Right which is why I said they could swap the maim debuff from deep slash, that still offers great utility.

Those abilities there don't really compare to a damage shield though. Knockbacks are useless on bosses, damage reduction from AoE is nice, but I still think damage shield is the better option, especially when its spammable. Ward is just straight shield, so not really a fair comparison.

I'd say the only comparable skill you listed their was shielded assault, which is lower damage, non-aoe, and higher cost. The shield is a bit better, but not enough to warrant that extra cost and loss of damage.

I don't want 2h to have no defensive options, just the shield is the best defensive option, with nice AoE damage to boot, seems a bit lopsided imo.

Deep slash debuff is far from being a defensive tool. In any case the shield strenght depends on the enemy amount. I don't see hout it should be a problem.

DocFrost72 · December 2019

The interesting thing to note here is you remark that the best defensive option is 2h. That isn't correct. The best mixture of defensive and offensive is certainly 2h, but a sword and shield provides far more defensive capability.dual wield provides more offensive capability. These are things I consider when working my solo builds.

2h has the rally burst heal and brawler. That is more than enough to handle a lot of content that can be soloed, and I wouldn't challenge that notion. However, between defensive posture's damage shield, low slash's minor maim, block value improvement and most importantly block cost reduction, there is a reason very defensive builds favor one hand and shield.

You calculated that for your solo purposes, the mix of damage and survivability of 2h was optimal for your build and I'd likely agree. Why is this strange? Why do you feel an aoe based, stamina based shield needs to be added to sword and shield skill line?

OG_Kaveman · December 2019

Xvorg wrote: »

Kuwhar wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

In simple words? Because every weapon needs a self defense tool:

1- Destro staff: clench knockback
2- Resto staff: ward
3- bow: Magnum shot knockback
4- S/B: Shielded assault shield
5- DW: Blade cloak
6- 2H: Brawler shield

If you want to take away that defensive tool, then you have to provide another defensive tool for that skill line.

Right which is why I said they could swap the maim debuff from deep slash, that still offers great utility.

Those abilities there don't really compare to a damage shield though. Knockbacks are useless on bosses, damage reduction from AoE is nice, but I still think damage shield is the better option, especially when its spammable. Ward is just straight shield, so not really a fair comparison.

I'd say the only comparable skill you listed their was shielded assault, which is lower damage, non-aoe, and higher cost. The shield is a bit better, but not enough to warrant that extra cost and loss of damage.

I don't want 2h to have no defensive options, just the shield is the best defensive option, with nice AoE damage to boot, seems a bit lopsided imo.

Deep slash debuff is far from being a defensive tool. In any case the shield strenght depends on the enemy amount. I don't see hout it should be a problem.

are you actually calling minor maim not a "defensive tool"? deep slash is also the stam based aoe minor maim skill. what would you call reducing your targets damage if not defensive?

idk · December 2019

DocFrost72 wrote: »

The interesting thing to note here is you remark that the best defensive option is 2h. That isn't correct. The best mixture of defensive and offensive is certainly 2h, but a sword and shield provides far more defensive capability.dual wield provides more offensive capability. These are things I consider when working my solo builds.

Very true. OP misses that and thinks because two skills do AoE and cost similarly that comparable. That is why they think moving the "extra effects" would be good.

Also, OP fails to notice the minor maim is not an extra effect. It is from the base skill whereas the brawler shield is an extra effect of the morph. So even there the idea does not make sense.

Not knocking OP but it helps to see how these skills are used across the game. That is something Zos needs to take into consideration when pondering changes to skills. That is also why minor maim will remain with low slash and the related morphs.

Kuwhar · December 2019

sniiiiiiip this

Kuwhar · December 2019

DocFrost72 wrote: »

The interesting thing to note here is you remark that the best defensive option is 2h. That isn't correct. The best mixture of defensive and offensive is certainly 2h, but a sword and shield provides far more defensive capability.dual wield provides more offensive capability. These are things I consider when working my solo builds.

2h has the rally burst heal and brawler. That is more than enough to handle a lot of content that can be soloed, and I wouldn't challenge that notion. However, between defensive posture's damage shield, low slash's minor maim, block value improvement and most importantly block cost reduction, there is a reason very defensive builds favor one hand and shield.

You calculated that for your solo purposes, the mix of damage and survivability of 2h was optimal for your build and I'd likely agree. Why is this strange? Why do you feel an aoe based, stamina based shield needs to be added to sword and shield skill line?

That's a good point, I could have worded it better.

And I should edit my OP frankly. I don't think S&B needs that skill necessarily, but I don't think 2h should have it because it offers too much benefit in the mixture of defense and offense as you put it.

DocFrost72 · December 2019

Kuwhar wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

The interesting thing to note here is you remark that the best defensive option is 2h. That isn't correct. The best mixture of defensive and offensive is certainly 2h, but a sword and shield provides far more defensive capability.dual wield provides more offensive capability. These are things I consider when working my solo builds.

2h has the rally burst heal and brawler. That is more than enough to handle a lot of content that can be soloed, and I wouldn't challenge that notion. However, between defensive posture's damage shield, low slash's minor maim, block value improvement and most importantly block cost reduction, there is a reason very defensive builds favor one hand and shield.

You calculated that for your solo purposes, the mix of damage and survivability of 2h was optimal for your build and I'd likely agree. Why is this strange? Why do you feel an aoe based, stamina based shield needs to be added to sword and shield skill line?

That's a good point, I could have worded it better.

And I should edit my OP frankly. I don't think S&B needs that skill necessarily, but I don't think 2h should have it because it offers too much benefit in the mixture of defense and offense as you put it.

I respectfully disagree, but this makes your position far clearer. Thank you!

Kuwhar · December 2019

idk wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

The interesting thing to note here is you remark that the best defensive option is 2h. That isn't correct. The best mixture of defensive and offensive is certainly 2h, but a sword and shield provides far more defensive capability.dual wield provides more offensive capability. These are things I consider when working my solo builds.

Very true. OP misses that and thinks because two skills do AoE and cost similarly that comparable. That is why they think moving the "extra effects" would be good.

Also, OP fails to notice the minor maim is not an extra effect. It is from the base skill whereas the brawler shield is an extra effect of the morph. So even there the idea does not make sense.

Not knocking OP but it helps to see how these skills are used across the game. That is something Zos needs to take into consideration when pondering changes to skills. That is also why minor maim will remain with low slash and the related morphs.

I see your point, and you are probably right maim should remain on deep slash, I'm fine with that. It was just an idea to swap them, fine that you pointed that out.

But specifically when looking at Brawler, I feel it is overperforming a bit when considering the damage shield on top of the AoE damage.

Xvorg · December 2019

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Kuwhar wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

In simple words? Because every weapon needs a self defense tool:

1- Destro staff: clench knockback
2- Resto staff: ward
3- bow: Magnum shot knockback
4- S/B: Shielded assault shield
5- DW: Blade cloak
6- 2H: Brawler shield

If you want to take away that defensive tool, then you have to provide another defensive tool for that skill line.

Right which is why I said they could swap the maim debuff from deep slash, that still offers great utility.

Those abilities there don't really compare to a damage shield though. Knockbacks are useless on bosses, damage reduction from AoE is nice, but I still think damage shield is the better option, especially when its spammable. Ward is just straight shield, so not really a fair comparison.

I'd say the only comparable skill you listed their was shielded assault, which is lower damage, non-aoe, and higher cost. The shield is a bit better, but not enough to warrant that extra cost and loss of damage.

I don't want 2h to have no defensive options, just the shield is the best defensive option, with nice AoE damage to boot, seems a bit lopsided imo.

Deep slash debuff is far from being a defensive tool. In any case the shield strenght depends on the enemy amount. I don't see hout it should be a problem.

are you actually calling minor maim not a "defensive tool"? deep slash is also the stam based aoe minor maim skill. what would you call reducing your targets damage if not defensive?

I don't consider debuffs as defensive tools per se. They are more like group utility tools. In the case of 2H, that slot is reserved for the new Dizzy

idk · December 2019

Kuwhar wrote: »

idk wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

The interesting thing to note here is you remark that the best defensive option is 2h. That isn't correct. The best mixture of defensive and offensive is certainly 2h, but a sword and shield provides far more defensive capability.dual wield provides more offensive capability. These are things I consider when working my solo builds.

Very true. OP misses that and thinks because two skills do AoE and cost similarly that comparable. That is why they think moving the "extra effects" would be good.

Also, OP fails to notice the minor maim is not an extra effect. It is from the base skill whereas the brawler shield is an extra effect of the morph. So even there the idea does not make sense.

Not knocking OP but it helps to see how these skills are used across the game. That is something Zos needs to take into consideration when pondering changes to skills. That is also why minor maim will remain with low slash and the related morphs.

I see your point, and you are probably right maim should remain on deep slash, I'm fine with that. It was just an idea to swap them, fine that you pointed that out.

But specifically when looking at Brawler, I feel it is overperforming a bit when considering the damage shield on top of the AoE damage.

Compare with it’s sister morph and take into consideration a more developed build that is more than spamming one skill.

Carve does more damage over time. Also, brawlers shield can get fairly large when using the skill against multiple targets but is very small when only one target is present.

In the end one is choosing between being more offensive or defensive when choosing which more to do. So if your just running around Tamriel without a care in the world choose brawler. For when dps/damage per action maters choose carve.

OG_Kaveman · December 2019

Xvorg wrote: »

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Kuwhar wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

In simple words? Because every weapon needs a self defense tool:

1- Destro staff: clench knockback
2- Resto staff: ward
3- bow: Magnum shot knockback
4- S/B: Shielded assault shield
5- DW: Blade cloak
6- 2H: Brawler shield

If you want to take away that defensive tool, then you have to provide another defensive tool for that skill line.

Right which is why I said they could swap the maim debuff from deep slash, that still offers great utility.

Those abilities there don't really compare to a damage shield though. Knockbacks are useless on bosses, damage reduction from AoE is nice, but I still think damage shield is the better option, especially when its spammable. Ward is just straight shield, so not really a fair comparison.

I'd say the only comparable skill you listed their was shielded assault, which is lower damage, non-aoe, and higher cost. The shield is a bit better, but not enough to warrant that extra cost and loss of damage.

I don't want 2h to have no defensive options, just the shield is the best defensive option, with nice AoE damage to boot, seems a bit lopsided imo.

Deep slash debuff is far from being a defensive tool. In any case the shield strenght depends on the enemy amount. I don't see hout it should be a problem.

are you actually calling minor maim not a "defensive tool"? deep slash is also the stam based aoe minor maim skill. what would you call reducing your targets damage if not defensive?

I don't consider debuffs as defensive tools per se. They are more like group utility tools. In the case of 2H, that slot is reserved for the new Dizzy

There are defensive debuffs, like minor main, and offensive debuffs, off balance, like from dizzying swing. It is not an either/or thing. There are both.

pieratsos · December 2019

Kuwhar wrote: »

idk wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

The interesting thing to note here is you remark that the best defensive option is 2h. That isn't correct. The best mixture of defensive and offensive is certainly 2h, but a sword and shield provides far more defensive capability.dual wield provides more offensive capability. These are things I consider when working my solo builds.

Very true. OP misses that and thinks because two skills do AoE and cost similarly that comparable. That is why they think moving the "extra effects" would be good.

Also, OP fails to notice the minor maim is not an extra effect. It is from the base skill whereas the brawler shield is an extra effect of the morph. So even there the idea does not make sense.

Not knocking OP but it helps to see how these skills are used across the game. That is something Zos needs to take into consideration when pondering changes to skills. That is also why minor maim will remain with low slash and the related morphs.

I see your point, and you are probably right maim should remain on deep slash, I'm fine with that. It was just an idea to swap them, fine that you pointed that out.

But specifically when looking at Brawler, I feel it is overperforming a bit when considering the damage shield on top of the AoE damage.

Plenty of abilities will keep ur hp capped while also doing dmg. That doesn't make them overpowered. The content u are doing is just easy.

Grianasteri · December 2019

Leave Brawler alooooooone!!!!!!!

Royaji · December 2019

Let's establish what kind of content are we talking about first. Based on your "soloing dungeons with my Hybrid Templar" I'm going to assume (how dare I?!) that we are talking about normals or easy vets at best? This might explain why you think that Brawler is such a great survivability tool even though in reality it falls apart very quickly once you start ramping the incoming damage up.

Shields do not benefit from block mitigation (which is THE biggest mitigation value in the game) and they are incapable of scaling when you need them to. When you start getting 30-40k hits (and this is what happens in vet content) the shiled from brawler will go "poof" in a second without doing much. Maim though provides 15% mitigation. On a 5k hit it's 750 damage reduction and this might seem worse than just a damage shield. But on a 40k hit it will bump up to 6k reduction. It will also stack additively with all your other mitigation sources (since it's a de-buff you put on a target and not a buff you put on yourself).

Low Slasg is an invaluable mitigation tool that easily outshines Bralwer in a situation where you actually need to be defensive. Brawler fits well on a two-hander since it provides a bit of defensivness to an overall offensive weapon. And this is working as intended.

kojou · December 2019

My impression is that since you only get 10 places to put skills there are a lot of skills that do 2 things. Brawler does AoE and grants a shield, which makes it good for trash pulls. I assume that the combat team designed it with this in mind.

It is balanced by the fact that it is a bit more expensive than a spammable that is primarily for doing damage to 1 target.

JanTanhide · December 2019

It's just another morph choice. I like Brawler a lot. It's fun to use in big mobs.

Davadin · December 2019

Xvorg wrote: »

In simple words? Because every weapon needs a self defense tool:

1- Destro staff: clench knockback
2- Resto staff: ward
3- bow: Magnum shot knockback
4- S/B: Shielded assault shield
5- DW: Blade cloak
6- 2H: Brawler shield

If you want to take away that defensive tool, then you have to provide another defensive tool for that skill line.

Dizzying got a stun!

Oh wait.............

Xvorg · December 2019

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Kuwhar wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

In simple words? Because every weapon needs a self defense tool:

1- Destro staff: clench knockback
2- Resto staff: ward
3- bow: Magnum shot knockback
4- S/B: Shielded assault shield
5- DW: Blade cloak
6- 2H: Brawler shield

If you want to take away that defensive tool, then you have to provide another defensive tool for that skill line.

Right which is why I said they could swap the maim debuff from deep slash, that still offers great utility.

Those abilities there don't really compare to a damage shield though. Knockbacks are useless on bosses, damage reduction from AoE is nice, but I still think damage shield is the better option, especially when its spammable. Ward is just straight shield, so not really a fair comparison.

I'd say the only comparable skill you listed their was shielded assault, which is lower damage, non-aoe, and higher cost. The shield is a bit better, but not enough to warrant that extra cost and loss of damage.

I don't want 2h to have no defensive options, just the shield is the best defensive option, with nice AoE damage to boot, seems a bit lopsided imo.

Deep slash debuff is far from being a defensive tool. In any case the shield strenght depends on the enemy amount. I don't see hout it should be a problem.

are you actually calling minor maim not a "defensive tool"? deep slash is also the stam based aoe minor maim skill. what would you call reducing your targets damage if not defensive?

Ok, I'll quote myself again:

Xvorg wrote: »

In simple words? Because every weapon needs a self defense tool

That's why I see it far from being a self defense tool.

karekiz · December 2019

Essentially this is a reason why:

That skill does minor maim for tanks to apply.
The morphs can either grant more Ult or AoE maim. Both are not terrible. In mass amounts of trash I like AoE maim.
If you remove the maim effect from that morph you might as well remove it from the base skill + other morph as its a specific skill to 1hs.

Which means if a group wants to apply Maim you will need a 2hs to apply maim. The shield from the skill would ultimately be.

Deemed entirely useless. It would essentially just be a skill to gain minor heroism, and the other would be a AoE spammable with a shield nobody would ever touch.