Should purge or cleanse ritual remove effects that doesn't deal direct damage to the health bar?

phoenixkungfu · December 2019

Hi all, It is my belief that purge and cleanse should not remove effects that doesn't deal direct damage to the hp bar or damage shield. I believe this because these abilities simply doesn't have any counter play. In almost every situation purge or cleanse can remove any any all effects. Making a user have a move that is simply overpreforming. It is my belief that there should be universal counter play which will force the user to play through some effects while counting effects that damage the health bar or damages shield. It is my belief that a opponent should be rewarded for smart tactical counter gameplay. Rather than a purge or cleanse ritual user having a 1 button move to beat out all effects.

Ragnarock41 · December 2019

Funny thing is you're not even nerfing purges, you're straight buffing them up to be completely immune to dots with such change.

phoenixkungfu · December 2019

Yep I like it. I think both should be reduced in cost but nerf in utility

phoenixkungfu · December 2019

I think on the templar and price to pay would be a increase in cost based on effects removed up to the cost now. Max remove 6 abilities.

That would be fair.

Ragnarock41 · December 2019

I think purge should be even cheaper however the cost should ramp up when its spammed, call it purge fatigue or something.

Also I absolutely disagree with you as usual. Purges are the only way to counter certain negative effects.

Iskiab · December 2019

Why would you want status effects, immobilizations and things like vulnerabilities to not be cleansable. Makes no sense.

Kadoin · December 2019

Iskiab wrote: »

Why would you want status effects, immobilizations and things like vulnerabilities to not be cleansable. Makes no sense.

To make his/her life easier in PvP with a cheese build that is only countered by skills and sets that purge...

Joy_Division · December 2019

Eventually the OP will make a suggestion that actually improves the game rather than advocating a nerf to a class they don't play.

Ragnarock41 · December 2019

Joy_Division wrote: »

Eventually the OP will make a suggestion that actually improves the game rather than advocating a nerf to a class they don't play.

Well even a broken watch is right twice a day.

ZOS_FalcoYamaoka · December 2019

Greetings,

Some posts have been removed due to their baiting nature. Please remember to abide to the community rules in your discussions.

Imryll · December 2019

But there is counter-play. You have the option of spending resources to recast your debuff while the player debuffed has the option of recasting purge. Both players get to decide if it's worth it to them to continue spending resources (including time) to pursue the matter. It's all part of figuring out what modes of attack are most effective against different classes.

kojou · December 2019

Another Templar nerf from kungfu... Surprise, surprise.

Fawn4287 · December 2019

Are dot build players really complaining about about cleanse? The game could not have a more easy cheesy playstyle than apply 2-4 dots, ultimate, execute. If anything Templar cleanse needs to have the number of other targets that can synergise it significantly reduced and maybe a slight nerf to the healing.

Taleof2Cities · December 2019

Kadoin wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Why would you want status effects, immobilizations and things like vulnerabilities to not be cleansable. Makes no sense.

To make his/her life easier in PvP with a cheese build that is only countered by skills and sets that purge...

Except you forgot that players are giving up a full 5-piece set for a purge effect ... or slotting an expensive skill for cleanse.

Make sure you know what a cheese build is exactly before posting in the forums ...

idk · December 2019

I cannot recall an MMORPG with a cleans that was so limited as what is being suggested here. It makes no sense to have skills designed and intended to remove negative effects as limited as OP suggests. It is great they have their beliefs but it makes no sense.

Neoauspex · December 2019

Yep.

dcam86b14_ESO · December 2019

Stop trying to gut the templar already. We are in a good place after many years.

ecru · December 2019

These abilities have been overperforming for a very very long time. The amount of damage that can be mitigated by one cast of purge or cleanse is far beyond one heal because of the amount of players one cast can affect. These kinds of abilities cannot be repeatedly casted in other games because developers of every other game recognize opportunity cost of abilities that remove debuffs and dots. No ability that can be casted repeatedly should mitigate more damage (even if it's damage over time) than heals that require ult.

I don't agree with the OP about how purge/cleanse should be "nerfed", but they do need to be adjusted down. Being able to just recast an ability over and over again that mitigates basically all debuffs/cc and damage over time abilities on multiple players is extremely overtuned compared to just about every other damage mitigating or healing ability in the game.

Purge/efficient purge - Four DKs could put three separate dots on four separate players, and one templar could cleanse off every single one of those dots with one cast. That's 12 global cooldowns worth of damage/dots being removed with one cast. On top of that, an unlimited amount of dots and debuffs beyond those 16 dots can then be removed with the purify synergy.

Extended Ritual - Same as above, but worse. A templar can cleanse himself of five dots/debuffs (potentially 5 gcds worth of abilities), and then provide every player anywhere nearby with a synergy (Purify) that removes every single dot/debuff off of them, and heals them. One cast of extended ritual could potentially remove 20+ dots/debuffs (or many, many more with large groups) from your entire group, mitigating 5+ gcds of damage/debuffs from everyone in their group.

One cast of anything should not do that much. Let's say that a stack of 3-4 dots in a BG will do 18-25k damage. Removing all of these dots can mitigate well over 100k damage with a single cast of either of these abilities, damage that would have to otherwise be healed in some manner.

Ragnarock41 · December 2019

ecru wrote: »

These abilities have been overperforming for a very very long time. The amount of damage that can be mitigated by one cast of purge or cleanse is far beyond one heal because of the amount of players one cast can affect. These kinds of abilities cannot be repeatedly casted in other games because developers of every other game recognize opportunity cost of abilities that remove debuffs and dots. No ability that can be casted repeatedly should mitigate more damage (even if it's damage over time) than heals that require ult.

I don't agree with the OP about how purge/cleanse should be "nerfed", but they do need to be adjusted down. Being able to just recast an ability over and over again that mitigates basically all debuffs/cc and damage over time abilities on multiple players is extremely overtuned compared to just about every other damage mitigating or healing ability in the game.

Purge/efficient purge - Four DKs could put three separate dots on four separate players, and one templar could cleanse off every single one of those dots with one cast of extended ritual. That's 12 global cooldowns worth of damage/dots being removed with one cast. On top of that, an unlimited amount of dots and debuffs beyond those 16 dots can then be removed with the purify synergy.

Extended Ritual - Same as above, but worse. A templar can cleanse himself of five dots/debuffs (potentially 5 gcds worth of abilities), and then provide every player anywhere nearby with a synergy (Purify) that removes every single dot/debuff off of them, and heals them. One cast of extended ritual could potentially remove 20+ dots/debuffs (or many, many more with large groups) from your entire group, mitigating 5+ gcds of damage/debuffs from everyone in their group.

One cast of anything should not do that much. Let's say that a stack of 3-4 dots in a BG will do 18-25k damage. Removing all of these dots can mitigate well over 100k damage with a single cast of either of these abilities, damage that would have to otherwise be healed in some manner.

I believe smart use of purge should be encouraged but the cost should ramp up to extreme levels if the purify is spammed without care. Dot classes should get a chance to apply their damage eventually.

phoenixkungfu · December 2019

I see your point of view. I believe this is the hardest choice the dev's have to make. purge or cleanse ritual is WHY TO POWERFUL.

Xvorg · December 2019

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

I see your point of all veiwon the topic this is the hardest choice I believe for the dev's. All I know is as purge or cleanse ritual is now. ITs WHAY TO POWERFUL.

Dear OP, when are you going to suggest a nerf to sorcs, so I can go and deny it?

Purge should not be nerfed. In fact Purge and cleanse are way to expensive for what they do, compared to what some sets do almost for free. As @Ragnarock41 says, the problem is spamming purge. His idea of controlling that spam seems OK (increasing its cost like streak or Dodge Roll). Another idea is to put a CD for each effect removed. If ritual removes all 5 effects on the caster, it receives a 5 secs CD, for example. If cleanse removes all 3 effects on the caster, then 3 secs CD.

Ragnarock41 · December 2019

Xvorg wrote: »

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

I see your point of all veiwon the topic this is the hardest choice I believe for the dev's. All I know is as purge or cleanse ritual is now. ITs WHAY TO POWERFUL.

Dear OP, when are you going to suggest a nerf to sorcs, so I can go and deny it?

Purge should not be nerfed. In fact Purge and cleanse are way to expensive for what they do, compared to what some sets do almost for free. As @Ragnarock41 says, the problem is spamming purge. His idea of controlling that spam seems OK (increasing its cost like streak or Dodge Roll). Another idea is to put a CD for each effect removed. If ritual removes all 5 effects on the caster, it receives a 5 secs CD, for example. If cleanse removes all 3 effects on the caster, then 3 secs CD.

I like that idea too. In the end I don't want to say ''nerf purges because they counter me'' , but we've seen what happens when dots are buffed too much, its purge or [snip]. And when dots are weak my window of opportunity to do damage against a class with purify, or an enemy group who happens to have a healer, is just too small.

Again its not a matter of costs its a matter of how frequent this occurs.

[Edit for profanity]

Rianai · December 2019

I'm having an easier time keeping debuffs on a templar than on a warden. Atleast the templar has to spend a quite substantial amount of resources and a gcd for the purge and usually they can not afford to spam it. Meanwhile warden gets free autopurge ...

KageNin · December 2019

No, the only thing about Cleansing ritual is that it should be split for defensive/offensive morphs either heal or do damage, as it's now it heals,deals damage,purges, provides synergy and reduces movement speed.
If that's not overloaded then I don't know what is. And it's a circle of 12m

NBrookus · December 2019

Since the OP is posting yet another thread to nerf everything but sorc, let's do the math.

Purge costs 4k magicka
Curse costs 2500 magicka

This is already a cost battle the templar absolutely can't win versus a sorc, especially stamplar. While the mag sorc can safely pew pew from range and LOS behind their own pets and has superior mobility. And a burst heal as good as Honor the Dead that also heals the pet and 2 other players instead of just the one player HtD does.

If Ritual gets a cost increase for repeated casts, so should Curse and Mages Wrath, right?

If Ritual gets a cooldown before you can recast it at all, why would the opposing players not have a cooldown on the skills they cast that got purged? Can you even imagine the confusion of players with skills greyed out at random times in big battles?

Meanwhile warden gets free purges on a free skill.

Imryll · December 2019

Bottom line if you're spamming purge, you're not casting abilities that will kill your opponent. As we're told every time folks complain about nightblades constantly recloaking, you need to slot tools to counter the abilities available to other classes or accept that you won't do well against them. Maybe abilities that can be purged are not your best choice against a class or build that has ready access to debuff removal.

ZarkingFrued · December 2019

I cant even comprehend these people claiming purge is to expensive. I've never had any problem using it as it removes all of your negative effects, allowing you to sustain much easier. If you didn't have that 1 button purge you'd be blasting your resources to deal with outhealing the dots and debuffs anyhow, so purge actually helps you sustain

Xvorg · December 2019

NBrookus wrote: »

Since the OP is posting yet another thread to nerf everything but sorc, let's do the math.

Purge costs 4k magicka
Curse costs 2500 magicka

This is already a cost battle the templar absolutely can't win versus a sorc, especially stamplar. While the mag sorc can safely pew pew from range and LOS behind their own pets and has superior mobility. And a burst heal as good as Honor the Dead that also heals the pet and 2 other players instead of just the one player HtD does.

If Ritual gets a cost increase for repeated casts, so should Curse and Mages Wrath, right?

If Ritual gets a cooldown before you can recast it at all, why would the opposing players not have a cooldown on the skills they cast that got purged? Can you even imagine the confusion of players with skills greyed out at random times in big battles?

Meanwhile warden gets free purges on a free skill.

Yeah, but the problem is with those classes that depend on DoTs to do dmg (DKs and some NBs builds). I had no problem with ritual until ZoS tweaked DoTs some patches ago to apply the dmg 2 secs after you fired the skill. On top of that, they also increased DoT cost...

The thing is that you are right, giving ritual an increased cost or a CD should benefit sorcs over any other class.

Dragonredux · December 2019

Have we really gotten to the point of asking the removal of RPG staples now? I can see if you were asking about the healing being removed and maybe you'll have an argument there but removing our only defenses against status effects is just a bad idea.

phoenixkungfu · December 2019

I believe a 1 button purge or cleanse to remove all is and always have been a bad idea. The gameplay of templar being over tune to down right game breaking. All happened during a time when players simply had more damage and sorc was over preforming with moves like stuns on frags. Sharpening or penetration was higher. The meta was different.

So as a result player was like game breaking moves are ok. Fastward 2 or 3 years later. Now you have something that shouldn't exist. Classes that are more viable at all roles then the value of a class focusing on just 1 role. It all domino effect from a vision of when the game was first released to the gameplay of today

Xvorg · December 2019

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

I believe a 1 button purge or cleanse to remove all is and always have been a bad idea. The gameplay of templar being over tune to down right game breaking. All happened during a time when players simply had more damage and sorc was over preforming with moves like stuns on frags. Sharpening or penetration was higher. The meta was different.

So as a result player was like game breaking moves are ok. Fastward 2 or 3 years later. Now you have something that shouldn't exist. Classes that are more viable at all roles then the value of a class focusing on just 1 role. It all domino effect from a vision of when the game was first released to the gameplay of today

As a sorc you have a 1 button nigh dmg for 6 secs. Do you think anyone agrees with nerfing shields for that?

Please, stop suggesting nerfs because you are not even close to consider what those nerfs will imply in the future. We already saw waht happened with Wings nerfs, and after that with Reach nerf, so in a world where Purge is nerfed for your own sake, what's follows is a huge nerf on Curse.