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Structured Entropy make a HOT(repeat request)

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relentless_turnip
relentless_turnip
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Hi,

I've seen this mentioned before on these forums and just added this to thread about a 'vigor' magicka morph.

I felt it was an idea that deserved reiterating.

I think they killed this morph in the last patch.
It definitely needed a nerf considering it did damage, healed and provided major sorcery.

I believe instead of removing the major sorcery, it would have been better to remove the DOT.
This would give us a meaningful choice between DOT and HOT.

Obviously it would need to be self cast and the heal would need improving as it is only worthy if cast on multiple targets at the moment.

Maybe if it did the DOT equivalent in health, like 18k over 12 secs?(that's based on my tooltip)

I don't know what would be the right numbers, but would appreciate your thoughts?
  • susmitds
    susmitds
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    No. Last thing magicka needs is more healing.
  • relentless_turnip
    relentless_turnip
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    susmitds wrote: »
    No. Last thing magicka needs is more healing.

    Why not? :lol:

    It's not as if you can stack your bars with heals(unless your a healer).
    At some point you might have to attack?

    All I am suggesting is a heal with a different utility.

    I do appreciate magicka have more options in healing than a stam player...
    I am suggesting a way to revive a dead morph, more so than anything else.

  • susmitds
    susmitds
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    Long Durations HoTs basically work as passive defense, increasing your offensive windows. There is a reason Lingering Health pots got nerfed. Your idea is actually a buff over even the original skill as it will let classes like Magplar get Major Sorcery before combat while currently they have to waste 1 GCD during combat and needs a target too.
  • relentless_turnip
    relentless_turnip
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    susmitds wrote: »
    Long Durations HoTs basically work as passive defense, increasing your offensive windows. There is a reason Lingering Health pots got nerfed. Your idea is actually a buff over even the original skill as it will let classes like Magplar get Major Sorcery before combat while currently they have to waste 1 GCD during combat and needs a target too.

    You make a really good point.

    Nerf the magplars is a separate issue that many have beaten me too :lol:
    (I am joking btw for anyone triggered by that)

    I can definitely see a magplar benefiting from this, but not many builds will drop the DOT for a HOT.
    I myself would be torn...
    As you said in your original reply mag already has access to a lot of heals and better HOT's.

    You could benefit from a freed up skill slot, but at the loss of the strongest DOT in the game(in terms of damage).
    I think it boils down to choice, something I love and hate about this game.
  • Royaji
    Royaji
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    relentless_turnip wrote: »
    susmitds wrote: »
    Long Durations HoTs basically work as passive defense, increasing your offensive windows. There is a reason Lingering Health pots got nerfed. Your idea is actually a buff over even the original skill as it will let classes like Magplar get Major Sorcery before combat while currently they have to waste 1 GCD during combat and needs a target too.

    You make a really good point.

    Nerf the magplars is a separate issue that many have beaten me too :lol:
    (I am joking btw for anyone triggered by that)

    I can definitely see a magplar benefiting from this, but not many builds will drop the DOT for a HOT.
    I myself would be torn...
    As you said in your original reply mag already has access to a lot of heals and better HOT's.

    You could benefit from a freed up skill slot, but at the loss of the strongest DOT in the game(in terms of damage).
    I think it boils down to choice, something I love and hate about this game.

    Ever seen someone drop Vigor for a DoT?
  • Asardes
    Asardes
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    Structured Entropy is already a HoT, albeit a pretty weak one, but it also does damage. It's somewhat equivalent to Blood Craze on stamina, since the tool tips are about the same, on similar stats. I don't see the problem here. Magicka already has a plenty of healing because you either are a class with plenty of heals of your own (Templar, Warden) so you can invest in mitigation running 1H+S on back bar, or you are not and you run resto, preferably Black Rose back bar and you have Ward, Regeneration, Light's Champion for that.
    Beta tester since February 2014, played ESO-TU October 2015 - August 2022, currently on an extended break
    vMA (The Flawless Conqueror) | vVH (Spirit Slayer & of the Undying Song) | vDSA | vAA HM | vHRC HM | vSO HM | vMoL | vAS+1 | Emperor

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    Sabina Flavia Cosades | 50 Imperial Warden | EP AR 20 |
    Ervesa Neloren | 50 Dark Elf Dragonknight | EP AR 20 |
    Fendar Khodwin | 50 Redguard Sorcerer | DC AR 20 |
    Surilanwe of Lillandril | 50 High Elf Nightblade | AD AR 20 |
    Joleen the Swift | 50 Redguard Templar | DC AR 20 |
    Draynor Telvanni | 50 Dark Elf Warden | EP AR 20 |
    Claudius Tharn | 50 Necromancer | DC AR 20 |
    Nazura-la the Bonedancer | 50 Necromancer | AD AR 20 |
    Tharkul gro-Shug | 50 Orc Dragonknight | DC AR 4 |
    Ushruka gra-Lhurgash | 50 Orc Sorcerer | AD AR 4 |
    Cienwen ferch Llywelyn | 50 Breton Nightblade | DC AR 4 |
    Plays-with-Sunray | 50 Argonian Templar | EP AR 4 |
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  • relentless_turnip
    relentless_turnip
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    Royaji wrote: »
    relentless_turnip wrote: »
    susmitds wrote: »
    Long Durations HoTs basically work as passive defense, increasing your offensive windows. There is a reason Lingering Health pots got nerfed. Your idea is actually a buff over even the original skill as it will let classes like Magplar get Major Sorcery before combat while currently they have to waste 1 GCD during combat and needs a target too.

    You make a really good point.

    Nerf the magplars is a separate issue that many have beaten me too :lol:
    (I am joking btw for anyone triggered by that)

    I can definitely see a magplar benefiting from this, but not many builds will drop the DOT for a HOT.
    I myself would be torn...
    As you said in your original reply mag already has access to a lot of heals and better HOT's.

    You could benefit from a freed up skill slot, but at the loss of the strongest DOT in the game(in terms of damage).
    I think it boils down to choice, something I love and hate about this game.

    Ever seen someone drop Vigor for a DoT?

    I wouldn't liken it to Vigor, probably closer to Rally.

    Yes as magicka already have an abundance of HOT's and heals.
    I would speculate that a lot of people would chose 18k damage and a buff as oppose to the heal and the buff.

  • relentless_turnip
    relentless_turnip
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    Asardes wrote: »
    Structured Entropy is already a HoT, albeit a pretty weak one, but it also does damage. It's somewhat equivalent to Blood Craze on stamina, since the tool tips are about the same, on similar stats. I don't see the problem here. Magicka already has a plenty of healing because you either are a class with plenty of heals of your own (Templar, Warden) so you can invest in mitigation running 1H+S on back bar, or you are not and you run resto, preferably Black Rose back bar and you have Ward, Regeneration, Light's Champion for that.

    I wouldn't say it is problem per say... I just haven't seen anyone choosing structured entropy over degeneration.

    I am suggesting instead of doing damage you get major sorcery.
    I just don't think it is going to be utilised in its current state.

    A choice between healing or damage is a choice offered when deciding on your morph.
    I do already feel magicka are spoiled for choice in terms of healing.

    My thoughts on this is to revive a skill I feel was balanced in the wrong way during the last PTS cycle.
  • Ragnarock41
    Ragnarock41
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    Royaji wrote: »
    relentless_turnip wrote: »
    susmitds wrote: »
    Long Durations HoTs basically work as passive defense, increasing your offensive windows. There is a reason Lingering Health pots got nerfed. Your idea is actually a buff over even the original skill as it will let classes like Magplar get Major Sorcery before combat while currently they have to waste 1 GCD during combat and needs a target too.

    You make a really good point.

    Nerf the magplars is a separate issue that many have beaten me too :lol:
    (I am joking btw for anyone triggered by that)

    I can definitely see a magplar benefiting from this, but not many builds will drop the DOT for a HOT.
    I myself would be torn...
    As you said in your original reply mag already has access to a lot of heals and better HOT's.

    You could benefit from a freed up skill slot, but at the loss of the strongest DOT in the game(in terms of damage).
    I think it boils down to choice, something I love and hate about this game.

    Ever seen someone drop Vigor for a DoT?

    That is not a fair comparission. Without Vigor, many stamina classes will cease to be viable in PvP. I'm not even saying competitive, they will literally not be viable.
  • Taleof2Cities
    Taleof2Cities
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    relentless_turnip wrote: »
    A choice between healing or damage is a choice offered when deciding on your morph.
    I do already feel magicka are spoiled for choice in terms of healing.

    Magicka characters are spoiled for healing choices ... yet you want the HoT added back to Structured Entropy.

    Logic much?
  • Asardes
    Asardes
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    relentless_turnip wrote: »
    Asardes wrote: »
    Structured Entropy is already a HoT, albeit a pretty weak one, but it also does damage. It's somewhat equivalent to Blood Craze on stamina, since the tool tips are about the same, on similar stats. I don't see the problem here. Magicka already has a plenty of healing because you either are a class with plenty of heals of your own (Templar, Warden) so you can invest in mitigation running 1H+S on back bar, or you are not and you run resto, preferably Black Rose back bar and you have Ward, Regeneration, Light's Champion for that.

    I wouldn't say it is problem per say... I just haven't seen anyone choosing structured entropy over degeneration.

    I am suggesting instead of doing damage you get major sorcery.
    I just don't think it is going to be utilised in its current state.

    A choice between healing or damage is a choice offered when deciding on your morph.
    I do already feel magicka are spoiled for choice in terms of healing.

    My thoughts on this is to revive a skill I feel was balanced in the wrong way during the last PTS cycle.

    Well it makes sense to pick Structured Entropy on classes that are already running a skill which grants them Major Sorcery: Sorcerer (Critical Surge), Warden (Blue Betty), possibly DK (Molten Armaments). If you want a DoT and an extra heal you can run Structured Entropy on those classes, but it doesn't make much sense, since it's so weak both as damage and heal, at least in PvP. Maybe in PvE it's worth running it.
    Beta tester since February 2014, played ESO-TU October 2015 - August 2022, currently on an extended break
    vMA (The Flawless Conqueror) | vVH (Spirit Slayer & of the Undying Song) | vDSA | vAA HM | vHRC HM | vSO HM | vMoL | vAS+1 | Emperor

    PC-EU CP 3000+
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    Characters:
    Asardes | 50 Nord Dragonknight | EP AR 50 | Master Crafter: all traits & recipes, all styles released before High Isle
    Alxaril Nelcarion | 50 High Elf Sorcerer | AD AR 20 |
    Dro'Bear Three-paws | 50 Khajiit Nightblade | AD AR 20 |
    Veronique Nicole | 50 Breton Templar | DC AR 20 |
    Sabina Flavia Cosades | 50 Imperial Warden | EP AR 20 |
    Ervesa Neloren | 50 Dark Elf Dragonknight | EP AR 20 |
    Fendar Khodwin | 50 Redguard Sorcerer | DC AR 20 |
    Surilanwe of Lillandril | 50 High Elf Nightblade | AD AR 20 |
    Joleen the Swift | 50 Redguard Templar | DC AR 20 |
    Draynor Telvanni | 50 Dark Elf Warden | EP AR 20 |
    Claudius Tharn | 50 Necromancer | DC AR 20 |
    Nazura-la the Bonedancer | 50 Necromancer | AD AR 20 |
    Tharkul gro-Shug | 50 Orc Dragonknight | DC AR 4 |
    Ushruka gra-Lhurgash | 50 Orc Sorcerer | AD AR 4 |
    Cienwen ferch Llywelyn | 50 Breton Nightblade | DC AR 4 |
    Plays-with-Sunray | 50 Argonian Templar | EP AR 4 |
    Milariel | 50 Wood Elf Warden | AD AR 4 |
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    Member of:
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    Characters:
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  • relentless_turnip
    relentless_turnip
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    Taleof2Cities wrote: »
    relentless_turnip wrote: »
    A choice between healing or damage is a choice offered when deciding on your morph.
    I do already feel magicka are spoiled for choice in terms of healing.

    Magicka characters are spoiled for healing choices ... yet you want the HoT added back to Structured Entropy.

    Logic much?

    Yes, but as I have previously said. You can't slot every heal available to you.

    It presents a choice, it grants an alternative to another HOT you may slot.
    More choice isn't an issue unless it impacts balance... does it? I'm not sure, but that is why I raised it as a discussion.
  • relentless_turnip
    relentless_turnip
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    Asardes wrote: »
    relentless_turnip wrote: »
    Asardes wrote: »
    Structured Entropy is already a HoT, albeit a pretty weak one, but it also does damage. It's somewhat equivalent to Blood Craze on stamina, since the tool tips are about the same, on similar stats. I don't see the problem here. Magicka already has a plenty of healing because you either are a class with plenty of heals of your own (Templar, Warden) so you can invest in mitigation running 1H+S on back bar, or you are not and you run resto, preferably Black Rose back bar and you have Ward, Regeneration, Light's Champion for that.

    I wouldn't say it is problem per say... I just haven't seen anyone choosing structured entropy over degeneration.

    I am suggesting instead of doing damage you get major sorcery.
    I just don't think it is going to be utilised in its current state.

    A choice between healing or damage is a choice offered when deciding on your morph.
    I do already feel magicka are spoiled for choice in terms of healing.

    My thoughts on this is to revive a skill I feel was balanced in the wrong way during the last PTS cycle.

    Well it makes sense to pick Structured Entropy on classes that are already running a skill which grants them Major Sorcery: Sorcerer (Critical Surge), Warden (Blue Betty), possibly DK (Molten Armaments). If you want a DoT and an extra heal you can run Structured Entropy on those classes, but it doesn't make much sense, since it's so weak both as damage and heal, at least in PvP. Maybe in PvE it's worth running it.

    I agree with this completely... and your final point is why I believe it is a skill that needs to be revisited.

    I have actually tried running it(PvP)... as you said though it just isn't worth it as it doesn't do either damage or heal very well.

    Which is why I would suggest major sorcery and meh heal is better than meh heal and meh damage.
  • NyassaV
    NyassaV
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    susmitds wrote: »
    No. Last thing magicka needs is more healing.

    What it needs is different healing. Healing ward is almost garbage and rapid regen is really the only good non class heal. What about a small yet effective burst heal like old healing ward???

    That's what magicka needs, DK, Templar, and Warden have those but ever other class doesn't.
    Flawless Conqueror ~ Grand Overlord
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  • Asardes
    Asardes
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    Light's Champion is pretty cheap, even if it's an ultimate. Also most class healing skills scale on magicka.
    Beta tester since February 2014, played ESO-TU October 2015 - August 2022, currently on an extended break
    vMA (The Flawless Conqueror) | vVH (Spirit Slayer & of the Undying Song) | vDSA | vAA HM | vHRC HM | vSO HM | vMoL | vAS+1 | Emperor

    PC-EU CP 3000+
    41,000+ Achievement Points before High Isle
    Member of:
    Pact Veteran Trade: Exemplary
    Traders of the Covenant: God of Sales
    Tamriels Emporium: God of Sales
    Valinor Overflow: Trader
    The Traveling Merchant: Silver

    Characters:
    Asardes | 50 Nord Dragonknight | EP AR 50 | Master Crafter: all traits & recipes, all styles released before High Isle
    Alxaril Nelcarion | 50 High Elf Sorcerer | AD AR 20 |
    Dro'Bear Three-paws | 50 Khajiit Nightblade | AD AR 20 |
    Veronique Nicole | 50 Breton Templar | DC AR 20 |
    Sabina Flavia Cosades | 50 Imperial Warden | EP AR 20 |
    Ervesa Neloren | 50 Dark Elf Dragonknight | EP AR 20 |
    Fendar Khodwin | 50 Redguard Sorcerer | DC AR 20 |
    Surilanwe of Lillandril | 50 High Elf Nightblade | AD AR 20 |
    Joleen the Swift | 50 Redguard Templar | DC AR 20 |
    Draynor Telvanni | 50 Dark Elf Warden | EP AR 20 |
    Claudius Tharn | 50 Necromancer | DC AR 20 |
    Nazura-la the Bonedancer | 50 Necromancer | AD AR 20 |
    Tharkul gro-Shug | 50 Orc Dragonknight | DC AR 4 |
    Ushruka gra-Lhurgash | 50 Orc Sorcerer | AD AR 4 |
    Cienwen ferch Llywelyn | 50 Breton Nightblade | DC AR 4 |
    Plays-with-Sunray | 50 Argonian Templar | EP AR 4 |
    Milariel | 50 Wood Elf Warden | AD AR 4 |
    Scheei-Jul | 50 Necromancer | EP AR 4 |

    PC-NA CP 1800+
    30,000+ Achievement Points before High Isle
    Member of:
    Savage Blade: Majestic Machette

    Characters:
    Asardes the Exile | 50 Nord Dragonknight | EP AR 30 |
  • WrathOfInnos
    WrathOfInnos
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    I actually like the current Structured Entropy for a HoT in some PVE fights. Pretty much any scenario where you get separated from healers (so trial portal/downstairs/upstairs mechanics), if it’s too mobile for Ritual and you don’t want to spam BoL or shields, Structured works alright as a HoT. The damage is weak, but it’s better than no healing or wasting GCD’s and resources on unnecessary burst heals.
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