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Heavy or medium armor for StamDK ?

Czinczar
Czinczar
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Hello,
I primarily play BGs and no cp Cyrodiil, and I feel more comfortable with heavy armor. My sets are bloodspawn, Seventh legion brute and new moon acolyte, all in heavy, and 2h sword + sword&shield. Buffed with volatile armor and rally, i am at 3600WD, and with other buffs from weapons, I can go beyond 4k. Originally all my jewelry was enchanted with weapon damage, but I had to change that because stamina management was horrible, so I replaced 2 of those with stam reduction and stam recovery in order to counter new moon acolyte. I am able to do pretty well but sometimes it feels like I lack big damage.

So my question is, should I go full medium armor, or even 511, or stick with heavy ? Is the added protection from heavy armor worth it ? What should I expect if I went full medium in regard to damage ? (my current heavy armor is tri-stat or stam). I could try it and see for myself but it's a lot of time and resources!

Thanks.
  • ChunkyCat
    ChunkyCat
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    Everyone gather around, I’m about to drop the formula for successful BG play:

    - 1 dps set
    - 1 regen set
    - 1 defensive set

    It even works if you have a combination of all of the above mixed throughout all your equipment. Bloodspawn is a perfect example of this, Stamina & Ultimate regen with Armor resists.

    So, to the OP, I would ditch 7th for an actual tank set. There’s a plethora to choose from, just google some item sets that add pure armor resists. If those tank sets happen to add anything aside from pure Armor Resists, great, that’s just icing on the cake.

    Bloodspawn, NMAcolyte, and a defensive set with lots of Armor.

    As a Stam DK, If you can get all of the above and fit it in so you can take advantage of Medium Armor passives, even better. Think of jewelry for that defensive set.

    That would put you at 5 medium with most likely 2 heavy. Good weapon damage, good stamina regen, and best of all, tankyNess that includes Shuffle.

    Go forth and conquer.
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  • Asardes
    Asardes
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    Overall, you'll get about 6-8% more mitigation from going 5 heavy 2 medium vs. 5 medium 2 heavy, but you'll have less weapon damage, increased cost, and less recovery. But at the same time you won't get as much resources from heavy attacks if you go medium. Own healing is pretty much the same since the 5p armor bonuses from the 2 lines have the same effect 8% healing received vs. 15% weapon damage (rally, vigor, blood craze heals scale on max stamina and weapon damage).

    I don't think New Moon Acolyte and 7th Legion are a good combination though, since you will have a hard time sustaining. Either paired to a sustain set like WW Hide, Essence Thief, Bone Pirate's Tatters or Shacklebreaker would be a good combo. Ideally you should be aiming at around 1.7K stamina recovery buffed w/o New Moon Acolyte, or 1.9-2K with that set. Also remember that it also increases your magicka cost, so keeping up 7th Legion with Hardened Armor, and doing Fragmented Shield when you heal will be tougher. I'm not sure if it increases ultimate costs, but if it does, then it's an even worse choice.
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  • ThePedge
    ThePedge
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    Bloodspawn, Impreg in Divines, 7th Legion, Asylum 2H.

    Warrior Mundus, 5 Medium 2 Heavy.

    Not perfect but does the job for me. There are better sets than 7th for pure damage, but it's just what I have at the moment. Allows me to single-bar it too.
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  • ketsparrowhawk
    ketsparrowhawk
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    Nord DK in medium armor with 2 protective jewelry traits feels great to me.

    For stamDK I like to rely 100% on ulti regen for sustain. Blood Spawn + Champion of the Hist + Witchman (+Nord ulti passive + DK Battle Roar passive) gives ample sustain and constant leaps! Super fun setup and works quite well.

    Hoping someday they'll release a mag version of Witchman so I can do a similar build for my magDK.
  • Czinczar
    Czinczar
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    Here is what it looks like with rally, igneous shield and hardened armor, and 2h weapon in hand, and dubious camoran on, plus warrior mundus stone. With shield in hand resists are 34k. Also, I need to transmute these 2 heavy bloodspawn into Impen.
    pXOFruQ.jpg

    So you guys are basically saying that heavy armor for no-cp pvp is generally a bad choice ?

    It's true that sometimes I have sustain problems and it is often what kills me more than just opponents prowess. I wouldn't say I am not successful but sometimes you know my 2h sword feels like a noodle.

    Thanks for the answers so far.
  • Asardes
    Asardes
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    You most likely lack damage because of penetration. Are you running sharpened? Are you using Noxious Breath?
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  • starkerealm
    starkerealm
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    Czinczar wrote: »
    So you guys are basically saying that heavy armor for no-cp pvp is generally a bad choice ?

    No, it is a choice, neither good nor bad.

    In PvP you need to be able to deal damage and take damage. Fine tuning how much damage you can take, and how much damage you need to be able to deal, is a personal preference.

    The joke I made above is because my PvP magsorc is hilariously aggressive. She doesn't even slot a damage shield. So, I'm running light armor, with very little mitigation, but, I still a lot of success with her because the damage is high enough that the mitigation would be a waste.

    On the other end of the spectrum, I have my PvE Sorc Tank who can take into PvP without altering anything. The damage is not great, but I can still 1v6 because I'm just that durable.

    The short short version of this story is, if it works for you, it's a good choice. If it doesn't work for you, then it's a bad choice.

    None of us can fully answer that.

    I prefer medium stamknights, but I also don't particularly enjoy PvP on DKs. That's just not my thing. So, for me, DK in PvP is a bad choice, regardless of the build.

    Chunky's suggestion is a very good starting point. Pick three sets. Two 5pc, and a monster set. You want one of those sets to boost your damage, one set to boost your survival, and one set to boost your recovery. You don't need to stick to that, but it will give you an idea of what you want when the time comes.
    Co-Host of The Tenets: a podcast focused on bringing new players up to speed in ESO.
  • Asardes
    Asardes
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    Magicka sorcerer has both burst (crystal fragments, haunting curse, endless fury) and good mobility (streak, boundless storm). So indeed you don't need to invest that much in mitigation. Stamina DK lacks both, so it's a different play style together. The only burst you have is leap, which is an (pretty cheap) ultimate, but an ultimate nevertheless. Medium vs. heavy adds a bit of mobility.
    Edited by Asardes on November 18, 2019 3:35PM
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  • starkerealm
    starkerealm
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    Asardes wrote: »
    Magicka sorcerer has both burst (crystal fragments, haunting curse, endless fury) and good mobility (streak, boundless storm). So indeed you don't need to invest that much in mitigation. Stamina DK lacks both, so it's a different play style together. The only burst you have is leap, which is an (pretty cheap) ultimate, but an ultimate nevertheless. Medium vs. heavy adds a bit of mobility.

    When it's working, you can pick up mobility from the S&B. So, that is part of a PvP toolkit if you want them. But, you're not wrong, they are very different playstyles.
    Co-Host of The Tenets: a podcast focused on bringing new players up to speed in ESO.
  • Asardes
    Asardes
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    Asardes wrote: »
    Magicka sorcerer has both burst (crystal fragments, haunting curse, endless fury) and good mobility (streak, boundless storm). So indeed you don't need to invest that much in mitigation. Stamina DK lacks both, so it's a different play style together. The only burst you have is leap, which is an (pretty cheap) ultimate, but an ultimate nevertheless. Medium vs. heavy adds a bit of mobility.

    When it's working, you can pick up mobility from the S&B. So, that is part of a PvP toolkit if you want them. But, you're not wrong, they are very different playstyles.

    Invasion does stun, but AFAIK it's blockable, unlike Streak that as of late stuns even when you block. But a gap closer can only be used offensively, you can't use it to kite people. Having played both quite a bit I can say Magicka Sorcerer is one of the easiest classes to play in PvP and Stamina DK one of the hardest, even if I have probably 5-6x the play time on the latter.
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  • Czinczar
    Czinczar
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    Asardes wrote: »
    You most likely lack damage because of penetration. Are you running sharpened? Are you using Noxious Breath?

    2h sword is legendary infused with weapon damage enchant, and the bar is:
    1. Dizzying swing
    2. Executioner
    3. Noxious breath
    4. Venomous claw
    5. Rally
    6. Take flight

    1h&shield is defending + absorb stamina enchant on the sword and Impen and stam on the shield.
    1. Fossilize
    2. Resolving vigor
    3. Shielded assault
    4. Igneous shield
    5. Hardened Armor
    6. Spell wall

    And I pretty much spam Noxious breath more than I spam Dizzying swing to be honest. I have tried Stone giant but I don't like it. Also I should heavy attack more often.
  • Asardes
    Asardes
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    Czinczar wrote: »
    Asardes wrote: »
    You most likely lack damage because of penetration. Are you running sharpened? Are you using Noxious Breath?

    2h sword is legendary infused with weapon damage enchant, and the bar is:
    1. Dizzying swing
    2. Executioner
    3. Noxious breath
    4. Venomous claw
    5. Rally
    6. Take flight

    1h&shield is defending + absorb stamina enchant on the sword and Impen and stam on the shield.
    1. Fossilize
    2. Resolving vigor
    3. Shielded assault
    4. Igneous shield
    5. Hardened Armor
    6. Spell wall

    And I pretty much spam Noxious breath more than I spam Dizzying swing to be honest. I have tried Stone giant but I don't like it. Also I should heavy attack more often.

    Your bar is OK but I would change to Fragmented Shield for longer Major Mending. They did change Dizying Swing this patch. It used to stun, but now it simply sets targets off-balance. That can be a bit tricky, since you need to only do a heavy attack when you actually need to stun them. So if you don't have leap ready don't use anything but light attacks with your skills since even a medium weave will proc the off-balance and knock them down. After they break free they gain CC immunity for a few seconds so you'll miss your window. Instead of spell wall you can run corrosive armor in some situations but it depends.
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    Tharkul gro-Shug | 50 Orc Dragonknight | DC AR 4 |
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    Cienwen ferch Llywelyn | 50 Breton Nightblade | DC AR 4 |
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  • starkerealm
    starkerealm
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    Asardes wrote: »
    Asardes wrote: »
    Magicka sorcerer has both burst (crystal fragments, haunting curse, endless fury) and good mobility (streak, boundless storm). So indeed you don't need to invest that much in mitigation. Stamina DK lacks both, so it's a different play style together. The only burst you have is leap, which is an (pretty cheap) ultimate, but an ultimate nevertheless. Medium vs. heavy adds a bit of mobility.

    When it's working, you can pick up mobility from the S&B. So, that is part of a PvP toolkit if you want them. But, you're not wrong, they are very different playstyles.

    Invasion does stun, but AFAIK it's blockable, unlike Streak that as of late stuns even when you block. But a gap closer can only be used offensively, you can't use it to kite people. Having played both quite a bit I can say Magicka Sorcerer is one of the easiest classes to play in PvP and Stamina DK one of the hardest, even if I have probably 5-6x the play time on the latter.

    You not wrong at all. And, bolt escape being able to gap close into empty space has so many applications. It has a permanent slot on my tank's back bar, because it's just so useful. Especially with practice.

    This is even more pronounced when you run a pet build, and anyone trying to fight you has to parse out at least three targets. That might not sound like much, but that's a lot of work in a match. Especially when your real target has strong CCs.

    So, yeah, they are entirely different animals, and I agree it's a much easier one to run.

    That said, I do believe my basic point stands: In PvP the "right choice," is the one that works for you and your playstyle. We can offer advice and guidance, but we can't definitively tell you what will work for you.
    Co-Host of The Tenets: a podcast focused on bringing new players up to speed in ESO.
  • Ariades_swe
    Ariades_swe
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    This is now a nerf magsorc thread.
  • ChunkyCat
    ChunkyCat
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    Don’t underestimate Stone giant. Being on the receiving end, I can say it’s pretty effective.
    Edited by ChunkyCat on November 18, 2019 4:20PM
  • Asardes
    Asardes
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    But only having 5.3K penetration from Major Fracture (noxious breath) is a bit low, considering the fact that even players in LA have 15K+ resistance. Sharpened would give you 2.75K more penetration. Extra penetration is better than the extra WD you get from the enchant, damage wise. I would advise you using Sharpened on your execute bar for that reason.

    For example I have 2 Stam DK builds.

    One of them is with heavy armor 2H/1H+S, somewhat similar to yours, but I have extra sustain: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=79025 I run Sharpened on my execute bar because my overall penetration is low (8.1K)

    The other is medium 2W/2H, but I run Spriggans (10.1K), so I can afford to run Nirnhoned on the execute bar
    https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=165561
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    Surilanwe of Lillandril | 50 High Elf Nightblade | AD AR 18 |
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    Draynor Telvanni | 50 Dark Elf Warden | EP AR 18 |
    Claudius Tharn | 50 Necromancer | DC AR 18 |
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    Tharkul gro-Shug | 50 Orc Dragonknight | DC AR 4 |
    Ushruka gra-Lhurgash | 50 Orc Sorcerer | AD AR 4 |
    Cienwen ferch Llywelyn | 50 Breton Nightblade | DC AR 4 |
    Plays-with-Sunray | 50 Argonian Templar | EP AR 4 |
    Milariel | 50 Wood Elf Warden | AD AR 4 |
    Scheei-Jul | 50 Necromancer | EP AR 4 |

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  • ChunkyCat
    ChunkyCat
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    Czinczar wrote: »
    Here is what it looks like with rally, igneous shield and hardened armor, and 2h weapon in hand, and dubious camoran on, plus warrior mundus stone. With shield in hand resists are 34k. Also, I need to transmute these 2 heavy bloodspawn into Impen.
    pXOFruQ.jpg

    So you guys are basically saying that heavy armor for no-cp pvp is generally a bad choice ?

    It's true that sometimes I have sustain problems and it is often what kills me more than just opponents prowess. I wouldn't say I am not successful but sometimes you know my 2h sword feels like a noodle.

    Thanks for the answers so far.

    Is that without CP?
  • Czinczar
    Czinczar
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    It is cp. Also, race is Nord and was originally an argonian pve tank, so cp must be badly distributed but I focus on no-cp pvp so..
  • Asardes
    Asardes
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    Czinczar wrote: »
    It is cp. Also, race is Nord and was originally an argonian pve tank, so cp must be badly distributed but I focus on no-cp pvp so..

    Better show your stats in PvP. Without CP the recovery is probably even lower.
    Beta tester since February 2014, playing ESO-TU since October 2015
    vMA | vVH | vDSA | vAA HM | vHRC HM | vSO HM | vMoL | vAS+1 | Emperor

    PC-EU CP 2500+
    Member of:
    Pact Veteran Trade: Exemplary
    The Alchemist's Emporium: Friend
    Traders of the Covenant: God of Sales


    Characters:
    Asardes | 50 Nord Dragonknight | EP AR 50 | Master Crafter: all traits & recipes, all styles released before Flames of Ambition
    Alxaril Nelcarion | 50 High Elf Sorcerer | AD AR 18 |
    Dro'Bear Three-paws | 50 Khajiit Nightblade | AD AR 18 |
    Veronique Nicole | 50 Breton Templar | DC AR 18 |
    Sabina Flavia Cosades | 50 Imperial Warden | EP AR 18 |
    Ervesa Neloren | 50 Dark Elf Dragonknight | EP AR 18 |
    Fendar Khodwin | 50 Redguard Sorcerer | DC AR 18 |
    Surilanwe of Lillandril | 50 High Elf Nightblade | AD AR 18 |
    Joleen the Swift | 50 Redguard Templar | DC AR 18 |
    Draynor Telvanni | 50 Dark Elf Warden | EP AR 18 |
    Claudius Tharn | 50 Necromancer | DC AR 18 |
    Nazura-la the Bonedancer | 50 Necromancer | AD AR 18 |

    Tharkul gro-Shug | 50 Orc Dragonknight | DC AR 4 |
    Ushruka gra-Lhurgash | 50 Orc Sorcerer | AD AR 4 |
    Cienwen ferch Llywelyn | 50 Breton Nightblade | DC AR 4 |
    Plays-with-Sunray | 50 Argonian Templar | EP AR 4 |
    Milariel | 50 Wood Elf Warden | AD AR 4 |
    Scheei-Jul | 50 Necromancer | EP AR 4 |

    PC-NA CP 1000+
    Member of:
    Savage Blade: Blade


    Characters:
    Asardes the Exile | 50 Nord Dragonknight | EP AR 26 |
  • ChunkyCat
    ChunkyCat
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    Low Stam, Low Stam Regen, you’re going to have a hard time in BGs.

    You should consider switching NMA for Spriggans and the Warrior for the Serpent. Outlasting you’re opponent goes a long way. It’s not a sprint.
  • Asardes
    Asardes
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    You can also gain penetration by running maul instead of sword, but the discussion is a bit more complicated, since the Heavy Weapons passive is calculated after other penetration (Minor/Major Fracture, crusher, sharpened, CP etc). For example on my Stamina Templar build I run Nirnhoned maul on the execute bar, because I don't have access to Major Fracture, so my starting penetration is very low (I only have access to Minor Fracture from PotL). https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=160575
    Beta tester since February 2014, playing ESO-TU since October 2015
    vMA | vVH | vDSA | vAA HM | vHRC HM | vSO HM | vMoL | vAS+1 | Emperor

    PC-EU CP 2500+
    Member of:
    Pact Veteran Trade: Exemplary
    The Alchemist's Emporium: Friend
    Traders of the Covenant: God of Sales


    Characters:
    Asardes | 50 Nord Dragonknight | EP AR 50 | Master Crafter: all traits & recipes, all styles released before Flames of Ambition
    Alxaril Nelcarion | 50 High Elf Sorcerer | AD AR 18 |
    Dro'Bear Three-paws | 50 Khajiit Nightblade | AD AR 18 |
    Veronique Nicole | 50 Breton Templar | DC AR 18 |
    Sabina Flavia Cosades | 50 Imperial Warden | EP AR 18 |
    Ervesa Neloren | 50 Dark Elf Dragonknight | EP AR 18 |
    Fendar Khodwin | 50 Redguard Sorcerer | DC AR 18 |
    Surilanwe of Lillandril | 50 High Elf Nightblade | AD AR 18 |
    Joleen the Swift | 50 Redguard Templar | DC AR 18 |
    Draynor Telvanni | 50 Dark Elf Warden | EP AR 18 |
    Claudius Tharn | 50 Necromancer | DC AR 18 |
    Nazura-la the Bonedancer | 50 Necromancer | AD AR 18 |

    Tharkul gro-Shug | 50 Orc Dragonknight | DC AR 4 |
    Ushruka gra-Lhurgash | 50 Orc Sorcerer | AD AR 4 |
    Cienwen ferch Llywelyn | 50 Breton Nightblade | DC AR 4 |
    Plays-with-Sunray | 50 Argonian Templar | EP AR 4 |
    Milariel | 50 Wood Elf Warden | AD AR 4 |
    Scheei-Jul | 50 Necromancer | EP AR 4 |

    PC-NA CP 1000+
    Member of:
    Savage Blade: Blade


    Characters:
    Asardes the Exile | 50 Nord Dragonknight | EP AR 26 |
  • Davadin
    Davadin
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    aah this is an age-old discussion.

    see my sig. Note that I play full CP. Really loving NMA for the raw numbers AND the buff to my Mag stats.

    I like 7th jewel/weapon because in CP, you can NEVER miss an uptime on Volatile Armor anyway, so 7th will always get triggered. And no issue on resource coz with Molten Arm, I use Heavy Attack more often than not.

    So it is a chunky build, but when everything procs I can still hit 6k WD with "ok" penetration, so its not a wet noodle.

    for BG I do pick medium coz its a faster-paced and u need to hit-n-run, so that's Spriggan with Deadly Strike.

    Bottom-line, you have to experiment different sets with your own playstyle. Don't change your style. Change your set. Even if it's much much lower quality, if you're comfortable with it, you'll be better.


    PS: Stonefist SUCKS for CP PvP coz it hits like wet tissue and the stun never EVER lands, but no-CP Battleground it can get very very annoying, very fast, because one reason: it's 15m ranged.
    August Palatine Davadin Bloodstrake - Nord Dragon Knight - PC NA - Gray Host
    Greymoor 6.0.7 PvP : Medium 2H/SnB The Destroyer
    Dragonhold 5.2.11 PvE : Medium DW/2H The Blood Furnace
    March 2021 (too lazy to add CP) PvP: Medium DW/Bow The Stabber
  • devilsTear
    devilsTear
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    My stamdk is running 5/1/1 medium
    2p bloodspawn
    5p shackle
    5p 7th legion jewels + s&b
    Asylum maul

    And I'm having great fun with him, these are his stats with continuous and tri pot buff but without bloodspawn proc.

    http://imgur.com/gallery/sRN6EVD
    Edited by devilsTear on November 18, 2019 4:59PM
  • Czinczar
    Czinczar
    ✭✭✭
    Asardes wrote: »
    Czinczar wrote: »
    It is cp. Also, race is Nord and was originally an argonian pve tank, so cp must be badly distributed but I focus on no-cp pvp so..

    Better show your stats in PvP. Without CP the recovery is probably even lower.

    Yes I am dumb I didn't think about that, here it is in imperial city no cp
    no buff
    UUw6JDI.jpg

    and buffed
    X2RH56R.jpg
  • MartiniDaniels
    MartiniDaniels
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    Maybe you may try shacklebreaker instead of NMA? Max stamina and recovery is really low.
    If you can't rotate and are constantly out of resources, extra 500 WD doesn't matter.
  • Czinczar
    Czinczar
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    Yes but I feel like shacklebreaker would give me too much magicka and that would be a waste. I have it on my magsorc along with bright throat and it's great for the extra stam which means more break free and dodge, but for this stamdk I don't think it's a good idea, at least for my style of play.
  • devilsTear
    devilsTear
    ✭✭✭
    Czinczar wrote: »
    Yes but I feel like shacklebreaker would give me too much magicka and that would be a waste. I have it on my magsorc along with bright throat and it's great for the extra stam which means more break free and dodge, but for this stamdk I don't think it's a good idea, at least for my style of play.

    Volatile, igneous and cauterize are my stamdk's best friends.
  • Davadin
    Davadin
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    Czinczar wrote: »
    Yes but I feel like shacklebreaker would give me too much magicka and that would be a waste. I have it on my magsorc along with bright throat and it's great for the extra stam which means more break free and dodge, but for this stamdk I don't think it's a good idea, at least for my style of play.

    never leave home without Fragmented Shield.


    ever.


    Back on topic, I'm swapping my 7th with Spriggan. And taking my vMA 2H out and Stampede skill off.

    Because while it works well to build pressure, it does rather costly to stampede left and right. And while the 7th gives me 5k~6k proc wep damage easily, it's hard to argue with 2H Maul Spriggan and 19.7% penetration when you're swinging a Dizzy. It's nasty.

    And yes, still heavy armor coz it does let me live just a little bit longer than a medium....
    August Palatine Davadin Bloodstrake - Nord Dragon Knight - PC NA - Gray Host
    Greymoor 6.0.7 PvP : Medium 2H/SnB The Destroyer
    Dragonhold 5.2.11 PvE : Medium DW/2H The Blood Furnace
    March 2021 (too lazy to add CP) PvP: Medium DW/Bow The Stabber
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