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Indirect buffs/nerfs to Cost Increase Poisons

MentorTots
MentorTots
Soul Shriven
I want to start by saying that this is my first forum post so I apologize for any formatting errors or if this isn't in the right place. I have played Eso for years on console and read through the forums regularly but only recently made an account so I could make this post. Please correct me if i am overlooking anything, thank you.

I personally think that cost increase poisons are too strong but that isn't the point of this post, the point is to point out the indirect buffs that cost increase poisons keep getting that i feel are being overlooked. Every time a skill becomes more expensive, as most skills have been recently, cost increase poisons become more effective because they work off percentages. For example, last patch DKs engulfing flames had a base cost of 2808, which with the 10% increase from cost increase poisons would be 3088. This amounts to an increase of 280 per cast. In the current patch engulfing flames has a base cost of 3510, which with the poison becomes 3861, an increase of 351. This means the poison gets an additional 71 point increase on top of sustain already being hit by increased base costs. Engulfing flames is just an example, this applies to any skill that gets a cost increase, just to slightly varying degrees based on the amount of base cost increase.

This might not seem like a big deal but the further back you go the more times this happens. Even as recently as Elsweyr engulfing flames base cost was 2700, meaning poisons made it 2970, or an increase of 270. This means poisons increase the cost of engulfing flames by 81 points further than they did in Elsweyr. Its not a big deal in small increments but because of the way these poisons function, unless i am misunderstanding them, they keep getting stronger. And of course if skills would be made cheaper, then the poisons would be indirectly nerfed in the same manner.

I have two possible solutions to this that would eliminate this problem while allowing poisons retain their strength while also being more consistent. The first is to make the poisons increase cost of skills by a flat value instead of a percentage. For example, if the goal is to have skills increase in cost by 250 magic/stam, then have the poisons do that. This would eliminate the indirect buffs and nerfs to these poisons, while allowing them to be easily tweaked by changing the value of the cost increase. The issue with this solution i see is that if the value is too low the poisons would become less effective against expensive skills such as shields and heals. While if the cost increase value would be too high, the poisons would be too effective against cheaper skills such as spamables.

The second solution is one that i have seen around before in many places. Instead of having the cost increase poisons increase cost, have them reduce recovery similarly to the siphoner skill in the tower tree of champion points. This would allow the poisons to keep the same functionality of having the target run out of resources quicker and out sustaining them, while still eliminating indirect buffs and nerfs to poisons and make them easier to tweak as sustain changes throughout future patches. Also, if the poisons do not affect resource restore from potions, like the siphoner cp does, it creates an obvious, and seemingly appropriate counter of drinking a potion. And since potions have such a long cooldown, using poisons would still be strong. It also creates an interesting synergy with the siphoner cp that would create builds who focus around having high sustain and survivability while simultaneously draining their targets resources in order to kill them.

I'm sure I'm not the first one to think of either one of these and that neither of them are perfect but its a starting point to fix an issue I'm not sure many people have realized. Again, I apologize for any formatting issues or if this isn't in the right place and I thank you for reading. Please point out any mistakes i made or anything that i may have overlooked, thank you.
  • Luckylancer
    Luckylancer
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    You can look from another angle:
    lets say you could deplete your main resourse in 30 seconds. 10% cost increase poison will reduce it to 27.
    with recent nerfs, lets say you deplete yor resource in 20 second. 10% cost increase poison will reduce it to 18.
    Poison dont have 100% uptime but this is a comparison for the time windows that the debuff is up.

    This means it used to have longer value. So costs nerfs are cost increase poison nerfs too.

    Cost increase poisons should be buffed! I will go open a buff thread right now!


    Movement speed pots have a synergy with sprint cost reduction CP, omg, we cant allow that. nerf it nerf it nerf it
  • MentorTots
    MentorTots
    Soul Shriven
    Pointing out the potential synergy with the siphoner cp was meant to be a positive as it would potentially open up build diversity by allowing people to build solely around draining their opponents resources, I apologize if it didn't come across this way.

    This is by no means a nerf thread, if you look at it, I am trying to find a way to maintain the strength of the poisons while making them not indirectly affected by cost changes in the future, which would result in the poisons being more consistent from patch to patch.

    I also politely asked for you to point out anything that i may have over looked and you did exactly that so I thank you. I hadn't thought of it that way and it certainly warrants further discussion but at first glance it seems that this would counter the individual skill cost increase meaning they balance themselves.

    However, now that I'm thinking this out that only applies in certain situations. If you run the exact same build without adapting at all, then the reduced time it takes to drain your resources while poisoned would counter the individual cost increase. But if, using your numbers, you drain your resources in 30 seconds and after the patch you drain your resources in 20 seconds, literally a third of your sustain disappearing, the natural thing to do would be to add sustain to your build via changing glyphs, mundus, buff food, or sets. To do this you would have to sacrifice either damage or survivability in order to reach the same sustain as before. And if you get back to draining your resources in 30 seconds instead of 20 you would actually be hit harder by poisons as they would again reduce how long you could keep your resources to 27 seconds while simultaneously increasing costs more than they used to. Meaning that people who attempted to adapt to the changes are actually punished more because they lose the survivability or damage they had to give up as well as the sustain they attempted to gain.
  • Jabbs_Giggity
    Jabbs_Giggity
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    I agree with OP, possibly having these Poisons changed to a flat amount instead of %.

    Also, Cost-Increase Poisons should be banned in NO-CP environments, or at the very least in BG's.
  • JumpmanLane
    JumpmanLane
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    Geeze, remember when cost increase poisons were 60% lol. I don’t use them. Who DOES use them?

    Lower than 10% might be better to just outright remove them. If they were 1% someone would whine and ask for a nerf...
    Edited by JumpmanLane on November 9, 2019 12:56AM
  • NBrookus
    NBrookus
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    I like the OP's idea. Cost reduction glyphs are a flat value, not a percentage. There is no cost reduction CP anymore. So 1) there's no direct counter to poisons and 2) classes and builds with overall higher costs (including all magicka specs) are disproportionately affected.

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