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Entropy should give the Major Sorcery buff without DOT

  • SapAndFury
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    wheem_ESO wrote: »
    SapAndFury wrote: »
    Entropy became broken in skalebreaker. Just like Vapirko says above, Entropy did not need a 2.5k/second dot in order for it to be useful. What is so strange about having to slot a skill for major sorcery? For around 1.5 years prior to scalebreaker, I ran molten armaments. Prior to that, Entropy. At no time did I ever think “why doesn’t this do as much damage as my burning embers?”
    Please don't lie and make up numbers in order to support your position.

    1) Entropy ticks once every 2 seconds.
    2) The damage typically averages out to around 900 - 1,100 per tick in no-CP. And I don't just mean that my Entropy does that sort of damage; that's what everyone's does.

    With these two indisputable facts taken into account, the DOT on live is quite literally ~1/4 the DPS that you're trying to claim. And when Rally and Forward Momentum get nerfed down to the same level as Entropy - being useful solely for the Major Brutality buff - I won't find it "strange" that Magicka builds are forced to slot such a bad spell in order to get access to such an important buff.

    1) I just logged into live to check my tooltips. Unbuffed (no major sorcery, weapon enchant proc, etc), my structured entropy is 26,033 over 12 seconds. My burning embers is 21,552 damage over 12 seconds with 4,922 direct damage on initial hit. As my post stated, the power of both of these skills is essentially equal.

    2)Your final paragraph is arguing my point. A skill that grants major sorcery is not intended to be a damage skill. We all have to slot one in some way or another, and we would still do it even if zero damage was attached to it.
  • OG_Kaveman
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    . 2)Your final paragraph is arguing my point. A skill that grants major sorcery is not intended to be a damage skill. We all have to slot one in some way or another, and we would still do it even if zero damage was attached to it.

    Then take the entire dot away and put the heal, buffed to relevance, on one morph and the other morph be the sustain tool it was, 100 per light attack. Giving all morphs major sorcery.
    Edited by OG_Kaveman on September 28, 2019 5:57PM
  • SapAndFury
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    OG_Kaveman wrote: »
    . 2)Your final paragraph is arguing my point. A skill that grants major sorcery is not intended to be a damage skill. We all have to slot one in some way or another, and we would still do it even if zero damage was attached to it.

    Then take the entire dot away and put the heal, buffed to relevance, on one morph and the other morph be the sustain tool it was, 100 per light attack. Giving all morphs major sorcery.

    I couldn’t agree more.

    Even if they kept a DOT, it’s ok for it to be a nearly useless DOT. It has been that way for ages, and magicka builds running Skoria would still slot it for synergy with the monster helm.
  • wheem_ESO
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    SapAndFury wrote: »
    wheem_ESO wrote: »
    SapAndFury wrote: »
    Entropy became broken in skalebreaker. Just like Vapirko says above, Entropy did not need a 2.5k/second dot in order for it to be useful. What is so strange about having to slot a skill for major sorcery? For around 1.5 years prior to scalebreaker, I ran molten armaments. Prior to that, Entropy. At no time did I ever think “why doesn’t this do as much damage as my burning embers?”
    Please don't lie and make up numbers in order to support your position.

    1) Entropy ticks once every 2 seconds.
    2) The damage typically averages out to around 900 - 1,100 per tick in no-CP. And I don't just mean that my Entropy does that sort of damage; that's what everyone's does.

    With these two indisputable facts taken into account, the DOT on live is quite literally ~1/4 the DPS that you're trying to claim. And when Rally and Forward Momentum get nerfed down to the same level as Entropy - being useful solely for the Major Brutality buff - I won't find it "strange" that Magicka builds are forced to slot such a bad spell in order to get access to such an important buff.

    1) I just logged into live to check my tooltips. Unbuffed (no major sorcery, weapon enchant proc, etc), my structured entropy is 26,033 over 12 seconds. My burning embers is 21,552 damage over 12 seconds with 4,922 direct damage on initial hit. As my post stated, the power of both of these skills is essentially equal.

    2)Your final paragraph is arguing my point. A skill that grants major sorcery is not intended to be a damage skill. We all have to slot one in some way or another, and we would still do it even if zero damage was attached to it.
    To be frank, your tooltips aren't all that relevant. What ultimately matters is the amount of damage that's actually done in game, after battle spirit and all other buffs and debuffs are accounted for. I've watched my own damage numbers, and seen a lot of different copies of Entropy on death recaps, and they're almost always averaging out to 900 - 1.1k damage per tick (which, again, is every 2 seconds...half as often as you originally claimed).

    And my second paragraph in no way supports your argument. You tried to claim that Entropy was doing quadruple the actual DPS in PvP (at least when it comes to no-CP numbers). There's also no "rule" which says that skills providing Major Sorcery or Major Brutality can't also be damage skills...that's something else that you've made up. Surely I'm not the only one that remembers the previous iteration of Hidden Blade, which would typically hit just as hard as any other ranged spammable, while also providing Major Brutality and snaring the target by 50%? The current version still does damage, gives Major Brutality, and provides some secondary utility - Entropy isn't some sort of weird, one-of-a-kind outlier. (Sidenote: I know some people aren't happy with the "new" Hidden Blade, and I'd be fine with potential changes there...though I think a lot of the problem is just how overshadowed it is by the astounding power and simplicity of 2h on live).

    If Magicka builds are expected to devote a bar slot to some skill which serves no worthwhile purpose other than providing Major Sorcery, then the same should be true for Stamina builds and Major Brutality. That means either absolutely gutting Rally and Forward Momentum, or removing the Major Brutality and adding it to some other skill which is otherwise worthless.

    While Magicka Necromancer absolutely needs something to improve its offensive capabilities, I'm not entirely wedded to the idea of Entropy being what (partially) fills that need (though I think it's an OK band aid fix, since necessary class changes will probably take an extremely long time, if they ever even adequately materialize at all). I'd be fine with Entropy being turned into a buff-skill that's comparable to its Stamina counterparts, and therefore also usable outside of combat. What I find unacceptable, is this idea that it's A-OK for some class' only source of Major Sorcery to be attached to a pile of garbage, while Stamina gets two extremely good utility skills that also come with Major Brutality attached.
    Edited by wheem_ESO on September 29, 2019 3:55AM
  • Ozby
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    I don't really understand how gutting skills creates build diversity at all. Seems they just do not want anyone to use these skills anymore. (Degeneration, Soul Trap, flame rune etc)
    PC NA
    Aurora Bravepaw (Healden), Basks in Fire (DKTank), Bran Artlion (Magplar), Brindel Seedthorne (Stamden WW), Brugo Gargak (Stamcro), Casimir Delmar (StamDK), Falco Bastion (Stamsorc), Fus Ro Dah (Stamplar), Gandalff the Gay (Petsorc), Jo-Qinan Betula (Magden), Laveera Hex (Magcro), Raine Whitestag (Stamden), Raised by Bears (Wardentank), Ralak Rotheart (Healcro), Selene Sunshadow MagDK), Shadow Mirage (NBTank), Slythe Rattlebone (Healplar), Ulfnor Dragonslayer (Tankcro).
  • Abyssmol
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    Templars should major Sorcery on their on skills now that Entropy is crap!
  • Mayrael
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    So... We have 5.2.2 and this skill still being a trash? Oh come on...
    Say no to Toxic Casuals!
    I am doing my best, but I am not a native speaker, sorry.


    "Difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including A Realm Reborn-tier overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver&Gold as a "you think you do but you don't"-tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game." - @AlexanderDeLarge
  • WrathOfInnos
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    OG_Kaveman wrote: »
    . 2)Your final paragraph is arguing my point. A skill that grants major sorcery is not intended to be a damage skill. We all have to slot one in some way or another, and we would still do it even if zero damage was attached to it.

    Then take the entire dot away and put the heal, buffed to relevance, on one morph and the other morph be the sustain tool it was, 100 per light attack. Giving all morphs major sorcery.

    Or make Structured give Major Sorcery + healing (poor man’s surge), while Degen gives a moderate DoT + Magicka return (offensive morph).
  • Mayrael
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    I doubt anything will change. Magicka gets worse spamables, worse CC's, worse debuffs (off balance, passive bleeds I'm looking at you), we get less mobility and now almost no access to major sorcery on classess without it. Seriously who thought that limiting magicka access to major sorcery only to one morph is a good idea?

    @ZOS_BrianWheeler
    @ZOS_Gilliam
    Say no to Toxic Casuals!
    I am doing my best, but I am not a native speaker, sorry.


    "Difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including A Realm Reborn-tier overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver&Gold as a "you think you do but you don't"-tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game." - @AlexanderDeLarge
  • relentless_turnip
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    I actually think this is a bloody good idea👍

    Make one morph a self HOT and the other a DOT both with major sorcery... It is a great answer to rally and encourages build diversity.

    I would personally choose entropy I reckon...
  • Drdeath20
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    rally/foward momentum.

    Both grant major brutality. Both increase stamina recovery by 10%. Both do not require a target.

    Rally has a controlled burst heal
    Foward momentum gives snare/CC immunity

    Degeneration/strutured entropy should both grant major sorcery and because they both require a target they should both be a DoT

    Degeneration should have a heal element to it

    Strutured entropy should have a recovery element to it
    Edited by Drdeath20 on October 3, 2019 5:35PM
  • sfpiesb14_ESO
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    Drdeath20 wrote: »
    rally/foward momentum.

    Both grant major brutality. Both increase stamina recovery by 10%. Both do not require a target.

    Rally has a controlled burst heal
    Foward momentum gives snare/CC immunity

    Degeneration/strutured entropy should both grant major sorcery and because they both require a target they should both be a DoT

    Degeneration should have a heal element to it

    Strutured entropy should have a recovery element to it

    Soooo..... almost exactly like on live only reversed.

    Though I agree basically they should leave the skill alone and just tone the dot damage down a bit.
  • OrderoftheDarkness
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    It is impossible to compare weapon skill and Guild skill with passive abilities from guilds.
  • Mayrael
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    It is impossible to compare weapon skill and Guild skill with passive abilities from guilds.

    Like comparing vigor and rapid regen hm? It is possible when it suits you (in general people who think like you, no offense mate)?
    Say no to Toxic Casuals!
    I am doing my best, but I am not a native speaker, sorry.


    "Difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including A Realm Reborn-tier overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver&Gold as a "you think you do but you don't"-tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game." - @AlexanderDeLarge
  • OrderoftheDarkness
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    You know best
    Mayrael wrote: »
    It is impossible to compare weapon skill and Guild skill with passive abilities from guilds.

    Like comparing vigor and rapid regen hm? It is possible when it suits you (in general people who think like you, no offense mate)?

    Distance and melee you're a strange man or Rally / Momentum should to shoot from is far and activate passive ability to guilds fighters, which incidentally at all useless... I understand that you sit well on the fifth point on live server but alas life is not fair.
    Edited by OrderoftheDarkness on October 3, 2019 11:20PM
  • Mayrael
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    You know best
    Mayrael wrote: »
    It is impossible to compare weapon skill and Guild skill with passive abilities from guilds.

    Like comparing vigor and rapid regen hm? It is possible when it suits you (in general people who think like you, no offense mate)?

    Distance and melee this applies to you. Or Rally / Momentum should to shoot from is far and activate passive ability to guilds fighters, which incidentally at all useless...

    You compare self target skill and dot, yes I would like to rally to work on distance, similar to rapid regen, you have random chance on casting the skill on your self or ally because I don't see how Rally could work on distance.

    And about those passives I don't care about them, you can have them as those are meaningless. I would give all of them for minor intellect on entropy and burst heal or immunity to snares and roots but this would be to much and nobody wants it we just want to preserve the utility of both morphs!

    I get your point of view: each nerf that doesn't hit me is a good nerf. But that's not the way it should be done.
    Say no to Toxic Casuals!
    I am doing my best, but I am not a native speaker, sorry.


    "Difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including A Realm Reborn-tier overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver&Gold as a "you think you do but you don't"-tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game." - @AlexanderDeLarge
  • Cinbri
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    So what is auxiliary power of Entropy? Because zos said that every skill should have it, you know.
    What is zos excuse for going completely against balance vision with change?

    Every update there is at least 1 change that completely goes against standardization that makes people laugh at zos claims about new consolidate vision, and this is becoming annoying..
  • techprince
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    Guys this seems to be going through the final patch.....
  • ku5h
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    You know best
    Mayrael wrote: »
    It is impossible to compare weapon skill and Guild skill with passive abilities from guilds.

    Like comparing vigor and rapid regen hm? It is possible when it suits you (in general people who think like you, no offense mate)?

    Distance and melee you're a strange man or Rally / Momentum should to shoot from is far and activate passive ability to guilds fighters, which incidentally at all useless... I understand that you sit well on the fifth point on live server but alas life is not fair.

    This made me laugh so hard, for some reason. I know it's a translator or something, but still...lol.
  • OrderoftheDarkness
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    ku5h wrote: »
    You know best
    Mayrael wrote: »
    It is impossible to compare weapon skill and Guild skill with passive abilities from guilds.

    Like comparing vigor and rapid regen hm? It is possible when it suits you (in general people who think like you, no offense mate)?

    Distance and melee you're a strange man or Rally / Momentum should to shoot from is far and activate passive ability to guilds fighters, which incidentally at all useless... I understand that you sit well on the fifth point on live server but alas life is not fair.

    This made me laugh so hard, for some reason. I know it's a translator or something, but still...lol.

    :) I am glad that someone has fun. The atmosphere here is usually very serious. :)

    Edited by OrderoftheDarkness on October 18, 2019 6:47AM
  • LiquidPony
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    They should add the health boost back to it since the skill is now completly gutted.


    It really helped with entropy on front bar and health glyph on shield back bar to get your health up a bit on light armor builds.

    Just another casualty of the spastic flailing at combat balance over the last couple of patches. Niche/interesting utility skills lost everything interesting in the name of the nonsense massive damage buffs in Scalebreaker, now they all get nerfed without getting anything interesting back.

    Brilliant!
    Edited by LiquidPony on October 18, 2019 7:09AM
  • Vexarius
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    I was really happy with the changes last update to this skill. It finally had an identity. I could finally use it. It was the ability I always thought it should be. But no, immediately destroyed next patch. Degeneration’s animation is bad and doesn’t match or feel satisfying now, but I think it should still have that draining-essence style. Over nerfed ability. It would have been completely fine with only the damage reduction done to all dots. I’ve been playing since beta and oddly this is one of the things I’ve been most perturbed by out of everything. It’s just such random and destructive direction on the skills now. Please fix it! !!!!!!!!
  • techprince
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    RIP
  • Girl_Number8
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    LiquidPony wrote: »
    They should add the health boost back to it since the skill is now completly gutted.


    It really helped with entropy on front bar and health glyph on shield back bar to get your health up a bit on light armor builds.

    Just another casualty of the spastic flailing at combat balance over the last couple of patches. Niche/interesting utility skills lost everything interesting in the name of the nonsense massive damage buffs in Scalebreaker, now they all get nerfed without getting anything interesting back.

    Brilliant!

    Zos at it's finest
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