I for one welcome our next Tank meta

BohnT2 · October 2019

We've reached PTS Patch x.x.4 the last one before the game will launch to live servers and it's clear now that there can't be enough changes in Patch 5.2.5 to prevent the next 3 months to be dominated by a high TTK and stall matches in PvP.

Resistance pots haven't even been talked about since week 1

Sets like Pariah, Armor master or the now buffed jolting all beat the version of brass we have on the live server now by giving up to 11k resistances on the 5th piece.

And now to the worst offenders blackrose dual wield and Black rose resto.
Steadfast hero was nerfed(which is a good thing) with the argument that it provided too high mitigation with 50% uptime on major protection.
Both brp dw and resto offer a 100% uptime on major protection or major vitality as long as you want to and on demand.
Dying while using one of those in a 1v1 is impossible even when facing better players.

If brp weapons make it to the live server in their current form they will be used by anyone with half a brain because they easily trash any other competitors by far.
Any build you make gets so much stronger by just equipping either.

Qbiken · October 2019

Haven't you heard, you "sacrifice" having two 5 piece bonuses active att all times with brp weapons

I bet you can't get the weapons yourself and that's why you want them nerfed

/end sarcasm.......

RouDeR · October 2019

I still think BRP dual wield is trash

The resto is way stronger because it applies to 2 targets and Major Protection is waaay easier to access than Major Vitality.

Other than that yeah if we are about to nerf Pariah and Armor Master we need to gut Fury and Seventh Legion as well, especially Fury where it provides 750 weapon damage on full stacka + BUFFs it is total ludacris

Dogzey · October 2019

You give up so much to run BRP weapons.

Kadoozy · October 2019

Dogzey wrote: »

You give up so much to run BRP weapons.

What could you possibly give up that you don't already give up by backbarring weapons? I backbar something on almost every pvp build. Even if it is only willpower. There is no reason not to when you can frontbar most good damage sets. You might be trolling and if so, you got me.

JAwtunes · October 2019

Yeah, the resistance pot thing seems to have been drowned out by the usual forum histrionics. They reduced the duration of lingering health to the point where it is useless on PTS, but then give us a pot that provides 100% uptime on 5k resistances that are not named buffs... and they will be cheap to run.

ketsparrowhawk · October 2019

Just curious.. what would a patch look like in which players don’t predict a tanky meta? I feel like this prediction is made every single patch, regardless of what changes are being made.

xylena_lazarow · October 2019

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Just curious.. what would a patch look like in which players don’t predict a tanky meta? I feel like this prediction is made every single patch, regardless of what changes are being made.

That's because they've been nerfing Defiles, stuns, and damage itself for the past 2+ years, while mostly leaving healing and mitigation the same or stronger in PvP. A good start would be to un-nerf Defiles, un-nerf NB damage buffs, restore the stuns on abilities like Dizzy, Crystal Frags, and Spear Shards, and to restore DoTs and Bleeds to their U22 damage values and functionalities.

The "tank meta" is mostly a plague of tanky healbots forcing everyone in Cyro to zerg if they want kills, and turning BG deathmatches into deathless stalemates. A better start would be to use Battle Spirit to make some PvP-only scaling changes, such as reducing healing done to other players, reducing block mitigation, and increasing block cost. Tanking and Healing should be distinct roles that you build for in PvP, just like PvE, not a package deal you get for free by running any generic heavy armor SnB/resto build.

VaranisArano · October 2019

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Just curious.. what would a patch look like in which players don’t predict a tanky meta? I feel like this prediction is made every single patch, regardless of what changes are being made.

It looks like Summerset, in which everyone and their mother ran Sloads. Even running tanky didn't help very much against constant oblivion damage that could proc off siege and even proc off itself.

Iskiab · October 2019

I actually think it’ll be more of a burst meta than now. It’s already a burst damage meta if you’re a good pvper, it won’t change much and burst will be up.

susmitds · October 2019

Iskiab wrote: »

I actually think it’ll be more of a burst meta than now. It’s already a burst damage meta if you’re a good pvper, it won’t change much and burst will be up.

@Iskiab
It is tank meta alright. Burst is there but nothing like it used to be in the yesteryears. Right now, you get significant time in fights to reset and counter burst.

Years ago, from the infamous soft caps removal to Housing update mostly, burst was much much higher. TTK is very low then mainly due to the fact that it was very easy to punish mistakes. Literally, there were tons of straight one-hit kill builds for all classes like melee bow stamblade, one shot dk archer, overload ganksorc, flareplar etc. Skills had higher damage then(50 cost incap with stun and higher damage than now, wrecking blow with nearly 35% more damage and stun than current dizzying swing, steel tornado with higher execute bonus and 15m range, old Jesus beam, old proxy, old curse, etc). Debuffs like major defile was way more available. Heavy attacks used to deal more than twice its current damage(especially bow heavy, which hit harder than Snipe). Attacks from stealth hit 50% harder. Empower used to give 20% extra damage on skill use. Old camo hunter proc for 10k damage from stealth. Majority of the current best defense sets were not available or borderline weak without their future buffs but most of the best offense sets like Spriggan, spinners, fury, vicious death, etc were there. Most offensive set buffs/debuffs like NMG are unique and stacked with major/minor buffs. Certain class defensive skills like dark cloak were yet to come and classes except Templar relied more on solely shields/vigor to survive than now.

In those days, there were also more ways to survive as pure glass cannons. Everything except ultimate was dodgeable including AoE and with old Evasion, stamina builds, specially stamblades, could create a pretty big window of almost total mitigation with dodge. Glass cannon magicka builds also had the biggest shields, which allowed magsorcs with 16k hp all divines to survive better than most defensive builds. Also sustain was much better than now, with skills like Siphoning attacks potentially returning 2k resources every second, dark deal with higher resource return, cost reduction cp, recovery cp that went upto 25% etc. Higher sustain allowed both higher leeway to build for damage as allow more dodge, block and shield spam if needed.

Iskiab · October 2019

That sounds horrible. There are only a couple of builds that can global glass canon builds I’ve found now.

I started during summerset so was that the starting of the tank meta? That’s all I know, so for me tank vs burst specs are from then.

relentless_turnip · October 2019

JAwtunes wrote: »

Yeah, the resistance pot thing seems to have been drowned out by the usual forum histrionics. They reduced the duration of lingering health to the point where it is useless on PTS, but then give us a pot that provides 100% uptime on 5k resistances that are not named buffs... and they will be cheap to run.

I'm pretty sure these potions provide major ward and resolve don't they? I don't think they can be stacked 🤔

Zatox · October 2019

Bring back sloads meta

Canned_Apples · October 2019

Iskiab wrote: »

I actually think it’ll be more of a burst meta than now. It’s already a burst damage meta if you’re a good pvper, it won’t change much and burst will be up.

not really.
D-swing + onslaught were the biggest offenders, but with both of those being brought in line with the others- overall burst will drop for most stam builds. NBs got a buff, but they've always been decent.

BattleAxe · October 2019

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Just curious.. what would a patch look like in which players don’t predict a tanky meta? I feel like this prediction is made every single patch, regardless of what changes are being made.

Aside from a few subset builds this scalebreaker kind of broke the tank meta players actually die currently

BohnT2 · October 2019

relentless_turnip wrote: »

JAwtunes wrote: »

Yeah, the resistance pot thing seems to have been drowned out by the usual forum histrionics. They reduced the duration of lingering health to the point where it is useless on PTS, but then give us a pot that provides 100% uptime on 5k resistances that are not named buffs... and they will be cheap to run.

I'm pretty sure these potions provide major ward and resolve don't they? I don't think they can be stacked 🤔

They were changed during this pts to be an unnamed buff

TriangularChicken · October 2019

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Just curious.. what would a patch look like in which players don’t predict a tanky meta? I feel like this prediction is made every single patch, regardless of what changes are being made.

That would be a patch without CP (aka playing on the no cp campaign). In No CP there are no tanks that can deal high amount of damage while tanking 10 people...
..but people here are right, players with CP are very tanky and next patch they will be even tankier.

BohnT2 · October 2019

BattleAxe wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Just curious.. what would a patch look like in which players don’t predict a tanky meta? I feel like this prediction is made every single patch, regardless of what changes are being made.

Aside from a few subset builds this scalebreaker kind of broke the tank meta players actually die currently

Because dots are completely overturned, which gets addressed thankfully.
But things which grant high survivability now will be critical next patch especially brp Dw and resto

MCBIZZLE300 · October 2019

JAwtunes wrote: »

Yeah, the resistance pot thing seems to have been drowned out by the usual forum histrionics. They reduced the duration of lingering health to the point where it is useless on PTS, but then give us a pot that provides 100% uptime on 5k resistances that are not named buffs... and they will be cheap to run.

what potions are these?

Victor_Blade · October 2019

BRP weapons are pretty balanced imo. I'd much rather have zos buff the duration of major buffs cos they don't last long enough to change the pace of a fight.

relentless_turnip · October 2019

BohnT2 wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

JAwtunes wrote: »

Yeah, the resistance pot thing seems to have been drowned out by the usual forum histrionics. They reduced the duration of lingering health to the point where it is useless on PTS, but then give us a pot that provides 100% uptime on 5k resistances that are not named buffs... and they will be cheap to run.

I'm pretty sure these potions provide major ward and resolve don't they? I don't think they can be stacked 🤔

They were changed during this pts to be an unnamed buff

What!? 😂 That's hilarious! Do they still add 5280 resIstance?

TiZzA93 · October 2019

What r these new potions?

ElvenVeil · October 2019

yeah many will run new resistance potions. I just find it sad that we have to run somewhat bland potions, when the past there was(imo) really cool stuff like major expedition potions and ofc until next patch lingering health pots. When zos lowers their duration to around 15 seconds people just stop using it, so they basically kill off this old cool stuff

I don't get it. resistance pots just doesn't have that unique feel about them like the other pots did.

in no cp at least tankiness will go up a ton. We will see a lot of1v1 situations where no one will die, simply because heals are still crazy buffed for whichever reason. Combine that with over nerfed dizzy (in no cp at least , damage from dizzy is just downright bad now), you have an extra layer of indirect tankiness there too

Stibbons · October 2019

Blackrose dual wield and Black rose resto will be op as hell. There is no denying that.

iCaliban · October 2019

Trash posts like this is why the game is going to hell. Stop calling for nerfs.

JAwtunes · October 2019

mcb123 wrote: »

JAwtunes wrote: »

Yeah, the resistance pot thing seems to have been drowned out by the usual forum histrionics. They reduced the duration of lingering health to the point where it is useless on PTS, but then give us a pot that provides 100% uptime on 5k resistances that are not named buffs... and they will be cheap to run.

what potions are these?

See week 1 patch notes, the potions will now stack with Major Ward and Resolve (I have checked in PTS). You could use Bugloss, Mudcrab Chitin and Mountain Flower to get increase spell and physical resistance by 5.3k (still for full duration) and heal/ health recovery. That much resistance is better than the unnamed 5pc bonus from fortified brass, even before the recent nerf to that set!

Just use this calculator and ignore the Major Ward/ Major Resolve thing, as these apply to live rather than current PTS. The amount of resistance is correct: https://esolog.uesp.net/viewPotions.php

BattleAxe · October 2019

BohnT2 wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Just curious.. what would a patch look like in which players don’t predict a tanky meta? I feel like this prediction is made every single patch, regardless of what changes are being made.

Aside from a few subset builds this scalebreaker kind of broke the tank meta players actually die currently

Because dots are completely overturned, which gets addressed thankfully.
But things which grant high survivability now will be critical next patch especially brp Dw and resto

Yes nerf dots leave healing untouched and we are back to unkillable players again especially considering sustain is taking a hit on top.

There are a few counters to dots cp purge and heals

BohnT2 · October 2019

BattleAxe wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Just curious.. what would a patch look like in which players don’t predict a tanky meta? I feel like this prediction is made every single patch, regardless of what changes are being made.

Aside from a few subset builds this scalebreaker kind of broke the tank meta players actually die currently

Because dots are completely overturned, which gets addressed thankfully.
But things which grant high survivability now will be critical next patch especially brp Dw and resto

Yes nerf dots leave healing untouched and we are back to unkillable players again especially considering sustain is taking a hit on top.

There are a few counters to dots cp purge and heals

None of those are good enough counters which has been shown multiple times already.

The issues wouldn't be that big without brp weapons!! and nerfs to the things listed above.
There would still be strong healing but a lot less things which open up incredibly high survivability without much investment

BattleAxe · October 2019

BohnT2 wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Just curious.. what would a patch look like in which players don’t predict a tanky meta? I feel like this prediction is made every single patch, regardless of what changes are being made.

Aside from a few subset builds this scalebreaker kind of broke the tank meta players actually die currently

Because dots are completely overturned, which gets addressed thankfully.
But things which grant high survivability now will be critical next patch especially brp Dw and resto

Yes nerf dots leave healing untouched and we are back to unkillable players again especially considering sustain is taking a hit on top.

There are a few counters to dots cp purge and heals

None of those are good enough counters which has been shown multiple times already.

The issues wouldn't be that big without brp weapons!! and nerfs to the things listed above.
There would still be strong healing but a lot less things which open up incredibly high survivability without much investment

Shown where what video shows someone with cp adjusted for dots? I will agree purge is a bad counter but that is mainly because it’s high cost and rng on what effects it removes. However if it’s cost was reduced and it was given smarter targeting as in prioritizes dots then that is a huge and strong counter to dots. With the dot nerf but healing remaining where it’s at this just brings players back to the same problem pre scalebreaker.

kalunte · October 2019

BRP weapons are oversized a lot. ppl seems to forget that they last for 3s only, so if you want the buff to give you a 100% uptime of whatever, you need 1/3 skill in your rotation to be the shied or a dot refresh. if you have nothing else to do and never get CC'd

for sure you'll be hard to kill, but how the hek will you manage to kill someone with less than 2/3 dmg available?

i sincerely dont know, unless you just build for a filthy combo based on latency mgmt and face a sleeping enemy..

simply oversized brp weapons.

as for the tank meta, well, we'll have to deal with it, like always. but it wont be worst than dot meta..