The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
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Sustain Thread unofficial, make it official
Jodynn
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Sustain is important, it is the life substance of combat via skills giving fluid animations, desired combat, and fun.
Here are my arguments as to why the current system is flawed
resource glyphs/cost reduction glyphs and sustain sets
- No one wants to deal less damage if possible
- Current end game content damage in PvE is already severally down by to 80% this patch you would be further reducing it thus making some content unachievable.
heavy attacks
- If you want a heavy attack mechanic make it worth it or give it a different function completely, it's current design is flawed around 3 second delay of dullness for staves and are only really viable in PvP, thus making PvE feel dead weight and ignored.
- Spell symmetry takes up a useful bar-space, aka, a shield or heal for life, also it hurts you thus making a shield even more needed.
- Spell symmetry is only for Magicka characters.
Increase of cost on abilities
- Whatever audit you are using, I think it must overlook actual gameplay and data and is far from accurate, AoE will cost way too much at 5k.
- Then you also increase cost of other things, thus making the outlook even more bleak.
As your usual fashion you swung the hammer and neglected listening to people who actually play your game, giving valuable data and test substance, which would allow you to craft something much more deftly.
Edited by Jodynn on October 16, 2019 3:19PM Here are my arguments as to why the current system is flawed
resource glyphs/cost reduction glyphs and sustain sets
- No one wants to deal less damage if possible
- Current end game content damage in PvE is already severally down by to 80% this patch you would be further reducing it thus making some content unachievable.
heavy attacks
- If you want a heavy attack mechanic make it worth it or give it a different function completely, it's current design is flawed around 3 second delay of dullness for staves and are only really viable in PvP, thus making PvE feel dead weight and ignored.
- Spell symmetry takes up a useful bar-space, aka, a shield or heal for life, also it hurts you thus making a shield even more needed.
- Spell symmetry is only for Magicka characters.
Increase of cost on abilities
- Whatever audit you are using, I think it must overlook actual gameplay and data and is far from accurate, AoE will cost way too much at 5k.
- Then you also increase cost of other things, thus making the outlook even more bleak.
As your usual fashion you swung the hammer and neglected listening to people who actually play your game, giving valuable data and test substance, which would allow you to craft something much more deftly.
Jodynn PC NA
PvE and PvP MagDK
The lack of communication from ZOS to player speaks volumes.
PvE and PvP MagDK
The lack of communication from ZOS to player speaks volumes.
2
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ThePedge✭✭✭✭✭Current end game content damage in PvE is already severally down by around 80% this patch you would be further reducing it thus making some content unachievable.
Lmao it's down like 20% max.1 -
RaptorRodeoGod✭✭✭✭✭God forbid a DPS would have to slot a sustain set. That's just nonsense
Give all classes access to a Scribing skill that works like Arcanist beam.
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Overland difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 10 years. 6 paid expansions. 25 DLCs. 41 game changing updates including One Tamriel, an overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver & Gold as a "you think you do but you don't" - tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game. I'm bored of dungeons, I'm bored of trials; make a personal difficulty slider for overland. Make a self debuff mythic. Literally anything at this point.2 -
beadabow✭✭✭brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »Sustain is important, it is the life substance of combat via skills giving fluid animations, desired combat, and fun.
Here are my arguments as to why the current system is flawed
resource glyphs/cost reduction glyphs
- No one wants to deal less damage if possible
- Current end game content damage in PvE is already severally down by around 80% this patch you would be further reducing it thus making some content unachievable.
heavy attacks
- If you want a heavy attack mechanic make it worth it or give it a different function completely, it's current design is flawed around 3 second delay of dullness for staves and are only really viable in PvP, thus making PvE feel dead weight and ignored.
- Spell symmetry takes up a useful bar-space, aka, a shield or heal for life, also it hurts you thus making a shield even more needed.
- Spell symmetry is only for Magicka characters.
Increase of cost on abilities
- Whatever audit you are using, I think it must overlook actual gameplay and data and is far from accurate, AoE will cost way too much at 5k.
- Then you also increase cost of other things, thus making the outlook even more bleak.
As your usual fashion you swung the hammer and neglected listening to people who actually play your game, giving valuable data and test substance, which would allow you to craft something much more deftly.
Though I do not disagree with your OP, I do want to counter your opening argument to state that as a long-time DPS player, I will often willingly take a hit to my damage output to increase my sustain when I need to. I shuffle CP around, change enchants, and even use add-ons to change gear in the middle of some vet content ( vMA and some bosses in vet dungeons I am soloing for example) just to progress. Still, I DO prefer to be able to do as much damage as I can whenever possible for the sake of brevity.Edited by beadabow on October 16, 2019 11:07AM0 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »God forbid a DPS would have to slot a sustain set. That's just nonsense
It is actually. Ever since ESO came out it has been advantageous DPS-wise and max out on damage sets. Even though it's not very fun to play, people are going to slot spell symmetry or heavy attack because that gets the highest DPS.
And ZOS's content is almost 100% DPS-centric.
So ZOS leaves us two choices: Have less fun playing or keep wiping on that Dragon boss because your DPS isn't high enough ... and have less fun playing.6 -
mikemacon✭✭✭✭✭Lulz.
You can't have your cake and eat it, too. You're going to have to choose between high output but low sustain, or a more balanced sustain build.
And for the record, heavy attacks are just fine. If you build for them and incorporate them into your rotation (like a well-designed HA build will) then you won't need to use either recovery glyphs or a sustain set. Heavy attacks do damage AND restore resources.
Y'all only think they're "sooooooo booooooring" because that's what you've been told to think.
YMMV.1 -
SidraWillowsky✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »Current end game content damage in PvE is already severally down by around 80% this patch you would be further reducing it thus making some content unachievable.
My DPS is down quite a bit across the board if I look at my DPS numbers in 5.2 compared to 5.1 on the 6 mil. For me, the 6 mil is reflective of the numbers I pull in dungeons and trials, so that's my personal metric:
Magden (main): 48k in 5.2.3, down from 52k in 5.1: (48-52)/52 = about an 8% decrease
Stamblade: 41k in 5.2.3, down from 48k in 5.1: (41-48)/48 = about a 15% decrease
Magblade: 43k in 5.2.3, down from 48k in 5.1: (43-48)/48 = about a 10% decrease
But wait...I feel like the DPS numbers in 5.1 were wildly high relative to the changes in DPS I've seen since I started playing in July of 2018 (not a super long time, but long enough to observe trends). How do things in 5.2 compare to Elsweyr (was it 5.0?)?
Magden: 48k in 5.2, up from 43k in 5.0: (48-43)/43 = about a 12% increase
Magblade: 43k in 5.2, up from 40k in 5.0: (43-40)/40 = about an 8% increase
My stamblade is the only one suffering, though this also reflects the fact that I switched to magden full-time right before Elsweyr hit, so I'm not great with the current meta rotations: 41k in 5.2, down from 45k in 5.0: (41-45)/45 = about a 9% decrease.
I'm not actually having super terrible sustain issues in 5.2 on any of the above classes. It's actually a relief on the magden- on live I don't have room on my bars to run Netch or Inner Light or even Elemental Drain when I parse, so I HAVE to wear False God's. Not to mention the chaos of casting shalks in between trying to keep up wall of elements, destructive reach, fetcher infection, degeneration, soul trap, scalding rune, and barbed trap/channeled acceleration. Now I can run Netch and have been able to drop rune, reach, degen, and soul trap.
On my nightblades I run siphoning or leeching strikes.
My mag toons are faring better than the stam toons though; I usually hit a LA/second ratio of close to .9, so that helps with mag return. I'm a lot less comfortable weaving using melee weaps, so I feel the sustain a bit more there.
I don't really play any of the classes infamous for sustain issues, so I'm probably missing things...
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Vahrokh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »God forbid a DPS would have to slot a sustain set. That's just nonsense
Sure. If only 100% of ESO content was not built with min maxed DPS performance in mind...Vaerah, Dark Elf Magicka Sorceress
Trials addict, soloer extraordinaire!
Here are my Elder Scrolls Online videos
Here is the Sorcerer Helper addon I have updated to work on current ESO1 -
Jodynn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Lulz.
You can't have your cake and eat it, too. You're going to have to choose between high output but low sustain, or a more balanced sustain build.
And for the record, heavy attacks are just fine. If you build for them and incorporate them into your rotation (like a well-designed HA build will) then you won't need to use either recovery glyphs or a sustain set. Heavy attacks do damage AND restore resources.
Y'all only think they're "sooooooo booooooring" because that's what you've been told to think.
YMMV.
I think for myself
Heavy attacks are boring because taking 3 seconds to channel something is grating in a fast combat scenario, as I stated it is fine sometimes in PvP although the channel is still too long.
You can't say heavy attacks are fine glossing over the points I made by just saying whatever reverberating nonsense you think.Current end game content damage in PvE is already severally down by around 80% this patch you would be further reducing it thus making some content unachievable.
Lmao it's down like 20% max.
I meant down to 80%, sorry.SidraWillowsky wrote: »brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »Current end game content damage in PvE is already severally down by around 80% this patch you would be further reducing it thus making some content unachievable.
My DPS is down quite a bit across the board if I look at my DPS numbers in 5.2 compared to 5.1 on the 6 mil. For me, the 6 mil is reflective of the numbers I pull in dungeons and trials, so that's my personal metric:
Magden (main): 48k in 5.2.3, down from 52k in 5.1: (48-52)/52 = about an 8% decrease
Stamblade: 41k in 5.2.3, down from 48k in 5.1: (41-48)/48 = about a 15% decrease
Magblade: 43k in 5.2.3, down from 48k in 5.1: (43-48)/48 = about a 10% decrease
But wait...I feel like the DPS numbers in 5.1 were wildly high relative to the changes in DPS I've seen since I started playing in July of 2018 (not a super long time, but long enough to observe trends). How do things in 5.2 compare to Elsweyr (was it 5.0?)?
Magden: 48k in 5.2, up from 43k in 5.0: (48-43)/43 = about a 12% increase
Magblade: 43k in 5.2, up from 40k in 5.0: (43-40)/40 = about an 8% increase
My stamblade is the only one suffering, though this also reflects the fact that I switched to magden full-time right before Elsweyr hit, so I'm not great with the current meta rotations: 41k in 5.2, down from 45k in 5.0: (41-45)/45 = about a 9% decrease.
I'm not actually having super terrible sustain issues in 5.2 on any of the above classes. It's actually a relief on the magden- on live I don't have room on my bars to run Netch or Inner Light or even Elemental Drain when I parse, so I HAVE to wear False God's. Not to mention the chaos of casting shalks in between trying to keep up wall of elements, destructive reach, fetcher infection, degeneration, soul trap, scalding rune, and barbed trap/channeled acceleration. Now I can run Netch and have been able to drop rune, reach, degen, and soul trap.
On my nightblades I run siphoning or leeching strikes.
My mag toons are faring better than the stam toons though; I usually hit a LA/second ratio of close to .9, so that helps with mag return. I'm a lot less comfortable weaving using melee weaps, so I feel the sustain a bit more there.
I don't really play any of the classes infamous for sustain issues, so I'm probably missing things...
That would be fine if new content was scaled to old dps but as I mentioned new content is scaled to the higher dps output.Jodynn PC NA
PvE and PvP MagDK
The lack of communication from ZOS to player speaks volumes.0 -
Jodynn✭✭✭✭✭
✭sustain sets are an issue due to the fact that you need more damage output to deal with the higher need of damage in situations that are now created by inflated dps.Edited by Jodynn on October 16, 2019 3:12PMJodynn PC NA
PvE and PvP MagDK
The lack of communication from ZOS to player speaks volumes.1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭What makes this thread 'official'?
That was my first thought.brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »- Current end game content damage in PvE is already severally down by around 80% this patch you would be further reducing it thus making some content unachievable.
I would like to see where OP is getting these numbers because I have not seen anything suggesting PTS dps is a mere 1/5 what it is on Live. A large number of player would find overland to challenging If OP was correct.
Does not look very official to me. Not even well informed.
A slight reduction in DPS is not a bad idea as we have seen DPS double in the past couple years due to power creep.1 -
Jodynn✭✭✭✭✭
✭I made a typo
it's down to 80% Edited by Jodynn on October 16, 2019 3:17PMJodynn PC NA
PvE and PvP MagDK
The lack of communication from ZOS to player speaks volumes.0 -
Jodynn✭✭✭✭✭
✭What makes this thread 'official'?
That was my first thought.brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »- Current end game content damage in PvE is already severally down by around 80% this patch you would be further reducing it thus making some content unachievable.
I would like to see where OP is getting these numbers because I have not seen anything suggesting PTS dps is a mere 1/5 what it is on Live. A large number of player would find overland to challenging If OP was correct.
Does not look very official to me. Not even well informed.
A slight reduction in DPS is not a bad idea as we have seen DPS double in the past couple years due to power creep.
Then you also need to reduce the dps needed in newer trials and dungeons.
With power creep it comes both sides, old content gets easier, new content gets harder, if you "balance" one, you need to balance the other, and they are only nerfing the side of us, which makes us feel weaker and less content.Jodynn PC NA
PvE and PvP MagDK
The lack of communication from ZOS to player speaks volumes.1 -
Jodynn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Also the numbers are from my own extensive testing, I was doing 100k, now I'm doing 84k, so I guess exactly it is 84%, I tested several builds and this was relatively the same around 200 dps in the best parses the average was closer to 83k, so 83% average.Jodynn PC NA
PvE and PvP MagDK
The lack of communication from ZOS to player speaks volumes.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »I made a typo it's down to 80%
Still, back up your words. You went to all that trouble to label this thread "official" yet you are merely spouting opinion. Also, edit the OP.
Besides, even if you are correct, with the huge power creep we have seen over the past few years I see nothing wrong with it being dialed back a small amount. It has to be corrected one way or another. That is either our actual DPS is reduced or the challenge of all content is increased.1 -
Jodynn✭✭✭✭✭
✭brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »I made a typo it's down to 80%
Still, back up your words. You went to all that trouble to label this thread "official" yet you are merely spouting opinion. Also, edit the OP.
Besides, even if you are correct, with the huge power creep we have seen over the past few years I see nothing wrong with it being dialed back a small amount. It has to be corrected one way or another. That is either our actual DPS is reduced or the challenge of all content is increased.
Go get godslayer on Live, and see how impossible that is without a group of stamcros ( which btw is depressing enough by itself having to limit to one class ), then take a nerf of damage and stamcro cycling of the ultimate.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/496918/v5-2-3-combat-report#latest
Among with the other numbers travelling around and what people post it's not hard to do a little research but fair point.
Jodynn PC NA
PvE and PvP MagDK
The lack of communication from ZOS to player speaks volumes.0 -
SidraWillowsky✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »That would be fine if new content was scaled to old dps but as I mentioned new content is scaled to the higher dps output.
But aside from Godslayer, what content can't be completed with 40k DPS?
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idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »Also the numbers are from my own extensive testing, I was doing 100k, now I'm doing 84k, so I guess exactly it is 84%, I tested several builds and this was relatively the same around 200 dps in the best parses the average was closer to 83k, so 83% average.
Good. But just saying so is pretty empty. Post SS of your parses.
Also, while one or two instances could be dialed back a small amount to compensate, most trials and dungeons can be left alone. Heck, Suspire is about the only trial that might need adjustment.
Yes, if DPS does decrease there will be some that cannot clear older trials they have been clearing. The players that fit into that boat are clearing those trials only because of power creep. Heck, vMA is so much easier today than a couple years ago due to power creep.0 -
Jodynn✭✭✭✭✭
✭brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »Also the numbers are from my own extensive testing, I was doing 100k, now I'm doing 84k, so I guess exactly it is 84%, I tested several builds and this was relatively the same around 200 dps in the best parses the average was closer to 83k, so 83% average.
Good. But just saying so is pretty empty. Post SS of your parses.
Also, while one or two instances could be dialed back a small amount to compensate, most trials and dungeons can be left alone. Heck, Suspire is about the only trial that might need adjustment.
Yes, if DPS does decrease there will be some that cannot clear older trials they have been clearing. The players that fit into that boat are clearing those trials only because of power creep. Heck, vMA is so much easier today than a couple years ago due to power creep.
I will agree that power creep is an issue, I did flawless vMA with my only heal burning embers and blood altar ( i was farming an ele succ staff and start trying weird stuff bored around my 40th run ); but unless they scale the content it will feel like getting hit with a rock which then weighs you done making you sluggish; adapt and overcome but my rotation this final patch is boring and uninspiring.
It's not challenging
It's not even fun
It's not dynamic or interesting
It's not even flexible as only one build is really viable for maxium dps output which is less than other classes literally because of their damage type ( dd vs dot ) or passives
It doesn't require much skill other than timing spell symmetry which is rudimentary.
But sustain is a fish always worth frying and is an issue.Jodynn PC NA
PvE and PvP MagDK
The lack of communication from ZOS to player speaks volumes.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »Also the numbers are from my own extensive testing, I was doing 100k, now I'm doing 84k, so I guess exactly it is 84%, I tested several builds and this was relatively the same around 200 dps in the best parses the average was closer to 83k, so 83% average.
Good. But just saying so is pretty empty. Post SS of your parses.
Also, while one or two instances could be dialed back a small amount to compensate, most trials and dungeons can be left alone. Heck, Suspire is about the only trial that might need adjustment.
Yes, if DPS does decrease there will be some that cannot clear older trials they have been clearing. The players that fit into that boat are clearing those trials only because of power creep. Heck, vMA is so much easier today than a couple years ago due to power creep.
I will agree that power creep is an issue, I did flawless vMA with my only heal burning embers and blood altar ( i was farming an ele succ staff and start trying weird stuff bored around my 40th run ); but unless they scale the content it will feel like getting hit with a rock which then weighs you done making you sluggish; adapt and overcome but my rotation this final patch is boring and uninspiring.
It's not challenging
It's not even fun
It's not dynamic or interesting
It's not even flexible as only one build is really viable for maxium dps output which is less than other classes literally because of their damage type ( dd vs dot ) or passives
It doesn't require much skill other than timing spell symmetry which is rudimentary.
But sustain is a fish always worth frying and is an issue.
I merely used vMA as an example. And of course it is not a challenge anymore but at one point you did find it a challenge as I seriously doubt you one shot everything you first time in there if you were clearing it when it was new. Most extremely skilled players took a long time and many tries before the got their first clear.
Most content does not need to be adjusted at all if Zos actually does scale back DPS by 20% as most of the content came out when top DPS was below that threshold.
Regardless, it does not seem your thread will become official. As I pointed out earlier you are merely spouting off your opinion and expect people to take it as fact. Since this thread has had so little interest it seems most see right through it. If you want to be taken seriously then you need to get serious about what you try to present.0 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭tldr as long as gaining sustain means sacrificing damage people arent gonna do it resulting in complains about sustain2 -
JAwtunes✭✭✭✭
Yep, nailed it.tldr as long as gaining sustain means sacrificing damage people arent gonna do it resulting in complains about sustain
This is my favourite bit ^^brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »Here are my arguments as to why the current system is flawed
resource glyphs/cost reduction glyphs and sustain sets
- No one wants to deal less damage if possible0 -
Bladerunner1✭✭✭✭brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »Here are my arguments as to why the current system is flawed
resource glyphs/cost reduction glyphs and sustain sets
- No one wants to deal less damage if possible
Legend has it that each time an orc slots a regen glyph, somewhere far away a Bosmer will sneeze and lose one point of cute.Edited by Bladerunner1 on October 16, 2019 9:00PM1
