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Official Discussion Thread for "Developer Deep Dive – Let’s Talk About Class Identity in ESO"

  • Faulgor
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    As others have said, for stam sorc one of my favorite skills is Hurricane. I love how it looks, I love how it sounds, I love how it feels.

    Funny, I absolutely despise how Hurricane looks. It completely obscures your character, which depending on the environment makes it impossible to see other particle effects. Not to mention it renders the Fashion Scrolls endgame useless because you never see your character in combat.
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  • KappaKid83
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    The_Lex wrote: »
    Agreed. Interesting that they posted it on the website and not the forums. They won't engage people who will: (1) challenge their views, and (2) know how to play the game better than they do.

    Actually, it's quite the opposite. We chose to post this on the website because it gets significantly more views than the forums and our goal here was to try and get this message out to a wide audience. It also allows us to put out the message in more than just English.

    Is there a reason you didn't post in both areas?
  • Rake
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    Hope sDK indentity wont be lazy stone throw in the end.
  • ZOS_JesC
    ZOS_JesC
    admin
    Greetings, we've removed a handful of nonconstructive and bashing comments. This is a friendly reminder that comments need to remain constructive and on topic. While we understand not everyone will always agree, we fully expect comments to be free of insults and inappropriate language. Thank you for your understanding.
    Edited by ZOS_JesC on September 26, 2019 4:45PM
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    Staff Post
  • Hashtag_
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    My favorite part of this piece is the author's correct usage of the terms "viable" and "optimal".

    PvE endgame/trial snobs must be so triggered at the suggestion that optimal and viable are NOT the same thing!

    It doesn’t matter what they say. People with viable skills and gear won’t get in over people with optimal skills and gear.

    Not every player needs to be able to complete everything. But hey get everyone a participation trophy!!!
  • Sanguinor2
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    My favorite part of this piece is the author's correct usage of the terms "viable" and "optimal".

    PvE endgame/trial snobs must be so triggered at the suggestion that optimal and viable are NOT the same thing!

    Eh, we know that those 2 are not the same, thats why we wont take viable specs into optimized Groups.
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  • Eweroun
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    it's fair and simple.. there will always be one class the best in a certain role, and the other will be better in another role...
    does this mean the other classes can't fulfill that role? off course not... Someone/something is always the best..
    if it wouldn't be that way...why creating multiple classes...

    If I want a templar tank, then I play a templar tank and I use it when I want / can use it... Will I be able to use it for everything I want? probably not... same as IRL.. if I would - let's say "love to wear a black metal T-shirt every day"... Can I do that? off course, but people would probably look in a weird way if I wear that on a wedding...

    choices have consequences...

    I think it's great the dev team is going to make work of class identity and it won't be an easy job. Fit in all the skill trees and find a balance.. I would say, "we have 10 skills to slot, 2 ultimates and the option of 2 different weapons to equip.. I would find it very balanced and good to have 6 class skills and 6 other skills..."

    This would give the opportunity to everyone to show their class identity and still be different from each other by using other skills from mages guild, fighters guild, undaunted,...

    And yes, there will be "BiS builds" and "good builds" , "decent builds" and "meh-builds".. Not to forget that stamina bow-bowsmer RP build... That's all fine and great to see... People should just accept that "your build" might not be the best build. But that doesn't mean you can come over to the forum and start QQ about everything that's changing.

    I'll give the dev's a chance and will see what they're going to make of their vision.
    In the meantime...
    let's end with some dots. .... .. .. .. .. . . .. .. ... .. ... .. ... (great rotation ;) )
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  • Nepenthe
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    Faulgor wrote: »
    I find it very interesting which image they chose to use to illustrate Power Fantasy for Dragonknights

    The Dragonknight brings flame and fury

    Truly? When was the last time you saw a stamina DK using Molten Weapons? I agree that it would be a cool power fantasy, indeed it was back when Heavy Attacks were still used for damage, but that was a long, long time ago. Molten Armaments never got overhauled when Light Attacks were buffed and Heavy Attacks nerfed, unlike Sorcerers' Bound Armaments, which used to buff HAs as well.

    There seems to be a disconnect between the power fantasy and the actual play patterns here.

    It's not really a power fantasy when there's no power in it, right?

    Totally agree, here. Just off the top of my head it would be cool to see some kind of DK passive in the Ardent Flame tree that improves Stam DK scaling of Fire damage. Say, "Your Weapon Damage and Physical Penetration apply to Fire damage you deal". THAT would make a nice niche for Stam DKs. Red mountain would get even better, we'd see more Valkyn Skoria and Grothdarr on Stam DKs (Even though Xynode runs Valkyn and Red mountain already on one of his builds, it would be even better).
    SipofMaim wrote: »
    We need another magicka weapon option, or every class needs more skills, or all the skills need more morphs..

    I agree so much with this. It's gotta be difficult, though, with ES games not using magical foci much outside of allowing the untrained to use magical items to cast spells. I don't envy the task of thinking up another magical weapon line. I'm not a lore buff, though, so I could be wrong.
    ...For example, I might give feedback on my beloved Stam Sorc. Speaking for myself, my Power Fantasy for Stam Sorc is the skill Hurricane. My Stam Sorcs are arcane warriors who summon the power of hurricane force winds to rip their enemies apart alongside their blades. That creates a Play Pattern that is heavily focused on AOE damage, and which relied on dual wield, bow, and Caltrops to make up for the lack of stam skills in my class toolkit.

    However, its clear that ZOS thinks one of the Power Fantasies of Sorcerer is "Summoning Pets". So they chose to try to change the Play Pattern of Stam Sorc by giving them a Stamina Clannfear.

    From my perspective, a Stam Clannfear doesnt match my Power Fantasy nor my Play Pattern, so it "feels" like a "useless" change to me. (Other players who like pets may obviously feel differently.)

    I suspect there's a similar thing going on with StamDKs and Stonefist right now. Many StamDK players think a stamina whip would fit their Power Fantasy and Play Pattern better than Stonefist. ZOS sees Stonefist as drawing from the Earth Power Fantasy of DKs in general and giving a good spammable option for StamDKs. Again, disconnect.

    I agree with all of this. Power fantasy is subjective and that makes it a real bear of a problem. Focus on one fantasy, and the people who don't hold that fantasy feel hung out to dry. Have a more broad approach, and you are likely to please no one. I hold something similar to your fantasy for Stam Sorcs. I see them as a whirling dervish spellsword - lots of AoE and engaging multiple targets. Perhaps to differentiate the Bound Armaments proc from Grim Focus, make the bound armaments proc an AoE attack instead? Say, the bound daggers stab all enemies within 6 meters once for each charge (up to 4 charges)?
  • NBrookus
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    KappaKid83 wrote: »
    The_Lex wrote: »
    Agreed. Interesting that they posted it on the website and not the forums. They won't engage people who will: (1) challenge their views, and (2) know how to play the game better than they do.

    Actually, it's quite the opposite. We chose to post this on the website because it gets significantly more views than the forums and our goal here was to try and get this message out to a wide audience. It also allows us to put out the message in more than just English.

    Is there a reason you didn't post in both areas?

    They did. This is an official thread that shows up in the Dev Tracker.
    PC NA
    Breton Magicka Sorcerer, Breton Magicka Templar, Dunmer Magicka DK, Bosmer Stamina NB, Nord Stamina Warden, Redguard Stamina Necro
    Dunmer Magicka DK, Argonian Magicka Templar, Altmer Magicka NB, Breton Magicka Sorcerer, Orc Stamina Warden
    Dunmer Magicka DK, Argonian Magicka Templar, Altmer Magicka Sorcerer
  • aaylas
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    Devs,

    While you are figuring this out, can you expedite making achievements account wide, especially when you have some achievements tuned to stacking 8 necros on DPS?
  • React
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    Eso; Play how you want! Unless you want to play PvP. Then your options are to play in unplayable lag, while enduring NUMEROUS combat related bugs that have been in the game for years and get worse with every patch. Or you can take a trip to battlegrounds, where if you play at a high level or just for a long enough period of time, you'll be punished rewarded with a longer queue time and placement onto teams of solo-queued inexperienced players versus coordinated teams of 3-4. Tired of battlegrounds? Try dueling! Our game is perfectly balanced, so there is no clear victor ever when it comes to one on one combat. However if you're dueling on console, be sure to do it in the privacy of your house because if you try to duel in the major cities where people gather to duel, you'll lag and freeze for the first 30 seconds. That's a feature we added this previous patch!
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  • BigBragg
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    Issues raised by the community before the skill audit ever started, only became exacerbated by the process. It's great that they put out a nice word salad for us, but it really only says some basic things about the topic. It offers nothing about its future, other than they are aware the community is talking about it and on a surface level agree. How they plan to tackle the issue will be very important. Hopefully they can find some more tools to use beside the extreme swinging pendulum and ban hammer.
  • JadonSky
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    idk I get the direction but with the constant changes every patch, especially when their major nurf and playstyle changes. Its ruining the experience for both vet and new players. DOTs are about to be in the worst place they have ever been, some of the changes just make no since to anyone, like entropy why remove major sorcery from all but one morph. I mean this was my primary way of getting major sorcery as a Templar now I have to resort to expensive crafting of pots constantly to get a buff that every other class has and to a skill no one has complained about expect for when you buff DOTs to OP level last patch.

    Would be nice to know the expected DPS output you expect any player to achieve to complete content then the expected MAX DPS to maybe help understand why your nurfing things to the ground.

  • VaranisArano
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    Now if I may be so bold as to offer a suggestion to the relevant team who posts these Official Discussion Threads?

    Something that might help with views on the forums is to sticky Official Discussion Threads like this for a brief time, when you really want players to see them. Its very easy to miss announcements like this if they get buried under Recent Discussions or if players don't regularly check the Official Announcement forum. It also helps players find it as the main discussion thread once we inevitably spiral into other threads talking about different aspects of it.

    As an example of what I like to see, the Official Discussion Thread for ESO's Performance Plan is currently stickied at the top of Recent Discussions. That's extrenely beneficial to me since I can easily find the article and reference it quickly for whatever I need to know or to link others to it.

    Now, I realize that threads like this one aren't quite of the same ongoing nature as the Performance Plans one. That's why I'd suggest sticking the thread near the top for a couple days.

    This would also be very beneficial during Events so that players who come to the forums during Events can easily find the official information and leave feedback/ask for help as needed.

    Thank you for your consideration.

    This is a very reasonable suggestion, Varanis, thank you. We do try to be conscientious about not having too many sticky threads, but I think what you suggested - having important ones for a short while - is doable. (Also, done. :))

    Thank you!
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