CP Rework: Remove Combat Passives, Add QoL Perks

Kel · July 2019

The day ESO becomes a gear treadmill just like every other mmo on the market is the day I quit. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Absolutely DO NOT want gear tied to progression. By all means, go play WoW or FFXIV.

almightyalfo · July 2019

I don't want to be rude or anything, but this thread is pointless and helluva stupid.

xbangax · July 2019

I'm gonna have to disagree. I would stop playing if these sorts of changes were to happen.

therift · July 2019

Kel wrote: »

The day ESO becomes a gear treadmill just like every other mmo on the market is the day I quit. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Absolutely DO NOT want gear tied to progression. By all means, go play WoW or FFXIV.

Agree and worth repeating

rotaugen454 · July 2019

The elite groups will still demand a DPS parse, unless you are talking PUGs.

Ardaghion · July 2019

Kel wrote: »

The day ESO becomes a gear treadmill just like every other mmo on the market is the day I quit. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Absolutely DO NOT want gear tied to progression. By all means, go play WoW or FFXIV.

That's why I left Destiny. I got sick of grinding out strikes to get the best pre-raid gear, only to get into a raid, then grind the raid to get the best raid gear. Then the next raid comes and you get back on the treadmill. Then to have it all taken away or have the "light level" reset.

Commancho · July 2019

Pls go back to your cave with such a stupid ideas. Most of player base will never acomplish big part of veteran content and you are talking about going back to "near-mortal levels". If you have few thousands hours in the game and competitive team then you are in vast miniority and it doesn't matter what changes ZOS will perform game will not be a challange for you because you will always adapt to any changes they can throw at you. At this point you will just increase a gap between good players and bad players. Game itself will turn into farming gear simulator. Any slight changes to sets will have huge impact on the balance. Many unique builds will die and everything will be about meta gear. Alot of players will lose motivation to rank up and login regulary in the game. There is no challange in ESO? Show me video of you completing vCR+3 HM.

Heyodude · July 2019

theres zero reasons why you would focus solely on role play or QoL buffs for an endgame progression, that is unless you wanted your game to be bad. It would be simpler to just delete the cp tree all together if the benefits it would confer are purely QoL or niche roleplay adavantages.

You wouldnt take the time to code those things, you would lose money because those ideas are essentially pointless.

KappaKid83 · July 2019

Vercingetorix wrote: »

KappaKid83 wrote: »

Vercingetorix wrote: »

KappaKid83 wrote: »

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Since gear is currently tied to CP, gear would be need to be re-scaled to cap at level 50. That is, any gear that is CP 10-160 would be converted to level 50. Champion points would no longer exist on gear. Most CP crafting mats would be be retired, with CP160 mats being scaled as the new "level 50" mat. Legacy mats can be sold by vets to vendors for some gold and the non-legacy mats that remain can continue to have use to you.

I think that Champion Points can exist, but can only confer strictly non-combat bonuses like "harvest node bonus" or "reduced armor repair cost".
The goal would be to remove and replace:
- damage buffs that are present in the blue trees
- sustain buffs/debuffs in the green trees
- defense buffs in the red trees
(Yes, I am aware of the fact that this basically means nearly every CP node gets replaced. If anything, this highlights the power creep issue in ESO.)

By getting rid of these CP combat bonuses, the dps and survival of players will be decreased back to near-mortal levels, encouraging different gear sets for survival or damage. For example, Impregnable Armor set will have a lot more value when players can no longer stack Resistant in the Steed tree, so a trade-off between damage and defense will have to be made! DPS players will likely have to consider a sustain set instead of only stacking damage if they want to be relevant in longer boss fights. This would be a healthy change for both PvE and PvP. Some trials may need some of their encounters re-tooled in order to account for the sudden loss of power among players, but that would be it.

Replacement nodes can focus on QoL improvements that a veteran of the game can appreciate and a newcomer can be encouraged to get.
Here's some examples:
- % increased gold from quests
- % chance to ignore armor damage upon death
- % increased movement speed while outside of combat
- very small % chance for an improvement mat (Wax, Temp, Rosin, Plating) to drop from a resource node
- very small % chance for double loot from killing a dungeon or trial monster (includes bosses)

In these examples, some of the more lucrative nodes would be put in the same tree so players have to make a meaningful trade-off with a limited number of points to spend. Even if you disagree with these specific node suggestions, that's ok because the focus here is to change the nodes in a way that is engaging and useful to the player without directly improving their damage or defenses. The end result is that CP rank should indicate dedication and time put into the game - NOT your power level, no matter what aspect of the game you play.

So what you are proposing makes all PvP No-CP at this point? I think a better rework for the system would be to do away with the .09% stuff(like having 23.09% more in a certain tree) and make point nodes be .125 or .25% per point thus eliminating most of the inane small percentage points that getting rounded to flat numbers anyways.

In effect, yes - all of ESO (including PvP) would be non-CP, in terms of damage buffs. You've bee accustomed to the damage that CP provides, but in time you will adjust for the damage it gave you, realize that it carried your build in ways that will shock you, and end up being a better player without those buffs.

But what if I have run No-CP campaigns for PVP and am accustomed to what a lower damage amount looks like? I guess to me No-CP basically caters to builds that can stack regen and still do damage, which have historically been Stam only. It would be a daunting task to have to rework nearly everything in game to balance Mag and Stam to be even. I like the thought process and applaud the effort into your post, I just don't see it as feasible.

As I said in my opening post, I am open to other suggestions but one thing we can all agree on is that the current system as it is now is BAD. A transition to a non-damage focus with CP would never be a single patch - we both know this. What we should do is identify the problem areas that arise from a CP change and to make sure that those issues are addressed. I think overall the CP system needs to shift away from combat buffs that are largely unneeded anyway (this is evident if you play enough non-CP PvP).

I can get on board with this. I think in your opening post those unlock nodes you proposed are really niche and would not be for everyone. I think getting rid of the system entirely is a better option but then how do you reward people for grinding CP? It is just a really complicated system we are dealing with. I mean you already get some sort of passive from unlocking enough points in certain trees that fulfill your proposition(treasure hunter just to name one). The move from vet levels to CP was relatively easy due to the VR16 = CP160 but going from CP 810 down, how do we accomplish that without alienating the longtime players ya know. It is all a slippery slope and not going to be an easy one to navigate.

Commancho · September 2019

Hey OP, looking at your recent posts I think that game is not too easy for you anymore.

Deathlord92 · September 2019

Terrible idea.

richo262 · September 2019

This game is in need of a gold sink, not an increase.

They should remove Poison reagents and the requirement for, most ingredients for poisons are gooey enough. Have poisons scale at any level up to the level the crafter had in Alchemy. Max level alchemy : 1 - CP150.

They should also make standard pots a memento and standard poisons no longer drop.

That would be a start to lowering the trash income. Other things

a ) Merge Ornate and Intricate into 1 item, where the player has to choose to Decon for XP or sell for gold.
b ) Remove certain junk items that have a replacement - ie Foul Pelt now has a Clean Pelt. Just have 'Pelt' that can be sold for the price of a Foul Pelt but is used in crafting. It would be a cleaner design and actually put the player in the spot of either selling the item or using the item.

After the performance phase of patches are done I really hope ZOS revamps the items in the game, so many are junk and have little or no purpose that could be handled in a better way. Jejota? WTF. Ta - Dailies, Denata - Furniture/Leveling enchanting, Rekuta - Master Writs / Furniture / Leveling Enchanting, Kuta - BIS. Jejota has no function other than a few furniture recipes that could be handled by Denata. Jejota should be removed and Ta should be Green. All Ta/Jejota in craft bags merged into Green Ta.

Anyway, I could rant on, but the point I'm making is. This game has so many gold sources, and gold is easy to come by. They even give out 100k gold sometimes simply for logging in. Increasing the amount dropped just devalues it.

Dark_Lord_Kuro · September 2019

What would be the point of progressing if our character dont become stronger? Its kind of the point of a progression system

Also i think we can say cp werent responsible for all the nerf (at least not fully) with the pts u24 patch note

Girl_Number8 · September 2019

almightyalfo wrote: »

I don't want to be rude or anything, but this thread is pointless and helluva stupid.

Lol, this^ and it is so polite

Alienoutlaw · September 2019

so many words so little sense
BG's are non-cp
PvP has non-cp options
if you want to not use CP then simple strip them out and dont use them

i did giggle ALOT ty

barney2525 · September 2019

Lemme get this straight.

In the same breath that Multiple other threads have come out regarding the Nerfing of the skills in the game.... and the anger and frustration that is being heard because the characters are suddenly being weakened....

you advocate that they Further weaken all combat for the characters, by taking away the CP that many players have worked months and years to attain. This should go over well with the masses.

additionally, IMHO, deciding For all other players that Your Opinion of what CP rank should indicate IS what the goal of CP actually is, is beyond arrogance.

Quite frankly, IMHO, your final sentence is completely wrong. CP should indicate All aspects of the game you have been dedicated to, Including power level.

IMHO

Jeremy · September 2019

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Since gear is currently tied to CP, gear would be need to be re-scaled to cap at level 50. That is, any gear that is CP 10-160 would be converted to level 50. Champion points would no longer exist on gear. Most CP crafting mats would be be retired, with CP160 mats being scaled as the new "level 50" mat. Legacy mats can be sold by vets to vendors for some gold and the non-legacy mats that remain can continue to have use to you.

I think that Champion Points can exist, but can only confer strictly non-combat bonuses like "harvest node bonus" or "reduced armor repair cost".
The goal would be to remove and replace:
- damage buffs that are present in the blue trees
- sustain buffs/debuffs in the green trees
- defense buffs in the red trees
(Yes, I am aware of the fact that this basically means nearly every CP node gets replaced. If anything, this highlights the power creep issue in ESO.)

By getting rid of these CP combat bonuses, the dps and survival of players will be decreased back to near-mortal levels, encouraging different gear sets for survival or damage. For example, Impregnable Armor set will have a lot more value when players can no longer stack Resistant in the Steed tree, so a trade-off between damage and defense will have to be made! DPS players will likely have to consider a sustain set instead of only stacking damage if they want to be relevant in longer boss fights. This would be a healthy change for both PvE and PvP. Some trials may need some of their encounters re-tooled in order to account for the sudden loss of power among players, but that would be it.

Replacement nodes can focus on QoL improvements that a veteran of the game can appreciate and a newcomer can be encouraged to get.
Here's some examples:
- % increased gold from quests
- % chance to ignore armor damage upon death
- % increased movement speed while outside of combat
- very small % chance for an improvement mat (Wax, Temp, Rosin, Plating) to drop from a resource node
- very small % chance for double loot from killing a dungeon or trial monster (includes bosses)

In these examples, some of the more lucrative nodes would be put in the same tree so players have to make a meaningful trade-off with a limited number of points to spend. Even if you disagree with these specific node suggestions, that's ok because the focus here is to change the nodes in a way that is engaging and useful to the player without directly improving their damage or defenses. The end result is that CP rank should indicate dedication and time put into the game - NOT your power level, no matter what aspect of the game you play.

Games need a sense of character progression or players will eventually get bored and move on. Though ESO has so much content - as well as a steady stream of new content - this is less of a problem on this game as with many others. It's scaled environments and wide variety of activities to choose from also help keep players busy and productive. But I still believe they need a champion system that reflects a sense of actual character advancement and not just combat neutral perks.

As far as PvP is concerned, there is always the option to participate in none CP PvP if you don't like the influence of Champion Points (that's what I do). So that concern has already been addressed by the developers. So getting rid of Champion Points to improve the "health" of PvP doesn't make any sense to me. It's a redundant proposal and does nothing but take options away from people and alienate those who do enjoy CP PVP for no logical reason that I can think of.

If I were in charge - the way I would approach the Champion Point system is allow players to choose specific abilities to improve. That way each player could focus on their favorite abilities and make them stronger. For example: Night Blades could spend points to add duration to Shadowy Disguise or improve the heal from Dark Cloak. Templars could spend points to increase the shield strength of Radiant Ward or the damage of Blazing shield etc. They could also opt to spend points to decrease the costs of abilities as well if they prefer.

I believe an approach like this would be a lot more interesting than general damage/defense/healing increases and lead to a greater variety of personalized character builds (a major strength of ESO and one they need to build on). The system could also function as a sort of class specialization system where players could focus on certain elements of their class to make them excel in a single skill line. Or they could mix and match them to get a hybrid effect if they wanted. The current Champion Point system is just kind of bland.

Araneae6537 · September 2019

Kel wrote: »

The day ESO becomes a gear treadmill just like every other mmo on the market is the day I quit. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Absolutely DO NOT want gear tied to progression. By all means, go play WoW or FFXIV.

Absolutely agree about no gear treadmill!!! That’s part of why ESO and GW2 are the only MMORPG’s I play. But that was not my understanding of what OP was suggesting. And of course vet dungeons and other endgame content would need to be scaled if anything like OP’s suggestion were implemented. I do think it’s a downside that right now CP can make overland content and quests a sleepwalk. I enjoy playing more when I have to have some care of enemies, at least to not aggro everything if I am alone, and group content is WAY more fun if we have to work together and I’m not just being carried along by high CP players.

Personally, I would like to see something in between what it is now and OP’s suggestion — most of it horizontal progression like some of the passives or extra non-combat abilities and QoL (as GW2 also has in their mastery system) with enough choices that everything should find options they would enjoy BUT also allow a significant boost to a very limited number (but with lots of choices) of combat abilities because I like the idea of being able to further customize how you want to play your character. Right now, it seems more an extension of leveling with obligatory buffs to resistances, recovery, etc. I would prefer to see options to make your character better at more specific things like more magic power or stealth sneak attacks or archery or resistance broadly (hope that makes sense and I’m sure there are categories I’ve not thought of and certainly there need to be good options for PvP and I know nothing about that). In other words, I don’t need my character to become some omnipotent immortal, but rather mortal in all aspects but wow, they are a magnificent archer or do devastating attacks from stealth (my main is a nightblade so these are just the options that come to my mind first that I would enjoy).

TL;DR Balance to level 50 and make CP combat options limited but meaningful and make the rest QoL and non-combat. These does NOT mean go to gear treadmill; I’d rather nothing change than go to that tiresome model.

MajBludd · September 2019

No, I dont want my progression to be tied to extra gold, etc. I want my progression to be tied to either more diversity for each class or as it is. Not a good idea, imo.

mairwen85 · September 2019

I've said it time and time again. The true power of CP is in the defensive stars, not the offensive ones -- all that mitigation and boosted survivability is the primary benefit of CP beyond 300. There have been may threads indicating what the actual contribution of CP is; I believe the result was a total of 10% dps increase beyond CP300 to max CP. That means that if you are doing 30K at CP300, you'll be doing approx 33K at 810 in the same gear. All the extras come from gear based progression. Gear trumps CP in this scenario, the combination is the power creep you're referencing, where gear is the primary culprit. This is why you can have super tanks with ridiculous damage in non-CP pvp.

CP is intended for use to plug holes in your build, to provide build diversity to offset gear -- the reality is that with any mathematically aligned system, there will always be an optimal algorithm. As with gear, there is an optimal configuration. Paired we identify a crystallized meta. The concept of CP is sound, the implementation is questionable and flawed, I don't disagree, but it is far from the silver bullet to roll back power creep.

I'd like to see a prestige system for class and role -- and more diversity in gear, putting the original CP concept into items instead of player bonuses.

Avrael · September 2019

Always was for at least making the max level for gear, consumables etc. Lv. 50 and seperate from CP. I understand the CP 160 gear was the old Veteran 16 gear, but come on... it wouldnt be a problem at all to scale it and make it normal 50, Veteran levels are gone for so long now, 80% of players now dont even know what those were. Also the weird level caps for things, gear is 160, but potions are CP 150, some food and drinks are Lv. 1 but scale to your level, and dont get me started on how useless every gear and glyph between CP 10-160 is.

They need to rework CP, but whatever they may do with it, it should be completley seperate from the normal levels and from gear imo.