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Should we "get rid of" tank & heal and use another system?

  • Fur_like_snow
    Fur_like_snow
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    Support fills that role of a tank and healer.
  • runkorkoeb17_ESO
    runkorkoeb17_ESO
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    Lyserus wrote: »
    This is going to be controversial, but hear me out

    1.Why we need this change
    a. There are so few of tank and heal.
    Even with the future performance improvement plan, I think we can all agree that it's not going to change the fact that DPS would need to queue for over 20 minutes and sometime would get a fake tank or heal after that. The current three role system simply doesn't work well
    b.They are quite bad in open world.
    I think this is also another reason why there are so few tank and heal, they simply are not "viable" outside of instanced content, to use them, you will need to grind levels and gears and only able to use them for queueing. They are weak when solo, and when they can't even carry themselves in "easy overland", you know it's bad. Also, It wouldn't be a problem had overland is harder and require cooperation, but we all know how overland is in ESO.
    c.They are making balancing hard
    Especially since ESO insist on balancing pvp and pve together. What maybe nice and balance in pve/pvp maybe way too broken for pvp/pve, and most of them are survival/heal sets. (Damage sets have this problem too, but they are rather easy to get spotted and re-balance)

    2.The new system and why it's better
    a.The new system:
    Players get to choose their preference role (not garanteeing you will get the role) when queueing for instanced content, and when a group is formed, players assigned to tank role and heal role will receive a tank/healing buff, making them more tanky/heal more in this instance (dungeon/trial/arena). Basically, this is the "battle spirit" of pve. And of couse, some of the tank gear and heal gear will need to adjusted.
    b.Why this is better
    First, the steps needed to adjust from a overland character to a tank/heal in dungeon is easier, since you will only need that instance buff and equip some different gear and skills, you don't need to completely rebuild your character just to be a tank/heal in normal/vanilla vet dungeons. (Of course tho for advanced contents some professional tank and heal build is still appreciated)
    Second, since your character can be adjusted easily to any of the three roles with the instance buff, your assigned role when you queue doesn't necessarily have to be the one you preferenced. It may create some confusion at first, but with time it will make player queueing easier and faster, and less stress for queue machine hamster.
    Also, your "tank" or "healer" won't be miserable in overland content, they can finally be free to explore, doing quests solo to build up their character lore etc.
    Finally, nerfing overpowered survival gear (be it tank or heal) will make it easier for ZOS to balance the game, no more undying characters in pvp

    There are so few tank and heals because everyone know that he can cheat the system and que/ withou punish/ for any of both rolles.
    Also real tank and healers /often/ wont que in lfg because they get pissed of fake tanks they need to heal or fake healers they need to rely to keep them alive.

    World performance is not a reason.
    Plenty of overland/dungeon/craftable dps sets thet can use as dps while doing ques.
    Every sword and board/ or healer build/ can push 15-20k dps without problem. So i dont see this as an excuse.
    We dont need new system. We need ZoS to punish ppl who abuse roles, or we need to start kick them ourself.
    For less than a month things will go to normal.

    A new system with the same players will be like wearing dirty clothes after taking a shower.
    Players need to change, not the system.
  • White wabbit
    White wabbit
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    idk wrote: »
    Normal dungeon queue should be listed as “3 DPS and 1 support”.

    There are players that actually need a tank and heals in many normal dungeons. Sadly.

    Sadly this is often too true and it’s not often low level players
  • Jeremy
    Jeremy
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    Lyserus wrote: »
    This is going to be controversial, but hear me out

    1.Why we need this change
    a. There are so few of tank and heal.
    Even with the future performance improvement plan, I think we can all agree that it's not going to change the fact that DPS would need to queue for over 20 minutes and sometime would get a fake tank or heal after that. The current three role system simply doesn't work well
    b.They are quite bad in open world.
    I think this is also another reason why there are so few tank and heal, they simply are not "viable" outside of instanced content, to use them, you will need to grind levels and gears and only able to use them for queueing. They are weak when solo, and when they can't even carry themselves in "easy overland", you know it's bad. Also, It wouldn't be a problem had overland is harder and require cooperation, but we all know how overland is in ESO.
    c.They are making balancing hard
    Especially since ESO insist on balancing pvp and pve together. What maybe nice and balance in pve/pvp maybe way too broken for pvp/pve, and most of them are survival/heal sets. (Damage sets have this problem too, but they are rather easy to get spotted and re-balance)

    2.The new system and why it's better
    a.The new system:
    Players get to choose their preference role (not garanteeing you will get the role) when queueing for instanced content, and when a group is formed, players assigned to tank role and heal role will receive a tank/healing buff, making them more tanky/heal more in this instance (dungeon/trial/arena). Basically, this is the "battle spirit" of pve. And of couse, some of the tank gear and heal gear will need to adjusted.
    b.Why this is better
    First, the steps needed to adjust from a overland character to a tank/heal in dungeon is easier, since you will only need that instance buff and equip some different gear and skills, you don't need to completely rebuild your character just to be a tank/heal in normal/vanilla vet dungeons. (Of course tho for advanced contents some professional tank and heal build is still appreciated)
    Second, since your character can be adjusted easily to any of the three roles with the instance buff, your assigned role when you queue doesn't necessarily have to be the one you preferenced. It may create some confusion at first, but with time it will make player queueing easier and faster, and less stress for queue machine hamster.
    Also, your "tank" or "healer" won't be miserable in overland content, they can finally be free to explore, doing quests solo to build up their character lore etc.
    Finally, nerfing overpowered survival gear (be it tank or heal) will make it easier for ZOS to balance the game, no more undying characters in pvp

    I'll never understand this argument that tanks or healers have such a hard time on this game's overland. Because that just hasn't been my experience - at all.

    You do not need to be offensive-oriented to slaughter enemies on this game's landscape. My tank for example can kill most of the enemies he encounters in a single rotation. With my healer it's even faster. Have you seen what actual DPS classes do to the overland? Instant kills. Anyone who is miserable in this game's overland content because they can't effectively kill anything as their healer or tank is doing something wrong and needs to adjust their abilities or something. That or they just have unrealistic expectations. So I don't find that the basis for your argument is a credible one.

    I also don't like the idea of giving players a "buff" to turn them into tanks and healers. That just sounds silly to me, especially considering you still expect them to change their gear and skills around (which is mostly what will determine your role anyway). And your argument that this would help them balance "overpowered survival gear" and"undying players"in PvP is unnecessary as neither of those things actually exist.

    I'm not opposed to giving players the ability to more easily access different builds. But your OP sounds like an elaborate request to simply make things easier for DPS queuing up as tanks by giving them some buff to boost their health and defenses inside dungeons and to help them kill players even faster in PvP (which is the last thing this game needs). So you can mark me down as a no on this one.
    Edited by Jeremy on September 11, 2019 6:22PM
  • Rungar
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    The dungeons is what needs to change and if they change the rest will change as well. These linear raid mechanic style dungeons are a turd and a waste of effort since horns of the reach.

    players are only interested if the mechanics are subtle like in the base game dungeons. i.e the raid mechanic model is a total failure.
    We shall know them by their works.
  • gatekeeper13
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    Some people already got rid of the "tank-heal" system by playing as fake tanks and fake healers. Tried to do veteran Falkreath Hold with a friend in the weekend and believe it or not, we got 3 fake healers (dd's) in a row. Not to speak about the dungeon pledges where this is becoming cancer...

    If people cant wait in queue, they should also try other roles. Its not the tanks nor the healers fault that everyone is making a dd character because it is "cooler".
    Edited by gatekeeper13 on September 11, 2019 7:01PM
  • iCaliban
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    Iskiab wrote: »
    Tanks do get rewarded, they have no wait times in dungeon queues in pve.

    Which means nothing. Cp cap players mostly dont run pug dungeons. IF they do use the group finder, its with a full group. Or on alt for leveling things. Once you have reached end game there is zero reason to use the group finder as a tank or healer, unless you have been very anti social and dont have a friends list and 5 guilds
  • MartiniDaniels
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    iCaliban wrote: »
    Iskiab wrote: »
    Tanks do get rewarded, they have no wait times in dungeon queues in pve.

    Which means nothing. Cp cap players mostly dont run pug dungeons. IF they do use the group finder, its with a full group. Or on alt for leveling things. Once you have reached end game there is zero reason to use the group finder as a tank or healer, unless you have been very anti social and dont have a friends list and 5 guilds

    Lol, so you think that to press one button for instant queue and complete pledge or 2 with pugs is longer then:
    a) broadcast to guild or 2 or whisper friends if they wanna do pledge
    b) wait until everybody re-logs to other toon
    c) wait until everybody got pledges
    d) listen how somebody taken yesterday's pledges and wants to complete them first. One person will remember that he have yesterday's pleges on other toon and re-log
    e) another person will remember that they need to level undaunted and will re-log again to *** new pvp alt with low dps and no proper gear...

    By the moment guild/friends group will gather, you will already complete those pledges on tank with pugs and if you got incompetent pug just wish them good luck and leave group. From my experience of pugging as tank, 90% of groups can complete non-DLC HM pledges just fine and with agreeable speed. vDLC with pugs is of course only for fun and amusement, chances to do vDLC HM with pugs are extremely low, maybe 5-10%.

    On the other hand, on dps toon, run with guildies/friends is the only proper way. Otherwise you may wait for an hour in queue and receive tank who can't survive WS1 last boss, not to mention vDLC where proper tank in pugs is rather rare sight..
    Restart your router
  • Dusk_Coven
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    Or make it easier for each toon to be able to switch to different roles.
    There are so many ways to implement this:
    -FFXIV lets you play multiple classes all on the same toon, and gives you the gear storage space to gear each one properly when you switch class/role. You can't switch once you're in a group instance, though.
    -DCUO uses a toggle to Tank Role or Controller Role or DPS Role or Healer Role. Each status comes with a set of buffs and debuffs. For example as a tank you do less damage than DPS but all your powers are taunts.
    -SWL lets you change your focus on a three-way slider between tank, heals, and dps.
    -NWO lets you have multiple skill/attribute/perk profiles.

    Alternate types of roles like Support (e.g., DCUO) and Controller (eg. NWO) can make things more interesting but we already have a balancing issue that's made just about impossible by ZOS's insistence on balancing for both PvE and PvP at the same time.
    If we're not careful, things could end up like NWO where for their raids, some groups just kick anyone who isn't a certain class because there's too much synergy from the correct class combination.
    Edited by Dusk_Coven on September 11, 2019 11:25PM
  • idk
    idk
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    Dusk_Coven wrote: »
    Or make it easier for each toon to be able to switch to different roles.
    There are so many ways to implement this:
    -FFXIV lets you play multiple classes all on the same toon, and gives you the gear storage space to gear each one properly when you switch class/role. You can't switch once you're in a group instance, though.
    -DCUO uses a toggle to Tank Role or Controller Role or DPS Role or Healer Role. Each status comes with a set of buffs and debuffs. For example as a tank you do less damage than DPS but all your powers are taunts.
    -SWL lets you change your focus on a three-way slider between tank, heals, and dps.
    -NWO lets you have multiple skill/attribute/perk profiles.

    Alternate types of roles like Support (e.g., DCUO) and Controller (eg. NWO) can make things more interesting but we already have a balancing issue that's made just about impossible by ZOS's insistence on balancing for both PvE and PvP at the same time.

    1. We can already have multiple roles. The only thing not easy to switch is CP but for dungeons that is hardly an issue.
    2. We can switch roles even in a dungeon which is a big plus over FF
    3. When we switch roles we get the appropriate buffs based on our build. Ofc, if it is just slotting a taunt to be a tank so you can still do good dps then that is a choice which makes ESO superior to DCUO

    Each game does it differently and I have yet to play an MMORPG that restricts all classes to only one role. That is hardly the issue in ESO. It is mostly an issue that some people do not want to be bothered with forming a group from guild or zone and tanks tend to avoid GF due to the horrid DPS we have found in random groups all to often.
    Really, idk
  • mikemacon
    mikemacon
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    No.
  • iCaliban
    iCaliban
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    iCaliban wrote: »
    Iskiab wrote: »
    Tanks do get rewarded, they have no wait times in dungeon queues in pve.

    Which means nothing. Cp cap players mostly dont run pug dungeons. IF they do use the group finder, its with a full group. Or on alt for leveling things. Once you have reached end game there is zero reason to use the group finder as a tank or healer, unless you have been very anti social and dont have a friends list and 5 guilds

    Lol, so you think that to press one button for instant queue and complete pledge or 2 with pugs is longer then:
    a) broadcast to guild or 2 or whisper friends if they wanna do pledge
    b) wait until everybody re-logs to other toon
    c) wait until everybody got pledges
    d) listen how somebody taken yesterday's pledges and wants to complete them first. One person will remember that he have yesterday's pleges on other toon and re-log
    e) another person will remember that they need to level undaunted and will re-log again to *** new pvp alt with low dps and no proper gear...

    By the moment guild/friends group will gather, you will already complete those pledges on tank with pugs and if you got incompetent pug just wish them good luck and leave group. From my experience of pugging as tank, 90% of groups can complete non-DLC HM pledges just fine and with agreeable speed. vDLC with pugs is of course only for fun and amusement, chances to do vDLC HM with pugs are extremely low, maybe 5-10%.

    On the other hand, on dps toon, run with guildies/friends is the only proper way. Otherwise you may wait for an hour in queue and receive tank who can't survive WS1 last boss, not to mention vDLC where proper tank in pugs is rather rare sight..

    Yes. I would never pug. I once got stuck in a 2.5 hour long City of ash 2. After that, the ten minutes or so spent pinging my trial guilds is nothing at all. And then you can grab two 50k+ dps and burn through pledges in 1/4 of the time.
  • Wrexsoul
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    Lyserus wrote: »
    b.They are quite bad in open world.
    I think this is also another reason why there are so few tank and heal, they simply are not "viable" outside of instanced content, to use them, you will need to grind levels and gears and only able to use them for queueing. They are weak when solo, and when they can't even carry themselves in "easy overland", you know it's bad. Also, It wouldn't be a problem had overland is harder and require cooperation, but we all know how overland is in ESO.

    My templar healer can solo (with healing gear/CP) most WBs and can solo the majority of dungeons on normal and a few on Vet. Like it isn't hard to spend a few skill points to grab a DPS skill/morph or two. I don't know what other healers are like but I'm sure they are more than "viable" outside of instances. Your hypothetical healers either doesn't really exist or need to learn how to play.
  • gangyzgirl
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    I have two toons that both main a tank and a healer and they’ve been able to do the overland and story content without issue. Maybe it takes a tad longer on the tank but it can still be done. I think people just need an incentive to play tanks and healers. I know I often don’t que and certainly not for vet dlcs due to bad experiences with low damage dps. Maybe if there was an added benefit to queuing up the que would be shorter since we aren’t taking the time to group with friends and guildies.
  • Hashtag_
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    Its why you level as a damage dealer then switch to tank once max level. Literally idiotic to try and level 3-50 as rank or healer.
  • White wabbit
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    Hashtag_ wrote: »
    Its why you level as a damage dealer then switch to tank once max level. Literally idiotic to try and level 3-50 as rank or healer.

    I must be an idiot as just did that on a necro but as it’s inky going to used for tanking it doesn’t need any other skills
  • Jeremy
    Jeremy
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    gangyzgirl wrote: »
    I have two toons that both main a tank and a healer and they’ve been able to do the overland and story content without issue. Maybe it takes a tad longer on the tank but it can still be done. I think people just need an incentive to play tanks and healers. I know I often don’t que and certainly not for vet dlcs due to bad experiences with low damage dps. Maybe if there was an added benefit to queuing up the que would be shorter since we aren’t taking the time to group with friends and guildies.

    Wow and Final Fantasy 14 do that - and give extra rewards for people who queue up as roles "in need". It works well. So I like your suggestion far better.
  • duddjoyri
    duddjoyri
    Soul Shriven
    As someone that's played a tank since I started ESO 15 months ago I really enjoy it. Generally I can survive overland content just fine until I want to actually kill something, then it all slows down a bit but it is generally doable.

    Personally I would settle for an easy way of switching between my Dungeon/Group 100% tank build, and a second more solo oriented build which is more compromised i.e. a bit more dps, a bit less tank. I'm quite happy to still be definitively a tank though. They could easily cap the number of times you could switch build each day without having to visit a shrine/pay more etc, and surely it wouldn't be hard for the system to remember a combined set of gear/skills/hotbar layout and allocate it player designated build.....They would be like outfits, only actually useful :D
    Edited by duddjoyri on September 12, 2019 3:13PM
  • thatlaurachick
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    FierceSam wrote: »
    I’d prefer more people to understand and play the roles of tank or healer... but there are no incentives to doing this.

    Currently you

    Don’t get rewarded for being a tank or healer in terms of either XP or actual rewards or achievements or titles or cosmetics

    And get penalized for achivements such as "kill X in PvP" because tanks and healers rarely get killing blows.
    Don’t have any easily recognisable stats to show how effective you were - so your heals and buffs/debuffs that benefit the group are effectively invisible to most DPS players - hence the widespread delusion that anyone can do these roles with no effort or that they aren’t required.

    Don’t have any way to measure your success or improvement over time so developing or improving the skills required is difficult

    Don’t have any in-game mechanism to practice or understand the healing or tank role - no tutorials or training dummies

    "how much health do you have" and "do you ahve the 2 meta sets" aren't actually a good metric for tanking. Same for healing. *ESPECIALLY* now that ZOS is moving towards "needing skillz" for these roles.
    Are massively penalised in solo overland/questing as tank and healer builds do not fit the ‘all content must be killed’ quest structure

    Not really surprising that so few players have the skills required to step up to these roles.... killing *** is the easy part of the game

    I wouldn't say massively penalized, you can complete content, it just takes a LOT longer and gets really, really, grindy.
    But the result is the same: why play the two roles that are A - more difficult (tanking is a LOT more than just standing there and taunting) B - have fewer rewards (loot in trials? I'm lucky if I get *1* set piece of ANY set per run) C - can't get certain achivements because we don't land killing blows (in that setup).

    So when are we going to make support roles better devs? Bsalance is hard, but everyone being DPS isn't the answer. I say this as a disabled player who has to use controller and the gimped gamepadUI (TARGET OUT OF RANGE omg it's right in front of me what are you saying) which means I can't animation cancel properly and really REALLY gimps me in PvP.
    Unfortunately Necessary Signature:

    MAX CP, played since beta, yes I know the game. Also worked in software dev/ops so yes, I know what I'm talking about.

    If you read this and rolled your eyes, maybe you need to stop assuming women don't know ***.
  • Mettaricana
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    Lyserus wrote: »
    This is going to be controversial, but hear me out

    1.Why we need this change
    a. There are so few of tank and heal.
    Even with the future performance improvement plan, I think we can all agree that it's not going to change the fact that DPS would need to queue for over 20 minutes and sometime would get a fake tank or heal after that. The current three role system simply doesn't work well
    b.They are quite bad in open world.
    I think this is also another reason why there are so few tank and heal, they simply are not "viable" outside of instanced content, to use them, you will need to grind levels and gears and only able to use them for queueing. They are weak when solo, and when they can't even carry themselves in "easy overland", you know it's bad. Also, It wouldn't be a problem had overland is harder and require cooperation, but we all know how overland is in ESO.
    c.They are making balancing hard
    Especially since ESO insist on balancing pvp and pve together. What maybe nice and balance in pve/pvp maybe way too broken for pvp/pve, and most of them are survival/heal sets. (Damage sets have this problem too, but they are rather easy to get spotted and re-balance)

    2.The new system and why it's better
    a.The new system:
    Players get to choose their preference role (not garanteeing you will get the role) when queueing for instanced content, and when a group is formed, players assigned to tank role and heal role will receive a tank/healing buff, making them more tanky/heal more in this instance (dungeon/trial/arena). Basically, this is the "battle spirit" of pve. And of couse, some of the tank gear and heal gear will need to adjusted.
    b.Why this is better
    First, the steps needed to adjust from a overland character to a tank/heal in dungeon is easier, since you will only need that instance buff and equip some different gear and skills, you don't need to completely rebuild your character just to be a tank/heal in normal/vanilla vet dungeons. (Of course tho for advanced contents some professional tank and heal build is still appreciated)
    Second, since your character can be adjusted easily to any of the three roles with the instance buff, your assigned role when you queue doesn't necessarily have to be the one you preferenced. It may create some confusion at first, but with time it will make player queueing easier and faster, and less stress for queue machine hamster.
    Also, your "tank" or "healer" won't be miserable in overland content, they can finally be free to explore, doing quests solo to build up their character lore etc.
    Finally, nerfing overpowered survival gear (be it tank or heal) will make it easier for ZOS to balance the game, no more undying characters in pvp

    Scrap the roles recently i been aying a ton of warframe and honestly there's tanky frames theres healing and support frames but all can be the dps and evade etc. Its like redo eso so rather than holy trinity just do a true play how ya want not need a heal tank etc just let us do it all at once and be what we want.
    I'm everything that doesn't belong in the pact but i'm there anyway...
  • Wayshuba
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    Wouldn't be a fan of a system like this.

    First, it would mean people who do not know how to tank or heal would end up going into roles they really don't know how to do.

    Second, as someone who mains a tank, I like that my queues are short because I have a real tank. Furthermore, being that I am a player who likes tanking and has done it in many MMOs I have become pretty good at it. I wouldn't want to see someone who selects a tank role for say a Vet Dungeon, just to speed up their queue but who really doesn't know what they are doing.

    As for overland content, it isn't that big a deal to partially respec. I simply change gear when soloing overland into a semi-StamDK DPS build. I don't even bother to change my CPs around nor is the build "trial/vet DLC" optimized for DPS (since he is a tank) but it works plenty fine for all overland content.
    Edited by Wayshuba on September 12, 2019 8:29PM
  • cyberjanet
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    Guild Wars 2 did that.
    Go play Guild Wars 2 and see if you like it.
    Favourite NPC: Wine-For-All
  • FrancisCrawford
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    Cost of respeccing -- to inflict "friction" -- is one of the worst universal MMO design ideas.
  • FrancisCrawford
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    iCaliban wrote: »
    Cp cap players mostly dont run pug dungeons.

    However, most players I see in dungeon PUGs are above 300 CP, and many are above 810 CP, as I am.
  • Wayshuba
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    cyberjanet wrote: »
    Guild Wars 2 did that.
    Go play Guild Wars 2 and see if you like it.

    Oh man, did that turn out to be a disaster. Now it went to meta on the best DPS in the game. So now you had just warriors in berserker armor with two-hand swords. Nothing else was wanted.

    Probably why they had dungeons in the initial launch and have done nothing with them since. And don't even get started on how boring their "raids" are.

    The trinity works in build a strategic approach to team-based gameplay. Otherwise, you just have chaos of DPS because nothing else is wanted.
  • Drako_Ei
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    The reason why there are so few tanks is because there are so many bad DPS queueing for veteran DLC.

    I have a tank, yolk/alkosh, he is gryphon heart, but i will never queue as tank because of many bad experiences with pugs.

    I would rather DPS and not spent 2 hours in a vet dlc with 2 dps hardcasting frags.

    Implement a DPS check before queueing for veteran DLC and i may start tanking for randoms again.

    There are a lot of good tanks in this game, they are just sick of playing with pugs.
  • Drako_Ei
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    Itzmichi wrote: »
    This would be just unbalanced and not very useful at all, its not like a proper tank or healer would need this kind of buffs. Most of the time im trying to avoid the GF because of bad DDs with group damage of 10k while im doing 35% of it on my tank.

    I rather would like to have a similar buff like we had when fighting molag bal for like 90% of the DDs queueing up as such.

    Exactly what i always say!

    Its the people's fault there are too few tanks queueing.

    Years of torturing the tanks with 5k group dps has caused this...
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