Detect Potions

fred4 · September 2019

jcm2606 wrote: »

Except most counters aren't that effective against a good Nightblade. Detection skills are super expensive, have a short duration, and have a very small radius (only 6 meters). Most AoE's are mid radius at best, so you're left spamming them in an area that the Nightblade probably left ages ago.

I feel that thinking about it that way is a trap that some players fall into.

(1) The radius of detection skills is almost irrelevant. Their use is not to detect nightblades. As you have noted, they are very bad at that. Their use is to prevent melee nightblades from cloaking when they are already in your face. Build them into your rotation or cast them strategically when the NB has taken some damage and is liable to cloak away, but before they do so.

(2) Yeah, don't spam AOEs when you can't see the NB. It's pointless. On the other hand, if you are a templar, here's a tip: Spam Jabs/Sweeps incessantly while you can still see the nightblade. If they get caught in the snare at the end of Sweeps, they're in trouble, unless they have a shade up. Don't be tempted to do anything more elaborate. Don't put Power of the Light on them. Just keep hammering them with Sweeps. It's so simple. You'll get many of the less capable nightblades that way.

If you can't see the nightblade, cast your buffs, shield, block, or meditate. They're in control of the fight. No point in raging against that. Use your time wisely. If in IC and you're low on resources, maybe heavy attack a mob. If you keep being hassled by a nightblade, your best bet is probably a detect potion, but only use that when you can see the nightblade already. It's not for detection. It's to prevent them from getting away. That's the general theme with all the detection methods. They're not there to find nightblades, they're there to take control from nightblades you can already see.

Rianai · September 2019

jcm2606 wrote: »

And, even when you don't use a counter against literally any other skill in the game, cloak is still the best. It has the effects of like 4 different skills that are or have been in the game (negates all targeting -> old passive dodge; forces any in-flight projectiles to miss -> Shimmering Shield, projectile reflect/absorption; 100% damage mitigation against anything except AoE's -> Mist Form, but better; absolute control over the fight -> Shade). A single skill shouldn't offer all of that in a single GCD, that's the literal definition of overloaded.

Cloak isn't compareable to those skills. You can not keep cloak up while attacking. Imagine any defense would just go away the moment you attack someone, or just cast any skill that isn't pure self buff - that's how cloak works. Shields/reflects/passive dodge chance don't go away while attacking. Mistform can't be broken by anything and grants mobility in addition to high dmg mitigation and cc immunity. It has zero counters, that's why healing/mag regen is disabled. Shade works completely different from cloak and is often required to make cloak work.

If cloak were as op it would be sufficient as only defense - but it is not. Players that rely only on cloak are dead the moment it gets countered - which happens all the time. Yes, cloak can be frustrating to play against when paired with additional defense but that's always the result of combining different things, never cloak alone.

Beardimus · September 2019

I think your answer is already in this thread. They see you, attack reveals you.

Away from mechs i don't get the concept of what you are asking.

You want a tell that someone used a thing to see you when you are in a mode that has no tell? Surely by that logic when you cloak there should be a tell. I'm not being snarky, legit quering your logic. The pot is the direct counter to cloak, which is strong, and that's how counters work..?

EdoKeledus · September 2019

Yeah cloaking away is too hard, cloak should also guarantee major expedition for the caster and debuff all the enemies speed by 60%.

For the indication about detect potions, all the server need a notification like that : Carefull insert player name near insert position at insert timetable used a detect potion.

Detect potions need also a nerf I think zos should reduce the range and increase the cooldown for the balance. The same should be done for inner light and expert hunter for the sandardization.

AOE skills should not be able to deal damage when players are invisible.

Solariken · September 2019

Yeah stealth detect potions are dirty - what's extra stupid is that mag restore/regen are on the same potion which means someone can hard counter you without making any sacrifice or choice.

snipezor · September 2019

EdoKeledus wrote: »

Yeah cloaking away is too hard, cloak should also guarantee major expedition for the caster and debuff all the enemies speed by 60%.

For the indication about detect potions, all the server need a notification like that : Carefull insert player name near insert position at insert timetable used a detect potion.

Detect potions need also a nerf I think zos should reduce the range and increase the cooldown for the balance. The same should be done for inner light and expert hunter for the sandardization.

AOE skills should not be able to deal damage when players are invisible.

I don't mean to offend, but was there supposed a "/s" at the end of that? I can't help but feel as if there were. I do think that a graphic akin to magelight would be appropriate given the power of detect potions, but that's about all I think they need.

Somewhat related - over the weekend I had the thought that if detect potions are the hard counter to cloak, will invisibility pots counter detect pots? I didn't really expect them to but tested it a little with the help of a sorc who had just ripped my lungs out while using a detect potion. Indeed, invis pots don't do anything against detect pots. In testing he confirmed that while he had the detect up and I had the invis up, he could still see me just fine.

danthemann5 · September 2019

Few things in this game give me greater joy than hunting down fleeing Nightblades with detect pots. The only thing possibly more entertaining is lighting up a NB who thinks he's escaped in front of a zerg of friendlies.

To answer the OP's question: I've never seen an indication when another person, friendly or enemy, uses a detect pot.

ScruffyWhiskers · September 2019

Do you guys remember when detect potions used to last for the entire duration of the potion? The good old days.

They are pretty balanced right now all in all. You have to make a choice on how much swift and/or Steed you want to run vs offensive power or sustain if you want to survive 15 seconds of a highly mobile adversary on a chase. Sometimes you can't even get to a rock or tree in mistform. It's all part of the game.

Mayrael · September 2019

jcm2606 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Maybe a bit sidebar. But detect pots offer a hard counter to cloak.

I always wondered what the reaction would be if counters existed for each defence. Shields, block, resistance, healing. Imagine being able to negate them for a garaunteed duration they you can with cloak.

Then onslaught happened. Now resistance is countered and people went nuts. Lol

Eh, one of these things (cloak) is not like the other's. Nothing else gives you the amount of advantages that cloak offers, in a single GCD:
Negates all tracking and targeting.

Suppresses any previously applied DoT's.

Forces any in-flight projectiles to miss.

Allows for 100% damage mitigation against anything except AoE's, while still allowing for full strength healing and magicka recovery.

Gives the Nightblade absolute control over the fight when a viable counter (high radius AoE, detect pots) isn't used, allowing the Nightblade to disengage and reengage at will.

IMO cloak is hugely overloaded, and needs at least one of the above advantages addressed, because it's the strongest skill when a counter isn't used, and most counters (except high radius AoE's which aren't common, and detect pots) can be outplayed by a good Nightblade. A mid radius AoE (most AoE's are mid radius) can catch most Nightblade's who crutch on cloak, but a good Nightblade can easily bamboozle you with cloak, shade and/or dodge, getting out of that AoE and hence gaining control over the fight.

If stealth and slipperiness is meant to be NB's thing, that's fine and all, but a single skill shouldn't offer all of the above, while being spammable and while also not punishing the NB when pulled out of stealth.

Cloak has more counters than any signature class ability in the game. If you're facing an opponent and you don't counter them, how does that become the abilities fault?

"Strongest skill when a counter isn't used"

That's like saying turn evil is too powerful because if I don't use a counter (CC break) it prevents movement, attacks, dodgeroll, abilities, etc. lol

"Hey, let's judge abilities as if counters don't exist." Talk about a balancing strategy... wow

Except most counters aren't that effective against a good Nightblade. Detection skills are super expensive, have a short duration, and have a very small radius (only 6 meters). Most AoE's are mid radius at best, so you're left spamming them in an area that the Nightblade probably left ages ago. That leaves you with a few large AoE's (Steel Tornado, Caltrops, Hurricane, Power Extraction), which aren't available on all classes or specs, and detect pots, which only have like a 35% uptime and put every other pot you have on cooldown.

And, even when you don't use a counter against literally any other skill in the game, cloak is still the best. It has the effects of like 4 different skills that are or have been in the game (negates all targeting -> old passive dodge; forces any in-flight projectiles to miss -> Shimmering Shield, projectile reflect/absorption; 100% damage mitigation against anything except AoE's -> Mist Form, but better; absolute control over the fight -> Shade). A single skill shouldn't offer all of that in a single GCD, that's the literal definition of overloaded.

Yeah because when you are talking about effective counter you think: Totally disable the skill for how long as I want, at any range and what most important it should be implemented in almost every skill I use so I won't have to change anything in my build.

Just because good NB didn't died when you used counter to cloak it doesn't mean cloak is OP. It means you encountered better player. Counters to cloak have also counters and you should be aware of that and keep this in mind when facing NB.

Same as you have to keep in mind that Templar can go from execute range to full in 2 GCDs, sorc can bolt away etc. etc. Each of those defensive tactics has counters same as cloak, and same as cloak those counters can be countered to.

You say counters to cloak are ineffective because you can't kill NBs, while I find them as one of the most easy targets for me just because I know how and when to use those counters.

Based on above, if we use same counters and I am able to kill around 75% of NBs I met while you can't, please try to find where this difference comes from? Conclusion is simple, counters are as good as the player who use them.

Ledhead10 · September 2019

HaruKamui wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

The "red eye" indicator is only visible to the user of the potion.

"A visual effect will now appear over your character’s head when using Detection Potions, Magelight, or Expert Hunter to notify other players of your ability to see sneaking/invisible enemies."

from: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5372942#Comment_5372942

I noticed this bug the other day. Its clearly not working as intended.

juhislihis19 · September 2019

I just don't understand why would Cloak supress DOTs? You are supposed to be invisible, not nonexistent?

Zabulus · September 2019

Luede wrote: »

advice, dont rely exclusively on stealth. weak gank builds bring u nowhere.

Stupid statement.