A plea for common sense

mague · September 2019

Hi,

it is getting worse and worse with the libs lately. An now i rolled a new Nord and the Nord crashes on the same setup the fellow Khajiit alt is using. And, for example, ActionDurationReminder is missing libs that are not named on the website (rolled back to the older and working version) and i felt like: enough with it. Why do you change add-ons that work as standalones for years now ?

I am talking about Depency Hell
I am on computers since 1985, maintained a TV DVB software plugin (Delphi) for a few years and i am a professional admin since 19 years and depency hell is nothing new. Even on the Amiga some tried to reference to a 3rd party lib in their own libs. Past me the deluge is the biblical term for mememe.

As pro i debugged a few apache with, say, wordpress and then the problem is a 3rd or even 4th party add-on. Wasted lifetime because you cant fix the 4th party software and the developer died in a car accident or is in prison or retired... just for example how coding is not always the solution

The problem is , you dont help the community, you leave scorched-earth if you leave the game or dont have the time to maintain your add-ons. You dont leave one add-on, you maybe leave four of them. No, Mignion is no option. It is just another depency. And only the download is 50MB. I dont know how much it is after installation. However, 50MB to manage 3MB lua ascii snipplets is another insanity in itself.

Libs and shared libs are not the answer to all. For example there is more and more evidence that on single user machines static compiled apps are better for speed, resources and other criteria. Since the (extreme) OO was introduced it got even worse. Some even dream of local code referencing to cloud code. Scorched-earth will be the result. Once someone drops you will have to do it new or give up on it. Only few pick up other peoples source. Why do add-on developers put the burden of multiple libs on their shoulders ? Do you have to much time to maintain your add-on's ?

Ok, Mignion is 50MB download and n MB installed. Why cant you copy'n paste the "libs" into your lua source or reference to a local file ? We are talking KB here. KB wasnt even a topic back in the days of modems. Just because some (false) priests of modern OO hell are preaching libs and how coding has to be done nowadays ? Maybe those are just preaching depency of the people to their soft crap. But that is a different discussion. Please, if you do it for free and for the community, then do it user and maintainer friendly !!

Please think about it and thank you for reading (my not exactly worldclass english).

An (userfriendly) add-on should be a single plug-in like a USB stick and not a knot of wires.

Easily_Lost · September 2019

I don't know what your problem is. I have been using addons for years with no problems.
When they began separating the libs from the addon downloads still no problem.
Once your in game after yo start using an addon, if it gives you lua errors, check the addon list to find out what the libs are that are missing. Go to Minion and download those libs. Problem solved.

Blaming the addon authors is just wrong ( don't know how to word it correctly ). They do it on there on own time, no pay, and very little appreciation. Separating libs from the main addon is easier for them.

I just want to say a big THANK YOU from me to all the addon authors out there for the dedication for taking their time and creating and maintaining addons. Also for helping other addon authors with suggestions on how to make there addons better.

Baertram · September 2019

@mague
The problem is we need time to play and we need to keep it simple. This is not always possible.
You could for sure add the libraries to each addon package zip file, but they need their own txt file so they are loaded properly and always the newest version gets loaded.

The benefit is:
Only the users would have a benefit because it's less time consuming.

The disadvantage for the devs:
We would need to include the libs where it wouldn't be necessary as they could easily be installed as standalone as well.
We would need to update them each time inside the addon packages as we did in the past, if a library changes. If you update like 30+ addons this will take hours of nonsense work!
We would need to check which of the addons got such included libs and could be the problem because of a wrong inclusion (without txt file) and so on. There were hundredes of cases where hours of work was spend to determine errors in addons, cross functionality etc.
We would need to chat and solve issues which are raised by these old and outdated libraries (we even do this daily now as there are so many old addons including the libs).

I can only say to you:
Create your own addons, like 10, and maintain them each time as a patch or ZOs game breaker is implemented. Do this in your free time and do this properly so it works over years.
Always include the libraries and update each of your addons if one of the libs updates.
You need to do this some months to see the difference, and you definately will see it.
If you won't: You got too much time maybe

Remember: This is done in our free time, and we do not get money for it. You said it yourself.
If you want to have more user friendly updates, start to code the addons and help! You already described it like you would have the skills.

If you just want to complain because you can, stop it please! Thank you very much.

We are doing it user friendly and for the community, yes. But we are also doing it in a way everything works together and users won't get error messages every 2nd day because of outdated and old stuff somewhere in the subfolders of 1 of the 100 addons they use. You need to see and understand the complete, and not just rant about 1 of the issues: It's not user friendly enough.

Libs and shared libs are not the answer to all. For example there is more and more evidence that on single user machines static compiled apps are better for speed, resources and other criteria. Since the (extreme) OO was introduced it got even worse. Some even dream of local code referencing to cloud code. Scorched-earth will be the result. Once someone drops you will have to do it new or give up on it. Only few pick up other peoples source. Why do add-on developers put the burden of multiple libs on their shoulders ? Do you have to much time to maintain your add-on's ?

Ehrm, you somehow talk about other stuff and not addons here, right?
If we would have too much time we wouldn't use the libraries as standalone versions, as described above. But I see oncve again: YOu have no clue about the addons and how the lua code + the game + libraries work and just complain about something you understand from other software development taks, which is not the case here.
Once someone drops we always checked if there is a need to update or maintain there stuff, like libraries. And even if we wouldn't, some addons may break or stop working at all. Correct. But this would also happen if the libraries were included or their code was duplicated in each addon which use the library, thopusand of redundant code lines which do the same as 1 library. If Zos changes the *** and the addon code is not compatible anymore, what would be the difference? YOu'd have to change the thousand of codelines in each addon so it works again. If it's one library: You'd have to change it in 1 library and roll it out, so it fixes all other addons autoamtically. So where is the time advantage in your description, with or without a library?

btw:
With the next minion dependencies will be recognized and installed with the addon.
But also now it's really easy to once install a library and then update them all via Minion.
Even manual installation is very easy and users who use addons shoould be able to do so.
At least most of the users I talk to agree that it's no problem anymore. It was during the transition.

Now please go on ranting and re-inventing the wheel. You are welcome to assist in the addon community if you want to.
But pelase stop to try to force somethign which is obviously only more work and less benefit for all (including you as the user).

I'll stay with @Easily_Lost (You are welcome) as users then, who enjoy the game

mague · September 2019

Baertram wrote: »

.
Now please go on ranting and re-inventing the wheel.

I was not ranting and it is not reinventing the wheel. This is as old as script languages are.
It is just a plea. I wont cancel sub if no one gives a *beep*

A library is a collection of functions. With such a collection you go either the library way or you just copy or include them into your source. I dont do lua, but bash script a lot.

With lua you can maintain a file myFunctions.lua for yourself and do it like this in your main.lua:

local doESO = require("scripts.myFunctions")
doESO.FunctionFromTheOtherFile()

The file myFunctions.lua can be shared between developers and multiple add-on's but the users do not have to care for this. They just drop a folder into addon's and go play. No depencies. It does not matter if someone uses an older version of the myfunctions.lua as long as his add-on works. And since it is ascii source only, the waste of disc space is negligible.