Maintenance for the week of August 19:
• PC/Mac: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – August 19, 4:00AM EDT (8:00 UTC) - 8:00AM EDT (12:00 UTC)

Blood Craze vs Structured Entropy - DoT standards are balanced, right?

  • master_vanargand
    master_vanargand
    ✭✭✭✭
    Melee skills is trash in PvP.
    Melee build dies before approaching.
  • Vapirko
    Vapirko
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    MaxJrFTW wrote: »
    My blood craze has a 25k tooltip. Both are overtuned. Idk what you're trying to accomplish by posting made up tooltips.

    What class/build is that? On a playable build for open world I max out at around 18k in my Stamplar.
    Mayrael wrote: »
    Usual stamina build for PvP is something around 35k stamina, 5,5k weapon damage and 2,5-3k Stam regen (CP) now show me build with such power for magicka. It seems that skills are balanced around potential power that's why blood Craze is weaker because when you put on Masters it becames stronger than entropy same situation we can see with destruction reach/clench and few drinks this patch - because there are sets that synergies to good with them - I'm not saying it's good but it's seems to be the pattern. And if you want to fight like "which skill is going to have bigger tooltip overall" I'm not sure entropy would win - stamina has much bigger damage potential.

    And somehow in Cyrodiil blood craze on my death recaps usually hits harder than even entropy, wonder why?

    That build you posted is a stamblade build and they have been notoriously OP for a while or were. A normal stamina build will have 3.5-4.2k wpn damage and 2k or less stam regen. On my Stamplar I have 3.9k wpn damage and 1700 regen and that’s medium armor using hulking and NMGs because I neeed the major fracture. For comparison my buddies magplar can get away with 1k mag regen and has about the same spell damage.
    Derra wrote: »
    I like the part where dw passives are completely ignored while mages guild are not.

    Bloodcraze heal scales 10% stronger than structured entropy.
    Both have similar dmg scaling (albeit with entropy lasting 2 second longer resulting in similar dps but higher total dmg).
    Bloodcraze has 20% dmg bonus in execute range and 15% dmg bonus against cced or otherwise impaired targets.

    Then you still have the option to equip master DW - which DOES put bloodcraze way beyond entropys dmg potential (8000 to 11000 tooltip dmg increase).

    If you want to make an argument about skills being subpar without their ability altering weapon look at healing ward/ward ally. That skill is absolutely useless without brp resto.
    Bloodcraze is not. It´s still a decent skill.
    Is entropy overall better? A bit - but i wouldn´t label that problematic when you look at how much better for example PI is than destro reach. There are inequalities both ways.

    If you’re going to take DW passives into account then you also need to take destro passives into account lol. They still help boost damage by a significant amount even if they don’t buff entropy specifically.
    Edited by Vapirko on August 14, 2019 7:02AM
  • master_vanargand
    master_vanargand
    ✭✭✭✭
    Mayrael wrote: »
    Melee skills is trash in PvP.
    Melee build dies before approaching.

    Magic word. Gapcloser. It used to be a "musthave" back in the days when real PvPers were in the game, now everyone follows the meta to stack up as much stats as possible and wonders why someone doesn't stand still waiting to get killed. Look for best players there, every single one of them uses gapclosers because it negates totally advantage of range. Strict L2P issue.

    Gap closers? lololololol
    There are many skills with longer range than gap closers.
    Did you forget that Battle Spirit increase the 28m's skill range?
  • Vapirko
    Vapirko
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Mayrael wrote: »
    Melee skills is trash in PvP.
    Melee build dies before approaching.

    Magic word. Gapcloser. It used to be a "musthave" back in the days when real PvPers were in the game, now everyone follows the meta to stack up as much stats as possible and wonders why someone doesn't stand still waiting to get killed. Look for best players there, every single one of them uses gapclosers because it negates totally advantage of range. Strict L2P issue.

    Gap closers? lololololol
    There are many skills with longer range than gap closers.
    Did you forget that Battle Spirit increase the 28m's skill range?

    There’s also just not much room for them these days. And the options are terrible. 2H gap closer is ok, DW gap closer is garbage, honestly I use the magicka temple gap closer on my stamina templar because the off balance is better than anything I can get from stamina gap closers.
  • Enkil
    Enkil
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Entropy damage is too high considering it has heal and buff too.
    @Enlil | Añu Warden | Ånu Templar | Enkîl DK | Énkî Sorc | Éreshkigal Necro | Eñlil Sorc | Inaña NB | Mes NB | Ninhursåg Warden | NA Mac/PC

    Former Shadowbane Channeler Class Advocate | Guild/Nation Leader - Obsidian Overlords/Ministry of Chaos | Entropy & Redemption
  • Mayrael
    Mayrael
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    susmitds wrote: »
    Mayrael wrote: »
    susmitds wrote: »
    Mayrael wrote: »
    Rake wrote: »
    Mayrael wrote: »
    Usual stamina build for PvP is something around 35k stamina, 5,5k weapon damage and 2,5-3k Stam regen (CP) now show me build with such power for magicka. It seems that skills are balanced around potential power that's why blood Craze is weaker because when you put on Masters it becames stronger than entropy same situation we can see with destruction reach/clench and few drinks this patch - because there are sets that synergies to good with them - I'm not saying it's good but it's seems to be the pattern. And if you want to fight like "which skill is going to have bigger tooltip overall" I'm not sure entropy would win - stamina has much bigger damage potential.

    And somehow in Cyrodiil blood craze on my death recaps usually hits harder than even entropy, wonder why?

    Post such build



    Now your turn for magicka one, I'm waiting.

    That's a standard stamblade build with three damage sets.

    Spriggan+Truth+MasterBow+Bloodspawn. You can replace Truth with any other damage set for similar stats. Also those stats shown are at maximum buff, of which more than 1k buffed weapon damage is coming from Master Bow+infused Berserker. It is essentially a glass canon build with zero resists at base, and will get destroyed in seconds against organized enemies.

    Spinner+Spell Strategist+infused BRP resto+Bloodspawn is the closest mirror version available and is actually pretty good on Magblade.

    Also that build will only work on Stamblade and no other stamina class due to its glass canon nature. No other stamina class can get away with 11k resists and usually have far lesser regen.

    Essentially all Stamblade builds over the last few years are variants on the same build - Spriggan+Master Bow+Bloodspawn+X

    Replace X with whatever - Shacklebreaker, Hunding, 7th legion, Bone Pirate, Shadow Walker, etc.

    Few points on your response.
    1. Magicka has no replacement for master bow, not even close.
    2. Spell strategist gives you buff vs one enmy and this buff isn't affected by minor/major sorcery, it doesn't increase your healing. It's not comparable with raw spell damage added to character sheet.
    3. Did you tried to play magicka with 3 damage sets and none sustain? Try it, all magicka skills are more expensive some of them way above standard 15%. Not to mention stamina issues for cc breaking (these are more or less irrelevant in CP but noCP... Oh dude...)
    4. Just show us the stats, posting random 3 sets proves nothing.

    1) That's true. But you can use vBRP resto which has a 1 pc bonus as well as being the best defensive set.
    2) Spell Strategist is affected by Major/Minor buffs. It is single target sure and so is Master Bow(as well as this build) and has more raw damage than any other set. Speaking of character sheet, if you look at his character sheet in the vid, you will notice he is just slightly above 4k weapon damage buffed, not 6k. He uses Build Editor to show 6k effective weapon damage, which adds in hidden damage boosts like Master Bow(Spell Strategist falls in the same category).
    3) This build is using Bosmer+Infused Stamina recovery+Blue Stamina recovery food for 3.3k stamina regen. Using Breton+Infused Magicka recovery+Blue Magicka recovery drink, you will get 3k Magicka recovery+8% less cost. Combine that with Magicka steal and it is overkill sustain. No other class apart from stamblade invests that deeply in sustain. Also funny that you mention it, this build won't even work much in no-CP as it uses CP tactician to proc Truth.
    4) Let me put the build in editor. I just mentioned a basic mirror.

    1) 129 Spell damage only when on back bar? Correct me if I'm wrong but BRP resto gives 2 healing done, and discussion is about dots damage not healing? Not very useful when compared to 300 damage everywhere.
    2) I didn't know it works with major sorcery, always thought it's a debuff, but yeah you're right about that :D I guess every day we are learning something new :) TBH when we talk about effective weapon damage of this build it's around 10,5k not 6k just made it on the build editor with basic setup from memory, I have reached 4,8k real weapon damage with 3 recovery glyphs (LoL) , we could go even higher if we would give up a bit of sustain. With ruffian passive it goes to 12k effective weapon damage and in execute range? Lol :D Nevertheless let's say it's comparable to some magicka builds, but with less sustain if we can say that 1,5k-2,5k of weapon/spell damage is meaningless :trollface: (at least I remember I was getting something around 9k effective spell damage but with 2,3k mag recov - If I would go for 2,25k Stam recovery on Snikers build I'd end with 5,6k real weapon damage and 11,5k effective weapon damage which also buffs vigor) . And yup, this build is just for NBs.
    3) Nevertheless it is nice to talk to someone who's not using void arguments ;) Cheers mate!



    Mayrael wrote: »
    Melee skills is trash in PvP.
    Melee build dies before approaching.

    Magic word. Gapcloser. It used to be a "musthave" back in the days when real PvPers were in the game, now everyone follows the meta to stack up as much stats as possible and wonders why someone doesn't stand still waiting to get killed. Look for best players there, every single one of them uses gapclosers because it negates totally advantage of range. Strict L2P issue.

    Gap closers? lololololol
    There are many skills with longer range than gap closers.
    Did you forget that Battle Spirit increase the 28m's skill range?

    O_O I can't believe I'm reading this. You seriously consider yourself as a PvP player? You have no space for gapcloser on your bar so you want to nerf all ranged damage? Wow, just wow. Even on ranged spec I'm using gapcloser just because every stamina toon or magsorc can out run me so I need it to secure the kill but you refuse to find a spot for it on a melee build? 🤦‍♂️
    Edited by Mayrael on August 14, 2019 8:52AM
    I am doing my best, but I am not a native speaker, sorry.

  • Gargath
    Gargath
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Silver Leash from Fighters Guild skills is quite useful for DW pvp, just the range could be 28 meters instead of 22 m.
    Also Consuming Trap dot (Soul Magic) is great, for either ranged magicka or melee stamina.
    True, the Entropy damage is high considering it has heal and buff but it's heal is low, while the Vigor for stamina now is much more potent.
    PC EU (PL): 14 characters. Member of Priests of Hircine Werewolf Guild. In ESO since 06.08.2015. CP930+.
  • Vlad9425
    Vlad9425
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    It’s hard to care at this point, balance is awful and lag is worse than ever. Any decision they make nowadays just makes me think “whatever”.
  • Rake
    Rake
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Also that is 30k stamina, not 35k as you claim typical stam char to be.
    With very low HP pool that would be just asking for death on anything but stamblade
    Edited by Rake on August 14, 2019 11:01AM
  • Insco851
    Insco851
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    OP has left the building. Solid thread
  • xylena_lazarow
    xylena_lazarow
    ✭✭✭✭
    Melee skills is trash in PvP.
    Melee build dies before approaching.

    This.

    There shouldn't even be an argument here. The melee ability should be stronger, hands down.

    Their ability audit apparently did not include risk/reward.
  • Uryel
    Uryel
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    MaxJrFTW wrote: »
    Stop posting this. Nobody is wasting 3.6k stam to dodge entropy.

    You'd rather waste 20+ k HP then ? :trollface:
    max_only wrote: »
    Bosmers sneaking past all the dangers in the woods. Come upon a cultist doing a ritual? Sneak past. Come upon a brigand ambush? Sneak past. Come upon a mighty beast? Sneak past. The feeling of “yesssss” when you can squeeze by in tight spaces unnoticed. Sometimes I’m able to take what I need from right under their noses.
  • BNOC
    BNOC
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Vapirko wrote: »
    That build you posted is a stamblade build and they have been notoriously OP for a while or were. A normal stamina build will have 3.5-4.2k wpn damage and 2k or less stam regen. On my Stamplar I have 3.9k wpn damage and 1700 regen and that’s medium armor using hulking and NMGs because I neeed the major fracture. For comparison my buddies magplar can get away with 1k mag regen and has about the same spell damage.

    Interested to know this open world build with 1k recovery if you can get any.

    That doesn't seem sustainable to me, unless he literally sits in tower farms fighting zergs with restoring aura or is just a buff/aoe slave.
    Melee skills is trash in PvP.
    Melee build dies before approaching.

    This.

    There shouldn't even be an argument here. The melee ability should be stronger, hands down.

    Their ability audit apparently did not include risk/reward.

    What's the risk/reward involved in your point? hopefully it's less biased than this thread.
    Edited by BNOC on August 14, 2019 1:16PM
    vMSA - Magplar - Xbox EU - 15/11/16
    578,000 - 36 Minutes 58 Seconds (Top 2 World?)

    vMSA - Magplar - Xbox NA
    569,000 - 40 minutes (350CP, Non optimised runs)
  • Mayrael
    Mayrael
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Melee skills is trash in PvP.
    Melee build dies before approaching.

    This.

    There shouldn't even be an argument here. The melee ability should be stronger, hands down.

    Their ability audit apparently did not include risk/reward.

    Then why would anyone go ranged if someone with a half brain can gapclose you in a second and then melt you because he can spam gapcloser forever? Why then bow/bow builds aren't dominating PvP when melee is in such a bad state? Why almost every stamina build uses 2h or dw? And most important why aren't you playing ranged? "It's not my style" - said 80% (number from my a..) of Cyrodiil, yeah right.

    In general melee weapons have very strong skills and passives, this is the reward, you just need to learn how to use them.

    And about that build. If you play stam DK, Warden or whatever, you have lower sustain and weapon damage. Yes that's true, but conviniently nobody says why. Because you use heavy or at least some defensive set, which leads to situation where you have damage output similar to magicka but higher resistances. And when in heavy pls remember about its own sustain passives. When I used to play on my magbplar with heavy I needed just 1,5 recovery, because rest was done by heavy passives.

    Once again, I'm not defending the dot meta, I don't care about it. All I want is balance. If Magicka dots will get nerfed, so should be stamina ones. But since PvP community is made of mostly stam mains, no wonder forum is flooded with apocalyptic threads and requests to nerf just entropy.

    If anything entropy can be brought in line with other dots by removing last 2 ticks as this is the main reason of bigger tooltip.
    I am doing my best, but I am not a native speaker, sorry.

  • JackDaniell
    JackDaniell
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    nsmurfer wrote: »
    4k Weapon Damage, 40k Stamina vs 4k Spell Damage, 40k Magicka (zero CP tooltips)

    Blood Craze - 16949 over 10 secs, 1641 heal every two secs for 10 secs. No additional benefit.
    Has 5M range requiring to be close range application, dodgeable.
    Structured Entropy - 25390 over 12 secs, 1641 heal every two secs for 12 secs. Gives Major Sorcery, 2% Mag Magicka, 2%Magicka Recovery, Empower.
    Has 28M range to spam all you want, no initial hit to dodge.

    Balanced, yeah right.

    All part of the unblockable, undodgeable, low skill meta Zenimax has in mind!
    Ebonheart Templar

    www.youtube.com/user/kristofersommermusic
  • SirMewser
    SirMewser
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    nsmurfer wrote: »
    4k Weapon Damage, 40k Stamina vs 4k Spell Damage, 40k Magicka (zero CP tooltips)

    Blood Craze - 16949 over 10 secs, 1641 heal every two secs for 10 secs. No additional benefit.
    Has 5M range requiring to be close range application, dodgeable.
    Structured Entropy - 25390 over 12 secs, 1641 heal every two secs for 12 secs. Gives Major Sorcery, 2% Mag Magicka, 2%Magicka Recovery, Empower.
    Has 28M range to spam all you want, no initial hit to dodge.

    Balanced, yeah right.

    If you're going to ignore the skill line passives of one but not the other, then it's easy to assume you're trying to manipulate data presented.

    Blood Craze : damage over 10 secs, 1641 heal every two secs for 10 secs, does 20% more damage to enemies under 25% health, deals 15% damage to CCed enemies, can deal additional bleed with axe, procs enchantments and poisons, enhanced by master weapon. Base cost 2700 but reduced by 15% by skill line passive, has 5m range requiring to be close range.
    Structured Entropy : damage over 12 secs, 1641 heal every two secs for 12 secs. Gives Major Sorcery, 2% Mag Magicka, 2%Magicka Recovery, Empower, costs 2970 at base but reduced by 10% by skill line passive, has a 28m range.

    Both can be dodged, don't lie. Also each tick of entropy can be dodged also.
    Your numbers are clearly not from proper specs, almost as if you look the tooltip of blood craze on a magic toon.
  • No_Division
    No_Division
    ✭✭✭
    MaxJrFTW wrote: »
    Anyron wrote: »
    nsmurfer wrote: »
    4k Weapon Damage, 40k Stamina vs 4k Spell Damage, 40k Magicka (zero CP tooltips)

    Blood Craze - 16949 over 10 secs, 1641 heal every two secs for 10 secs. No additional benefit.
    Has 5M range requiring to be close range application, dodgeable.
    Structured Entropy - 25390 over 12 secs, 1641 heal every two secs for 12 secs. Gives Major Sorcery, 2% Mag Magicka, 2%Magicka Recovery, Empower.
    Has 28M range to spam all you want, no initial hit to dodge.

    Balanced, yeah right.

    Btw entropy is dodgeable on live.. Every tick

    Stop posting this. Nobody is wasting 3.6k stam to dodge entropy.

    normally I agree, but I kept watching dodging everywhere. So either someone is doing it or im drinking too much coffee lol.
  • itscompton
    itscompton
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    nsmurfer wrote: »
    4k Weapon Damage, 40k Stamina vs 4k Spell Damage, 40k Magicka (zero CP tooltips)

    Blood Craze - 16949 over 10 secs, 1641 heal every two secs for 10 secs. No additional benefit.
    Has 5M range requiring to be close range application, dodgeable.
    Structured Entropy - 25390 over 12 secs, 1641 heal every two secs for 12 secs. Gives Major Sorcery, 2% Mag Magicka, 2%Magicka Recovery, Empower.
    Has 28M range to spam all you want, no initial hit to dodge.

    Balanced, yeah right.

    4/40 Stam/WD does not equal 4/40 Mag/SD in damage calculations so pointless comparison. And your bias totally shows when you include the passives for Mages guild as if they're part of Entropy tooltip but don't include any passives from duel wield in your Blood craze description. Does Structured Entropy do 20% extra damage to enemies under 25% health (slaughter passive)? Does Structured entropy give you an extra 15% damage for attacking stunned, immobilized, disoriented or silenced enemies (ruffian passive)? Does structured Entropy give you the chance to proc a strong secondary bleed, or increase raw damage by 6%, or give you crit chance that stacks with Major crit buff, or allow you to passively ignore 20% of someone's armor (twin blunt and blade passive)?

    And what good is spamming a long duration DOT ability with no initial damage? L2R (learn to reason) issues here.
    Edited by itscompton on August 14, 2019 3:41PM
  • itscompton
    itscompton
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Vapirko wrote: »
    MaxJrFTW wrote: »
    My blood craze has a 25k tooltip. Both are overtuned. Idk what you're trying to accomplish by posting made up tooltips.

    What class/build is that? On a playable build for open world I max out at around 18k in my Stamplar.
    Mayrael wrote: »
    Usual stamina build for PvP is something around 35k stamina, 5,5k weapon damage and 2,5-3k Stam regen (CP) now show me build with such power for magicka. It seems that skills are balanced around potential power that's why blood Craze is weaker because when you put on Masters it becames stronger than entropy same situation we can see with destruction reach/clench and few drinks this patch - because there are sets that synergies to good with them - I'm not saying it's good but it's seems to be the pattern. And if you want to fight like "which skill is going to have bigger tooltip overall" I'm not sure entropy would win - stamina has much bigger damage potential.

    And somehow in Cyrodiil blood craze on my death recaps usually hits harder than even entropy, wonder why?

    That build you posted is a stamblade build and they have been notoriously OP for a while or were. A normal stamina build will have 3.5-4.2k wpn damage and 2k or less stam regen. On my Stamplar I have 3.9k wpn damage and 1700 regen and that’s medium armor using hulking and NMGs because I neeed the major fracture. For comparison my buddies magplar can get away with 1k mag regen and has about the same spell damage.
    Derra wrote: »
    I like the part where dw passives are completely ignored while mages guild are not.

    Bloodcraze heal scales 10% stronger than structured entropy.
    Both have similar dmg scaling (albeit with entropy lasting 2 second longer resulting in similar dps but higher total dmg).
    Bloodcraze has 20% dmg bonus in execute range and 15% dmg bonus against cced or otherwise impaired targets.

    Then you still have the option to equip master DW - which DOES put bloodcraze way beyond entropys dmg potential (8000 to 11000 tooltip dmg increase).

    If you want to make an argument about skills being subpar without their ability altering weapon look at healing ward/ward ally. That skill is absolutely useless without brp resto.
    Bloodcraze is not. It´s still a decent skill.
    Is entropy overall better? A bit - but i wouldn´t label that problematic when you look at how much better for example PI is than destro reach. There are inequalities both ways.

    If you’re going to take DW passives into account then you also need to take destro passives into account lol. They still help boost damage by a significant amount even if they don’t buff entropy specifically.


    Congratulations, you just made the worst arguement I've EVER seen posted in these forums, just a complete non-sequitur.
    Edited by itscompton on August 14, 2019 3:38PM
  • master_vanargand
    master_vanargand
    ✭✭✭✭
    Mayrael wrote: »
    Usual stamina build for PvP is something around 35k stamina, 5,5k weapon damage and 2,5-3k Stam regen (CP) now show me build with such power for magicka.

    Such a build is impossible.
  • Derra
    Derra
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Melee skills is trash in PvP.
    Melee build dies before approaching.

    This.

    There shouldn't even be an argument here. The melee ability should be stronger, hands down.

    Their ability audit apparently did not include risk/reward.

    Since they´ve effectively removed vaible CCs from all classes mobile enough to theoretically play ranged - the only advantage to range play is zerging.

    I think the range advantage gets way overblown most of the time - mostly by ppl reluctant to slot a gapcloser.
    Every comment is from a pvp pov unless stated otherwise.

    <Noricum>
    I live. I die. I live again.

    Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
    Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 50

  • Emma_Overload
    Emma_Overload
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Melee skills is trash in PvP.
    Melee build dies before approaching.

    This.

    There shouldn't even be an argument here. The melee ability should be stronger, hands down.

    Their ability audit apparently did not include risk/reward.

    You're kidding, right? There is no such thing as ranged combat in this game unless you are a perma-cloaked bowtard.

    If a melee build decides they want to fight you, your only options are to fight in melee range or to run/cloak/streak away. Every single mechanic in the game is biased in favor of melee builds. Snares, roots, stuns and gap closers are cheap and plentiful, while escape methods are expensive and failure prone.

    Call me when gap closers have a 15 meter range and an exponentially increasing cost like Streak, and then we can talk about "risk and reward"!

    Edited by Emma_Overload on August 15, 2019 7:52AM
    #CAREBEARMASTERRACE
  • master_vanargand
    master_vanargand
    ✭✭✭✭
    Melee skills is trash in PvP.
    Melee build dies before approaching.

    This.

    There shouldn't even be an argument here. The melee ability should be stronger, hands down.

    Their ability audit apparently did not include risk/reward.

    You're kidding, right? There is no such thing as ranged combat in this game unless you are a perma-cloaked bowtard.

    If a melee build decides they want to fight you, your only options are to fight in melee range or to run/cloak/streak away. Every single mechanic in the game is biased in favor of melee builds. Snares, roots, stuns and gap closers are cheap and plentiful, while escape methods are expensive and failure prone.

    Call me when gap closers have a 15 meter range and an exponentially increasing cost like Streak, and then we can talk about "risk and reward"!

    Melee builds hit many DoT and then use gap closer.
    Oh, melee builds will soon die.
Sign In or Register to comment.