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Templar....the new Cheesy Dip?

VirtualElizabeth
VirtualElizabeth
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I have been watching a couple streamers the past couple of days and the Templar hate keeps on coming! I am having a hard time deciding if their game angst is justified or are they more unhappy that stamina isn't god anymore.

FYI I have played a Mag Templar for years - I like cheese but not in my game play. I also really like my Stamplar too. Is changing our way of thinking how the game should be played really going to kill ESO? Should us Magicka players continue to be the side item in a PVP combo and be happy with bowing down to our mighty Stam players to keep the game afloat? Honestly I would rather take it for the team and continue magicka being marginal in PVP then to push people out the door. Sorc hate is to not be discussed here.

What are your thoughts?
Edited by VirtualElizabeth on August 13, 2019 9:01PM
@ElizabethInAustin
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Eleanour Masterham - Breton Templar
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Elinora Valen - Dunmer MagDK
Elsa Larethal - Altmer Mag Warden
  • VirtualElizabeth
    VirtualElizabeth
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    I hate Sorcs' hands.

    BANNED, LOL
    @ElizabethInAustin
    NA/PC - EP
    Eleanour Masterham - Breton Templar
    Elise Masterham - Breton Magicka Nightblade
    Elinora Valen - Dunmer MagDK
    Elsa Larethal - Altmer Mag Warden
  • Insco851
    Insco851
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    Considering they “standardized” a bunch of classes but Templar got away Scott free... yea it’s gonna fall into the cheese dip factory with everyone rolling magplar. They were already really good. Not broken. Not OP. Not pet sorc specs, but very much could hold their own. They will find a nice ledge above everything else this patch though it would seem.
  • kaithuzar
    kaithuzar
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    I’m pro magicka but...

    I think both stamina and magicka should have viable playstyles with dots.

    I think both stamina and magicka should have viable playstyles with burst direct damage.

    I think neither playstyle (stamina vs magicka & dots vs direct/burst) should be more viable than the other.

    Unfortunately ZOS has yet to be able to obtain this equivalency ratio we call ‘balance’.

    I think for years we’ve had Band-Aid patches done and they have only recently started to do things the right way.

    I think because it takes so long and so much code to do things the right way we can expect the game to be broken for a while until we get to a similar place as 1.3

    Right now, magicka dots are on top; it’s just the current state of broken on the way to balance.

    One key thing that will help balance & diversity is having all weapons light/heavy attacks scale off of highest damage weapon/spell damage.

    Ultimates already scale off of highest damage, I would argue that ultimates should also scale with highest penetration rating.
    This promotes build diversity, so if I want to use onslaught on a magicka character with only 2k weapon penetration, it doesn’t hit like a wet noodle.
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  • RebornRequiem
    RebornRequiem
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    kaithuzar wrote: »
    I’m pro magicka but...

    I think both stamina and magicka should have viable playstyles with dots.

    I think both stamina and magicka should have viable playstyles with burst direct damage.

    I think neither playstyle (stamina vs magicka & dots vs direct/burst) should be more viable than the other.

    Unfortunately ZOS has yet to be able to obtain this equivalency ratio we call ‘balance’.

    I think for years we’ve had Band-Aid patches done and they have only recently started to do things the right way.

    I think because it takes so long and so much code to do things the right way we can expect the game to be broken for a while until we get to a similar place as 1.3

    Right now, magicka dots are on top; it’s just the current state of broken on the way to balance.

    One key thing that will help balance & diversity is having all weapons light/heavy attacks scale off of highest damage weapon/spell damage.

    Ultimates already scale off of highest damage, I would argue that ultimates should also scale with highest penetration rating.
    This promotes build diversity, so if I want to use onslaught on a magicka character with only 2k weapon penetration, it doesn’t hit like a wet noodle.

    magicka dots arent on top, the best dot is the new soul trap, which reaches much higher tooltips on stamina chars. Also the stamina dots like rending slashes and poison injection got some better tooltips now.

    It will be impossible to balance mag and stam specs of one class, so that both are equally strong. Well it is, which would make classes even less unique tough.

    Magicka templars got quite some survival buffs tough this patch and I agree, that both skills living dark and cleansing ritual are very strong and a reason for this new strenght. Still we need to consider, that both skills are very expensive.

    For the ritual it has quite some effects, but some are bound to the class passives like the minor mending and the snare, therefore we need to take them out of the equation. Ritual brings a huge aoe heal, ticking every two seconds, a cleanse and cleanse and heal synergy for allies for a hefty cost. Maybe the healing now is a bit over the top, but so far ritual rather rarely was called OP before this patch.

    Living dark needs some adjustement. The passive rooting is too much and the healing needs some slight adjustements, but only small changes like maybe 10% to not trash it again immediately. First we need to evaluate the current healing power tough.
  • VirtualElizabeth
    VirtualElizabeth
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    Sounds like the deal breakers for some are Living Dark and Ritual - Do you remember when they took away major mending and made it minor mending? I recall one famous streamer dramatically exiting stage left over that! But we did get shards nerfed and something else I thought.
    @ElizabethInAustin
    NA/PC - EP
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  • Kadoin
    Kadoin
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    Like I said in the PTS section: Living Dark should not be on live. Too bad it made it, now excuse me while I find out how to make my HP not even budge with living dark applied...
  • maxjapank
    maxjapank
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    Sounds like the deal breakers for some are Living Dark and Ritual

    There are quite a few bugs with Living Dark. You are welcome to look over at the Templar/class thread. I can't be bothered writing info that is already there. But most of the people complaining are just facing something new and jumping on the "nerf" bandwagon. Again.

    Ritual has also been explained many times. And it is costly. Honestly, players just haven't adjusted to the new dot meta because they don't have purges. It's not Templar skills that are making them powerful. It's the dot meta that makes them immune. So don't blame templars. blame the meta.
  • ecru
    ecru
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    maxjapank wrote: »
    Sounds like the deal breakers for some are Living Dark and Ritual

    There are quite a few bugs with Living Dark. You are welcome to look over at the Templar/class thread. I can't be bothered writing info that is already there. But most of the people complaining are just facing something new and jumping on the "nerf" bandwagon. Again.

    Ritual has also been explained many times. And it is costly. Honestly, players just haven't adjusted to the new dot meta because they don't have purges. It's not Templar skills that are making them powerful. It's the dot meta that makes them immune. So don't blame templars. blame the meta.

    lol feel free to "explain" ritual again
    Gryphon Heart
  • No_Division
    No_Division
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    ecru wrote: »
    maxjapank wrote: »
    Sounds like the deal breakers for some are Living Dark and Ritual

    There are quite a few bugs with Living Dark. You are welcome to look over at the Templar/class thread. I can't be bothered writing info that is already there. But most of the people complaining are just facing something new and jumping on the "nerf" bandwagon. Again.

    Ritual has also been explained many times. And it is costly. Honestly, players just haven't adjusted to the new dot meta because they don't have purges. It's not Templar skills that are making them powerful. It's the dot meta that makes them immune. So don't blame templars. blame the meta.

    lol feel free to "explain" ritual again

    You still haven't shown a video showing how broken you claim it is in a normal combat pvp scenario while pve trial mains explained they don't have room for RoR and have probably moved onto soul trap lol.
  • MaxJrFTW
    MaxJrFTW
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    Just played my magplar and it felt pretty weak. I'm going to stick with magden or magblade this patch.
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    ―Ulrich Leland, 3E 433
  • Iskiab
    Iskiab
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    Yea, all magicka feel pretty squishy right now, and stam feel stronger. Idk why, maybe easy major evasion?

    Idk wtf people are talking about when they say dot meta. It’s like people are playing a different game, is this CP or PvE?

    Why waste time with dots when two people can burst someone in two GCDs. Who cares what the tooltip is, it’s over 10 or 12 seconds and if you haven’t killed someone in pvp in that much time you’re doing it wrong.

    With the protective and PS nerf magicka survivability is way down. It went from 4K subs to 5K, time that with someone else and they’ll drop.
    Edited by Iskiab on August 14, 2019 3:42AM
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  • ecru
    ecru
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    MaxJrFTW wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    LOL holy *** what a tremendous waste of time that thread was. a bunch of very bad templar mains insisted that ackshyually, ele weapon does more damage than sweep, and all it took to shut down their whining about how bad their other overtuned class ability was, was to link a parse of sweep doing *** 40% more damage than ele weapon. let me remind every very good templar main with a very large brain that sweep and jabs do as much damage as blastbones and warden shalks. if you can't manage to make a spammable ability that does that much damage do more damage than ele weapon, you ain't good at ESO.

    Is that why PvE magplars use ele weapon over sweep? It's not rocket science, 1 sec cast time vs instant dmg.

    no, pve magplars use ele weapon over sweep because ele weapon is ranged, and sweep is costly, so you can't sustain with it. that does not mean ele weapon does more damage than sweep, it just means that it's a more efficient choice when playing as a ranged dps in a trial. if you're able to sustain, ele weapon does not do nearly as much damage as sweep.

    let me ask you this--would a warden use ele weapon over shalks, or a necro use it over blastbones? no, not even close. priority on shalks and blastbones is way ahead of a spammable, whether it's ele weapon or something else.

    sweep does roughly 30-40% more damage (depending on how you calculate it, source/my parses from that thread: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6246918/#Comment_6246918) as ele weapon, and can effectively be weaved at about .85 channels/sec. on a very very good parse, you will be able to weave ele weapon about .93-94/sec. it's very clear which ability will do more damage, provided the player in question can actually weave the channel well, has 100% uptime in melee, and can sustain it. i think actually weaving it fast enough is where a lot of people have """""""issues""""""".

    i guess you can look at this another way--does one cast of ele weapon do as much damage as shalks or blastbones? clearly it doesn't, and sweep does about the same damage as those abilities, but is a 1s channel, meaning it can't be weaved as fast (but almost).
    Edited by ecru on August 14, 2019 6:12AM
    Gryphon Heart
  • grannas211
    grannas211
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    Nerf Templar the new Nerf Sorc?
  • _Ahala_
    _Ahala_
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    Why do people insist that magden is even relevant when it comes to the problem with snare... it is literally one of the weakest classes when it comes to snares and roots

    1. Templar : Sacred Ground 30% massive passive snare with Purify, Vamp Bane/Reflective light 40% ranged snare, 70% snare on sweeps, auto root on living dark
    2. DK : Warmth 30% snare on all direct ardent flame abilities, petrify stun that roots, talons aoe root with some damage, 70% snare on dead ground aoe skill
    3. NB : Ranged good dot with either a brief root with 30% snare or no root with 50% snare depending on morph, 70% snare on dead stationary shadow ult
    4. Necro : Mid Ranged aoe root and 50% snare
    5. Sorc : Conal aoe root, 30% snare on hamstring debuff done by pets with flanking attack, 70% single target snare on atro ult
    6. Warden : Ranged aoe 30% snare, garbage melee health scaling root, pbaoe 40% snare on 200 cost ult

    And for frost staff... well that has nothing to do with warden really as it can be used just as well on other classes... and even then frost only has blockade of frost with a 40% snare with an irritating and poorly designed auto root on chilled, a root on clench, and a root on the dead icy rage ult

    TLDR: stop calling out magden cc when it has garbage snares and roots in addition to having no competitive class stun... kinda funny how bad magden stuns, snares, and roots are when it’s the ice mage class of the game but oh well... not exactly zos favorite subclass according to history
    Edited by _Ahala_ on August 14, 2019 7:10AM
  • Nerftheforums
    Nerftheforums
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    Who would have ever said that giving templars super strong dots, amazing hots and an uncounterable cc would have broken the class? Such a surprise
  • JusticeSouldier
    JusticeSouldier
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    I have been watching a couple streamers the past couple of days and the Templar hate keeps on coming! I am having a hard time deciding if their game angst is justified or are they more unhappy that stamina isn't god anymore.

    FYI I have played a Mag Templar for years - I like cheese but not in my game play. I also really like my Stamplar too. Is changing our way of thinking how the game should be played really going to kill ESO? Should us Magicka players continue to be the side item in a PVP combo and be happy with bowing down to our mighty Stam players to keep the game afloat? Honestly I would rather take it for the team and continue magicka being marginal in PVP then to push people out the door. Sorc hate is to not be discussed here.

    What are your thoughts?

    new Eclipse is total crap OP ****.
    And 2 more dots for every class means Extended ritual is op thing now.
    It's like to make templar allmightly.

    Templar will be most hatefull class with a time for sure with these changes
    Edited by JusticeSouldier on August 14, 2019 10:12AM
    PC EU, all classes
  • maxjapank
    maxjapank
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    I have been watching a couple streamers the past couple of days and the Templar hate keeps on coming! I am having a hard time deciding if their game angst is justified or are they more unhappy that stamina isn't god anymore.

    FYI I have played a Mag Templar for years - I like cheese but not in my game play. I also really like my Stamplar too. Is changing our way of thinking how the game should be played really going to kill ESO? Should us Magicka players continue to be the side item in a PVP combo and be happy with bowing down to our mighty Stam players to keep the game afloat? Honestly I would rather take it for the team and continue magicka being marginal in PVP then to push people out the door. Sorc hate is to not be discussed here.

    What are your thoughts?

    new Eclipse is total crap OP ****.
    And 2 more dots for every class means Extended ritual is op thing now.
    It's like to make templar allmightly.

    Templar will be most hatefull class with a time for sure with these changes

    Eclipse has many bugs. And it's not Extended that is op. It's the dot meta. Once again. It's the dot meta that is op.
  • technohic
    technohic
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    Without getting into it with someone who has whined about templar for a long time, I will say

    Buffing both rituals healing was uncalled for. Ritual of Retribution could have used more reason to slot it, but you probably could have given it the HOT and removed the damage or snare. Could remove the snare from ER pre buff and it still would have been used.

    Not a fan of what they did to eclipse but I do think it's only powerful so long as the people fighting it are not in the DOT meta and have not picked up a cleanse as well.

    I'd be totally fine with reverting these last changes. Especially in exchange for solar barrage but even without. in the end though; in the land with no light, the blind men see. Something like that. Well; in the land of DOTs...
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  • JusticeSouldier
    JusticeSouldier
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    maxjapank wrote: »
    I have been watching a couple streamers the past couple of days and the Templar hate keeps on coming! I am having a hard time deciding if their game angst is justified or are they more unhappy that stamina isn't god anymore.

    FYI I have played a Mag Templar for years - I like cheese but not in my game play. I also really like my Stamplar too. Is changing our way of thinking how the game should be played really going to kill ESO? Should us Magicka players continue to be the side item in a PVP combo and be happy with bowing down to our mighty Stam players to keep the game afloat? Honestly I would rather take it for the team and continue magicka being marginal in PVP then to push people out the door. Sorc hate is to not be discussed here.

    What are your thoughts?

    new Eclipse is total crap OP ****.
    And 2 more dots for every class means Extended ritual is op thing now.
    It's like to make templar allmightly.

    Templar will be most hatefull class with a time for sure with these changes

    Eclipse has many bugs. And it's not Extended that is op. It's the dot meta. Once again. It's the dot meta that is op.

    Problem is both things. Especially in combination. Not matter if bugged now or not, it's mechanics. And they are unhealthy
    Edited by JusticeSouldier on August 14, 2019 11:12AM
    PC EU, all classes
  • MaxJrFTW
    MaxJrFTW
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    ecru wrote: »
    MaxJrFTW wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    LOL holy *** what a tremendous waste of time that thread was. a bunch of very bad templar mains insisted that ackshyually, ele weapon does more damage than sweep, and all it took to shut down their whining about how bad their other overtuned class ability was, was to link a parse of sweep doing *** 40% more damage than ele weapon. let me remind every very good templar main with a very large brain that sweep and jabs do as much damage as blastbones and warden shalks. if you can't manage to make a spammable ability that does that much damage do more damage than ele weapon, you ain't good at ESO.

    Is that why PvE magplars use ele weapon over sweep? It's not rocket science, 1 sec cast time vs instant dmg.

    no, pve magplars use ele weapon over sweep because ele weapon is ranged, and sweep is costly, so you can't sustain with it. that does not mean ele weapon does more damage than sweep, it just means that it's a more efficient choice when playing as a ranged dps in a trial. if you're able to sustain, ele weapon does not do nearly as much damage as sweep.

    let me ask you this--would a warden use ele weapon over shalks, or a necro use it over blastbones? no, not even close. priority on shalks and blastbones is way ahead of a spammable, whether it's ele weapon or something else.

    sweep does roughly 30-40% more damage (depending on how you calculate it, source/my parses from that thread: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6246918/#Comment_6246918) as ele weapon, and can effectively be weaved at about .85 channels/sec. on a very very good parse, you will be able to weave ele weapon about .93-94/sec. it's very clear which ability will do more damage, provided the player in question can actually weave the channel well, has 100% uptime in melee, and can sustain it. i think actually weaving it fast enough is where a lot of people have """""""issues""""""".

    i guess you can look at this another way--does one cast of ele weapon do as much damage as shalks or blastbones? clearly it doesn't, and sweep does about the same damage as those abilities, but is a 1s channel, meaning it can't be weaved as fast (but almost).

    Ele weapon is more expensive than sweep, stop embarrassing yourself. Sweep being melee is not detrimental at all because it heals a lot PvE. In PvE stamina is always favored over magicka anyways, and stamina classes are melee. Not to mention that in PvE you always stand in melee range whether you are melee or ranged. This isn't WoW...

    https://www.esologs.com/zone/rankings/12#boss=44&class=Templar&spec=MagickaDPS&partition=1

    Only 9 parses on the top 100 aren't using ele weapon. 7 of them are using force pulse, 1 is not using a spammable, only 1 is using sweep.
    Edited by MaxJrFTW on August 14, 2019 11:33AM
    "I don't know you, and I don't care to know you."
    ―Ulrich Leland, 3E 433
  • Moonsorrow
    Moonsorrow
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    Hi, remember me saying at first week of PTS that templars will be the next big FOTM..

    And, here we are now. All FOTM people rolling templars left and right. :joy:

    All the forumplars who kept saying "nah, i dont see templar becoming fotm we are so weak.." , well - told ya.

    But to this topic, gonna be playing mostly my Necro this patch and hunting them holy fotmplars and collecting sweet sweet AP. Unholy war has been declared! You will die even to my buggy necro skills. Make corpse puppets out of all fotmplars! (rp intensifies) :p

    PS. I do not want templar to be nerfed, they have earned their hour of glory also like all other classes. At the next big patch they will get nerfed and something else made the next big FOTM. So until then, either become fotmplar or make a build that can deal with lots of them around.

    Carry on and have fun everyone! :)

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    AP for the EP!
  • maxjapank
    maxjapank
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    maxjapank wrote: »
    I have been watching a couple streamers the past couple of days and the Templar hate keeps on coming! I am having a hard time deciding if their game angst is justified or are they more unhappy that stamina isn't god anymore.

    FYI I have played a Mag Templar for years - I like cheese but not in my game play. I also really like my Stamplar too. Is changing our way of thinking how the game should be played really going to kill ESO? Should us Magicka players continue to be the side item in a PVP combo and be happy with bowing down to our mighty Stam players to keep the game afloat? Honestly I would rather take it for the team and continue magicka being marginal in PVP then to push people out the door. Sorc hate is to not be discussed here.

    What are your thoughts?

    new Eclipse is total crap OP ****.
    And 2 more dots for every class means Extended ritual is op thing now.
    It's like to make templar allmightly.

    Templar will be most hatefull class with a time for sure with these changes

    Eclipse has many bugs. And it's not Extended that is op. It's the dot meta. Once again. It's the dot meta that is op.

    Problem is both things. Especially in combination. Not matter if bugged now or not, it's mechanics. And they are unhealthy

    I suggest you read up on Eclipse if it's giving you a problem. And again. Nothing really changed for templars other than that.
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