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Puncturing Sweep

  • No_Division
    No_Division
    ✭✭✭
    Is it even worth at this point to ask someone (... @Cinbri ) to show detailed data on PTS versus Live (or just against with Evasion versus not with Evasion) the effects of ZOS not making Puncturing Strike and Morphs an exception to this rule?

    As of right now, you have resistances, flat mitigation sets against damage, Major and Minor protection, Major Evasion, Maim to reduce flat damage of Puncturing Strike.
    Next you factor in the other nuances ZOS refuses to fix (and now again purposely reverted!) Snares, CC bugs, LoS issues, Roots and now the targeting camera fix for PS has been reverted to the targeting system that wasn't working for anyone since they made mobility and "faster action with more movement and less standing around" a priority in the gameplay.

    I am not sure what to really expect anymore from ZOS in regard to the Templar Class. Where are they going with it?? What is their end-game with the class?? Are they phasing Beta classes out - this seems most ideal considering they are slowly introducing new classes that are at best reworks of Beta classes. We see patch after patch that new classes are getting things the Beta classes have been asking for for 5 years and massively nerf the Betas into the ground as a compensation...

    You don't need cinbri. take a 4300 tolltip, multiply by battlespirit, then 20/10 CP and finally 10% armor after basic penetraition. You get 1941 dmg per hit. Now multiply evasion, new amount is 1455.

    Problem is, CP is likely messing around with the dmg because zos never adjusted that bug and its been 5 DLCs since then which either made it worse or fixed it. But I get 900 jabs hits so I know CP is messing it up lol.
  • Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
    Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
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    ✭✭✭✭
    Syiccal wrote: »
    The fact that every single stam class will now have major evasion should point to sweeps being reworked, a 25% reduction before resistances etc will mean sweeps and jabs will hit like wet noodles - if it even lands!

    rally/momentum does not get major evasion anymore, only minor endurace, so what are you talking about "every single stam class will now have major evasion"?
    Edited by Lightspeedflashb14_ESO on July 30, 2019 8:09PM
  • EtTuBrutus
    EtTuBrutus
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Every single stam character of worth had evasion vd anyway
  • Syiccal
    Syiccal
    ✭✭✭✭
    Syiccal wrote: »
    The fact that every single stam class will now have major evasion should point to sweeps being reworked, a 25% reduction before resistances etc will mean sweeps and jabs will hit like wet noodles - if it even lands!

    rally/momentum does not get major evasion anymore, only minor endurace, so what are you talking about "every single stam class will now have major evasion"?

    Have I missed this on pts notes, if I did then my mistake
  • Jabbs_Giggity
    Jabbs_Giggity
    ✭✭✭✭
    Is it even worth at this point to ask someone (... @Cinbri ) to show detailed data on PTS versus Live (or just against with Evasion versus not with Evasion) the effects of ZOS not making Puncturing Strike and Morphs an exception to this rule?

    As of right now, you have resistances, flat mitigation sets against damage, Major and Minor protection, Major Evasion, Maim to reduce flat damage of Puncturing Strike.
    Next you factor in the other nuances ZOS refuses to fix (and now again purposely reverted!) Snares, CC bugs, LoS issues, Roots and now the targeting camera fix for PS has been reverted to the targeting system that wasn't working for anyone since they made mobility and "faster action with more movement and less standing around" a priority in the gameplay.

    I am not sure what to really expect anymore from ZOS in regard to the Templar Class. Where are they going with it?? What is their end-game with the class?? Are they phasing Beta classes out - this seems most ideal considering they are slowly introducing new classes that are at best reworks of Beta classes. We see patch after patch that new classes are getting things the Beta classes have been asking for for 5 years and massively nerf the Betas into the ground as a compensation...

    You don't need cinbri. take a 4300 tolltip, multiply by battlespirit, then 20/10 CP and finally 10% armor after basic penetraition. You get 1941 dmg per hit. Now multiply evasion, new amount is 1455.

    Problem is, CP is likely messing around with the dmg because zos never adjusted that bug and its been 5 DLCs since then which either made it worse or fixed it. But I get 900 jabs hits so I know CP is messing it up lol.

    Fair enough. Just was wondering if actual documentation via screenshots in game and/or video demonstration would allow us to push it further on to ZOS's radar.
    Xbox One X - NA
    CP 910+


    ~Mains~
    Jabs Giggity - Stamplar
    Fap to my Sweeps - Magplar
    George W AmBush - Stamblade

    ~Alts~
    I Got Electrolytes - Magsorc
    Rhaegeon - MagDK
    Covetous Shen - Magblade - Master Crafter
    Cream Pie Jewelz - Stamden
  • Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
    Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    Syiccal wrote: »
    Syiccal wrote: »
    The fact that every single stam class will now have major evasion should point to sweeps being reworked, a 25% reduction before resistances etc will mean sweeps and jabs will hit like wet noodles - if it even lands!

    rally/momentum does not get major evasion anymore, only minor endurace, so what are you talking about "every single stam class will now have major evasion"?

    Have I missed this on pts notes, if I did then my mistake

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/486293/pts-patch-notes-v5-1-2
    Momentum: This ability and its morphs no longer grant Major Evasion for their duration, and will instead grant Minor Endurance.

    Developer Comment:

    Originally, the Major Evasion was meant to grant Two Handed a more natural source of Major Evasion, a powerful tool that is meant to help Stamina-focused characters survive deadly attacks that bypass their primary means of survival, Roll Dodge. However, this led to a situation where Momentum felt too good to pass up, and was eclipsing other skills that also grant the bonus.
  • Delparis
    Delparis
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Is it even worth at this point to ask someone (... @Cinbri ) to show detailed data on PTS versus Live (or just against with Evasion versus not with Evasion) the effects of ZOS not making Puncturing Strike and Morphs an exception to this rule?

    As of right now, you have resistances, flat mitigation sets against damage, Major and Minor protection, Major Evasion, Maim to reduce flat damage of Puncturing Strike.
    Next you factor in the other nuances ZOS refuses to fix (and now again purposely reverted!) Snares, CC bugs, LoS issues, Roots and now the targeting camera fix for PS has been reverted to the targeting system that wasn't working for anyone since they made mobility and "faster action with more movement and less standing around" a priority in the gameplay.

    I am not sure what to really expect anymore from ZOS in regard to the Templar Class. Where are they going with it?? What is their end-game with the class?? Are they phasing Beta classes out - this seems most ideal considering they are slowly introducing new classes that are at best reworks of Beta classes. We see patch after patch that new classes are getting things the Beta classes have been asking for for 5 years and massively nerf the Betas into the ground as a compensation...

    You don't need cinbri. take a 4300 tolltip, multiply by battlespirit, then 20/10 CP and finally 10% armor after basic penetraition. You get 1941 dmg per hit. Now multiply evasion, new amount is 1455.

    Problem is, CP is likely messing around with the dmg because zos never adjusted that bug and its been 5 DLCs since then which either made it worse or fixed it. But I get 900 jabs hits so I know CP is messing it up lol.

    Fair enough. Just was wondering if actual documentation via screenshots in game and/or video demonstration would allow us to push it further on to ZOS's radar.

    you should expect a major hit to jabs because of the new evasion morph.
    les aoe dmg + speed won't let you hit anything
    ZOS don't fix old bugs, they harbor them
  • Kidgangster101
    Kidgangster101
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    UppGRAYxDD wrote: »
    So are Jabs and Sweeps gonna proc major evasion on enemies running Elude(shuffle morph)? If so, then ZoS needs to add the 70% snare to the first jab/sweep just so we can land maybe more then two.

    Yes it is affected by major evasion (you do 25% less damage even on one enemy)
  • ecru
    ecru
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Destruent wrote: »
    @Ecru, just check out magplar parses on esologs...i just searched them for anyone using sweeps...there's none. are all those templars bad?
    Just do some proper tests and show in a real parse that it's outdamaging ele-weapon (try on target dummy)...not just throwing some numbers.

    yeah dude, if you had read the rest of my post i suggested that there were good reasons not to use it as a magplar. let me quote myself since literally everyone in this thread completely ignored it to make their point.
    ecru wrote: »
    there are reasons not to use it (like the fact that it's melee, or it's high cost making it difficult to sustain), but if it was ranged, or if it had a lower cost, or if it wasn't a channel (or all three), it would probably have to do about 40% less damage than it does now, like every other spammable in the game.





    it's really convenient to respond to the first part and not the second. there is a reason ranged magicka dd's don't use sweep, but it isn't because it does less damage than ele weapon, it's because it's melee and has a very high cost.

    what do you think stamplar parses look like? they look like this:

    18-20% from jabs, which no other class touches with their own spammables or any other spammables. jabs is roughly equal to sweep in how much more damage it does than other stamina spammables, but it has a much lower cost and is melee so stamplars use it. if the ability were so bad, stamplars would be using crushing weapon or some other garbage.
    Syiccal wrote: »
    The fact that every single stam class will now have major evasion should point to sweeps being reworked, a 25% reduction before resistances etc will mean sweeps and jabs will hit like wet noodles - if it even lands!

    no it won't. sweep and jabs WILL STILL DO MORE DAMAGE PER CAST THAN EVERY OTHER SPAMMABLE ABILITY IN THE ENTIRE GAME EVEN IF YOUR TARGET HAS MAJOR EVASION. the damage is roughly equal to necro's blastbones (at MOST every third gcd, usually every fourth or fifth in pvp), or warden shalks. it does roughly 40-50% more damage than other spammables like ele weapon, crushing weapon, flurry, force shock, etc. it will also still do more damage than the newly buffed wrecking blow against major evasion. what more do you want?

    should we buff warden shalks and necro blastbones too, since they're also effected by major evasion, but can only be casted once every three gcds? how much should they be buffed? i swear the things i read here are amazingly out of touch with what is actually happening in the game.
    Muzzick wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    Muzzick wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    Muzzick wrote: »
    rdnqgilrqbzl.jpg
    ecru wrote: »
    Muzzick wrote: »
    The damage from sweeps is pretty comparable to other skills that are properly weaved.

    PjhvEmB.jpg

    this is not true, it can be weaved about 95% as fast as an ability without a cast time if you're competent. i almost never touch my magplar either so i don't have a ton of experience with the ability. also, jabs is almost 20% of a stamplar's dummy parse.

    All I was saying was that sweeps doesn't vastly outdamage other spammables, which I think weave slightly better

    lol

    the parse wasn't supposed to be indicative of it's damage, i have no idea what gear i was even wearing when i did that. the point was that because it does 40% more damage than most other spammables, it does actually vastly out damage other spammables because it can be weaved nearly as fast.

    Where's the 40% difference? Put on your best gear and see if you do 40% more

    ability a does 40% more damage than ability b
    ability a can be weaved 95% as fast as ability b
    how much more damage does ability a do than ability b?

    well??????????????????????///////////////???????????//////

    lol.

    Prove this with a parse you haven't proved anything
    ecru wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    Muzzick wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    Muzzick wrote: »
    rdnqgilrqbzl.jpg
    ecru wrote: »
    Muzzick wrote: »
    The damage from sweeps is pretty comparable to other skills that are properly weaved.

    PjhvEmB.jpg

    this is not true, it can be weaved about 95% as fast as an ability without a cast time if you're competent. i almost never touch my magplar either so i don't have a ton of experience with the ability. also, jabs is almost 20% of a stamplar's dummy parse.

    All I was saying was that sweeps doesn't vastly outdamage other spammables, which I think weave slightly better

    lol

    the parse wasn't supposed to be indicative of it's damage, i have no idea what gear i was even wearing when i did that. the point was that because it does 40% more damage than most other spammables, it does actually vastly out damage other spammables because it can be weaved nearly as fast.

    Where's the 40% difference? Put on your best gear and see if you do 40% more

    ability a does 40% more damage than ability b
    ability a can be weaved 95% as fast as ability b
    how much more damage does ability a do than ability b?

    well??????????????????????///////////////???????????//////

    lol.

    post your raid parse lol

    basic math is apparently really hard.

    763 - base damage of ele weapon
    1196 - base damage of puncturing sweep, which is 56% more damage

    i'm sorry that you can't weave the ability properly, but other people can and the fact that you personally (or other people in this thread) need a crutch to stand on to make it work doesn't mean that an ability is bad, it just means that you're bad at using it.

    there are reasons not to use it (like the fact that it's melee, or it's high cost making it difficult to sustain), but if it was ranged, or if it had a lower cost, or if it wasn't a channel (or all three), it would probably have to do about 40% less damage than it does now, like every other spammable in the game.

    sweep/jabs had it's cast time reduced by 100ms and the 200ms delay after casting a channeled ability was removed, making it 300ms faster, with no change in damage. some of you need to go hit a dummy for awhile and learn how your own abilities actually work.

    Lol, you are telling others they can't hit a dummy yet you can't post a parse of your own.

    Let me guess, you're going to reply to this with more mathematics instead of posting a parse.

    i haven't seen a single relevant parse posted yet aside from the one from myself i linked earlier demonstrating that sweep can be weaved about 95% as fast as non cast time abilities. parses where sweep was used a total of three times is not a demonstration of anything aside from someone not using sweep.

    why don't magplars in pvp use ele weapon instead of sweep? gee, i dunno, maybe it's because sweep does 56% more damage than ele weapon? no, that couldn't be it. surely there is another reason.

    i'll link a parse later on lol.
    Edited by ecru on July 30, 2019 11:49PM
    Gryphon Heart
  • EtTuBrutus
    EtTuBrutus
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ecru wrote: »
    Destruent wrote: »
    @Ecru, just check out magplar parses on esologs...i just searched them for anyone using sweeps...there's none. are all those templars bad?
    Just do some proper tests and show in a real parse that it's outdamaging ele-weapon (try on target dummy)...not just throwing some numbers.

    yeah dude, if you had read the rest of my post i suggested that there were good reasons not to use it as a magplar. let me quote myself since literally everyone in this thread completely ignored it to make their point.
    ecru wrote: »
    there are reasons not to use it (like the fact that it's melee, or it's high cost making it difficult to sustain), but if it was ranged, or if it had a lower cost, or if it wasn't a channel (or all three), it would probably have to do about 40% less damage than it does now, like every other spammable in the game.





    it's really convenient to respond to the first part and not the second. there is a reason ranged magicka dd's don't use sweep, but it isn't because it does less damage than ele weapon, it's because it's melee and has a very high cost.

    what do you think stamplar parses look like? they look like this:

    18-20% from jabs, which no other class touches with their own spammables or any other spammables. jabs is roughly equal to sweep in how much more damage it does than other stamina spammables, but it has a much lower cost and is melee so stamplars use it. if the ability were so bad, stamplars would be using crushing weapon or some other garbage.
    Syiccal wrote: »
    The fact that every single stam class will now have major evasion should point to sweeps being reworked, a 25% reduction before resistances etc will mean sweeps and jabs will hit like wet noodles - if it even lands!

    no it won't. sweep and jabs WILL STILL DO MORE DAMAGE PER CAST THAN EVERY OTHER SPAMMABLE ABILITY IN THE ENTIRE GAME EVEN IF YOUR TARGET HAS MAJOR EVASION. the damage is roughly equal to necro's blastbones (at MOST every third gcd, usually every fourth or fifth in pvp), or warden shalks. it does roughly 40-50% more damage than other spammables like ele weapon, crushing weapon, flurry, force shock, etc. it will also still do more damage than the newly buffed wrecking blow against major evasion. what more do you want?

    should we buff warden shalks and necro blastbones too, since they're also effected by major evasion, but can only be casted once every three gcds? how much should they be buffed? i swear the things i read here are amazingly out of touch with what is actually happening in the game.
    Muzzick wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    Muzzick wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    Muzzick wrote: »
    rdnqgilrqbzl.jpg
    ecru wrote: »
    Muzzick wrote: »
    The damage from sweeps is pretty comparable to other skills that are properly weaved.

    PjhvEmB.jpg

    this is not true, it can be weaved about 95% as fast as an ability without a cast time if you're competent. i almost never touch my magplar either so i don't have a ton of experience with the ability. also, jabs is almost 20% of a stamplar's dummy parse.

    All I was saying was that sweeps doesn't vastly outdamage other spammables, which I think weave slightly better

    lol

    the parse wasn't supposed to be indicative of it's damage, i have no idea what gear i was even wearing when i did that. the point was that because it does 40% more damage than most other spammables, it does actually vastly out damage other spammables because it can be weaved nearly as fast.

    Where's the 40% difference? Put on your best gear and see if you do 40% more

    ability a does 40% more damage than ability b
    ability a can be weaved 95% as fast as ability b
    how much more damage does ability a do than ability b?

    well??????????????????????///////////////???????????//////

    lol.

    Prove this with a parse you haven't proved anything
    ecru wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    Muzzick wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    Muzzick wrote: »
    rdnqgilrqbzl.jpg
    ecru wrote: »
    Muzzick wrote: »
    The damage from sweeps is pretty comparable to other skills that are properly weaved.

    PjhvEmB.jpg

    this is not true, it can be weaved about 95% as fast as an ability without a cast time if you're competent. i almost never touch my magplar either so i don't have a ton of experience with the ability. also, jabs is almost 20% of a stamplar's dummy parse.

    All I was saying was that sweeps doesn't vastly outdamage other spammables, which I think weave slightly better

    lol

    the parse wasn't supposed to be indicative of it's damage, i have no idea what gear i was even wearing when i did that. the point was that because it does 40% more damage than most other spammables, it does actually vastly out damage other spammables because it can be weaved nearly as fast.

    Where's the 40% difference? Put on your best gear and see if you do 40% more

    ability a does 40% more damage than ability b
    ability a can be weaved 95% as fast as ability b
    how much more damage does ability a do than ability b?

    well??????????????????????///////////////???????????//////

    lol.

    post your raid parse lol

    basic math is apparently really hard.

    763 - base damage of ele weapon
    1196 - base damage of puncturing sweep, which is 56% more damage

    i'm sorry that you can't weave the ability properly, but other people can and the fact that you personally (or other people in this thread) need a crutch to stand on to make it work doesn't mean that an ability is bad, it just means that you're bad at using it.

    there are reasons not to use it (like the fact that it's melee, or it's high cost making it difficult to sustain), but if it was ranged, or if it had a lower cost, or if it wasn't a channel (or all three), it would probably have to do about 40% less damage than it does now, like every other spammable in the game.

    sweep/jabs had it's cast time reduced by 100ms and the 200ms delay after casting a channeled ability was removed, making it 300ms faster, with no change in damage. some of you need to go hit a dummy for awhile and learn how your own abilities actually work.

    Lol, you are telling others they can't hit a dummy yet you can't post a parse of your own.

    Let me guess, you're going to reply to this with more mathematics instead of posting a parse.

    i haven't seen a single relevant parse posted yet aside from the one from myself i linked earlier demonstrating that sweep can be weaved about 95% as fast as non cast time abilities. parses where sweep was used a total of three times is not a demonstration of anything aside from someone not using sweep.

    why don't magplars in pvp use ele weapon instead of sweep? gee, i dunno, maybe it's because sweep does 56% more damage than ele weapon? no, that couldn't be it. surely there is another reason.

    i'll link a parse later on lol.

    Ive never seen a 7 k sweeps on any of my characters recaps. That's low for wrecking blow AND wrecking blow stuns too. Your comparisons are fractions of the reality of how skills work.

    Magplars in pvp WERE literally taking other spells bc of how bad it can be against evasion, movement, cc, etc. Rangeplar is very strong and more reliable than melee actually. With the change to toppling, melee magplar is viable again so you're seeing it more.

    You can literally be STOPPED while casting it. It's great spending 2.9k magicka only to have it do 1/4th off the damage bc of an oncoming stun.
  • ecru
    ecru
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    EtTuBrutus wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    Destruent wrote: »
    @Ecru, just check out magplar parses on esologs...i just searched them for anyone using sweeps...there's none. are all those templars bad?
    Just do some proper tests and show in a real parse that it's outdamaging ele-weapon (try on target dummy)...not just throwing some numbers.

    yeah dude, if you had read the rest of my post i suggested that there were good reasons not to use it as a magplar. let me quote myself since literally everyone in this thread completely ignored it to make their point.
    ecru wrote: »
    there are reasons not to use it (like the fact that it's melee, or it's high cost making it difficult to sustain), but if it was ranged, or if it had a lower cost, or if it wasn't a channel (or all three), it would probably have to do about 40% less damage than it does now, like every other spammable in the game.





    it's really convenient to respond to the first part and not the second. there is a reason ranged magicka dd's don't use sweep, but it isn't because it does less damage than ele weapon, it's because it's melee and has a very high cost.

    what do you think stamplar parses look like? they look like this:

    18-20% from jabs, which no other class touches with their own spammables or any other spammables. jabs is roughly equal to sweep in how much more damage it does than other stamina spammables, but it has a much lower cost and is melee so stamplars use it. if the ability were so bad, stamplars would be using crushing weapon or some other garbage.
    Syiccal wrote: »
    The fact that every single stam class will now have major evasion should point to sweeps being reworked, a 25% reduction before resistances etc will mean sweeps and jabs will hit like wet noodles - if it even lands!

    no it won't. sweep and jabs WILL STILL DO MORE DAMAGE PER CAST THAN EVERY OTHER SPAMMABLE ABILITY IN THE ENTIRE GAME EVEN IF YOUR TARGET HAS MAJOR EVASION. the damage is roughly equal to necro's blastbones (at MOST every third gcd, usually every fourth or fifth in pvp), or warden shalks. it does roughly 40-50% more damage than other spammables like ele weapon, crushing weapon, flurry, force shock, etc. it will also still do more damage than the newly buffed wrecking blow against major evasion. what more do you want?

    should we buff warden shalks and necro blastbones too, since they're also effected by major evasion, but can only be casted once every three gcds? how much should they be buffed? i swear the things i read here are amazingly out of touch with what is actually happening in the game.
    Muzzick wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    Muzzick wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    Muzzick wrote: »
    rdnqgilrqbzl.jpg
    ecru wrote: »
    Muzzick wrote: »
    The damage from sweeps is pretty comparable to other skills that are properly weaved.

    PjhvEmB.jpg

    this is not true, it can be weaved about 95% as fast as an ability without a cast time if you're competent. i almost never touch my magplar either so i don't have a ton of experience with the ability. also, jabs is almost 20% of a stamplar's dummy parse.

    All I was saying was that sweeps doesn't vastly outdamage other spammables, which I think weave slightly better

    lol

    the parse wasn't supposed to be indicative of it's damage, i have no idea what gear i was even wearing when i did that. the point was that because it does 40% more damage than most other spammables, it does actually vastly out damage other spammables because it can be weaved nearly as fast.

    Where's the 40% difference? Put on your best gear and see if you do 40% more

    ability a does 40% more damage than ability b
    ability a can be weaved 95% as fast as ability b
    how much more damage does ability a do than ability b?

    well??????????????????????///////////////???????????//////

    lol.

    Prove this with a parse you haven't proved anything
    ecru wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    Muzzick wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    Muzzick wrote: »
    rdnqgilrqbzl.jpg
    ecru wrote: »
    Muzzick wrote: »
    The damage from sweeps is pretty comparable to other skills that are properly weaved.

    PjhvEmB.jpg

    this is not true, it can be weaved about 95% as fast as an ability without a cast time if you're competent. i almost never touch my magplar either so i don't have a ton of experience with the ability. also, jabs is almost 20% of a stamplar's dummy parse.

    All I was saying was that sweeps doesn't vastly outdamage other spammables, which I think weave slightly better

    lol

    the parse wasn't supposed to be indicative of it's damage, i have no idea what gear i was even wearing when i did that. the point was that because it does 40% more damage than most other spammables, it does actually vastly out damage other spammables because it can be weaved nearly as fast.

    Where's the 40% difference? Put on your best gear and see if you do 40% more

    ability a does 40% more damage than ability b
    ability a can be weaved 95% as fast as ability b
    how much more damage does ability a do than ability b?

    well??????????????????????///////////////???????????//////

    lol.

    post your raid parse lol

    basic math is apparently really hard.

    763 - base damage of ele weapon
    1196 - base damage of puncturing sweep, which is 56% more damage

    i'm sorry that you can't weave the ability properly, but other people can and the fact that you personally (or other people in this thread) need a crutch to stand on to make it work doesn't mean that an ability is bad, it just means that you're bad at using it.

    there are reasons not to use it (like the fact that it's melee, or it's high cost making it difficult to sustain), but if it was ranged, or if it had a lower cost, or if it wasn't a channel (or all three), it would probably have to do about 40% less damage than it does now, like every other spammable in the game.

    sweep/jabs had it's cast time reduced by 100ms and the 200ms delay after casting a channeled ability was removed, making it 300ms faster, with no change in damage. some of you need to go hit a dummy for awhile and learn how your own abilities actually work.

    Lol, you are telling others they can't hit a dummy yet you can't post a parse of your own.

    Let me guess, you're going to reply to this with more mathematics instead of posting a parse.

    i haven't seen a single relevant parse posted yet aside from the one from myself i linked earlier demonstrating that sweep can be weaved about 95% as fast as non cast time abilities. parses where sweep was used a total of three times is not a demonstration of anything aside from someone not using sweep.

    why don't magplars in pvp use ele weapon instead of sweep? gee, i dunno, maybe it's because sweep does 56% more damage than ele weapon? no, that couldn't be it. surely there is another reason.

    i'll link a parse later on lol.

    Ive never seen a 7 k sweeps on any of my characters recaps. That's low for wrecking blow AND wrecking blow stuns too. Your comparisons are fractions of the reality of how skills work.

    Magplars in pvp WERE literally taking other spells bc of how bad it can be against evasion, movement, cc, etc. Rangeplar is very strong and more reliable than melee actually. With the change to toppling, melee magplar is viable again so you're seeing it more.

    You can literally be STOPPED while casting it. It's great spending 2.9k magicka only to have it do 1/4th off the damage bc of an oncoming stun.

    dude it doesn't matter what you've seen. the ability doesn't magically do less damage because it's convenient for your argument to somehow get it buffed so that it'll do end up doing more damage than blastbones and shalks (lol). it will still do more damage than any other spammable against evasion, period. it's extremely high damage is what makes it good, "it's melee so i can't use it very well because i'm not good at melee" is not a very good counter-argument towards that.

    it seems to me what templars want is to have the highest damage spammable in the game with absolutely no drawbacks whatsoever. is that fair to other classes? no, not really. why should you have an instant ability that does as much damage as shalks that doesn't have some kind of counter? if it were any easier to use it would be completely broken.
    Edited by ecru on July 31, 2019 12:11AM
    Gryphon Heart
  • Muzzick
    Muzzick
    ✭✭✭✭
    ecru wrote: »
    EtTuBrutus wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    Destruent wrote: »
    @Ecru, just check out magplar parses on esologs...i just searched them for anyone using sweeps...there's none. are all those templars bad?
    Just do some proper tests and show in a real parse that it's outdamaging ele-weapon (try on target dummy)...not just throwing some numbers.

    yeah dude, if you had read the rest of my post i suggested that there were good reasons not to use it as a magplar. let me quote myself since literally everyone in this thread completely ignored it to make their point.
    ecru wrote: »
    there are reasons not to use it (like the fact that it's melee, or it's high cost making it difficult to sustain), but if it was ranged, or if it had a lower cost, or if it wasn't a channel (or all three), it would probably have to do about 40% less damage than it does now, like every other spammable in the game.





    it's really convenient to respond to the first part and not the second. there is a reason ranged magicka dd's don't use sweep, but it isn't because it does less damage than ele weapon, it's because it's melee and has a very high cost.

    what do you think stamplar parses look like? they look like this:

    18-20% from jabs, which no other class touches with their own spammables or any other spammables. jabs is roughly equal to sweep in how much more damage it does than other stamina spammables, but it has a much lower cost and is melee so stamplars use it. if the ability were so bad, stamplars would be using crushing weapon or some other garbage.
    Syiccal wrote: »
    The fact that every single stam class will now have major evasion should point to sweeps being reworked, a 25% reduction before resistances etc will mean sweeps and jabs will hit like wet noodles - if it even lands!

    no it won't. sweep and jabs WILL STILL DO MORE DAMAGE PER CAST THAN EVERY OTHER SPAMMABLE ABILITY IN THE ENTIRE GAME EVEN IF YOUR TARGET HAS MAJOR EVASION. the damage is roughly equal to necro's blastbones (at MOST every third gcd, usually every fourth or fifth in pvp), or warden shalks. it does roughly 40-50% more damage than other spammables like ele weapon, crushing weapon, flurry, force shock, etc. it will also still do more damage than the newly buffed wrecking blow against major evasion. what more do you want?

    should we buff warden shalks and necro blastbones too, since they're also effected by major evasion, but can only be casted once every three gcds? how much should they be buffed? i swear the things i read here are amazingly out of touch with what is actually happening in the game.
    Muzzick wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    Muzzick wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    Muzzick wrote: »
    rdnqgilrqbzl.jpg
    ecru wrote: »
    Muzzick wrote: »
    The damage from sweeps is pretty comparable to other skills that are properly weaved.

    PjhvEmB.jpg

    this is not true, it can be weaved about 95% as fast as an ability without a cast time if you're competent. i almost never touch my magplar either so i don't have a ton of experience with the ability. also, jabs is almost 20% of a stamplar's dummy parse.

    All I was saying was that sweeps doesn't vastly outdamage other spammables, which I think weave slightly better

    lol

    the parse wasn't supposed to be indicative of it's damage, i have no idea what gear i was even wearing when i did that. the point was that because it does 40% more damage than most other spammables, it does actually vastly out damage other spammables because it can be weaved nearly as fast.

    Where's the 40% difference? Put on your best gear and see if you do 40% more

    ability a does 40% more damage than ability b
    ability a can be weaved 95% as fast as ability b
    how much more damage does ability a do than ability b?

    well??????????????????????///////////////???????????//////

    lol.

    Prove this with a parse you haven't proved anything
    ecru wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    Muzzick wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    Muzzick wrote: »
    rdnqgilrqbzl.jpg
    ecru wrote: »
    Muzzick wrote: »
    The damage from sweeps is pretty comparable to other skills that are properly weaved.

    PjhvEmB.jpg

    this is not true, it can be weaved about 95% as fast as an ability without a cast time if you're competent. i almost never touch my magplar either so i don't have a ton of experience with the ability. also, jabs is almost 20% of a stamplar's dummy parse.

    All I was saying was that sweeps doesn't vastly outdamage other spammables, which I think weave slightly better

    lol

    the parse wasn't supposed to be indicative of it's damage, i have no idea what gear i was even wearing when i did that. the point was that because it does 40% more damage than most other spammables, it does actually vastly out damage other spammables because it can be weaved nearly as fast.

    Where's the 40% difference? Put on your best gear and see if you do 40% more

    ability a does 40% more damage than ability b
    ability a can be weaved 95% as fast as ability b
    how much more damage does ability a do than ability b?

    well??????????????????????///////////////???????????//////

    lol.

    post your raid parse lol

    basic math is apparently really hard.

    763 - base damage of ele weapon
    1196 - base damage of puncturing sweep, which is 56% more damage

    i'm sorry that you can't weave the ability properly, but other people can and the fact that you personally (or other people in this thread) need a crutch to stand on to make it work doesn't mean that an ability is bad, it just means that you're bad at using it.

    there are reasons not to use it (like the fact that it's melee, or it's high cost making it difficult to sustain), but if it was ranged, or if it had a lower cost, or if it wasn't a channel (or all three), it would probably have to do about 40% less damage than it does now, like every other spammable in the game.

    sweep/jabs had it's cast time reduced by 100ms and the 200ms delay after casting a channeled ability was removed, making it 300ms faster, with no change in damage. some of you need to go hit a dummy for awhile and learn how your own abilities actually work.

    Lol, you are telling others they can't hit a dummy yet you can't post a parse of your own.

    Let me guess, you're going to reply to this with more mathematics instead of posting a parse.

    i haven't seen a single relevant parse posted yet aside from the one from myself i linked earlier demonstrating that sweep can be weaved about 95% as fast as non cast time abilities. parses where sweep was used a total of three times is not a demonstration of anything aside from someone not using sweep.

    why don't magplars in pvp use ele weapon instead of sweep? gee, i dunno, maybe it's because sweep does 56% more damage than ele weapon? no, that couldn't be it. surely there is another reason.

    i'll link a parse later on lol.

    Ive never seen a 7 k sweeps on any of my characters recaps. That's low for wrecking blow AND wrecking blow stuns too. Your comparisons are fractions of the reality of how skills work.

    Magplars in pvp WERE literally taking other spells bc of how bad it can be against evasion, movement, cc, etc. Rangeplar is very strong and more reliable than melee actually. With the change to toppling, melee magplar is viable again so you're seeing it more.

    You can literally be STOPPED while casting it. It's great spending 2.9k magicka only to have it do 1/4th off the damage bc of an oncoming stun.

    dude it doesn't matter what you've seen. the ability doesn't magically do less damage because it's convenient for your argument to somehow get it buffed so that it'll do end up doing more damage than blastbones and shalks (lol). it will still do more damage than any other spammable against evasion, period. it's extremely high damage is what makes it good, "it's melee so i can't use it very well because i'm not good at melee" is not a very good counter-argument towards that.

    it seems to me what templars want is to have the highest damage spammable in the game with absolutely no drawbacks whatsoever. is that fair to other classes? no, not really. why should you have an instant ability that does as much damage as shalks that doesn't have some kind of counter? if it were any easier to use it would be completely broken.

    You keep calling it the highest damage spammable, yet you posted a weak parse which didn't prove anything. If you were actually weaving 95% as well as other spammables weaved your damage would be higher with both sweeps and your light attacks. I basically posted the same damage with non trial gear spamming flurry and I'm an average player. And that's when taking into account your damage from burning light which could be obtained by other means. Your straight damage from sweeps was lower than mine. So for the millionth time please post a proper parse with just the spammable. You should be doing 50K by your claims of 40% more damage.
  • ecru
    ecru
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    man this is so boring

    iErNmMt.jpg

    bQuQl7O.jpg

    elEmEnTaL weApoN dOeS mOrE DaMagE tHaN PuNCtuRinG sWeEp

    i missed like two light attacks with sweep too because i haven't touched my magplar in awhile lol
    Muzzick wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    EtTuBrutus wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    Destruent wrote: »
    @Ecru, just check out magplar parses on esologs...i just searched them for anyone using sweeps...there's none. are all those templars bad?
    Just do some proper tests and show in a real parse that it's outdamaging ele-weapon (try on target dummy)...not just throwing some numbers.

    yeah dude, if you had read the rest of my post i suggested that there were good reasons not to use it as a magplar. let me quote myself since literally everyone in this thread completely ignored it to make their point.
    ecru wrote: »
    there are reasons not to use it (like the fact that it's melee, or it's high cost making it difficult to sustain), but if it was ranged, or if it had a lower cost, or if it wasn't a channel (or all three), it would probably have to do about 40% less damage than it does now, like every other spammable in the game.





    it's really convenient to respond to the first part and not the second. there is a reason ranged magicka dd's don't use sweep, but it isn't because it does less damage than ele weapon, it's because it's melee and has a very high cost.

    what do you think stamplar parses look like? they look like this:

    18-20% from jabs, which no other class touches with their own spammables or any other spammables. jabs is roughly equal to sweep in how much more damage it does than other stamina spammables, but it has a much lower cost and is melee so stamplars use it. if the ability were so bad, stamplars would be using crushing weapon or some other garbage.
    Syiccal wrote: »
    The fact that every single stam class will now have major evasion should point to sweeps being reworked, a 25% reduction before resistances etc will mean sweeps and jabs will hit like wet noodles - if it even lands!

    no it won't. sweep and jabs WILL STILL DO MORE DAMAGE PER CAST THAN EVERY OTHER SPAMMABLE ABILITY IN THE ENTIRE GAME EVEN IF YOUR TARGET HAS MAJOR EVASION. the damage is roughly equal to necro's blastbones (at MOST every third gcd, usually every fourth or fifth in pvp), or warden shalks. it does roughly 40-50% more damage than other spammables like ele weapon, crushing weapon, flurry, force shock, etc. it will also still do more damage than the newly buffed wrecking blow against major evasion. what more do you want?

    should we buff warden shalks and necro blastbones too, since they're also effected by major evasion, but can only be casted once every three gcds? how much should they be buffed? i swear the things i read here are amazingly out of touch with what is actually happening in the game.
    Muzzick wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    Muzzick wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    Muzzick wrote: »
    rdnqgilrqbzl.jpg
    ecru wrote: »
    Muzzick wrote: »
    The damage from sweeps is pretty comparable to other skills that are properly weaved.

    PjhvEmB.jpg

    this is not true, it can be weaved about 95% as fast as an ability without a cast time if you're competent. i almost never touch my magplar either so i don't have a ton of experience with the ability. also, jabs is almost 20% of a stamplar's dummy parse.

    All I was saying was that sweeps doesn't vastly outdamage other spammables, which I think weave slightly better

    lol

    the parse wasn't supposed to be indicative of it's damage, i have no idea what gear i was even wearing when i did that. the point was that because it does 40% more damage than most other spammables, it does actually vastly out damage other spammables because it can be weaved nearly as fast.

    Where's the 40% difference? Put on your best gear and see if you do 40% more

    ability a does 40% more damage than ability b
    ability a can be weaved 95% as fast as ability b
    how much more damage does ability a do than ability b?

    well??????????????????????///////////////???????????//////

    lol.

    Prove this with a parse you haven't proved anything
    ecru wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    Muzzick wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    Muzzick wrote: »
    rdnqgilrqbzl.jpg
    ecru wrote: »
    Muzzick wrote: »
    The damage from sweeps is pretty comparable to other skills that are properly weaved.

    PjhvEmB.jpg

    this is not true, it can be weaved about 95% as fast as an ability without a cast time if you're competent. i almost never touch my magplar either so i don't have a ton of experience with the ability. also, jabs is almost 20% of a stamplar's dummy parse.

    All I was saying was that sweeps doesn't vastly outdamage other spammables, which I think weave slightly better

    lol

    the parse wasn't supposed to be indicative of it's damage, i have no idea what gear i was even wearing when i did that. the point was that because it does 40% more damage than most other spammables, it does actually vastly out damage other spammables because it can be weaved nearly as fast.

    Where's the 40% difference? Put on your best gear and see if you do 40% more

    ability a does 40% more damage than ability b
    ability a can be weaved 95% as fast as ability b
    how much more damage does ability a do than ability b?

    well??????????????????????///////////////???????????//////

    lol.

    post your raid parse lol

    basic math is apparently really hard.

    763 - base damage of ele weapon
    1196 - base damage of puncturing sweep, which is 56% more damage

    i'm sorry that you can't weave the ability properly, but other people can and the fact that you personally (or other people in this thread) need a crutch to stand on to make it work doesn't mean that an ability is bad, it just means that you're bad at using it.

    there are reasons not to use it (like the fact that it's melee, or it's high cost making it difficult to sustain), but if it was ranged, or if it had a lower cost, or if it wasn't a channel (or all three), it would probably have to do about 40% less damage than it does now, like every other spammable in the game.

    sweep/jabs had it's cast time reduced by 100ms and the 200ms delay after casting a channeled ability was removed, making it 300ms faster, with no change in damage. some of you need to go hit a dummy for awhile and learn how your own abilities actually work.

    Lol, you are telling others they can't hit a dummy yet you can't post a parse of your own.

    Let me guess, you're going to reply to this with more mathematics instead of posting a parse.

    i haven't seen a single relevant parse posted yet aside from the one from myself i linked earlier demonstrating that sweep can be weaved about 95% as fast as non cast time abilities. parses where sweep was used a total of three times is not a demonstration of anything aside from someone not using sweep.

    why don't magplars in pvp use ele weapon instead of sweep? gee, i dunno, maybe it's because sweep does 56% more damage than ele weapon? no, that couldn't be it. surely there is another reason.

    i'll link a parse later on lol.

    Ive never seen a 7 k sweeps on any of my characters recaps. That's low for wrecking blow AND wrecking blow stuns too. Your comparisons are fractions of the reality of how skills work.

    Magplars in pvp WERE literally taking other spells bc of how bad it can be against evasion, movement, cc, etc. Rangeplar is very strong and more reliable than melee actually. With the change to toppling, melee magplar is viable again so you're seeing it more.

    You can literally be STOPPED while casting it. It's great spending 2.9k magicka only to have it do 1/4th off the damage bc of an oncoming stun.

    dude it doesn't matter what you've seen. the ability doesn't magically do less damage because it's convenient for your argument to somehow get it buffed so that it'll do end up doing more damage than blastbones and shalks (lol). it will still do more damage than any other spammable against evasion, period. it's extremely high damage is what makes it good, "it's melee so i can't use it very well because i'm not good at melee" is not a very good counter-argument towards that.

    it seems to me what templars want is to have the highest damage spammable in the game with absolutely no drawbacks whatsoever. is that fair to other classes? no, not really. why should you have an instant ability that does as much damage as shalks that doesn't have some kind of counter? if it were any easier to use it would be completely broken.

    You keep calling it the highest damage spammable, yet you posted a weak parse which didn't prove anything. If you were actually weaving 95% as well as other spammables weaved your damage would be higher with both sweeps and your light attacks. I basically posted the same damage with non trial gear spamming flurry and I'm an average player. And that's when taking into account your damage from burning light which could be obtained by other means. Your straight damage from sweeps was lower than mine. So for the millionth time please post a proper parse with just the spammable. You should be doing 50K by your claims of 40% more damage.

    the parse wasn't supposed to be indicative of it's absolute damage, only an example of how fast the ability could be weaved. i didn't mention my gear, race, the dummy i used, or any other relevant information about the parse, but this is like the third time you're looking at the dps and not the number of light attacks weaved in between sweeps. if we look at how fast it can be weaved and then compare it's tooltip damage to other instant cast abilities, we can get an idea of how much damage the ability actually does in comparison to those instant cast abilities when it's weaved properly. see the parse above.

    Edited by ecru on July 31, 2019 12:58AM
    Gryphon Heart
  • Muzzick
    Muzzick
    ✭✭✭✭
    ecru wrote: »
    man this is so boring

    iErNmMt.jpg

    zbfWgPR.jpg

    elEmEnTaL weApoN dOeS mOrE DaMagE tHaN PuNCtuRinG sWeEp

    i missed like two light attacks with sweep too because i haven't touched my magplar in awhile lol

    Since you like doing math let's plug some numbers here. You're doing 9914 light attack dps with elemental weapon. You're doing 7759 light attack dps with sweeps. So you weaved 78% as well as you did with elemental weapon. Which is not surprising because sweeps is indeed a clunky skill to spam. It's not 95% as well, your light attack damage would be 9418 if it was. The difference of the two skills also becomes narrowed once again when we subtract burning light from the equation. In a rotation where burning light is obtained from other means, you actually just proved sweeps and elemental weapon do basically the same damage.
    Edited by Muzzick on July 31, 2019 1:02AM
  • ecru
    ecru
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Muzzick wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    man this is so boring

    iErNmMt.jpg

    zbfWgPR.jpg

    elEmEnTaL weApoN dOeS mOrE DaMagE tHaN PuNCtuRinG sWeEp

    i missed like two light attacks with sweep too because i haven't touched my magplar in awhile lol

    Since you like doing math let's plug some numbers here. You're doing 9914 light attack dps with elemental weapon. You're doing 7759 light attack dps with sweeps. So you weaved 78% as well as you did with elemental weapon. Which is not surprising because sweeps is indeed a clunky skill to spam. It's not 95% as well, your light attack damage would be 9418. The difference of the two skills also becomes narrowed once again when we subtract burning light from the equation. In a rotation where burning light is obtained from other means, you actually just proved sweeps and elemental weapon do basically the same damage.

    i said "i missed a few light attacks" in the post you quoted. i updated the post to include a "better" one, since that was my first time using sweep in a month or two. weaving only ele weapon isn't indicative of your ratio over a long parse, the highest LA ratio you will see in a long parse will be about 0.94, which judging by the discussion we're having, is probably not something you've ever personally seen on a dummy.

    we can also subtract burning from the ele weapon parse since it'll be applied by blockade. oh no, -2k for the ele weapon parse.

    tbh i'm not really sure what point you're trying to make anymore.

    the point of the initial parse i linked which was like .88 or .89 was to indicate that it can be weaved nearly as fast as a very good dummy parse (.93-.94) with some practice. i don't main my magplar, so i don't have a lot of recent practice with the ability, which is why i'm not great at weaving sweep after not touching the ability for a month or two.

    edit: my point is that the ceiling for sweep is even higher than in my parses. an exceptional magplar main who is very familiar with the ability and has the muscle memory to weave it consistently (not me) could probably see 42k in comparison to my decent 40k if using the exact same gear.
    Edited by ecru on July 31, 2019 1:17AM
    Gryphon Heart
  • Muzzick
    Muzzick
    ✭✭✭✭
    You're asking me what my point is, so I'll remind you by quoting your first few posts in this thread.
    ecru wrote: »
    last time i checked sweep/jabs was the highest damage spammable ability in the entire game

    lol
    ecru wrote: »
    Marteene wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    last time i checked sweep/jabs was the highest damage spammable ability in the entire game

    lol

    Have you ever used elemental weapon, Molten Whip, Surprise Attack, Necro Skull, or force pulse? Lol

    yeah

    they all do less damage
    ecru wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    Marteene wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    last time i checked sweep/jabs was the highest damage spammable ability in the entire game

    lol

    Have you ever used elemental weapon, Molten Whip, Surprise Attack, Necro Skull, or force pulse? Lol

    yeah

    they all do less damage

    Not force pulse next patch.

    force pulse isn't being buffed by over 40% (which is what it would need to do more damage than sweep), so no.

    sweep only does 3% less damage than necro blastbones. it's still the highest damage spammable in the game by a substantial amount.

    oleuxwkxq57i.jpg

    You made claims in your first few posts that you have yet to prove. Waiting to see 50k on your sweeps parse still.
    Edited by Muzzick on July 31, 2019 1:27AM
  • EtTuBrutus
    EtTuBrutus
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ecru wrote: »
    Muzzick wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    man this is so boring

    iErNmMt.jpg

    zbfWgPR.jpg

    elEmEnTaL weApoN dOeS mOrE DaMagE tHaN PuNCtuRinG sWeEp

    i missed like two light attacks with sweep too because i haven't touched my magplar in awhile lol

    Since you like doing math let's plug some numbers here. You're doing 9914 light attack dps with elemental weapon. You're doing 7759 light attack dps with sweeps. So you weaved 78% as well as you did with elemental weapon. Which is not surprising because sweeps is indeed a clunky skill to spam. It's not 95% as well, your light attack damage would be 9418. The difference of the two skills also becomes narrowed once again when we subtract burning light from the equation. In a rotation where burning light is obtained from other means, you actually just proved sweeps and elemental weapon do basically the same damage.

    i said "i missed a few light attacks" in the post you quoted. i updated the post to include a "better" one, since that was my first time using sweep in a month or two. weaving only ele weapon isn't indicative of your ratio over a long parse, the highest LA ratio you will see in a long parse will be about 0.94, which judging by the discussion we're having, is probably not something you've ever personally seen on a dummy.

    we can also subtract burning from the ele weapon parse since it'll be applied by blockade. oh no, -2k for the ele weapon parse.

    tbh i'm not really sure what point you're trying to make anymore.

    the point of the initial parse i linked which was like .88 or .89 was to indicate that it can be weaved nearly as fast as a very good dummy parse (.93-.94) with some practice. i don't main my magplar, so i don't have a lot of recent practice with the ability, which is why i'm not great at weaving sweep after not touching the ability for a month or two.

    edit: my point is that the ceiling for sweep is even higher than in my parses. an exceptional magplar main who is very familiar with the ability and has the muscle memory to weave it consistently (not me) could probably see 42k in comparison to my decent 40k if using the exact same gear.

    We're trying to find this 40% extra dmg. That's what the points supposed to be. You claim it's OP and show that parse? Gtfo.

    And to my point, factors like being stunned mid channel, losing los bc the opponent can play against your hit box, and the fact that it's melee(which has a higher opportunity cost than ranged... common man stop acting like these skills operate even close to eachother in functionality) should absolutely be considered when addressing dmg. For instance, wrecking blow would need a nerf if it was instant (no counterplay)- the counterplay justifies its damage +stun.

  • ecru
    ecru
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Muzzick wrote: »
    You're asking me what my point is, so I'll remind you by quoting your first few posts in this thread.
    ecru wrote: »
    last time i checked sweep/jabs was the highest damage spammable ability in the entire game

    lol
    ecru wrote: »
    Marteene wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    last time i checked sweep/jabs was the highest damage spammable ability in the entire game

    lol

    Have you ever used elemental weapon, Molten Whip, Surprise Attack, Necro Skull, or force pulse? Lol

    yeah

    they all do less damage
    ecru wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    Marteene wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    last time i checked sweep/jabs was the highest damage spammable ability in the entire game

    lol

    Have you ever used elemental weapon, Molten Whip, Surprise Attack, Necro Skull, or force pulse? Lol

    yeah

    they all do less damage

    Not force pulse next patch.

    force pulse isn't being buffed by over 40% (which is what it would need to do more damage than sweep), so no.

    sweep only does 3% less damage than necro blastbones. it's still the highest damage spammable in the game by a substantial amount.

    oleuxwkxq57i.jpg

    You made claims in your first few posts that you have yet to prove. Waiting to see 50k on your sweeps parse still.

    in the parse i linked i'm breton, i was wearing false god, chokethorn (with a stam glyph), using the magicka recovery mundus, and i had 3 mag recovery glyphs on my jewelry. it was just gear i picked on a template to make sure i didn't starve on the dummy when testing ele weapon vs sweep. for the fourth time, the absolute damage of the parse is not relevant.
    EtTuBrutus wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    Muzzick wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    man this is so boring

    iErNmMt.jpg

    zbfWgPR.jpg

    elEmEnTaL weApoN dOeS mOrE DaMagE tHaN PuNCtuRinG sWeEp

    i missed like two light attacks with sweep too because i haven't touched my magplar in awhile lol

    Since you like doing math let's plug some numbers here. You're doing 9914 light attack dps with elemental weapon. You're doing 7759 light attack dps with sweeps. So you weaved 78% as well as you did with elemental weapon. Which is not surprising because sweeps is indeed a clunky skill to spam. It's not 95% as well, your light attack damage would be 9418. The difference of the two skills also becomes narrowed once again when we subtract burning light from the equation. In a rotation where burning light is obtained from other means, you actually just proved sweeps and elemental weapon do basically the same damage.

    i said "i missed a few light attacks" in the post you quoted. i updated the post to include a "better" one, since that was my first time using sweep in a month or two. weaving only ele weapon isn't indicative of your ratio over a long parse, the highest LA ratio you will see in a long parse will be about 0.94, which judging by the discussion we're having, is probably not something you've ever personally seen on a dummy.

    we can also subtract burning from the ele weapon parse since it'll be applied by blockade. oh no, -2k for the ele weapon parse.

    tbh i'm not really sure what point you're trying to make anymore.

    the point of the initial parse i linked which was like .88 or .89 was to indicate that it can be weaved nearly as fast as a very good dummy parse (.93-.94) with some practice. i don't main my magplar, so i don't have a lot of recent practice with the ability, which is why i'm not great at weaving sweep after not touching the ability for a month or two.

    edit: my point is that the ceiling for sweep is even higher than in my parses. an exceptional magplar main who is very familiar with the ability and has the muscle memory to weave it consistently (not me) could probably see 42k in comparison to my decent 40k if using the exact same gear.

    We're trying to find this 40% extra dmg. That's what the points supposed to be. You claim it's OP and show that parse? Gtfo.

    And to my point, factors like being stunned mid channel, losing los bc the opponent can play against your hit box, and the fact that it's melee(which has a higher opportunity cost than ranged... common man stop acting like these skills operate even close to eachother in functionality) should absolutely be considered when addressing dmg. For instance, wrecking blow would need a nerf if it was instant (no counterplay)- the counterplay justifies its damage +stun.

    there is roughly a 35-45% difference between ele weapon and sweep in those parses, depending on whether you want to consider that there will be a separate source of status effects like burning during a typical parse or not. if you can't see it, i can't help you.
    Edited by ecru on July 31, 2019 1:47AM
    Gryphon Heart
  • EtTuBrutus
    EtTuBrutus
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ecru wrote: »
    Muzzick wrote: »
    You're asking me what my point is, so I'll remind you by quoting your first few posts in this thread.
    ecru wrote: »
    last time i checked sweep/jabs was the highest damage spammable ability in the entire game

    lol
    ecru wrote: »
    Marteene wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    last time i checked sweep/jabs was the highest damage spammable ability in the entire game

    lol

    Have you ever used elemental weapon, Molten Whip, Surprise Attack, Necro Skull, or force pulse? Lol

    yeah

    they all do less damage
    ecru wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    Marteene wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    last time i checked sweep/jabs was the highest damage spammable ability in the entire game

    lol

    Have you ever used elemental weapon, Molten Whip, Surprise Attack, Necro Skull, or force pulse? Lol

    yeah

    they all do less damage

    Not force pulse next patch.

    force pulse isn't being buffed by over 40% (which is what it would need to do more damage than sweep), so no.

    sweep only does 3% less damage than necro blastbones. it's still the highest damage spammable in the game by a substantial amount.

    oleuxwkxq57i.jpg

    You made claims in your first few posts that you have yet to prove. Waiting to see 50k on your sweeps parse still.

    in the parse i linked i'm breton, i was wearing false god, chokethorn (with a stam glyph), using the magicka recovery mundus, and i had 3 mag recovery glyphs on my jewelry. it was just gear i picked on a template to make sure i didn't starve on the dummy when testing ele weapon vs sweep. for the fourth time, the absolute damage of the parse is not relevant.
    EtTuBrutus wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    Muzzick wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    man this is so boring

    iErNmMt.jpg

    zbfWgPR.jpg

    elEmEnTaL weApoN dOeS mOrE DaMagE tHaN PuNCtuRinG sWeEp

    i missed like two light attacks with sweep too because i haven't touched my magplar in awhile lol

    Since you like doing math let's plug some numbers here. You're doing 9914 light attack dps with elemental weapon. You're doing 7759 light attack dps with sweeps. So you weaved 78% as well as you did with elemental weapon. Which is not surprising because sweeps is indeed a clunky skill to spam. It's not 95% as well, your light attack damage would be 9418. The difference of the two skills also becomes narrowed once again when we subtract burning light from the equation. In a rotation where burning light is obtained from other means, you actually just proved sweeps and elemental weapon do basically the same damage.

    i said "i missed a few light attacks" in the post you quoted. i updated the post to include a "better" one, since that was my first time using sweep in a month or two. weaving only ele weapon isn't indicative of your ratio over a long parse, the highest LA ratio you will see in a long parse will be about 0.94, which judging by the discussion we're having, is probably not something you've ever personally seen on a dummy.

    we can also subtract burning from the ele weapon parse since it'll be applied by blockade. oh no, -2k for the ele weapon parse.

    tbh i'm not really sure what point you're trying to make anymore.

    the point of the initial parse i linked which was like .88 or .89 was to indicate that it can be weaved nearly as fast as a very good dummy parse (.93-.94) with some practice. i don't main my magplar, so i don't have a lot of recent practice with the ability, which is why i'm not great at weaving sweep after not touching the ability for a month or two.

    edit: my point is that the ceiling for sweep is even higher than in my parses. an exceptional magplar main who is very familiar with the ability and has the muscle memory to weave it consistently (not me) could probably see 42k in comparison to my decent 40k if using the exact same gear.

    We're trying to find this 40% extra dmg. That's what the points supposed to be. You claim it's OP and show that parse? Gtfo.

    And to my point, factors like being stunned mid channel, losing los bc the opponent can play against your hit box, and the fact that it's melee(which has a higher opportunity cost than ranged... common man stop acting like these skills operate even close to eachother in functionality) should absolutely be considered when addressing dmg. For instance, wrecking blow would need a nerf if it was instant (no counterplay)- the counterplay justifies its damage +stun.

    there is roughly a 35-45% difference between ele weapon and sweep in those parses, depending on whether you want to consider that there will be a separate source of status effects like burning during a typical parse or not. if you can't see it, i can't help you.

    Youre right, definately read that incorrectly.
    Edited by EtTuBrutus on July 31, 2019 2:42AM
  • Muzzick
    Muzzick
    ✭✭✭✭
    ecru wrote: »
    Muzzick wrote: »
    You're asking me what my point is, so I'll remind you by quoting your first few posts in this thread.
    ecru wrote: »
    last time i checked sweep/jabs was the highest damage spammable ability in the entire game

    lol
    ecru wrote: »
    Marteene wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    last time i checked sweep/jabs was the highest damage spammable ability in the entire game

    lol

    Have you ever used elemental weapon, Molten Whip, Surprise Attack, Necro Skull, or force pulse? Lol

    yeah

    they all do less damage
    ecru wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    Marteene wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    last time i checked sweep/jabs was the highest damage spammable ability in the entire game

    lol

    Have you ever used elemental weapon, Molten Whip, Surprise Attack, Necro Skull, or force pulse? Lol

    yeah

    they all do less damage

    Not force pulse next patch.

    force pulse isn't being buffed by over 40% (which is what it would need to do more damage than sweep), so no.

    sweep only does 3% less damage than necro blastbones. it's still the highest damage spammable in the game by a substantial amount.

    oleuxwkxq57i.jpg

    You made claims in your first few posts that you have yet to prove. Waiting to see 50k on your sweeps parse still.

    in the parse i linked i'm breton, i was wearing false god, chokethorn (with a stam glyph), using the magicka recovery mundus, and i had 3 mag recovery glyphs on my jewelry. it was just gear i picked on a template to make sure i didn't starve on the dummy when testing ele weapon vs sweep. for the fourth time, the absolute damage of the parse is not relevant.
    EtTuBrutus wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    Muzzick wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    man this is so boring

    iErNmMt.jpg

    zbfWgPR.jpg

    elEmEnTaL weApoN dOeS mOrE DaMagE tHaN PuNCtuRinG sWeEp

    i missed like two light attacks with sweep too because i haven't touched my magplar in awhile lol

    Since you like doing math let's plug some numbers here. You're doing 9914 light attack dps with elemental weapon. You're doing 7759 light attack dps with sweeps. So you weaved 78% as well as you did with elemental weapon. Which is not surprising because sweeps is indeed a clunky skill to spam. It's not 95% as well, your light attack damage would be 9418. The difference of the two skills also becomes narrowed once again when we subtract burning light from the equation. In a rotation where burning light is obtained from other means, you actually just proved sweeps and elemental weapon do basically the same damage.

    i said "i missed a few light attacks" in the post you quoted. i updated the post to include a "better" one, since that was my first time using sweep in a month or two. weaving only ele weapon isn't indicative of your ratio over a long parse, the highest LA ratio you will see in a long parse will be about 0.94, which judging by the discussion we're having, is probably not something you've ever personally seen on a dummy.

    we can also subtract burning from the ele weapon parse since it'll be applied by blockade. oh no, -2k for the ele weapon parse.

    tbh i'm not really sure what point you're trying to make anymore.

    the point of the initial parse i linked which was like .88 or .89 was to indicate that it can be weaved nearly as fast as a very good dummy parse (.93-.94) with some practice. i don't main my magplar, so i don't have a lot of recent practice with the ability, which is why i'm not great at weaving sweep after not touching the ability for a month or two.

    edit: my point is that the ceiling for sweep is even higher than in my parses. an exceptional magplar main who is very familiar with the ability and has the muscle memory to weave it consistently (not me) could probably see 42k in comparison to my decent 40k if using the exact same gear.

    We're trying to find this 40% extra dmg. That's what the points supposed to be. You claim it's OP and show that parse? Gtfo.

    And to my point, factors like being stunned mid channel, losing los bc the opponent can play against your hit box, and the fact that it's melee(which has a higher opportunity cost than ranged... common man stop acting like these skills operate even close to eachother in functionality) should absolutely be considered when addressing dmg. For instance, wrecking blow would need a nerf if it was instant (no counterplay)- the counterplay justifies its damage +stun.

    there is roughly a 35-45% difference between ele weapon and sweep in those parses, depending on whether you want to consider that there will be a separate source of status effects like burning during a typical parse or not. if you can't see it, i can't help you.

    It's not possible to starve when dealing only a million damage, especially on a Breton wearing false god. Also the Regen on your combat metrics report is not reflective of 3 mag recovery glyphs and chokethorne.
  • No_Division
    No_Division
    ✭✭✭
    I'm still waiting to see a raid parse in actual combat where your target isn't staying still lol.
  • ecru
    ecru
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Muzzick wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    Muzzick wrote: »
    You're asking me what my point is, so I'll remind you by quoting your first few posts in this thread.
    ecru wrote: »
    last time i checked sweep/jabs was the highest damage spammable ability in the entire game

    lol
    ecru wrote: »
    Marteene wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    last time i checked sweep/jabs was the highest damage spammable ability in the entire game

    lol

    Have you ever used elemental weapon, Molten Whip, Surprise Attack, Necro Skull, or force pulse? Lol

    yeah

    they all do less damage
    ecru wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    Marteene wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    last time i checked sweep/jabs was the highest damage spammable ability in the entire game

    lol

    Have you ever used elemental weapon, Molten Whip, Surprise Attack, Necro Skull, or force pulse? Lol

    yeah

    they all do less damage

    Not force pulse next patch.

    force pulse isn't being buffed by over 40% (which is what it would need to do more damage than sweep), so no.

    sweep only does 3% less damage than necro blastbones. it's still the highest damage spammable in the game by a substantial amount.

    oleuxwkxq57i.jpg

    You made claims in your first few posts that you have yet to prove. Waiting to see 50k on your sweeps parse still.

    in the parse i linked i'm breton, i was wearing false god, chokethorn (with a stam glyph), using the magicka recovery mundus, and i had 3 mag recovery glyphs on my jewelry. it was just gear i picked on a template to make sure i didn't starve on the dummy when testing ele weapon vs sweep. for the fourth time, the absolute damage of the parse is not relevant.
    EtTuBrutus wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    Muzzick wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    man this is so boring

    iErNmMt.jpg

    zbfWgPR.jpg

    elEmEnTaL weApoN dOeS mOrE DaMagE tHaN PuNCtuRinG sWeEp

    i missed like two light attacks with sweep too because i haven't touched my magplar in awhile lol

    Since you like doing math let's plug some numbers here. You're doing 9914 light attack dps with elemental weapon. You're doing 7759 light attack dps with sweeps. So you weaved 78% as well as you did with elemental weapon. Which is not surprising because sweeps is indeed a clunky skill to spam. It's not 95% as well, your light attack damage would be 9418. The difference of the two skills also becomes narrowed once again when we subtract burning light from the equation. In a rotation where burning light is obtained from other means, you actually just proved sweeps and elemental weapon do basically the same damage.

    i said "i missed a few light attacks" in the post you quoted. i updated the post to include a "better" one, since that was my first time using sweep in a month or two. weaving only ele weapon isn't indicative of your ratio over a long parse, the highest LA ratio you will see in a long parse will be about 0.94, which judging by the discussion we're having, is probably not something you've ever personally seen on a dummy.

    we can also subtract burning from the ele weapon parse since it'll be applied by blockade. oh no, -2k for the ele weapon parse.

    tbh i'm not really sure what point you're trying to make anymore.

    the point of the initial parse i linked which was like .88 or .89 was to indicate that it can be weaved nearly as fast as a very good dummy parse (.93-.94) with some practice. i don't main my magplar, so i don't have a lot of recent practice with the ability, which is why i'm not great at weaving sweep after not touching the ability for a month or two.

    edit: my point is that the ceiling for sweep is even higher than in my parses. an exceptional magplar main who is very familiar with the ability and has the muscle memory to weave it consistently (not me) could probably see 42k in comparison to my decent 40k if using the exact same gear.

    We're trying to find this 40% extra dmg. That's what the points supposed to be. You claim it's OP and show that parse? Gtfo.

    And to my point, factors like being stunned mid channel, losing los bc the opponent can play against your hit box, and the fact that it's melee(which has a higher opportunity cost than ranged... common man stop acting like these skills operate even close to eachother in functionality) should absolutely be considered when addressing dmg. For instance, wrecking blow would need a nerf if it was instant (no counterplay)- the counterplay justifies its damage +stun.

    there is roughly a 35-45% difference between ele weapon and sweep in those parses, depending on whether you want to consider that there will be a separate source of status effects like burning during a typical parse or not. if you can't see it, i can't help you.

    It's not possible to starve when dealing only a million damage, especially on a Breton wearing false god. Also the Regen on your combat metrics report is not reflective of 3 mag recovery glyphs and chokethorne.

    i don't think you have any idea how combat metrics tracks magicka drain and regen.
    I'm still waiting to see a raid parse in actual combat where your target isn't staying still lol.

    i think the suggestion here is that you have a lot of trouble staying with a target. i'm sorry that you're having that issue, and i'd suggest you practice more to get better at moving your character in game while using your abilities. perhaps you're doing something really dumb like still weapon swapping with ~ or using the numbers above WASD for abilities while trying to move? maybe using different keys would help so that you don't have to move your fingers from WASD while playing the game. hope that helps!
    Gryphon Heart
  • Muzzick
    Muzzick
    ✭✭✭✭
    ecru wrote: »
    Muzzick wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    Muzzick wrote: »
    You're asking me what my point is, so I'll remind you by quoting your first few posts in this thread.
    ecru wrote: »
    last time i checked sweep/jabs was the highest damage spammable ability in the entire game

    lol
    ecru wrote: »
    Marteene wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    last time i checked sweep/jabs was the highest damage spammable ability in the entire game

    lol

    Have you ever used elemental weapon, Molten Whip, Surprise Attack, Necro Skull, or force pulse? Lol

    yeah

    they all do less damage
    ecru wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    Marteene wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    last time i checked sweep/jabs was the highest damage spammable ability in the entire game

    lol

    Have you ever used elemental weapon, Molten Whip, Surprise Attack, Necro Skull, or force pulse? Lol

    yeah

    they all do less damage

    Not force pulse next patch.

    force pulse isn't being buffed by over 40% (which is what it would need to do more damage than sweep), so no.

    sweep only does 3% less damage than necro blastbones. it's still the highest damage spammable in the game by a substantial amount.

    oleuxwkxq57i.jpg

    You made claims in your first few posts that you have yet to prove. Waiting to see 50k on your sweeps parse still.

    in the parse i linked i'm breton, i was wearing false god, chokethorn (with a stam glyph), using the magicka recovery mundus, and i had 3 mag recovery glyphs on my jewelry. it was just gear i picked on a template to make sure i didn't starve on the dummy when testing ele weapon vs sweep. for the fourth time, the absolute damage of the parse is not relevant.
    EtTuBrutus wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    Muzzick wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    man this is so boring

    iErNmMt.jpg

    zbfWgPR.jpg

    elEmEnTaL weApoN dOeS mOrE DaMagE tHaN PuNCtuRinG sWeEp

    i missed like two light attacks with sweep too because i haven't touched my magplar in awhile lol

    Since you like doing math let's plug some numbers here. You're doing 9914 light attack dps with elemental weapon. You're doing 7759 light attack dps with sweeps. So you weaved 78% as well as you did with elemental weapon. Which is not surprising because sweeps is indeed a clunky skill to spam. It's not 95% as well, your light attack damage would be 9418. The difference of the two skills also becomes narrowed once again when we subtract burning light from the equation. In a rotation where burning light is obtained from other means, you actually just proved sweeps and elemental weapon do basically the same damage.

    i said "i missed a few light attacks" in the post you quoted. i updated the post to include a "better" one, since that was my first time using sweep in a month or two. weaving only ele weapon isn't indicative of your ratio over a long parse, the highest LA ratio you will see in a long parse will be about 0.94, which judging by the discussion we're having, is probably not something you've ever personally seen on a dummy.

    we can also subtract burning from the ele weapon parse since it'll be applied by blockade. oh no, -2k for the ele weapon parse.

    tbh i'm not really sure what point you're trying to make anymore.

    the point of the initial parse i linked which was like .88 or .89 was to indicate that it can be weaved nearly as fast as a very good dummy parse (.93-.94) with some practice. i don't main my magplar, so i don't have a lot of recent practice with the ability, which is why i'm not great at weaving sweep after not touching the ability for a month or two.

    edit: my point is that the ceiling for sweep is even higher than in my parses. an exceptional magplar main who is very familiar with the ability and has the muscle memory to weave it consistently (not me) could probably see 42k in comparison to my decent 40k if using the exact same gear.

    We're trying to find this 40% extra dmg. That's what the points supposed to be. You claim it's OP and show that parse? Gtfo.

    And to my point, factors like being stunned mid channel, losing los bc the opponent can play against your hit box, and the fact that it's melee(which has a higher opportunity cost than ranged... common man stop acting like these skills operate even close to eachother in functionality) should absolutely be considered when addressing dmg. For instance, wrecking blow would need a nerf if it was instant (no counterplay)- the counterplay justifies its damage +stun.

    there is roughly a 35-45% difference between ele weapon and sweep in those parses, depending on whether you want to consider that there will be a separate source of status effects like burning during a typical parse or not. if you can't see it, i can't help you.

    It's not possible to starve when dealing only a million damage, especially on a Breton wearing false god. Also the Regen on your combat metrics report is not reflective of 3 mag recovery glyphs and chokethorne.

    i don't think you have any idea how combat metrics tracks magicka drain and regen.
    I'm still waiting to see a raid parse in actual combat where your target isn't staying still lol.

    i think the suggestion here is that you have a lot of trouble staying with a target. i'm sorry that you're having that issue, and i'd suggest you practice more to get better at moving your character in game while using your abilities. perhaps you're doing something really dumb like still weapon swapping with ~ or using the numbers above WASD for abilities while trying to move? maybe using different keys would help so that you don't have to move your fingers from WASD while playing the game. hope that helps!

    Your parse did not prove what you said about "highest damage spammable in the game by a substantial amount".
  • maxjapank
    maxjapank
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm still waiting to see a raid parse in actual combat where your target isn't staying still lol.

    The deflection and pivoting from providing actual combat anything is lolable.
  • jypcy
    jypcy
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Please excuse the shamefully low numbers, I never bother to practice parsing and was too lazy to dig out actual parse gear.

    Full ele weapon parse with direct damage cp and inferno frontbar:

    j6n16mas7oqz.png

    88 uses of the skill totaled 2.02m damage and 6.9k dps


    Full sweeps parse with dot cp and lightning frontbar:

    lng1m0ctch2o.png

    ~63 uses of the skill totaled 2.57m damage and 8.8 dps


    Even with the slightly higher crit ratio on sweeps, I think we can agree that the damage per cast considerably exceeds that of ele weapon.

    Also note that the burning light procs on the sweeps parse were nearly double that of the ele weapon parse, which I don't think we can attribute entirely to the random proc chance. *Edit: in fairness, I forgot about spell orb procs which would counterbalance the extra burning light procs somewhat. However, looks like they contributed less than 900 dps and thus don’t make up for either the extra burning light procs or the extra damage from sweeps itself.

    I did miss a fair amount of light attacks on the sweeps parse, but CMX indicated that most of those missed were on my backbar and thus not a factor of sweeps weaving. I had four fewer fb light attacks on the sweeps parse compared to the ele weapon parse.

    Usability against moving targets? Viability in a full build? Still fair questions imo, and more so where consideration of "actual combat anything" comes into play. But if we're talking pure damage of spammables, yes, sweeps is higher (I believe highest, but I'm not dedicated/invested enough to bother replicating builds and testing across characters to try to prove this).
    Edited by jypcy on July 31, 2019 3:06PM
  • teladoy
    teladoy
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ccfeeling wrote: »
    PTS Patch Notes v5.1.0

    Many Damage over Time abilities, both single target and Area of Effect, have been re-standardized to follow similar behaviors to other ability types. Area of Effect DoTs will now be 33% weaker than a single target DoT counter-part and cost 30% more, just like direct damage AoEs vs single target ones.

    Fiery Breath:
    Increased the cost of this ability and its morphs to 2808 from 2700.
    Decreased the DoT damage per tick by approximately 15%.

    Twisting Path (morph): Decreased the damage per tick of this ability by approximately 14%.

    Lightning Splash: Decreased the cost of this ability and its morphs to 3024 from 3510, and decreased the damage per tick by approximately 37%.

    Winter’s Revenge (morph): Decreased the damage per tick by approximately 29%.

    Aedric Spear
    Puncturing Strikes: Reduced the base cost of this ability and its morphs to 2700 from 2952. Biting Jabs retains the 15% cost reduction.


    Why Templar has no changed ?

    Because Aedric Spear is a channeled ability and the others damage over time!
  • technohic
    technohic
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    Is elemental weapon really the comparison? Its potentially a ranged attack. I'm not sure what PVEers prefer to use but should be a melee comparison. thinking we possibly need a different class but then we are looking at a small piece of a bigger picture when considering self buffs available and passives.

    And are we using lightning staff for 1, fire for the other, or a melee weapon?

    Everyone wants to math it out as an argument with tooltip warriors but the issue is practicality. in PvP I use sweeps/jabs because I obviously think its decent. But you run into anyone with some speed and fighting you going back and forth, you lose hits. And if they are running away, you wont land them hardly at all.
    Technohic - DC Templar
    Technohicz - DC Nightblade
    Technohix - DC Sorc
    TechDKnohic - DC DK
    Tech No Hic - DC Warden
    Necrohic - DC Necromancer
  • Destruent
    Destruent
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    ecru wrote: »

    it's really convenient to respond to the first part and not the second. there is a reason ranged magicka dd's don't use sweep, but it isn't because it does less damage than ele weapon, it's because it's melee and has a very high cost.

    Confirmed, you haven't looked at vSS at all. on All fights you can go meelee-DPS 24/7 and when using sweeps sustain is even better than it is with ele-weapon. so people don't use sweeps bc doesn't provide any dps increase over a ranged-spammable...
    jypcy wrote: »
    Please excuse the shamefully low numbers, I never bother to practice parsing and was too lazy to dig out actual parse gear.

    Full ele weapon parse with direct damage cp and inferno frontbar:

    j6n16mas7oqz.png

    88 uses of the skill totaled 2.02m damage and 6.9k dps


    Full sweeps parse with dot cp and lightning frontbar:

    lng1m0ctch2o.png

    ~63 uses of the skill totaled 2.57m damage and 8.8 dps


    Even with the slightly higher crit ratio on sweeps, I think we can agree that the damage per cast considerably exceeds that of ele weapon.

    Also note that the burning light procs on the sweeps parse were nearly double that of the ele weapon parse, which I don't think we can attribute entirely to the random proc chance.

    I did miss a fair amount of light attacks on the sweeps parse, but CMX indicated that most of those missed were on my backbar and thus not a factor of sweeps weaving. I had four fewer fb light attacks on the sweeps parse compared to the ele weapon parse.

    Usability against moving targets? Viability in a full build? Still fair questions imo, and more so where consideration of "actual combat anything" comes into play. But if we're talking pure damage of spammables, yes, sweeps is higher (I believe highest, but I'm not dedicated/invested enough to bother replicating builds and testing across characters to try to prove this).

    This post shows the problem perfectly...even though sweeps does a more DPS itself, it doesn't increase your overall dps (even on a stationary dummy)...
    Edited by Destruent on July 31, 2019 11:35AM
    Noobplar
  • jypcy
    jypcy
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Destruent wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »

    it's really convenient to respond to the first part and not the second. there is a reason ranged magicka dd's don't use sweep, but it isn't because it does less damage than ele weapon, it's because it's melee and has a very high cost.

    Confirmed, you haven't looked at vSS at all. on All fights you can go meelee-DPS 24/7 and when using sweeps sustain is even better than it is with ele-weapon. so people don't use sweeps bc doesn't provide any dps increase over a ranged-spammable...
    jypcy wrote: »
    Please excuse the shamefully low numbers, I never bother to practice parsing and was too lazy to dig out actual parse gear.

    Full ele weapon parse with direct damage cp and inferno frontbar:

    j6n16mas7oqz.png

    88 uses of the skill totaled 2.02m damage and 6.9k dps


    Full sweeps parse with dot cp and lightning frontbar:

    lng1m0ctch2o.png

    ~63 uses of the skill totaled 2.57m damage and 8.8 dps.


    Even with the slightly higher crit ratio on sweeps, I think we can agree that the damage per cast considerably exceeds that of ele weapon.

    Also note that the burning light procs on the sweeps parse were nearly double that of the ele weapon parse, which I don't think we can attribute entirely to the random proc chance.

    I did miss a fair amount of light attacks on the sweeps parse, but CMX indicated that most of those missed were on my backbar and thus not a factor of sweeps weaving. I had four fewer fb light attacks on the sweeps parse compared to the ele weapon parse.

    Usability against moving targets? Viability in a full build? Still fair questions imo, and more so where consideration of "actual combat anything" comes into play. But if we're talking pure damage of spammables, yes, sweeps is higher (I believe highest, but I'm not dedicated/invested enough to bother replicating builds and testing across characters to try to prove this).

    This post shows the problem perfectly...even though sweeps does a more DPS itself, it doesn't increase your overall dps (even on a stationary dummy)...

    Agreed on the second part, which I think is due in large part to it benefitting from aoe and dot damage modifiers which is weird for your spammable to do and also cuts away from other very important sources of magplar dps (namely light attacks and jbeam). Though take the overall numbers with a grain of salt. As noted, I’m not practiced in this sort of thing and a better optimized sweeps build might result in marginally higher damage.
    OnThaLoose wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    last time i checked sweep/jabs was the highest damage spammable ability in the entire game

    lol

    Have you used surprise attack?!? Surprise attack does DIRECT damage, all of it, up front- instantly. Oh and it actually does MORE damage than jabs. And if you flank, it reduces their armor by 5% increasing its damage further.

    As far as "last time you checked" - you may want to check again, pal.

    More forum logic. You people make my head hurt.

    Ok, let’s look at surprise attack.

    Optimized parse from Liko for the live patch using SA:

    trx5se9u8yaz.jpeg

    47 uses of the skill totaled 1.68m damage and 7.5k dps.

    Vs my trash setup+parse from the live patch using sweeps, where ~63 uses of the skill totaled 2.57m damage and 8.8 dps.

    The comparison here isn’t as clear because I used more sweeps than he used SAs, so let’s look at actual damage per cast:

    SA: average 35.8k damage per cast
    Sweeps: average 10.3k damage * 4 per cast (41.2k)

    Adjusting for the ~11% higher crit ratio I scored for sweeps would make it around 39k damage per cast. Or even just discount a full 11% of the damage per cast of my sweeps and it averages ~37k per cast, still higher than SA on a highly optimized build used by a parse wizard.

    Again, I’m not saying that sweeps doesn’t have drawbacks in its usability or viability. But I still tend to agree with @ecru that its raw damage potential is higher than most other options if not all of them.
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