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What Everyone Should Read...The Results of 3-Hour Long PTS PvE Raid: Healer Role At Risk?

  • Jodynn
    Jodynn
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    Three major points that ZOS needs to understand
    • This will diminish the role of healer and erode away what little standings they actually have in game other than raid context
    • Healing is super boring on PTS
    • Standardization can be a good thing, but if something has a "sacrifice" ( weapon/class/race/etc ) there needs to be a reward for it
    Edited by Jodynn on July 27, 2019 6:01PM
    Jodynn PC NA
    PvE and PvP MagDK
    The lack of communication from ZOS to player speaks volumes.
  • BringerOfOmens
    BringerOfOmens
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    We are all assuming right now ZOS does not intend to all but render the healer class obsolete but maybe it is.
  • Rustyfish101
    Rustyfish101
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    Say it louder for the people in the back!

    In all seriousness, this further showcases the concerns I have had since the first patch notes. Healing is boring, weak, and unnecessary. Why have the role in the first place if these changes go live? My first reaction to the video (thank you so very much Nefas by the way for putting this together, I wish I could've joined but I had other arrangements last night) was disgust, I'm disgusted that these changes are being seriously proposed with no better alternatives for us.
    - "Just slot RoP" a DPS can do that, and be better at it too.
    - "Just use Ritual" what about non-templars?

    Something that was clearly overlooked is that we have nothing to do now. Put down all our HoTs and we have nothing to do so we resort to Combat Prayer spam which isn't enough healing for those hard hitting mechanics in the video. Not to mention you're actually increasing the amount of overhealing as a result because healers are now bored.

    We have nothing to do and we feel useless, and that isn't fun!
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  • Gilvoth
    Gilvoth
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    Thank you for your work and study.
    as others said "a great break down of the changes.

    but things allways slightly different on "Live", lets wait for it to launch on live before actual proof of the new changes.
    in both pvp and pve.
  • BennyButton
    BennyButton
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    Good write up! I agree 100% with @code65536.
  • Wuuffyy
    Wuuffyy
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    Gets rekt by stam. Reduces values to 1 hps. Still gets outdeeps'd and loses. Nerf yourself and l2p. <3
    Edited by Wuuffyy on July 27, 2019 11:14PM
    Wuuffyy,
    ESO player since 2014
    -PM for questions
  • AcadianPaladin
    AcadianPaladin
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    My main is a magplar healer and we are quite concerned about the PTS patch notes. I agree with the poster above in trying not to overreact until it goes live but that doesn't stop me from preparing contingencies.

    My healer's 'niche' when grouped is as a 'pug healer'. That means she slots a bit more damage (since pugs can be low there) and she does not slot Combat Prayer (pugs are too low on dps and positional discipline to justify it). Each of her 10 active skills must really earn a slot. At this point, both Mutagen and Healing Springs justify slots. Based on the proposed changes to those two skills, they would no longer justify those slots. Casting a HoT 4 times and limiting to only one Springs to cover a small herd of running cats (pug)? Unsatisfactory. That means there would be no reason to carry a resto staff. So, if things go live as they are on PTS, our tentative plan is drop the resto staff for a second lightning staff, throw in the towel and become a solo dps.
    Edited by AcadianPaladin on July 27, 2019 11:47PM
    PC NA(no Steam), PvE, mostly solo
  • Bherdani
    Bherdani
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    New group comp will be 1-3 tanks, 7-10 DPS, and a Bard ffs
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  • Jaimeh
    Jaimeh
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    Bherdani wrote: »
    New group comp will be 1-3 tanks, 7-10 DPS, and a Bard ffs

    Trial stam healing 2019 :smiley:
  • Disturbed125
    Disturbed125
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    As others have pointed out the big issue here is not that raid groups will adapt as some people continue to push. We have always adapted to every crazy patch and always will until we decide not to raid anymore.

    The issue here is that standardizing healing using what seems to be a data only or as code put it a "spreadsheet" approach is detrimental to healing in general. Healing on the PTS is much less effective, which further erodes the necessity of running full healers in a trial situation. Why bring two full healers which have to sacrifice damage in order to use a resto staff when you can bring one or two extra dds to throw RoP/Vigor and achieve the same effect? There's not a set healers run that require the person to actually be a healer, a "buff *****" DD could run pretty much anything they currently run. individual damage might suffer a little bit running more survivability skills, but group dps would increase on the order of 100k or so just by dumping healers. It is what has happened in 4 man content and its pushing its way into 12 man content with balance changes like these.

    The devs need to remember that balancing is two parts, data and "feel". If something doesn't feel good to play, people wont play it. If something doesn't feel necessary, people wont do it. You can have your spreadsheet numbers perfected to the last decimal but if what you're balancing feels wrong, then its still wrong.
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  • ccfeeling
    ccfeeling
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    Finally someone posted the thing im seeking for since pts week 1

    Thanks.
  • goldenarcher1
    goldenarcher1
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    Bherdani wrote: »
    New group comp will be 1-3 tanks, 7-10 DPS, and a Bard ffs


    New Bard class incoming.

    Skill: Minor Soothing.

    *Sing Red Diamond repeatedly to your enemies reducing their damage done by 15%.


  • bol
    bol
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    It is quite simple to save the healer role. Just add a third stat to the game called Healing Power (or something like that) and have all healing spells/skills scale of that and not of spell/weapon damage.
    Of course would need to revise some sets, add some more glyphs, etc... but then you would have a choice to either spec for damage or healing.
    As it is right now the more damage you have, the more healing you have, which is especially broken in PvP and goes against the policy where you should either spec for survivability or damage, but not get one for free with the other.
  • magicsprout
    magicsprout
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    great idea like they changed spc and olo to courage buff incorporate the blessed cp with the healing % increases to another named buff . stops power creep making it a choice to run either full power heals or a dps heal hybid
  • code65536
    code65536
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    The devs need to remember that balancing is two parts, data and "feel". If something doesn't feel good to play, people wont play it. If something doesn't feel necessary, people wont do it. You can have your spreadsheet numbers perfected to the last decimal but if what you're balancing feels wrong, then its still wrong.

    Perfectly said. QFT.


    bol wrote: »
    It is quite simple to save the healer role. Just add a third stat to the game called Healing Power (or something like that) and have all healing spells/skills scale of that and not of spell/weapon damage.
    Of course would need to revise some sets, add some more glyphs, etc... but then you would have a choice to either spec for damage or healing.
    As it is right now the more damage you have, the more healing you have, which is especially broken in PvP and goes against the policy where you should either spec for survivability or damage, but not get one for free with the other.

    No.

    The game needs to cater to a wide variety of playstyles. This thread is about group PvE content, where there is that classic MMO trinity of tank, healer, and damage dealer, and where each role needs to feel unique and useful.

    But this is also a TES game, and solo play is important. Whether we're talking about vMA or running around in Cyrodiil, self-heals are important for that sort of playstyle. While Update 23 did unnecessarily buff a few forms of self-healing, self-healing is not the problem, and should not be adjusted.

    Endgame PvE has traditionally encouraged support roles by amped-up levels of damage that are impractical for non-supports to deal with. vHoF HM execute, for example, has sustained incoming damage to the tune of about 10K/s on each player. The final two damage ticks from Focus Fire on Yolnahkriin HM, which happen at the pace of once per second, are in the ballpark of 12K and 15K, and surviving that final 15K tick requires enough heals hitting 5 players within that 1-second window between the ticks to heal them up from the previous 12K damage tick. To challenge tanks, bosses have attacks whose base damage values are 100K, 150K, or more. This is a level of damage that you don't encounter anywhere else in the game.

    This sort of amped-up damage required dedicated healers running abilities that, from a "power budget" standpoint, were admittedly overpowered. Eliminating the power of the healers' toolkit means these heal checks in endgame PvE are no longer passable, and it means a greater reliance on healing from non-healers, eroding the the lines that define the roles.

    ZOS has two courses of action here:
    1. Rethink the logic of "power budget" balancing and restore the power to the healers' toolkit. For example, the restoration staff is single-purpose weapon. Using it means a significant sacrifice in build choice. And it's the most important part of a part of the healers' identity. It should never have been subject to the same "power budget" as other healing skills. Of course, in places like Cyrodiil where you don't have amped-up damage like you do in trials, this may be problematic. But that's why all the various adjustments in Battle Spirit exists. Why not add a modifier for healing done to others to get the desired results.
    2. Rebalance PvE content so that content is clearable with the gutted healing toolkit. But if damage levels are reduced to the point where a healer with healing power not much greater than that of a DD can heal through it, then why not just have a DD heal through it?

    The very notion of "power budget" and "standardization" that is being applied here is flawed because it attempts a 1-size-fits-all solution to fundamentally different types of gameplay. Nerfing self-healing to make players require a healer is detrimental to solo and PvP gameplay. But nerfing the power of group healing is detrimental to the distinction and identity of roles in endgame group PvE. Gameplay design requires more nuance and careful consideration than just shuffling numbers around in a spreadsheet.
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  • zvavi
    zvavi
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    Guys what are you talking about, this is the time to have a necro buff monk... I mean healer, necro stamina healer.
    Edit: hircines and scavaging
    Edited by zvavi on July 28, 2019 1:00PM
  • Hotdog_23
    Hotdog_23
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    I agree restoration staff heals should be stronger and considered " rule breaker" because it requires a specific weapon unlike all other heals in the game. Sure some heals are available in other weapon lines but those weapons are primarily for damage.

    Would increasing resto heals by 25% make a different in these hard runs? Give resto skills higher heals then the current standards set forth. I know in PVP areas this would not work so just change the formula for battle spirit. I see a lot of suggestion for applying things in battle spirit but it never seems to happen for apparently a reason. Just make the extra healing given (25%) a passive giving automatically and disable that passive in PVP areas so you don't have to change the Battle spirit formula.

    Personally I don't really have a problem/issue with the way healing is moving. I think that with increased healing it helps the causal and new player. One Tank and 3 dps have been a thing for a long time in dungeons. Even 4 dps has been also. The sky is not falling for healing except in new harder content ZOS has created with the current changes.

    Again I want to state as I have said before vigor should be moved to the fighters guild skill line.
  • RebornV3x
    RebornV3x
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    saw most of the video ZOS needs to rethink these upcoming changes.
    Xbox One - NA GT: RebornV3x
    I also play on PC from time to time but I just wanna be left alone on there so sorry.
  • BroddFletcher
    BroddFletcher
    Soul Shriven
    I think these changes will be felt most strongly in random dungeons. Not an area of concern I know for high end, end content players, but for a healer going into even normal dungeons, trying to support the tank while the low DPS DDs run around like the headless chicken, being unable to put out multiple orbs or HS will make it significantly more difficult to keep them up and clear.

    And while it's possible to argue they should all "git gude", the fact is that random dungeons ARE "end game content" for a very large group of people.
  • Demra
    Demra
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    Well considering that there is an overflow of DDs in the game to the point you have to queue for an hour i guess overall the changes are not too bad. If majority will see improvement in the queue time and so on, its worth the sacrifice for "the greater good". (I am no dd, i like support roles)
    *i might've misunderstood the changes though, still noob.

    But, i am also sad for the healers as its such a noble profession and people enjoy being supportive. I hope there will be more balance in this regard and healers will be very desired but not required to balance the DD population.
    Edited by Demra on July 28, 2019 6:42PM
  • darkblue5
    darkblue5
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    These are basically all the suggestions, right?
    1. Nerf DD self heals, or
    2. Make Vigors/Rings not stack, or
    3. Give healers another expensive group DPS boosting spammable, or
    4. Healing specific stat, or
    5. Revert the changes and make the heals to others in PvP get cut in some way


    I'd prefer 2 or 4. 4 has no chance of happening I'd figure. 2 would let stam healers be a thing in dungeons and wouldn't let stam dps put out so much healing.
  • Saril_Durzam
    Saril_Durzam
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    We need option 1 or there will be a big difference between classes that can heal well (staminas with Vigor, Templars) and those who dont.

    For the healers be worthy, we need others need healing and not being able to cope with it in group situations.

  • SirDopey
    SirDopey
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    For my 2 cents:

    sounds like restro passives need to be reworked so that healing done, ultimate gained and buff durations are increased with a restro staff equipped.

    Said passive is then removed by battle spirit......
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  • Sanguinor2
    Sanguinor2
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    Yeah that was kinda what I was afraid off after reading the patch notes About healing changes. Maybe 1 healer will be replaced by a magplar dd with zen´s+martial that places ritual and uses the healing orbs and POTL? :/
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  • Iskiab
    Iskiab
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    Couple things:
    - you guys haven’t optimized your group around the changes
    - Echoing vigor doesn’t stack (or so I’m told)
    - Dps can easily slot the damaging morph of orbs since the damage is on par/better then other aoe attacks

    I think the game will change more then you guys think. It’ll be a larger rework of the meta then using the same abilities.
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  • Jodynn
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    Iskiab wrote: »
    Couple things:
    - you guys haven’t optimized your group around the changes
    - Echoing vigor doesn’t stack (or so I’m told)
    - Dps can easily slot the damaging morph of orbs since the damage is on par/better then other aoe attacks

    I think the game will change more then you guys think. It’ll be a larger rework of the meta then using the same abilities.

    It's not about what's meta it's about the healer being a useless role, meta is a whole other issue with class skills and some abilities being useless and identities.
    Jodynn PC NA
    PvE and PvP MagDK
    The lack of communication from ZOS to player speaks volumes.
  • Wuuffyy
    Wuuffyy
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    We need option 1 or there will be a big difference between classes that can heal well (staminas with Vigor, Templars) and those who dont.

    For the healers be worthy, we need others need healing and not being able to cope with it in group situations.

    How about healers adapt and stop trying to finish off whats left of solo and smaller content. I dont want to have to rely on people to get thru everything I want to do. When I as a DPS can no longer carry people thru vDSA for example without having a professional healer with me, then its time to hang it up.

    Fact is resto healing-only- needs to heal twice is current values and give more buffs and be labeled as the exception.
    Wuuffyy,
    ESO player since 2014
    -PM for questions
  • dcam86b14_ESO
    dcam86b14_ESO
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    As a healer, I will report everyone who tries to kick me from a dungeon. Bet
  • Ozby
    Ozby
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    As a healer, I will report everyone who tries to kick me from a dungeon. Bet

    I'm going to call this patch Volendrung the hammer!
    PC NA
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  • Ashtaris
    Ashtaris
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    Ozby wrote: »
    As a healer, I will report everyone who tries to kick me from a dungeon. Bet

    I'm going to call this patch Volendrung the hammer!

    I’m calling it Ballbreaker instead of Scalebreaker :)
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