Newbie's perspective on combat mechanics

washbern · July 2019

Yeah, I am not a pro at this game. I am not someone who could even parse well on a dummy. And man oh man do I love the idea behind gearing and item sets.

That said, holy cow do I hate the actual combat. Dont get me wrong, I enjoy dungeon and raid mechanics. I enjoy the action feel of the game. But... the combat... the actual feel of almost every character... it's awful.

In different MMOs each type of character or build plays different. some are slower, some are faster, some make you keep track of buffs some make you keep track of pets and so on. In ESO, though the idea of keeping track of buffs is there every class and build play absolutely the gosh darn same.

First, the game doesnt really give a crap if you are ranged or not. You still have to get into melee if you want to optimize your build. (ie use wall of elements or sets like grothdar and zaan.

Then, it doesnt matter what class you play because every class plays skill, light attack, skill, light attack. They all play at same pace, with slightly different rotations.

As much as I have grown to dislike pvp over the course of last several years, at least that experience in ESO offers some kind of combo risk reward playstyle variety.

Sorry for the rant but was hoping see if anyone shared my opinion or could recommend something I have not tried.

Thanks for reading.

Taleof2Cities · July 2019

How many different characters have you actually played, @washbern, to come to that conclusion? And what levels are they?

If you stick with it, I think you'll see the difference in playstyles ...

Red_Feather · July 2019

I won't disagree because everything you say is the number 1 reason why people say they disregard the game on places like r/mmorpg and mmorpg.com.

Ragnarock41 · July 2019

Combat in ESO has its ups and downs, This is the type of game that will be great for 3-6 months, and then some new patch will come out, it will change a class or skill or add a new set of changes that completely destroy the game you loved.

This kind of thing happens in a lot of other mmos but so much more often in this game because the balance ''vision'' of today differs from when this game was built from the ground up.

washbern · July 2019

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

How many different characters have you actually played, @washbern, to come to that conclusion? And what levels are they?

If you stick with it, I think you'll see the difference in playstyles ...

I have warden, templar, sorc and necro at level 50 with 510 cp. I have tried mag and stam on all classes plus dk whom I got to level 40. I go from character to character some days with almost zero variation in playstyle. sets have their impact on abilities I choose but have zero change on how fast I press my skills or in what order.

It is boring

VaranisArano · July 2019

If you don't like the "skill, light attack, skill, light attack" that characterizes most PVE DPS rotations, have you considered trying a tank or healer?

As support classes in PVE, tanks and healers have particular roles to fill that lets them be both proactive in supporting the group and reactive in combat.

Especially if you find basic DD play boring, trying to flawlessly combine healing + DPS or tanking + DPS can be a good way to change up otherwise stale content - for extra challenge amd unpredictability, PUG it.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · July 2019

. It is boring

If you are bored, play another game. It is all right to play other games.

xMovingTarget · July 2019

And it wont get better

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKvjUUGUTjs

washbern · July 2019

That video is so depressing. I can't get myself to even log into wow, ffxiv, gw2 or swtor. This, for me, was the last bastion of mmo games. There is so much of this game that I actually love. My goodness I wish they figure out how to fix combat because if the next patch goes in as it is now on pts, I do not think it will do the game any favors.

Taleof2Cities · July 2019

washbern wrote: »

I go from character to character some days with almost zero variation in playstyle. sets have their impact on abilities I choose but have zero change on how fast I press my skills or in what order.

It is boring

Well, in my experience I have the opposite problem.

I'll play one character (let's say Magicka Warden; Ice Tank) and then I have to switch to a dedicated healer for evening Raid. It takes some getting used to the different skills and finding the groove again.

Point is, if you select the same skills, same rotation, same gear sets ... you're going to get the same thing. And I agree that can get boring in a hurry.

Looks to me that it's not an issue with the upcoming patch. Rather, you don't want to make changes to diversify your gameplay. One playstyle is fine ... but when that gets boring (and you can't change) then it's time for a new game. As @Lightspeedflashb14_ESO already pointed out.

Czekoludek · July 2019

Well I know what you feel. Stam specs were very similar (in PvE) because they were focusing mainly on weapon skills. But now we will be pushed even more into homogenization by using almost no class skills. Next patch stam rota is almost identical with only minor changes. About mag, mag was much more diversified with mainly only blockade as a base of our rota. But with new patch all mag will play almost the same.
I understand advices to change your playstyle but issue is, meta for all classes looks almost the same in case of sets and rota. So if you want to change your playstyle, you decide to be less effective. With next patch it will be even worse and this is a real failure of dev team

Starlock · July 2019

For me, every character plays different because I prioritize on character, not combat mechanics. I have a vision of who the character is and what they can do, which I express with how I select skills and gear sets for them. I construct it in a way that lets me do the types of content I enjoy - soloing world bosses, occasional 4-person dungeons - and have had a lot of success with that. By focusing on a character concept, each resulting character is unique and plays very differently. Not saying this approach would necessarily work for you, @washbern , but it's a thought at any rate.

To illustrate with a couple examples, one of my characters is a dragonknight who is magicka-focused but does not use any sort of staff weapon. Let me tell you, trying to manage a magicka character who has no good way of restoring resources with heavy attacks creates interesting challenges that make for a distinctive play style. He's a hell of a lot of fun to play. Compare him, then, to one of my other characters who I built to revolve around the Eternal Hunt set. You know, the the set that leaves a fun poison rune behind when you dodge roll? I was a dodge-rolling bosmer before it was in fashion with the race changes, and that play style is a hell of a lot of fun too. If something gets close to her, she's doing it wrong.

BlackMadara · July 2019

Czekoludek wrote: »

Well I know what you feel. Stam specs were very similar (in PvE) because they were focusing mainly on weapon skills. But now we will be pushed even more into homogenization by using almost no class skills. Next patch stam rota is almost identical with only minor changes. About mag, mag was much more diversified with mainly only blockade as a base of our rota. But with new patch all mag will play almost the same.
I understand advices to change your playstyle but issue is, meta for all classes looks almost the same in case of sets and rota. So if you want to change your playstyle, you decide to be less effective. With next patch it will be even worse and this is a real failure of dev team

Playing the most optimal way is always going to lack diversity. This game does a good job at allowing people to play in many different fashions, and still be effective. That effectiveness doesn't mean the best, most efficient, etc.

You tend to get the most variety, and less stringency on META in PVP, however.

washbern · July 2019

Thanks guys! I'll give it a shot. Wanted to do some nifty things for a while now. I guess no better time than now

Wandering_Immigrant · July 2019

I find this to be an issue more with PvE DPS than with any other build type, that's why my damage dealer types usually end up as PvP characters and when I want to play PvE in a group I'll use a tank or healer.

washbern · July 2019

I am too scared to tank or heal lol

VaranisArano · July 2019

washbern wrote: »

I am too scared to tank or heal lol

If you feel like giving it a try, starting with specific dungeons from the easiest FG 1 on up is a very forgiving method to learn/relearn the mechanics from a tank or healer's POV. If you have experience as a DD, it should be pretty easy to adjust even as its a definite change of pace from how a DD plays.

Grandma · July 2019

washbern wrote: »

That video is so depressing. I can't get myself to even log into wow, ffxiv, gw2 or swtor. This, for me, was the last bastion of mmo games. There is so much of this game that I actually love. My goodness I wish they figure out how to fix combat because if the next patch goes in as it is now on pts, I do not think it will do the game any favors.

take the video with a grain of salt. unless you're pushing scores you can be competitive without it. Also, the vma dw weapons are being nerfed in the near future and won't be as good.

Suddwrath · July 2019

I've been playing this game for over 5 years and this still bothers me every now and then. In PvE, every class is basically just keeping up your DOTs for DPS. There aren't any slow-hitting classes that have slow but powerful hits. Everything is based around DOT management.

PvP is a slightly different as it does allow for more "burst" rather than revolving around DOTs. DOT builds exist in PvP too, but it isn't a requirement the same way that it is in PvE. Want to build a high weapon damage stamplar that can one-shot squishy players with a Dawnbreaker? Go for it! Want to delete an entire group of players by turning yourself into a bomb? Go for it!

So while the combat in PvE can feel kind of stale after a while since almost every class feels the same due to using many the same DOTs, there is more room in PvP for more "unique" feeling builds/styles which can feel different while still being effective.

blnchk · July 2019

About DOT management: I've always interpreted this as ESO's roundabout way of having cooldowns while pretending that it has none. Without this, PvE combat would lose all structure. How would you decide what skill to use when? What would keep you from spamming one skill over and over until you run out of resources?

Without timer management, DPS skills in PvE would have to work differently. They'd need be situational, conditional or perhaps build upon each other in some way. Maybe they'd need actual cooldowns. Instead, what we have is some sort of odd cooldown mimicry. I assume combat was designed this way to draw in the TES single-player crowd, but who knows. I agree it's all rather uneappling at its core.

bakthi · July 2019

VaranisArano wrote: »

washbern wrote: »

I am too scared to tank or heal lol

If you feel like giving it a try, starting with specific dungeons from the easiest FG 1 on up is a very forgiving method to learn/relearn the mechanics from a tank or healer's POV. If you have experience as a DD, it should be pretty easy to adjust even as its a definite change of pace from how a DD plays.

I started as a magplar, and soloed to ~CP200 (just doing the main story and the side quests I found along the way during the cake event). So I didn't really know how group content worked like, at all.

Took a DK tank from 10-50 doing basically nothing but the daily random normal for exp. It's easy enough to learn, and no dungeon you're allowed to enter will be that crazy for a while. Keep hate, face big thing away from party, block special attacks, apply weaken/crusher, maybe chain some stuff in, you're mostly fine. You probably are already aware of other important mechanics...more than I was! And now I've tanked vet DLC pledges on it, with PUGs as well as guild groups. I'm sure I have a lot to learn, but it's not so bad.

(and wow, the queue time; I even farm healer gear on my tank, if I'm PUGging it, just because I have to wait even less time. Unless I have crafting surveys to do.)

sly007 · July 2019

I agree with you. After 4 years of playing the game, hopping from build to build is very similar. But I have to disagree about them playing the same, especially in pvp. The pace to use I place my med stam dk 2h and bow ult gen build vs my heavy 2h and bow nb builds are utterly different. My mag dk plays and reacts differently in pvp than my mag nb. Yes, they all look the same and run the same and weave light and heavy attacks, but the pace, the spacing, and the reactions are not.