Silver_Strider wrote: »

I already know that PTS changes are more or less done else I wouldn't have titled this a Fool's Errand but I need to get this out my system. When 4.3.0 first dropped, it actually looked like a really nice patch. I had some nitpicks here in there but for the most part, everything looked fairly balanced and I was actually hopeful that this was a promising start for the new year. Some races were being opened up in ways that would give their off-spec choices slight buffs, such as Magic Redguard benefiting from the Weapon Cost Reduction to Destro and Resto abilities, and in the cases of Dunmer and Khajiit, having their off-specs completely opened up to play them competitively, which I was completely on board with. That all changed when 4.3.2 came out and altered several races that totally threw everything out of whack. Races that didn't need adjustments either got overtuned (Orc for example) or got some illogical change (like Spell Recharge for Altmer) because they didn't align with some misguided "vision" that ZOS had in mind. With each subsequent patch, those decisions just got worse and worse to a point that I just really can't say that I'm happy about the majority of it, especially when it all started off so promising. I have posted my concerns on a lot of the changes before and while I know I'm wasting my breath at this point, I would still like to list my suggestions as a Hail Mary pass in a last ditch effort to get some real balance this patch.

Altmer
Spell Recharge: Restore 600 Magic or Stamina, based on which is higher, upon activating a Class ability. This effect can occur once every 6 second. Increase Healing Done by 2%
Syrabane's Boon: Increase Max Magic by 2000
Elemental Talent: Increase Max Spell Damage by 179

I restored and buffed the original Spell Recharge effect as well as changed the Cast time buff into a 2% buff to healing done to make up for the reduction in Spell Damage. I felt the reason ZOS gave as to why they altered Spell Recharge was narrow minded as by removing the Magic Restore, they were handicapping Altmer Healers and not taking them into consideration at all. The 2% Healing Done was added to emphasize this point as well as being a more universally useful utility than the current 5% damage reduction with cast times. Their Spell Damage buff was toned down to offset the buff to sustain so that they weren't totally OP in terms of overall Magic usage.

Argonian
Resourceful: Increase Max Magic by 1000. Restore 12% of your Max Health, Magic and Stamina upon drinking a potion.
Argonian Resistance: Increase Max Health by 1000 and your Poison/Disease Resistance by 1155. Immune to Poison and Disease status effects
Life Mender: Increase Healing Received by 4%. Grants 10% Critical Damage and Healing

Since people won't stop exaggerating about how OP the potion passive, I just decided to revert the Morrowind change back to its old 12% Tri-Stat restore effect. I also gave back the poison resist/immunity that Argonian lost as it was lore friendly and made absolutely no sense to remove in the 1st place and it is weaker than the current Live amount so it's techinically still a nerf to Argonian. Finally, I reverted the Healing Done change for Healing Received but only at 4% since they received the 10% Critical Damage/Healing to make them still useful for healing roles while not being a total nerf to Argonian Tanks and actually opening up Argonian DPS a little without making them too powerful either.

Breton
Gift of Magnus: Increase Max Magic by 1750
Spell Annulment: Increase Spell Resistance by 2310 as well as an addition 2310 if afflicted by Burned, Chilled or Concussion status effects. Increase Magic and Stamina Regen by 110
Reduce the cost of Magic Abilities by 6%.

Yes, it's a nerf to Breton but Altmer lost almost 80 Spell Damage for their Sustain passive, it was only right for Breton to be toned down as well so that the balance wasn't too far off. Also, in terms of Lore, it was a bit nonsensical for Altmer and Breton to have the same amount of Max Magic. Still, they should have the best magic sustain of all races that they will still be comparable to Altmer in terms of Damage and Healing.

Dunmer
Dynamic: Increase Max Magic and Stamina by 1500
Resist Flame: Increase Max Health by 500 and Fire Resistance by 2310. Immunity to the Burned Status Effect
Ruination: Increase Spell and Weapon damage by 258

I wanted Altmer and Dunmer to be different in more ways. Dunmer has more Spell Damage but Altmer has more magic, Dunmer has Max Health while Altmer heals for more, Altmer has sustain vs Dunmer's dual stats. This was just a means of alternating the 2 Elves and having them offer different things while being on equal footing and while a Dunmer will still be a better Stamina DPS than a Stamina Altmer, a Magic Altmer will be a better Healer than a Magic Dunmer so it kind of evens out.

Khajiit
Robustness: Increase Health, Magic and Stamina Regen by 100
Lunar Blessing: Increase Max Health, Magic and Stamina by 750
Feline Ambush: Increase Weapon and Spell Critical Chance by 7%. Reduce your Detection Radius in Stealth by 3m

I restored Khajiit's Max Resource pools back to 750, while increasing their regen and returning their Crit chance, at a slightly lower potency to try and balance out their damage potential as much as possible with the current Shadow Mundus buff. By restoring their Max resource back down to 750 and reducing their Crit by 1%, I had hoped to keep them in check but I wanted them to be at least someone more sustainable as well so I increased their regen to 100 so that they could still be powerful on both Magic and Stamina roles.

Orc
Brawny: Increase Max Health by 1250 and Max Stamina by 1250
Unflinching: When you deal damage with a Weapon ability, restore 500 Health and 250 Stamina/Magic, whichever is higher. This ability has a 4 second CD. Reduces the cost of your Sprint ability by 12% and increases your Movement Speed while Sprinting by 10%.
Flawless Warrior: Increase Weapon Damage by 258

I altered Orc Stats a bit so that it was still a powerhouse but not to the extent it currently is. I lowered their Max Stamina by 750 and gave them a slight buff to health as well as added a small bit of stamina sustain to try and make it so Orc will still being a beast, just not so much of one that it just powers thru all other options.

Bosmer
Y'ffre's Blessing: Increase Stamina or Magic regen by 258, whichever is higher.
Resist Affliction: Increase Max Stamiana by 1750 and Posion/Disease Resistance by 1155. Immunity to Poison and Disease Status effects.
Hunter's Eye. Increase Weapon and Spell Penetration by 1500. Reduce the cost of Dodge rolling by 3% and after you Dodge Roll, increase movement speed by 10% for 6 seconds. Increase movement speed in Stealth by 25%.

I wanted to give Bosmer some more opened ended buffs to its racials so that it wasn't horribly gimped on the magic side while still maintaining a strong Stamina presence as well. I lowered their Max Stamina to make room for the permanent Weapon/Spell Pen value, while also allowing them to keep their old Poison/Disease resistance and immunity as well. The Dodge cost reduction is also a nice universal utility, offering more usage for both sides of the spectrum. I had to give them something for their Thieving Heritage as well and while it might not be as great as the reduced radius on Khajiit, I'm trying to give them something to help them maintain that bit of their lore while not being completely the same.

Redguard
Martial Training: Reduce the Cost of Weapon abilities by 8%
Conditioning: Increase Max Stamina by 2000
Adrenaline Rush: When you deal Direct Damage, you restore 950 Stamina. This effect can occur once every 5 seconds.

No changes because this is the 1 race I'm totally happy with.

Imperial
Tough: Increase Max Health by 1500
Imperial Mettle: Increase Max Stamina and Magic by 1500
Red Diamond: When you deal direct damage, restore 300 Health, Stamina and Magic. This effect has a 5 second CD. Reduce the cost of Class ability by 3%

I will be blunt here. I want Imperial to be a perfect Jack of All Trades. It'll have some good damage on both ends of the spectrum, offer good Tank or Healing capabilities but it shouldn't be as powerful as it currently is. I know that, at first glance, Imperial just seems like a decently balanced race currently but after a bit of experimenting, Imperial is currently offering a bit too much in terms of utility, sustain and damage, which is why I turned down their sustain tools and evenly divided their max resources so that they can still be a good race, just not TOO good. I also changed their universal cost reduction to only affect class skills so as to limit its current potential even more while still being a useful sustain tool.

Nord
Stalwart: Increase Max Stamina by 1500. When you take damage, Restore 750 Health and 600 Stamina+Magic. This effect has a 7 second CD.
Resist Frost: Increase Max Health by 1000 and Frost Resistance by 2310. Immunity to the Chilled Status Effect
Rugged: Increase Physical and Spell Resistance by 3960. Increase Weapon Damage by 129.

I hate that Nord is shoehorned into Tanks but I am at a complete loss in how to improve their performance in a way that make it more universally appealing with that Ultimate Regen buff. It's a great buff for Nord but at the same time, its something that is just unbalanced, even with it's pitiful 0.5 calculated amount because it makes the race only viable as a Tank without really opening up other avenues for Nord to do much else but be a Tank.. While my changes aren't the best, I just wanted Nord to be something other than a meat shield.

I know some of you will disagree with my suggested changes. Some of you will say that these are unbalanced in some way, and who knows, you might be right but I wanted to at least say my final words. I wanted Racials to be somewhat more open ended. I wanted Races like Bosmer or Breton to be able to play Magic or Stamina roles more effectively, even if it wasn't a huge change or something that made them meta. I wanted Races that were shoehorned into singular functions, like Nords, to be more meaningful outside of their niche. I WANTED BALANCE!!!!! I tried to be as fair as possible with these suggested even if I know it's far too late now.

I'm a fool for expecting it but I will hold on to this foolish hope that maybe one day, we'll actually get balance.

Arciris wrote: »

The funniest part about this is that Khajiit was changed nerfed because of parsing 500 dps at maximum above of other "magika" races.
Those 500 made them "seriously OP" and deserved a nerf for "very good reasons", but when they fall 1k behind it'a all cool and balanced,
Khajiit were not over performing to the point a simple tweak in numbers wouldn't have achieved parity or balance. 7% crit and 4.3.0 max resources values would have been enough.
It also seems that Altmer/Dunmer parsing higher is "natural" - that's not what balance is about.

And about the lore thing:

What if we discover in Elsweyr that Khajiits are actually the strongest magika race lore wise?
The thing is in TES, Khajiits were left in a mysterious spot, and not much is known about them. And just because Altmer auto proclamate themselves as "kings of magika" doesn't necessarily mean it is true, lore in TES is fractal, depending on different perspectives.
Plus in a lot of cultures across history, cats were seen as mythical creatures, with a very strong link to the magic world.
I don't see an issue with strong magical cars, rather than mediocre ones.

Arciris wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Arciris wrote: »

The funniest part about this is that Khajiit was changed nerfed because of parsing 500 dps at maximum above of other "magika" races.
Those 500 made them "seriously OP" and deserved a nerf for "very good reasons", but when they fall 1k behind it'a all cool and balanced,
Khajiit were not over performing to the point a simple tweak in numbers wouldn't have achieved parity or balance. 7% crit and 4.3.0 max resources values would have been enough.
It also seems that Altmer/Dunmer parsing higher is "natural" - that's not what balance is about.

And about the lore thing:

What if we discover in Elsweyr that Khajiits are actually the strongest magika race lore wise?
The thing is in TES, Khajiits were left in a mysterious spot, and not much is known about them. And just because Altmer auto proclamate themselves as "kings of magika" doesn't necessarily mean it is true, lore in TES is fractal, depending on different perspectives.
Plus in a lot of cultures across history, cats were seen as mythical creatures, with a very strong link to the magic world.
I don't see an issue with strong magical cars, rather than mediocre ones.

Wanna know something that is funny aswell? Altmer was ahead by less than that or even behind Breton during 4.3.0 and outparsed by khajiits, yet they got nerfed first while in the same patch khajiit got a (small) sustain buff. So if you are after always logical balance decisions you wont find them here, alltho that is something you could´ve noticed with recent patches always having veeeeeeeeeery questionable pvp stuff that got instantly nerfed and nightblades being top dps since years.
And regarding your lore thing: I dont know about you but for me a balance decision based on a hypothetical Scenario that might or might not happen in the next months or years seems very questionable.
Additionaly the Altmer description of being the kings of magika as you call them is not based on their own view, they describe themselves as the most advanced race, whether or not that is true does not matter here, nor do I want to be the judge of that. Rather them being the "most strongly gifted in the arcane arts of all the races" is part of their ingame description in atleast Oblivion and Skyrim, so it is the people making the lore saying that Altmer are the king of magika.

You missed the point. Balance means equality.

Balance doesn't mean: "due to Lore, Elfs should be better than anyone else at magic and therefore parse higher and heal better" (counting Bretons as Elfs because they are humans with Elf blood).

I am not saying that Khajiit should be better, just that their passives could have been tweaked so that precisely no one is better.
@Silver_Strider numbers could have been reviewed or maybe a Mundus stone balance shouldn't be more important than a Racial balance and they could have left the Shadow stone alone, at least until the dust settles off and they had data on how the racial balance was.

For any and every combat role , Khajiit is inferior to Dunmer.
And the ironic part, is that applies to both Magika and Stamina.

And don't give me the sustain argument.
Everyone knows that Dunmer can be Vampire without any downside whatsoever in PvE and get a free 10% Mag and Stam recovery. Those 10% is the same regen Khajiit get at base value, but it's more the more you spec into recovery.
On top of that Dunmer have more utility due to much larger resource pools.

That is NOT balance.
Maybe TES lore is racist and the place of beast folks is as inferior slaves and near the trash can, but the gameplay and mechanics shouldn't reflect that.

Equality is all the beast folks are asking for.

Now about Argonian, I would trade Red Diamond for Resourceful in a heart beat.

Resourceful is now the worst sustain tool because it is:
- tied to a consumable
- on a 45 seconds cooldown (there's a work around, but it costs so much it's barely worth it, except in very very niche scenarios)
- reactive and PvPers cry hard about anything reactive (muh they stole ma kill)
- other races have far better sustain on their main pool (which is more important)

Argonians are worst dps in any spec, are mediocre healers (yes, they are - Bretons and Imperials have better magika sustain than Argonians and Imperial gets more utility to the group via cheaper ultimates, and for 4 man content, the extra damage from Altmers will be prefered) and mediocre tanks (Nord master tank, followed by Imperial with both better sustain than Argonian and utility and even Redguard is a better choice)

Again, that is NOT balance.

On a side note: Racial passives should have never touch ultimates in anyway.

BattleAxe wrote: »

Arciris wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Arciris wrote: »

The funniest part about this is that Khajiit was changed nerfed because of parsing 500 dps at maximum above of other "magika" races.
Those 500 made them "seriously OP" and deserved a nerf for "very good reasons", but when they fall 1k behind it'a all cool and balanced,
Khajiit were not over performing to the point a simple tweak in numbers wouldn't have achieved parity or balance. 7% crit and 4.3.0 max resources values would have been enough.
It also seems that Altmer/Dunmer parsing higher is "natural" - that's not what balance is about.

And about the lore thing:

What if we discover in Elsweyr that Khajiits are actually the strongest magika race lore wise?
The thing is in TES, Khajiits were left in a mysterious spot, and not much is known about them. And just because Altmer auto proclamate themselves as "kings of magika" doesn't necessarily mean it is true, lore in TES is fractal, depending on different perspectives.
Plus in a lot of cultures across history, cats were seen as mythical creatures, with a very strong link to the magic world.
I don't see an issue with strong magical cars, rather than mediocre ones.

Wanna know something that is funny aswell? Altmer was ahead by less than that or even behind Breton during 4.3.0 and outparsed by khajiits, yet they got nerfed first while in the same patch khajiit got a (small) sustain buff. So if you are after always logical balance decisions you wont find them here, alltho that is something you could´ve noticed with recent patches always having veeeeeeeeeery questionable pvp stuff that got instantly nerfed and nightblades being top dps since years.
And regarding your lore thing: I dont know about you but for me a balance decision based on a hypothetical Scenario that might or might not happen in the next months or years seems very questionable.
Additionaly the Altmer description of being the kings of magika as you call them is not based on their own view, they describe themselves as the most advanced race, whether or not that is true does not matter here, nor do I want to be the judge of that. Rather them being the "most strongly gifted in the arcane arts of all the races" is part of their ingame description in atleast Oblivion and Skyrim, so it is the people making the lore saying that Altmer are the king of magika.

You missed the point. Balance means equality.

Balance doesn't mean: "due to Lore, Elfs should be better than anyone else at magic and therefore parse higher and heal better" (counting Bretons as Elfs because they are humans with Elf blood).

I am not saying that Khajiit should be better, just that their passives could have been tweaked so that precisely no one is better.
@Silver_Strider numbers could have been reviewed or maybe a Mundus stone balance shouldn't be more important than a Racial balance and they could have left the Shadow stone alone, at least until the dust settles off and they had data on how the racial balance was.

For any and every combat role , Khajiit is inferior to Dunmer.
And the ironic part, is that applies to both Magika and Stamina.

And don't give me the sustain argument.
Everyone knows that Dunmer can be Vampire without any downside whatsoever in PvE and get a free 10% Mag and Stam recovery. Those 10% is the same regen Khajiit get at base value, but it's more the more you spec into recovery.
On top of that Dunmer have more utility due to much larger resource pools.

That is NOT balance.
Maybe TES lore is racist and the place of beast folks is as inferior slaves and near the trash can, but the gameplay and mechanics shouldn't reflect that.

Equality is all the beast folks are asking for.

Now about Argonian, I would trade Red Diamond for Resourceful in a heart beat.

Resourceful is now the worst sustain tool because it is:
- tied to a consumable
- on a 45 seconds cooldown (there's a work around, but it costs so much it's barely worth it, except in very very niche scenarios)
- reactive and PvPers cry hard about anything reactive (muh they stole ma kill)
- other races have far better sustain on their main pool (which is more important)

Argonians are worst dps in any spec, are mediocre healers (yes, they are - Bretons and Imperials have better magika sustain than Argonians and Imperial gets more utility to the group via cheaper ultimates, and for 4 man content, the extra damage from Altmers will be prefered) and mediocre tanks (Nord master tank, followed by Imperial with both better sustain than Argonian and utility and even Redguard is a better choice)

Again, that is NOT balance.

On a side note: Racial passives should have never touch ultimates in anyway.

Racial passives can’t touch ultimates so basically max stats weapon and spell dmg crit dmg and healing along with penetration gotta go cuz they all touch ultimates. The logic about touching ultimates applies to everything except recoveries. So basically let’s gut every racial remove it and leave race as cosmetic.

BattleAxe wrote: »

All races got a resource increase passive of some kind. Nord orc and altmer are only 3 races who were not given a resource recovery passive. It comes down to how or wut are you gonna give these 3 races and still allow other races to be as appealing for certain roles. Sure altmer orc had resource recovery in the first pts patch things were pretty balanced then and even after things remained pretty balanced.

It comes down to what the differences between magicka and stamina are blocking dodge rolling and breaking free all cost stamina to compensate stamina skills cost less then magicka counterparts and effectively stamina dps can’t really use damage shields magicka players have a stamina pool and can use all the same abilities a stamina player can without costing them their damage resource on top of having damage shields. Also stamina dps tend to be more open to receiving damage due to having to be right in the fray. Orcs do have a strong utility passive to make up for having to be right in the fray. Altmers utility at first glance may seem very underwhelming but it’s implications are actually quite massive and can be used very effectively an example is isn’t there a cp passive that grants magicka when you are running sorc has dark conversion Templar’s make great use of the damage mitigation a dk may actually not as much as Templar but with molten armaments make use of the damage mitigation a warden and the The netch nightblade is about only class that won’t really recieve anything from the altmers utility aside from the running giving magicka cp. Altmers will also make for good runners in MoL just saying. The point is altmers utility may look underwhelming but with some ingenuity it can be quite good

BattleAxe wrote: »

The point being wasn’t searching for singular situations the point was everyone says it’s utterly useless I merely showed it has uses in pve and pvp maybe not amazing uses but they are still uses. Orcs get that health recovery utility passive what use is that if you have healers? Orcs sprint speed increase and its cost Reduction how is that useful if you are not sprinting?A utility passive is always gonna be situational so let’s face it. I can go thru every races utility passive and pick it apart if need be.

Utility passive: designed or adapted for general use

Axmouth wrote: »

I really like the look of these changes! Real pity we won't see them.

Only altmer healing passive seems out of place to me, but nothing I'd feel bad about. Nice job really.