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Example of power creep spiraling out of control

  • MikaHR
    MikaHR
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    Slack wrote: »
    MikaHR wrote: »
    Slack wrote: »
    You take a trash crafted set like Whitestreak and call it "base game set"
    And compare it to a trash monster set to prove your point...
    First of all monster sets are supposed to be strong.
    Secondly, Iceheart is also included in the base game.
    Thirdly, both sets suck in Pve and are absolute super garbage tier for pvp, so what are you even saying?

    Also all the complaining and grumpyness with apparently so little knowledge, seems like you started playing just a few days ago, got beaten up and now cry for nerfs on forums.
    (No worries tho, with that attitude you will fit in perfectly here)

    Stop being dumb, youre part of the problem.

    Oh Yea, of course you are the "Either you agree with me - or you are part of the problem/conspiracy type of guy"

    I suppose the unofficial, but universal ESO-Forum advice of "Git Gud" fits here

    I like when people like you dont even need and rebuttal because they invalidate all of their points in their own post.
  • Morgul667
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    Turelus wrote: »
    MikaHR wrote: »
    No not really, GEAR is the primary source of power creep with CP just adding to the fire.

    BOTH should be nerfed drasticall, preferably CP removed as source of combat stats and PROC SETS primarily nerfed by 50-70% and brought into line with base game sets.
    Gear used to be, then they standardised it for the most part. Sure some sets come out which work better than others in updates but the general values remain the same.

    The big changes were things like light attack buffs, Psijic skills etc. They've done much more to increase player damage than the new sets have.

    @Turelus yet everybody uses relequen siroria spell strategist...

    For me, the main source of power creep is the gear, even more than cp

    Simple test after an update put the new cp and witness the dps increase is minor

    Equip the new set and dps rises
  • Jeremy
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    MikaHR wrote: »
    Skwor wrote: »
    Power creep is not the problem you make it out to be, not even close to being a problem.
    Stupid one shot mechanics and all mobs still locked at cp 160 is the problem. This game needs to grow, which means mobs need to grow and we need to get back to some level based content instead of one tamrial for everything.

    There us a place for one tamrial but there is also a place for level gated content as well. We need both.

    Also your set comparison is wacked, they are not equal sets in effort to compare, you are effectively spiking the data.


    What, so new players cant catch up EVER?

    Great way to kill the game.

    Adding higher level content for higher level characters isn't going to kill the game. If anything, that's going to add more life to the game - because then players of all levels can still have fun.



    Edited by Jeremy on February 12, 2019 11:09AM
  • MikaHR
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    How did they get the gear if they cant do the content?
    mairwen85 wrote: »
    MikaHR wrote: »
    Turelus wrote: »
    Gear used to be, then they standardised it for the most part. Sure some sets come out which work better than others in updates but the general values remain the same.

    The big changes were things like light attack buffs, Psijic skills etc. They've done much more to increase player damage than the new sets have.

    And you write that in a thread giving one minor example of complete OPPOSITE.

    "psijic skills" "light attacks buffs" would be non issue IF gear/CP is dealt with.THEN you can go and do tweaks on other things, you dont go and spend a lot of time trying to "fix" minor things.

    You should go and check Pareto principle and dealing with gear/CP as primary source of out of control power creep would fix 80% of power creep issues.

    Referencing something to prove a point... but then discovering it actually proves the opposed view?

    As per your opening post, there is greater gear influence on Power Creep. Pair with additional buffs to Light attacks, new skill lines with skills out performing trial gear (e.g. Elemental Weapon vs Asylum) = 80%.

    CP is an underlying low volume stat increase with diminishing returns = 20%.

    Pareto principle would be to fix CP scaling first (20%), because that would resolve the gear, new skill line, LA buffs etc. (80%), because it's influence on those would be minimised.

    ZoS current action => do not raise CP cap. Review CP.

    So, ZoS are doing what you prescribe?

    20% of stuff cause 80% of problems and gear/CP is that 20%.

    And yeah, flat 20% on top of EVERYTHING is not "doing what i prescribed"

    So you think they will add 20% in next update just to remove it in the next after that?
  • mairwen85
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    Morgul667 wrote: »
    Turelus wrote: »
    MikaHR wrote: »
    No not really, GEAR is the primary source of power creep with CP just adding to the fire.

    BOTH should be nerfed drasticall, preferably CP removed as source of combat stats and PROC SETS primarily nerfed by 50-70% and brought into line with base game sets.
    Gear used to be, then they standardised it for the most part. Sure some sets come out which work better than others in updates but the general values remain the same.

    The big changes were things like light attack buffs, Psijic skills etc. They've done much more to increase player damage than the new sets have.

    @Turelus yet everybody uses relequen siroria spell strategist...

    For me, the main source of power creep is the gear, even more than cp

    Simple test after an update put the new cp and witness the dps increase is minor

    Equip the new set and dps rises

    CP is a small pool, but the influence is trickle down.
  • MikaHR
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    Jeremy wrote: »
    Adding higher level content for higher level characters isn't going to kill the game. If anything, that's going to add more life to the game - because then players of all levels can still have fun.

    Or just deal with insane power creep and make all the content "high level content" so ALL can enjoy ALL content....how about that?
    Slack wrote: »
    Anyway, discussing who takes "Whitestreak and Iceheart" as example of powercreep is futile.

    I'm not taking the bait anymore.
    You ain't getting no perfect roe from me

    maybe you should go and check dictionary for for "example"....and then comprehend what it means

    Glad youre out of this thread (doubt it) because youre part of the problem so useless.
    Edited by MikaHR on February 12, 2019 11:15AM
  • Skwor
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    MikaHR wrote: »
    Skwor wrote: »
    Power creep is not the problem you make it out to be, not even close to being a problem.
    Stupid one shot mechanics and all mobs still locked at cp 160 is the problem. This game needs to grow, which means mobs need to grow and we need to get back to some level based content instead of one tamrial for everything.

    There us a place for one tamrial but there is also a place for level gated content as well. We need both.

    Also your set comparison is wacked, they are not equal sets in effort to compare, you are effectively spiking the data.

    What, so new players cant catch up EVER?

    Great way to kill the game.

    Uhm.. you should realize power creep in the traditional sense favors new players and I support it.

    With new content gear and CP increase power. This allows those players who are not practiced enough for high end performance to finally be strong enough to do the previous expansion's content.
    The high end players get the new high end content to master and the less experienced stay in the normal end of the pool. This is healthy MMO growth.

    One Tamrial has broken that progression, we are long overdue for increasing level locked content.

    Our current problems are what one would expect from a lack of vertical progression of combat encounters. All mobs are cp 160 so all that is left are overtly complicated one shot mechanics. This leaves gear/cp power mismatched to the game.

    The game encounter content needs to grow vertically.

    Edited by Skwor on February 12, 2019 11:21AM
  • mairwen85
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    MikaHR wrote: »

    20% of stuff cause 80% of problems and gear/CP is that 20%.

    And yeah, flat 20% on top of EVERYTHING is not "doing what i prescribed"

    So you think they will add 20% in next update just to remove it in the next after that?

    You need to rethink your argument.

    CP, Gear and Skills are separate sources.

    The smallest source of influence is CP, but the affected result is everything else (gear and skills). Fixing the wider pool does not address the origin, but results in an endless progression of staggered nerfs and buffs.

    CP needs review first to minimise its impact on the remainder.

    Edited by mairwen85 on February 12, 2019 11:16AM
  • MikaHR
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    mairwen85 wrote: »

    CP and Gear are separate sources.

    *facepalm
    Skwor wrote: »

    Uhm.. you should realize power creep in the traditional sense favors new players and I support it.

    With new content gear and CP increase power. This allows those players who are not practiced enough for high end performance to finally be strong enough to do the previous expansion's content.
    The high end players get the new high end content to master and the less experienced stay in the normal end of the pool. This is healthy MMO growth.

    Ohhhhh riiiiiiiiiight, new players should do content they cant do because of power creep so they can do it easier!

    *double facepalm

    in fact even WoW introduced "catch up tokens"....invalidating 95% of their game. Only thing power creep does is make 99,99999% of content irrelevant....and very bad for long term health of the game.
    Edited by MikaHR on February 12, 2019 11:24AM
  • Jeremy
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    MikaHR wrote: »
    Jeremy wrote: »

    I could easily take off my monster set and it would still be easy.

    I also never said CP wasn't a factor. So you are mischaracterizing what it was I actually said.

    Oh ther is many more problematic gear other than monster sets. Generally gear/CP need a huge nerf. Preferably CP changed to just utility/non combat stuff.

    It's important for RPGs to continue to offer players ways to further improve and strengthen their character. That's what makes RPGs interesting to begin with. If you were to nerf everyone into a weakened and static state on par with new players - which seems to be the solution you are presenting here - I really couldn't think of a faster way to kill this game than that. A lot of players would simply become bored with their characters and go find something else to play.

  • MikaHR
    MikaHR
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    It is important for MMO to retain relevance of most (preferbaly ALL) of its content and not invlidate 99,999999% of it because of power creep.

    So instead of SEA of content....you have 1 room (or in best case scenario few rooms) of content that are relevant.

    Progression in RPG is done through story and growth of the world.

    Oh yeah, few WoW like players would quit, but player retention would be sky high....just like other ES games...you dont see them adding insane power creep items every few months to Syrim now, do you.
    Edited by MikaHR on February 12, 2019 11:31AM
  • juttaa77b16_ESO
    juttaa77b16_ESO
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    Comparing a monster set to a craftable 5 pc set is just apples and oranges imho.

    Basically, just like any other game, we all start out with literally nothing on an account and we fight and scrape together gear, experience, tactics, cp ....... to reach the level we are at now. It's normal to feel more powerful as we progress.

    We aren't overpowered with those monster sets in harder vet trials, but if we were to level from 1-50 in those sets maybe we would be, but who levels 1-50 in monster sets, which are only available at 40+?

    For those who really are new to the game, the game is hard enough, but for those leveling alts they have, not just the knowledge and accumulation of sets behind them, but also the experience and knowledge of game mechanics behind them as well.

    Gear proc sets were already balanced. I don't see how nerfing them will help, since it will imbalance end game. They seem to be mostly in a good place. There are always a couple items that can use some small adjustments, but generally sets are in a good place imho.

    If anything should or could be balanced. It should or could be done through game modes. So that more experienced players can fight mobs in overland areas and base game type 1 dungeons at a higher difficulty without it effecting the newer and casual players. I don't think veteran boredom should directly impact the newer and casual player base. They'll get to the harder content at their own pace, just like we did, if they want it.
    Edited by juttaa77b16_ESO on February 12, 2019 12:23PM
  • MikaHR
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    "Comparing a monster set to a craftable 5 pc set is just apples and oranges imho."

    Its all gear that you can use on your character. 1 is balanced and the other is broken compared ot first. Yes their power levels are apples and oranges and thats exactly what is causing 80% of insane power creep issues (combined with CP)
    Edited by MikaHR on February 12, 2019 11:32AM
  • Jeremy
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    MikaHR wrote: »
    Jeremy wrote: »
    Adding higher level content for higher level characters isn't going to kill the game. If anything, that's going to add more life to the game - because then players of all levels can still have fun.

    Or just deal with insane power creep and make all the content "high level content" so ALL can enjoy ALL content....how about that?
    Slack wrote: »
    Anyway, discussing who takes "Whitestreak and Iceheart" as example of powercreep is futile.

    I'm not taking the bait anymore.
    You ain't getting no perfect roe from me

    maybe you should go and check dictionary for for "example"....and then comprehend what it means

    Glad youre out of this thread (doubt it) because youre part of the problem so useless.


    There is nothing wrong with characters growing more powerful. After all: that is kind of the whole point of an RPG - to create a character and then steadily improve it so it can tackle more difficult challenges.

    I'm also not against One Tamriel. I thought it was a solid improvement to the game. So I'm not against scaled content that accommodates all players. But as Skwor was saying - the game needs to keep growing. That's why my preferred solution would be to simply add veteran zones. They already have veteran versions of the dungeons, so it's not as if it's a novel concept. That way players of varying level and skill could still enjoy all the content.
    Edited by Jeremy on February 12, 2019 11:33AM
  • juttaa77b16_ESO
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    The 2 piece isn't broken at all. It is functioning as intended, and it is intended for harder content which is why we get it later in the game, and not at level one.
    Edited by juttaa77b16_ESO on February 12, 2019 11:35AM
  • Skwor
    Skwor
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    MikaHR wrote: »
    mairwen85 wrote: »

    CP and Gear are separate sources.

    *facepalm
    Skwor wrote: »

    Uhm.. you should realize power creep in the traditional sense favors new players and I support it.

    With new content gear and CP increase power. This allows those players who are not practiced enough for high end performance to finally be strong enough to do the previous expansion's content.
    The high end players get the new high end content to master and the less experienced stay in the normal end of the pool. This is healthy MMO growth.

    Ohhhhh riiiiiiiiiight, new players should do content they cant do because of power creep so they can do it easier!

    *double facepalm

    in fact even WoW introduced "catch up tokens"....invalidating 95% of their game. Only thing power creep does is make 99,99999% of content irrelevant....and very bad for long term health of the game.

    Do you even try to understand? If the old content always stays at the "elite" difficulty level new/ casual players will NEVER see it. Most players will never play at that level becuase of time or just lack of will to practice so much and honestly that is just fine.
    Players get bored and leave.
    The "always" elite content and 1-plus old expansion gear rots as no one earns it or even cares to try, elites want the new stuff and you prefer to keep all others from ever earning even the older (what would now be mid level gear).

    This is not a hard concept to follow, seriously.
    Edited by Skwor on February 12, 2019 11:36AM
  • MikaHR
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    " That's why my preferred solution would be to simply add veteran zones."

    And they tried your "solution" and it already failed miserably and game almost died.

    You know the saying "doing same things over and over again and expecting different results"
    Skwor wrote: »
    Do you even try to understand? If the old content always stays at the "elite" difficulty level new/ casual players will NEVER see it. Most players will never play at that level becuase of time or just lack of will to practice so much and honestly that is just fine.
    Players get bored and leave. The always elite content and 1-plus old expansion gear rots as no one earns it or even cares to try, elites want the new stuff and you prefer to keep all others from ever earning even the older (what would now be mid level gear).

    This is not a hard concept to follow, seriously.

    And you know that there are different difficulty modes already in the game. normal+veteran+veteran hard mode?

    Yeah, its not really difficult concept to follow, like, seriously.
    Edited by MikaHR on February 12, 2019 11:38AM
  • Massive_Stain
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    MikaHR wrote: »
    Base set game 5 armor piece bonus:

    Whitestrake's Retribution

    LEVEL 50 - CP 160
    Type Craftable

    Set bonus
    (2 items) Adds 1206 Maximum Health
    (3 items) Adds 2975 Spell Resistance
    (4 items) Adds 129 Health Recovery
    (5 items) When you take damage while you are under 30% Health, you gain a damage shield that absorbs 10320 damage for 8 seconds. This effect can occur once every 15 seconds.


    Power creep 2 set bonus

    Iceheart

    LEVEL 50 - CP 160
    Type Monster Set

    Set bonus
    (1 item) Adds 833 Spell Critical
    (2 items) When you deal Critical Damage, you have a 20% chance to gain a damage shield that absorbs 8600 damage for 6 seconds. While the damage shield holds, you deal 770 Frost Damage to all enemies within 5 meters of you every 1 second. This effect can occur once every 6 second


    Not only is 2 piece set several time BETTER it also deals damage as a bonus over 5 piece armor set. And, to cheese it out...you can stack both.

    ZOS needs to apply HUGE nerfs to ALL proc sets because it is spiraling OUT of control. Instead, they inted to BUFF all that by another 20% when reacihng CP300 in next update. That MUST NOT happen.

    This is not an example of power creep lol. This is an example of why dps can't dps 😂
    I'm a Banana fore life
  • Skwor
    Skwor
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    MikaHR wrote: »
    " That's why my preferred solution would be to simply add veteran zones."

    And they tried your "solution" and it already failed miserably and game almost died.

    You know the saying "doing same things over and over again and expecting different results"
    Skwor wrote: »
    Do you even try to understand? If the old content always stays at the "elite" difficulty level new/ casual players will NEVER see it. Most players will never play at that level becuase of time or just lack of will to practice so much and honestly that is just fine.
    Players get bored and leave. The always elite content and 1-plus old expansion gear rots as no one earns it or even cares to try, elites want the new stuff and you prefer to keep all others from ever earning even the older (what would now be mid level gear).

    This is not a hard concept to follow, seriously.

    And you know that there are different difficulty modes already in the game. normal+veteran+veteran hard mode?

    Yeah, its not really difficult concept to follow, seriously.

    Of which the best gear only drops at the hardest level and currently uses one shot mechanics instead of a slow power growth to challange players. Basically you make my arguement for me but it seems you again fail to understand your own examples.
  • Jeremy
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    MikaHR wrote: »
    It is important for MMO to retain relevance of most (preferbaly ALL) of its content and not invlidate 99,999999% of it because of power creep.

    So instead of SEA of content....you have 1 room (or in best case scenario few rooms) of content that are relevant.

    Progression in RPG is done through story and growth of the world.

    Oh yeah, few WoW like players would quit, but player retention would be sky high....just like other ES games...you dont see them adding insane power creep items every few months to Syrim now, do you.

    It's not "power creep" that's invalidating content. It's the fact the content has remained static while character progression hasn't. The content needs to keep up with character's level and not remain scaled at level 160.

  • MikaHR
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    You just said "power creep doesnt invalidate content because power creep invlidates content".

    *clap clap clap
    Skwor wrote: »
    Of which the best gear only drops at the hardest level and currently uses one shot mechanics instead of a slow power growth to challange players. Basically you make my arguement for me but it seems you again fail to understand your own examples.

    So i can go in naked and if i pass "one shot mechanics" i pass the content. Now post a video of you doing that.

    You fail to understand basic stuff that it is just mathematics and numbers game.
    Edited by MikaHR on February 12, 2019 11:57AM
  • Reistr_the_Unbroken
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    MikaHR wrote: »
    It is important for MMO to retain relevance of most (preferbaly ALL) of its content and not invlidate 99,999999% of it because of power creep.

    So instead of SEA of content....you have 1 room (or in best case scenario few rooms) of content that are relevant.

    Progression in RPG is done through story and growth of the world.

    Oh yeah, few WoW like players would quit, but player retention would be sky high....just like other ES games...you dont see them adding insane power creep items every few months to Syrim now, do you.
    Can we see some stats on those bs numbers? Sources?

    And oh my god can we stop with the nerf this, nerf that threads? Cause that’s what’s really going to kill the game instead of this fictional “power creep”.
  • MikaHR
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    You can implement "one shot mechanic" on lvl1 swarm type mob. Its irrelevant for the discussion at hand.

    And growth is normal -> veteran -> veteran hard mode....without power creep because you are supposed to get better at the game.

    And yeah, "normal" "veteran" and such should be NORMALIZED throught the game. not "normal for dungeon x is like vet for dungeon y"
    Edited by MikaHR on February 12, 2019 12:17PM
  • Skwor
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    MikaHR wrote: »
    You can implement "one shot mechanic" on lvl1 swarm type mob. Its irrelevant for the discussion at hand.

    My premise is one shot mechanics has been overused to compensate for a lack of a healthy slow vertical progression of game encounters and is a contibutor to the current gamplay issues we are discussing.
    That it can be added to a level one encounter is the irrelevancy in this discussion, one I will add that you have introduced.
  • Jeremy
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    MikaHR wrote: »
    You just said "power creep doesnt invalidate content because power creep invlidates content".

    *clap clap clap
    Skwor wrote: »
    Of which the best gear only drops at the hardest level and currently uses one shot mechanics instead of a slow power growth to challange players. Basically you make my arguement for me but it seems you again fail to understand your own examples.

    So i can go in naked and if i pass "one shot mechanics" i pass the content. Now post a video of you doing that.

    You fail to understand basic stuff that it is just mathematics and numbers game.

    No.

    I said it was the discrepancy between the level of the character and the level of the content that is responsible for trivializing the content.

    Power creep
    is when updates to the game introduce more powerful enemies and abilities that cause the older ones to become under-powered and irrelevant. That's really not as big an issue on this game as with many others. Even the armor sets you single out as supposedly being an example of "power creep" (such as Ice Heart Monster Set) were included in the game years ago. So just the fact it is still used today disproves your own argument.

    The larger issue with this game is that more challenging content isn't introduced with updates to the game. Sure - they'll throw out a dungeon here and there with a lot of gimmicky one-shot mechanics, but that's about the extent of it.
    Edited by Jeremy on February 12, 2019 12:23PM
  • MikaHR
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    Jeremy wrote: »
    My premise is one shot mechanics has been overused to compensate for a lack of a healthy slow vertical progression of game encounters and is a contibutor to the current gamplay issues we are discussing.
    That it can be added to a level one encounter is the irrelevancy in this discussion, one I will add that you have introduced.


    One shot mechanics is "artificial difficulty" and is what devs across MMOs use because they cant come up with anything better.

    Like simple "pull two levers simultaneously" to prevent people from soloing dungeons.

    But encounter design and lack of innovation aroudn it is irrelevant for the discussion.
    Jeremy wrote: »

    No.

    I said it was the discrepancy between the level of the character and the level of the content that is responsible for trivializing the content.

    You mean the definition of power creep.

    Yeah, content isnt cacthing up with power creep (and it isnt healthy to do so long term) because new players dont enter the game with 810 CP and top gear. 99,999999999999% of playerbase dont have that.

    "VET levels" arent coming back, the only reasonable solution is to kurb power creep and stop invalidating all content so that BOTH new and old players can enjoy it.
    Edited by MikaHR on February 12, 2019 12:25PM
  • WuffyCerulei
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    So a set that requires you to do a vet dungeon to get one piece and then grind undaunted keys to get the right shoulder needs to be nerfed because it’s better than a craftable set that you can someone make for you in like 10 minutes? On top of that, you can have the right trait and weight to the crafted set right off the bat. However, you either have to grind to get the right trait or take several days getting 50 transmute stones to transmute just one piece of the monster set.
    I will kick everyone's butt, even my own.

    PC NA
    CP 1200+
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    vMA/vHel Ra HM/vAA HM/vSO HM/vMoL/vHoF HM/vAS +2/vCR
    Dragon-in-Shadows - Argonian Magicka Nightblade - Shadow Breaker
    Eossos - Khajiit Magicka Templar
    Death-Singer - Argonian Magicka Nightblade
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