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Khajiit(4.3.2) Critical Hit Chance vs Khajiit(4.3.3) Critical Hit Damage Breakdown/Analysis

susmitds
susmitds
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Hey there,

I got spammed with messages for what the critical changes to Khajiit means. It is very similar to the Shadow vs Thief calculations I showed before. Getting straight to it -

Let X = Minimum Critical Hit Chance required for New Khajiit to at least equal Old Khajiit. For greater values, New Khajiit will become stronger than Old Khajiit.
Taking Current Critical Hit Damage = 1.50 (Base) + 0.1 (Class Passive) + 0.1 (Minor Force - 100% uptime) + 0.18 (CP) + 0.06 (Major Force - 40% uptime of 0.15) = 1.94
Critical Hit Damage with New Khajiit = 1.94+0.10=2.04


So, the equation below will give us the sweet spot, when New Khajiit will beat Old Khajiit.
plot.png
plot2.png

X = 97.5% Critical Hit Chance

So, we need 97.5% Critical Hit Chance or more for New Khajiit to be at least equal to Old Khajiit.

This percentage gets higher with the more Critical Hit Damage you have.

For E.g. With Shadow, X = 99.04%

Similarly, the lower your base Critical Hit Damage you will have, X be lesser will be.

For E.g, On non-crit DMG classes (not NBs and Templars) , X = 96.72%

All in all, this is a very significant nerf for PvE. To find out how much DPS loss this is, we need to insert the Critical Hit Chance of the build concerned we have in the formula in the place of X. The higher your Critical Hit Damage

Repurcussions of the Change :-
  • Khajiit overall nerfed for PvE compared to previous PTS patch. Magicka based Khajiit builds will be hit harder as Magicka meta builds have around 58% Critical Hit Chance. Khajiit Nightblades and Khajiit Templars will take the biggest nerfs.
  • Previously, Khajiit used to benefit highest from Warhorn. Now, Khajiit will benefit the least of all races from Warhorn.
  • Khajiit overall buffed for PvP. Remember the 10% Sneak Damage Khajiit and Wood Elves lost? Well, it is back, except it now applies to all crits. This is a buff to gankers.
  • This needs testing to confirm which I will do over the next few days, but calculation-wise 10% Critical Damage is significantly weaker than 254 Weapon Damage. Only above around 9600 Effective Weapon/Spell Damage(Max Resources + Base Spell/Weapon Damage) and 80% Critical Hit Chance, 10% Critical Damage equals 254 Damage. This can mean Khajiit will be significantly weaker in Damage output compared to Altmer/Dunmer/Orc. Note - As I said before I haven't tested this yet so I can't confirm.
Edited by susmitds on February 11, 2019 10:07PM
  • ChunkyCat
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    Cliff Notes?
  • Jhalin
    Jhalin
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    Wow... from biggest buffs to biggest nerfs for PvE

    That’s demoralizing
    Edited by Jhalin on February 11, 2019 8:55PM
  • FrancisCrawford
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    Sorry to post simple questions whose answers are surely alerady in your previous posts and calculations, but I'm missing something in the mechanics:
    • Isn't it the case that the benefit is simply the product of total crit chance and total crit additional-damage?
    • If so, isn't 10% crit damage better than 8% crit chance except in cases where total crit additional-damage is at least 1.25 x total crit chance?
    • How high does crit additional-damage get? There's 50% to start with, a CP contribution that's probably in the teens of %, Minor Force, Major Force (well under 100% uptime, unlike the others, which should all have near-perfect uptime), perhaps a class buff, perhaps a racial buff ... and what else?
    Edited by FrancisCrawford on February 11, 2019 8:51PM
  • Drdeath20
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    Didnt every race recieve a nerf?
  • susmitds
    susmitds
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    @FrancisCrawford It is a buff for builds that have lesser Critical Hit Damage than Critical Hit Chance. The thing is that no build in the game has lesser Critical Hit Damage than Critical Hit Chance.

    Only reason that this can be even considered a buff for PvP is if the opponent has over 3000 Crit Resists and you have significantly high Critical Hit Chance. Only difference for Stealth Attacks and attacks after Shadowy Disguise. These attacks have 100% Critical Hit Chance, making this a buff.
  • Masel
    Masel
    Class Representative
    It's a nerf, but not a significant one. I tested around a bit with it on stamina builds and it is not a lot, more like 0.5-1% in total damage output.

    I actually like that you can now use it on races that do lot have as much critical damage and get a higher benefit.
    Edited by Masel on February 11, 2019 9:03PM
    PC EU

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  • Bigevilpeter
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    When did you have time to make all these calculations?

    Lets say average crit chance before patch was 70% and 78% for Khajit and average crit damage was 90

    So if you have 78 crit change 90 crit damage you get 148% damage average and if you have 70% crit chance and 100 crit damage you get 140% average damage so yeah new one is actually weaker unless new builds start to stack more crit chance
  • PapaWeeb
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    Masel wrote: »
    It's a nerf, but not a significant one. I tested around a bit with it on stamina builds and it is not a lot, more like 0.5-1% in total damage output.

    I actually like that you can now use it on races that do lot have as much critical damage and get a higher benefit.

    If the DPS difference is truly that small, then it's nothing to worry about. Khajiits were doing really good DPS (given favourable crit RNG), losing 1% but gaining stronger heals isn't the end of the world
    PC EU
  • nsmurfer
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    @Masel thing is why anyone ever choose Khajiit over Dunmer now?

    On live, almost no one uses Shadow(9% crit dmg) over Warrior/Apprentice(230 wep/spel dmg).

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/366347/shadow-vs-warrior-apprentice-whats-the-point-of-shadow

    This post shows that Warrior gives bigger Crits than Shadow.

    Wouldn't same happen here?

    0.5-1% DPS loss(300-600 DPS loss at the 60K range) on the stamina side will push Khajiit to one of the lowest of the races. It will be even higher in the magicka side. Dunmer will do everything better. Why bring Khajiit to raids, if Khajiit gets the lowest benefit of raid buffs?

    Even in PvP, this will be a net healing loss as most builds have around 1.65 crit healing modifier in CP. Using the formula here my calculations say, it is a nerf unless the build has over 50% crit chance. Also, against enemies with sub 3000 crit resist it is again a nerf.
    Edited by nsmurfer on February 11, 2019 9:14PM
  • FrancisCrawford
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    susmitds wrote: »
    @FrancisCrawford It is a buff for builds that have lesser Critical Hit Damage than Critical Hit Chance. The thing is that no build in the game has lesser Critical Hit Damage than Critical Hit Chance.

    Only reason that this can be even considered a buff for PvP is if the opponent has over 3000 Crit Resists and you have significantly high Critical Hit Chance. Only difference for Stealth Attacks and attacks after Shadowy Disguise. These attacks have 100% Critical Hit Chance, making this a buff.

    @susmitd,

    But the number was increased from 8 to 10%, correct? So the breakeven would be when Critical Hit Damage is 5/4 of Critical Hit Chance, not when they're equal.
  • Minno
    Minno
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    ChunkyCat wrote: »
    Cliff Notes?

    Instead of buffing all other races to the point of them being OP, they nerfed kitty instead lol
    Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
    - Guild-lead for MV
    - Filthy Casual
  • LiquidPony
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    There seems like there's something wrong with this math ... and I don't follow why your "new crit damage modifier" is noted as 0.19, but appears to be only 0.9 (2.04 - 0.9 = 1.95), when in reality it's 0.10?

    The calculations for damage increase from crit I normally use are as follows:

    Crit chance increase = 1 + (new crit chance * crit modifier) / (1 + crit chance * crit modifier)

    Crit modifier increase = 1 + (new crit modifier * crit chance) / (1 + crit chance * crit modifier)

    So let's take a raid-buffed parse I'm looking at right now, on a stamblade:

    81.5% mean weapon critical, 99.1% mean critical damage

    Crit chance increase = 1 + (0.08 * 0.991) / (1 + 0.815 * 0.991) = +4.385%

    Crit modifier increase = 1 + (0.1 * 0.815) / (1 + 0.815 * 0.991) = +4.508%

    So unless I'm just doing this totally wrong, in this case, at 81.5% weapon critical, the new bonus is better.
  • RogueShark
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    This is totally fine. I really wanted to go from a nice crit heal chance to stupid-negligible increased heal crits. Amazing.

    /s
    PC NA
    Will heal DPS for memes.
  • Jimmy
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    What is happening to ESO? How are they screwing this up this bad? These people over at ZOS just opened a can of worms with this whole racial passive rework. Ultimately, across the board, it's nerf nerf nerf. This is so sad.
    PC NA
    @SkruDe
  • susmitds
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    @LiquidPony I copied the text from the Mundus calculation and forgot to change it there. Fixed now.

    The Formula Img is new and it didn't have the error though.

    Total DPS output = Crit-DMG + Non-Crit-DMG

    Formula basically plots new DPS output vs old DPS output
  • Masel
    Masel
    Class Representative
    Jimmy wrote: »
    What is happening to ESO? How are they screwing this up this bad? These people over at ZOS just opened a can of worms with this whole racial passive rework. Ultimately, across the board, it's nerf nerf nerf. This is so sad.

    We're at 60k dps and people complain about nerfs. We need to stop the power creep, not worsen it.

    This is not a universal nerf, it is simply shifting the bonus over to the other side of the multiplication.

    The nerf is just occurring due to the abundance of critical damage you have in cp content. On stamina builds this passive is very much useful, especially with all the critical sets lying around.
    PC EU

    All Trial Trifecta Titles Done!

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  • Edziu
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    Masel wrote: »
    Jimmy wrote: »
    What is happening to ESO? How are they screwing this up this bad? These people over at ZOS just opened a can of worms with this whole racial passive rework. Ultimately, across the board, it's nerf nerf nerf. This is so sad.

    We're at 60k dps and people complain about nerfs. We need to stop the power creep, not worsen it.

    This is not a universal nerf, it is simply shifting the bonus over to the other side of the multiplication.

    The nerf is just occurring due to the abundance of critical damage you have in cp content. On stamina builds this passive is very much useful, especially with all the critical sets lying around.

    Im at 40k to 50k with support dps because I dont playa nd I dont really like that horrific meta like for stam we have...and I feel nerfed to ground by this because now Im sitting at 60% crit chance so I will drop to just 52%...or at most to 57% if I drop my beloved axe for 2nd stupid dagger and I feel here more nerfed than I would be sitting with meta gear at 70-80%+ crit chance
    Edited by Edziu on February 11, 2019 9:50PM
  • Masel
    Masel
    Class Representative
    susmitds wrote: »
    @FrancisCrawford It is a buff for builds that have lesser Critical Hit Damage than Critical Hit Chance. The thing is that no build in the game has lesser Critical Hit Damage than Critical Hit Chance.

    Only reason that this can be even considered a buff for PvP is if the opponent has over 3000 Crit Resists and you have significantly high Critical Hit Chance. Only difference for Stealth Attacks and attacks after Shadowy Disguise. These attacks have 100% Critical Hit Chance, making this a buff.

    @susmitd,

    But the number was increased from 8 to 10%, correct? So the breakeven would be when Critical Hit Damage is 5/4 of Critical Hit Chance, not when they're equal.

    This is actually true.

    If you have 50% of both, 8% critical chance will net you less gain than 10% critical damage. In general it wont change the result, because you have a lot more base critical damage than base critical chance, but it's still a difference.

    PC EU

    All Trial Trifecta Titles Done!

    Youtube:
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChVEG6ckuAgGs5OyA6VeisA
  • LiquidPony
    LiquidPony
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    susmitds wrote: »
    @LiquidPony I copied the text from the Mundus calculation and forgot to change it there. Fixed now.

    The Formula Img is new and it didn't have the error though.

    Total DPS output = Crit-DMG + Non-Crit-DMG

    Formula basically plots new DPS output vs old DPS output

    I'm using the old standard Asayre crit damage equations:

    f3137af20108710238b7b326a3158de8.png

    3b84f2fbc4cc8e342df418b7573c13d6.png
  • nsmurfer
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    @Masel

    Actually, I am not opposed to nerfs to keep power creep in check. But nerfing one race and leaving other the same, just the racial hierrarchy will change. Dunmer and Khajiit were virtually the same in DPS output and both fill the same role, Hybrid. You change one and leave the other constant, one automatically becomes better than the other.

    Now, Khajiit is a niche weaker version of dunmer.
  • Masel
    Masel
    Class Representative
    nsmurfer wrote: »
    @Masel

    Actually, I am not opposed to nerfs to keep power creep in check. But nerfing one race and leaving other the same, just the racial hierrarchy will change. Dunmer and Khajiit were virtually the same in DPS output and both fill the same role, Hybrid. You change one and leave the other constant, one automatically becomes better than the other.

    Now, Khajiit is a niche weaker version of dunmer.

    I don't think that is true. Wait for dps tests and then we can talk again. I dont have my sheet at hand but I think the change wasnt even noticable.
    PC EU

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  • FrancisCrawford
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    Masel wrote: »
    susmitds wrote: »
    @FrancisCrawford It is a buff for builds that have lesser Critical Hit Damage than Critical Hit Chance. The thing is that no build in the game has lesser Critical Hit Damage than Critical Hit Chance.

    Only reason that this can be even considered a buff for PvP is if the opponent has over 3000 Crit Resists and you have significantly high Critical Hit Chance. Only difference for Stealth Attacks and attacks after Shadowy Disguise. These attacks have 100% Critical Hit Chance, making this a buff.

    @susmitd,

    But the number was increased from 8 to 10%, correct? So the breakeven would be when Critical Hit Damage is 5/4 of Critical Hit Chance, not when they're equal.

    This is actually true.

    If you have 50% of both, 8% critical chance will net you less gain than 10% critical damage. In general it wont change the result, because you have a lot more base critical damage than base critical chance, but it's still a difference.

    Thanks.

    I'm confused by the assertion that 97.5% crit chance is the breakeven point, because I have trouble imagining how to get crit damage to 1.25 times that.

    It's totally obvious that the break even point is 40% or higher (because one starts with 50% crit damage no matter what). I have little doubt that a max-CP build will take crit damage over 60% just via CP, and further increases go on from there. So that gets breakeven crit chance over 50%. But I still can't imagine how it could be so extremely close to 100%, because I have no idea how crit damage could get into the 120%+ range.
    Edited by FrancisCrawford on February 11, 2019 9:39PM
  • Grandma
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    i was so excited. <:(
    GH / 3/04/2021 / Elemental Catalyst Necromancer
  • Arciris
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    I'm so disappointed by this. This patch looked great but the Devs are loosing their minds with all this feedback.
    Dear Devs, you don't need to listen to player feedback! Your first iteration on racial passives was almost spot on: except for Imperial, Argonian and Wood-Elf that still needed some buffs, everything was fine the first time!

    Now we have:
    - Khajiit overnerfed in PvE and overbuffed for PvP ganker playstyle.
    - Orc massively buffed for PvE DPS and overbuffed for PvP brawler playstyle.

    And for magika nothing changes, it's still going to be Altmer, Dunmer and Breton, so why ant changes at all?
  • CP5
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    Masel wrote: »
    Jimmy wrote: »
    What is happening to ESO? How are they screwing this up this bad? These people over at ZOS just opened a can of worms with this whole racial passive rework. Ultimately, across the board, it's nerf nerf nerf. This is so sad.

    We're at 60k dps and people complain about nerfs. We need to stop the power creep, not worsen it.

    This is not a universal nerf, it is simply shifting the bonus over to the other side of the multiplication.

    The nerf is just occurring due to the abundance of critical damage you have in cp content. On stamina builds this passive is very much useful, especially with all the critical sets lying around.

    As my bit of feedback, having a race with crit chance means you can do more interesting things with your build, this change turns khajiit in a 180 making you have to chase the meta to take full advantage of the passive, so rather than being to build around things other than crit now you have to. Add in the fact that, if zos really wants hybrid races (which I would find interesting to play), 8% of both crit types may have actually made them some what, kind of, viable, but this change, again, forces you to run as much crit as possible and for many players will result in a loss.
  • Jaimeh
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    Thank you for the analysis. It makes sense that to benefit from added critical hit damage, you have to have a high critical chance to begin with, but it's good to have a concrete number to know just how much. For PvE, I think people will have to build around critical chance (with sets like Mechanical Acuity, etc.) to specifically take advantage of this.
  • susmitds
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    nsmurfer wrote: »
    @Masel

    Actually, I am not opposed to nerfs to keep power creep in check. But nerfing one race and leaving other the same, just the racial hierrarchy will change. Dunmer and Khajiit were virtually the same in DPS output and both fill the same role, Hybrid. You change one and leave the other constant, one automatically becomes better than the other.

    Now, Khajiit is a niche weaker version of dunmer.

    I think, this is an overreaction though. It should still be fairly similar. It is statistically a wrong practice to act on assumptions. The tests will happen very soon, as soon me and my guildies get back home and we have everyone create chars.
  • Bladerunner1
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    The correct answer to this

    plot.png

    Is 75.2%, not, 97%
  • susmitds
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  • Azyle1
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    I mean I just kinda feel like this is a bummer if its really a nerf. I hope it isn't too bad.
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