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• [COMPLETE] PC/Mac: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – June 8, 1:00AM EDT (5:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
• [COMPLETE] Xbox: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – June 7, 10:00PM EDT (June 8, 2:00 UTC) - June 8, 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
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Zergsolver?
-
dsalter✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭This thread... I wouldn't believe it if i hadn't read it
Cyrodiil is AvAvA that means Alliance versus Alliance versus Alliance.
"Small scale" and "solo" are aberrations in that context.
That trend only started because
a) streamers stream through their own camera, so they favor solo, small group play,
b) there wasn't Dueling nor Battlegrounds for a long time, so any kind of PvP had to happen in the AvAvA map.
In AvAvA, grouping should be encouraged, not the other way around.
Cyrodiil is a War zone, and Wars are won by Armies, not by a bunch of random solo guys doing random solo, small scale stuff. (Some small groups can help taking minor objectives or guard choke points - guerrilla style - but in the end, it's always the Army that wins the War).
This is coming from someone who doesn't give a F about PvP (anymore), I only go there for events, skill points and achievements.
When I go to Cyrodiil, I end up either being solo or zerging borderline stupid zergs, so I know the "pain" of being rolled over by bigger and/or better organised groups. And it is absolutely fine and fair. "C'est la vie!"
grouping should be encouraged. balling so your practically invincible balls of man meat rolling over everything and just eating them should NOT be encouraged.
"Balling" is Organized Group Play.
That's all there is to it, no matter what kind of pejorative term players come up with to refer to it.
If you have issues with Organized Groups, form your own Organized Group to beat them. That's why there are Armies IRL.
Don't expect a group of peasants with pitchforks to defeat a well-trained, well equipped Army, it's just not going to happen
did you just compare balling to real life armies..?
the military would make you spread out or risk explosives or artillery cluster killing you all.
also there have been times where "peasants" have overwhelmed the local armed forces.
See the taking of the Normandy's beaches during WWII for point 1. Also please remember this is a Medieval Fantasy world, looking at how the Roman armies worked would be more accurate (remember the "turtle" tactic, closed ranks stuff?
About point 2: the only time "peasants" have overwhelmed organised armies was when they vastly outnumbered said army.
still, you are touching on realty for your validation of why blobs should stay. the balance of the game comes first. and currently blobs dominate any other viable play style or tactic because they are just unstoppable balls of flesh that only get consumed by bigger blobs.PLEASE REPLY TO ME WITH @dsalter otherwise i'm likely to miss the reply if its not my own thread
EU - [Arch Mage Dave] Altmer Sorcerer
Fight back at the crates and boxes, together we can change things.2 -
Arciris✭✭✭✭✭
✭This thread... I wouldn't believe it if i hadn't read it
Cyrodiil is AvAvA that means Alliance versus Alliance versus Alliance.
"Small scale" and "solo" are aberrations in that context.
That trend only started because
a) streamers stream through their own camera, so they favor solo, small group play,
b) there wasn't Dueling nor Battlegrounds for a long time, so any kind of PvP had to happen in the AvAvA map.
In AvAvA, grouping should be encouraged, not the other way around.
Cyrodiil is a War zone, and Wars are won by Armies, not by a bunch of random solo guys doing random solo, small scale stuff. (Some small groups can help taking minor objectives or guard choke points - guerrilla style - but in the end, it's always the Army that wins the War).
This is coming from someone who doesn't give a F about PvP (anymore), I only go there for events, skill points and achievements.
When I go to Cyrodiil, I end up either being solo or zerging borderline stupid zergs, so I know the "pain" of being rolled over by bigger and/or better organised groups. And it is absolutely fine and fair. "C'est la vie!"
grouping should be encouraged. balling so your practically invincible balls of man meat rolling over everything and just eating them should NOT be encouraged.
"Balling" is Organized Group Play.
That's all there is to it, no matter what kind of pejorative term players come up with to refer to it.
If you have issues with Organized Groups, form your own Organized Group to beat them. That's why there are Armies IRL.
Don't expect a group of peasants with pitchforks to defeat a well-trained, well equipped Army, it's just not going to happen
did you just compare balling to real life armies..?
the military would make you spread out or risk explosives or artillery cluster killing you all.
also there have been times where "peasants" have overwhelmed the local armed forces.
See the taking of the Normandy's beaches during WWII for point 1. Also please remember this is a Medieval Fantasy world, looking at how the Roman armies worked would be more accurate (remember the "turtle" tactic, closed ranks stuff?
About point 2: the only time "peasants" have overwhelmed organised armies was when they vastly outnumbered said army.
still, you are touching on realty for your validation of why blobs should stay. the balance of the game comes first. and currently blobs dominate any other viable play style or tactic because they are just unstoppable balls of flesh that only get consumed by bigger blobs.
The balance of AvAvA is Organized Team Work versus Organised Team Work.
As I said, solo and small scale are aberrations on a AvAvA map.
There are Duels and Battlegrouds for solo and small scale. That's how the game works.
Trying to "balance" the AvAvA game around "small scale" and solo play is the error here, not the other way around.2 -
dsalter✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭This thread... I wouldn't believe it if i hadn't read it
Cyrodiil is AvAvA that means Alliance versus Alliance versus Alliance.
"Small scale" and "solo" are aberrations in that context.
That trend only started because
a) streamers stream through their own camera, so they favor solo, small group play,
b) there wasn't Dueling nor Battlegrounds for a long time, so any kind of PvP had to happen in the AvAvA map.
In AvAvA, grouping should be encouraged, not the other way around.
Cyrodiil is a War zone, and Wars are won by Armies, not by a bunch of random solo guys doing random solo, small scale stuff. (Some small groups can help taking minor objectives or guard choke points - guerrilla style - but in the end, it's always the Army that wins the War).
This is coming from someone who doesn't give a F about PvP (anymore), I only go there for events, skill points and achievements.
When I go to Cyrodiil, I end up either being solo or zerging borderline stupid zergs, so I know the "pain" of being rolled over by bigger and/or better organised groups. And it is absolutely fine and fair. "C'est la vie!"
grouping should be encouraged. balling so your practically invincible balls of man meat rolling over everything and just eating them should NOT be encouraged.
"Balling" is Organized Group Play.
That's all there is to it, no matter what kind of pejorative term players come up with to refer to it.
If you have issues with Organized Groups, form your own Organized Group to beat them. That's why there are Armies IRL.
Don't expect a group of peasants with pitchforks to defeat a well-trained, well equipped Army, it's just not going to happen
did you just compare balling to real life armies..?
the military would make you spread out or risk explosives or artillery cluster killing you all.
also there have been times where "peasants" have overwhelmed the local armed forces.
See the taking of the Normandy's beaches during WWII for point 1. Also please remember this is a Medieval Fantasy world, looking at how the Roman armies worked would be more accurate (remember the "turtle" tactic, closed ranks stuff?
About point 2: the only time "peasants" have overwhelmed organised armies was when they vastly outnumbered said army.
still, you are touching on realty for your validation of why blobs should stay. the balance of the game comes first. and currently blobs dominate any other viable play style or tactic because they are just unstoppable balls of flesh that only get consumed by bigger blobs.
The balance of AvAvA is Organized Team Work versus Organised Team Work.
As I said, solo and small scale are aberrations on a AvAvA map.
There are Duels and Battlegrouds for solo and small scale. That's how the game works.
Trying to "balance" the AvAvA game around "small scale" and solo play is the error here, not the other way around.
this isnt about "solo" or "small scale" this is legitimately about the fact if people setup a ball group you cannot be stopped unless YOU make a ball group thats larger. then you start heavily lagging out the local area with all the calculation which the engine still struggles with which is quite evident by the fact people are still getting loading forever bugs as well as desyncing.
i would rather an orginized group that can actually play a tactic that doesnt involve cheesing the system into basically becoming invinciballs because of the lack of counter play that cannot be achieved unless you run a group that cheeses the same way.PLEASE REPLY TO ME WITH @dsalter otherwise i'm likely to miss the reply if its not my own thread
EU - [Arch Mage Dave] Altmer Sorcerer
Fight back at the crates and boxes, together we can change things.1 -
ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭This thread... I wouldn't believe it if i hadn't read it
Cyrodiil is AvAvA that means Alliance versus Alliance versus Alliance.
"Small scale" and "solo" are aberrations in that context.
That trend only started because
a) streamers stream through their own camera, so they favor solo, small group play,
b) there wasn't Dueling nor Battlegrounds for a long time, so any kind of PvP had to happen in the AvAvA map.
In AvAvA, grouping should be encouraged, not the other way around.
Cyrodiil is a War zone, and Wars are won by Armies, not by a bunch of random solo guys doing random solo, small scale stuff. (Some small groups can help taking minor objectives or guard choke points - guerrilla style - but in the end, it's always the Army that wins the War).
This is coming from someone who doesn't give a F about PvP (anymore), I only go there for events, skill points and achievements.
When I go to Cyrodiil, I end up either being solo or zerging borderline stupid zergs, so I know the "pain" of being rolled over by bigger and/or better organised groups. And it is absolutely fine and fair. "C'est la vie!"
grouping should be encouraged. balling so your practically invincible balls of man meat rolling over everything and just eating them should NOT be encouraged.
"Balling" is Organized Group Play.
That's all there is to it, no matter what kind of pejorative term players come up with to refer to it.
If you have issues with Organized Groups, form your own Organized Group to beat them. That's why there are Armies IRL.
Don't expect a group of peasants with pitchforks to defeat a well-trained, well equipped Army, it's just not going to happen
did you just compare balling to real life armies..?
the military would make you spread out or risk explosives or artillery cluster killing you all.
also there have been times where "peasants" have overwhelmed the local armed forces.
See the taking of the Normandy's beaches during WWII for point 1. Also please remember this is a Medieval Fantasy world, looking at how the Roman armies worked would be more accurate (remember the "turtle" tactic, closed ranks stuff?
About point 2: the only time "peasants" have overwhelmed organised armies was when they vastly outnumbered said army.
still, you are touching on realty for your validation of why blobs should stay. the balance of the game comes first. and currently blobs dominate any other viable play style or tactic because they are just unstoppable balls of flesh that only get consumed by bigger blobs.
The balance of AvAvA is Organized Team Work versus Organised Team Work.
As I said, solo and small scale are aberrations on a AvAvA map.
There are Duels and Battlegrouds for solo and small scale. That's how the game works.
Trying to "balance" the AvAvA game around "small scale" and solo play is the error here, not the other way around.
It's not about that. There should be a place for different groupsizes in Cyrodiil, but this is about large scale playstyle. Please stop mixing them up.
You stated "balling" were the the same thing as organized group play. That's just blatantly false.DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU0 -
Arciris✭✭✭✭✭
✭This thread... I wouldn't believe it if i hadn't read it
Cyrodiil is AvAvA that means Alliance versus Alliance versus Alliance.
"Small scale" and "solo" are aberrations in that context.
That trend only started because
a) streamers stream through their own camera, so they favor solo, small group play,
b) there wasn't Dueling nor Battlegrounds for a long time, so any kind of PvP had to happen in the AvAvA map.
In AvAvA, grouping should be encouraged, not the other way around.
Cyrodiil is a War zone, and Wars are won by Armies, not by a bunch of random solo guys doing random solo, small scale stuff. (Some small groups can help taking minor objectives or guard choke points - guerrilla style - but in the end, it's always the Army that wins the War).
This is coming from someone who doesn't give a F about PvP (anymore), I only go there for events, skill points and achievements.
When I go to Cyrodiil, I end up either being solo or zerging borderline stupid zergs, so I know the "pain" of being rolled over by bigger and/or better organised groups. And it is absolutely fine and fair. "C'est la vie!"
grouping should be encouraged. balling so your practically invincible balls of man meat rolling over everything and just eating them should NOT be encouraged.
"Balling" is Organized Group Play.
That's all there is to it, no matter what kind of pejorative term players come up with to refer to it.
If you have issues with Organized Groups, form your own Organized Group to beat them. That's why there are Armies IRL.
Don't expect a group of peasants with pitchforks to defeat a well-trained, well equipped Army, it's just not going to happen
did you just compare balling to real life armies..?
the military would make you spread out or risk explosives or artillery cluster killing you all.
also there have been times where "peasants" have overwhelmed the local armed forces.
See the taking of the Normandy's beaches during WWII for point 1. Also please remember this is a Medieval Fantasy world, looking at how the Roman armies worked would be more accurate (remember the "turtle" tactic, closed ranks stuff?
About point 2: the only time "peasants" have overwhelmed organised armies was when they vastly outnumbered said army.
still, you are touching on realty for your validation of why blobs should stay. the balance of the game comes first. and currently blobs dominate any other viable play style or tactic because they are just unstoppable balls of flesh that only get consumed by bigger blobs.
The balance of AvAvA is Organized Team Work versus Organised Team Work.
As I said, solo and small scale are aberrations on a AvAvA map.
There are Duels and Battlegrouds for solo and small scale. That's how the game works.
Trying to "balance" the AvAvA game around "small scale" and solo play is the error here, not the other way around.
this isnt about "solo" or "small scale" this is legitimately about the fact if people setup a ball group you cannot be stopped unless YOU make a ball group thats larger. then you start heavily lagging out the local area with all the calculation which the engine still struggles with which is quite evident by the fact people are still getting loading forever bugs as well as desyncing.
i would rather an orginized group that can actually play a tactic that doesnt involve cheesing the system into basically becoming invinciballs because of the lack of counter play that cannot be achieved unless you run a group that cheeses the same way.
You're mixing 2 different things here.
1 is the game concept, AvAvA, designed for massive groups fighting each other.
2 is the game Performance and how this affects the concept in practice.
Instead of trying to change the game's concept, you could be asking for performance increase so that the game actually supports it's own concept, if you feel that is not the case atm (which I would totally agree with btw).
edit: typosEdited by Arciris on January 25, 2019 3:51PM0 -
Merlight✭✭✭✭✭Also please remember this is a Medieval Fantasy world, looking at how the Roman armies worked would be more accurate (remember the "turtle" tactic, closed ranks stuff?
Sacrificing mobility. There's no such trade-off in ESO.
EU ‣ Wabbajack nostalgic ‣ Blackwater Blade defender ‣ Kyne wanderer
The offspring of the root of all evil in ESO by DeanTheCat
Why ESO needs a monthly subscription
When an MMO is designed around a revenue model rather than around fun, it doesn’t have a long-term future. ― Richard A. Bartle
Their idea of transparent, at least when it comes to communication, bears a striking resemblance to a block of coal. ― lordrichter
... in the balance of power between the accountants and marketing types against the artists, developers and those who generally want to build and run a good game then that balance needs to always be in favour of the latter - because the former will drag the game into the ground for every last bean they can squeeze out of it. ― Santie Claws1 -
Arciris✭✭✭✭✭
✭This thread... I wouldn't believe it if i hadn't read it
Cyrodiil is AvAvA that means Alliance versus Alliance versus Alliance.
"Small scale" and "solo" are aberrations in that context.
That trend only started because
a) streamers stream through their own camera, so they favor solo, small group play,
b) there wasn't Dueling nor Battlegrounds for a long time, so any kind of PvP had to happen in the AvAvA map.
In AvAvA, grouping should be encouraged, not the other way around.
Cyrodiil is a War zone, and Wars are won by Armies, not by a bunch of random solo guys doing random solo, small scale stuff. (Some small groups can help taking minor objectives or guard choke points - guerrilla style - but in the end, it's always the Army that wins the War).
This is coming from someone who doesn't give a F about PvP (anymore), I only go there for events, skill points and achievements.
When I go to Cyrodiil, I end up either being solo or zerging borderline stupid zergs, so I know the "pain" of being rolled over by bigger and/or better organised groups. And it is absolutely fine and fair. "C'est la vie!"
grouping should be encouraged. balling so your practically invincible balls of man meat rolling over everything and just eating them should NOT be encouraged.
"Balling" is Organized Group Play.
That's all there is to it, no matter what kind of pejorative term players come up with to refer to it.
If you have issues with Organized Groups, form your own Organized Group to beat them. That's why there are Armies IRL.
Don't expect a group of peasants with pitchforks to defeat a well-trained, well equipped Army, it's just not going to happen
did you just compare balling to real life armies..?
the military would make you spread out or risk explosives or artillery cluster killing you all.
also there have been times where "peasants" have overwhelmed the local armed forces.
See the taking of the Normandy's beaches during WWII for point 1. Also please remember this is a Medieval Fantasy world, looking at how the Roman armies worked would be more accurate (remember the "turtle" tactic, closed ranks stuff?
About point 2: the only time "peasants" have overwhelmed organised armies was when they vastly outnumbered said army.
still, you are touching on realty for your validation of why blobs should stay. the balance of the game comes first. and currently blobs dominate any other viable play style or tactic because they are just unstoppable balls of flesh that only get consumed by bigger blobs.
The balance of AvAvA is Organized Team Work versus Organised Team Work.
As I said, solo and small scale are aberrations on a AvAvA map.
There are Duels and Battlegrouds for solo and small scale. That's how the game works.
Trying to "balance" the AvAvA game around "small scale" and solo play is the error here, not the other way around.
It's not about that. There should be a place for different groupsizes in Cyrodiil, but this is about large scale playstyle. Please stop mixing them up.
You stated "balling" were the the same thing as organized group play. That's just blatantly false.
The terminology for PvP related stuff is not always clear.
As such, why don't you start by defining what "balling" "blobs" and "zergs" mean? That would help understand whatever you think the issue here is.
From my point of view, and from what have been said by other posters in this thread, it seems that "ball" groups are Organized Groups that stick tight with each other and have complementary builds that mitigates a lot of what unorganized and/or smaller groups throw at them. I don't see how it can be more "organized" than that.0 -
Arciris✭✭✭✭✭
✭
I'll give you another example: Genghis Khan Hordes: Mounted Archers moving at high speed in very large groups - biggest Empire ever conquered.
Of course ESO can not exactly mimic RL military conditions, it is a fantasy game afterall. But to expect 4 guys to beat 20 organized ones is a bit too far off in the fantasy thing 0 -
ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭This thread... I wouldn't believe it if i hadn't read it
Cyrodiil is AvAvA that means Alliance versus Alliance versus Alliance.
"Small scale" and "solo" are aberrations in that context.
That trend only started because
a) streamers stream through their own camera, so they favor solo, small group play,
b) there wasn't Dueling nor Battlegrounds for a long time, so any kind of PvP had to happen in the AvAvA map.
In AvAvA, grouping should be encouraged, not the other way around.
Cyrodiil is a War zone, and Wars are won by Armies, not by a bunch of random solo guys doing random solo, small scale stuff. (Some small groups can help taking minor objectives or guard choke points - guerrilla style - but in the end, it's always the Army that wins the War).
This is coming from someone who doesn't give a F about PvP (anymore), I only go there for events, skill points and achievements.
When I go to Cyrodiil, I end up either being solo or zerging borderline stupid zergs, so I know the "pain" of being rolled over by bigger and/or better organised groups. And it is absolutely fine and fair. "C'est la vie!"
grouping should be encouraged. balling so your practically invincible balls of man meat rolling over everything and just eating them should NOT be encouraged.
"Balling" is Organized Group Play.
That's all there is to it, no matter what kind of pejorative term players come up with to refer to it.
If you have issues with Organized Groups, form your own Organized Group to beat them. That's why there are Armies IRL.
Don't expect a group of peasants with pitchforks to defeat a well-trained, well equipped Army, it's just not going to happen
did you just compare balling to real life armies..?
the military would make you spread out or risk explosives or artillery cluster killing you all.
also there have been times where "peasants" have overwhelmed the local armed forces.
See the taking of the Normandy's beaches during WWII for point 1. Also please remember this is a Medieval Fantasy world, looking at how the Roman armies worked would be more accurate (remember the "turtle" tactic, closed ranks stuff?
About point 2: the only time "peasants" have overwhelmed organised armies was when they vastly outnumbered said army.
still, you are touching on realty for your validation of why blobs should stay. the balance of the game comes first. and currently blobs dominate any other viable play style or tactic because they are just unstoppable balls of flesh that only get consumed by bigger blobs.
The balance of AvAvA is Organized Team Work versus Organised Team Work.
As I said, solo and small scale are aberrations on a AvAvA map.
There are Duels and Battlegrouds for solo and small scale. That's how the game works.
Trying to "balance" the AvAvA game around "small scale" and solo play is the error here, not the other way around.
It's not about that. There should be a place for different groupsizes in Cyrodiil, but this is about large scale playstyle. Please stop mixing them up.
You stated "balling" were the the same thing as organized group play. That's just blatantly false.
The terminology for PvP related stuff is not always clear.
As such, why don't you start by defining what "balling" "blobs" and "zergs" mean? That would help understand whatever you think the issue here is.
From my point of view, and from what have been said by other posters in this thread, it seems that "ball" groups are Organized Groups that stick tight with each other and have complementary builds that mitigates a lot of what unorganized and/or smaller groups throw at them. I don't see how it can be more "organized" than that.
I usually differentiate between "zerg" (large amount of players / using numerical superiority as primary way to achieve victory) and "zergball" (large organized group staying in close proximity to each other most of the time).
You wrote:This thread... I wouldn't believe it if i hadn't read it
Cyrodiil is AvAvA that means Alliance versus Alliance versus Alliance.
"Small scale" and "solo" are aberrations in that context.
That trend only started because
a) streamers stream through their own camera, so they favor solo, small group play,
b) there wasn't Dueling nor Battlegrounds for a long time, so any kind of PvP had to happen in the AvAvA map.
In AvAvA, grouping should be encouraged, not the other way around.
Cyrodiil is a War zone, and Wars are won by Armies, not by a bunch of random solo guys doing random solo, small scale stuff. (Some small groups can help taking minor objectives or guard choke points - guerrilla style - but in the end, it's always the Army that wins the War).
This is coming from someone who doesn't give a F about PvP (anymore), I only go there for events, skill points and achievements.
When I go to Cyrodiil, I end up either being solo or zerging borderline stupid zergs, so I know the "pain" of being rolled over by bigger and/or better organised groups. And it is absolutely fine and fair. "C'est la vie!"
grouping should be encouraged. balling so your practically invincible balls of man meat rolling over everything and just eating them should NOT be encouraged.
"Balling" is Organized Group Play.
That's all there is to it, no matter what kind of pejorative term players come up with to refer to it.
If you have issues with Organized Groups, form your own Organized Group to beat them. That's why there are Armies IRL.
Don't expect a group of peasants with pitchforks to defeat a well-trained, well equipped Army, it's just not going to happen
I read it as "balling", which I assume you mean by what I called "zergballing", where synonymous with "Organized Group Play". I recognize that may not have been what you mean by that, but be that as it may, the point stands that they're not one and the same.DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU0 -
Arciris✭✭✭✭✭
✭I read it as "balling", which I assume you mean by what I called "zergballing", where synonymous with "Organized Group Play". I recognize that may not have been what you mean by that, but be that as it may, the point stands that they're not one and the same.
I'm confused. You just defined "zergballing" with, and I quote:
"I usually differentiate between "zerg" (large amount of players / using numerical superiority as primary way to achieve victory) and "zergball" (large organized group staying in close proximity to each other most of the time)."
and then proceed telling me that "zergballing" isn't synonymous with Organized Group Play?
2 -
ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I read it as "balling", which I assume you mean by what I called "zergballing", where synonymous with "Organized Group Play". I recognize that may not have been what you mean by that, but be that as it may, the point stands that they're not one and the same.
I'm confused. You just defined "zergballing" with, and I quote:
"I usually differentiate between "zerg" (large amount of players / using numerical superiority as primary way to achieve victory) and "zergball" (large organized group staying in close proximity to each other most of the time)."
and then proceed telling me that "zergballing" isn't synonymous with Organized Group Play?
A zergball is always organized to some degree, organization doesn't require stacking most players in a certain radius.DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU0 -
dsalter✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I read it as "balling", which I assume you mean by what I called "zergballing", where synonymous with "Organized Group Play". I recognize that may not have been what you mean by that, but be that as it may, the point stands that they're not one and the same.
I'm confused. You just defined "zergballing" with, and I quote:
"I usually differentiate between "zerg" (large amount of players / using numerical superiority as primary way to achieve victory) and "zergball" (large organized group staying in close proximity to each other most of the time)."
and then proceed telling me that "zergballing" isn't synonymous with Organized Group Play?
A zergball is always organized to some degree, organization doesn't require stacking most players in a certain radius.
i'll elaborate on this as i'v been part of the blob once or twice *shudder* i couldnt help it, i needed that AP boost that week.
anyways a ball group requires LESS organization than a true raid group because you have 3 main rules to follow.
1: follow the crown, if they go, you go.
2: you are assigned a job, either healing, purging, spamming AoE's, spamming chains/pulls, spamming long range CC or spamming rapids. you dont do your job, you get booted.
3: if someone dies, you call up and res the dead guy asap, even if it means stopping and spam purge/heals till they are alive, a missing body is a weaker blob.
meanwhile a true raid group will have plans of where to hit, when, how fast, roughly how far to spread, select and target specific people etc. a true raid group takes tons more effort to coordinate.
PLEASE REPLY TO ME WITH @dsalter otherwise i'm likely to miss the reply if its not my own thread
EU - [Arch Mage Dave] Altmer Sorcerer
Fight back at the crates and boxes, together we can change things.0 -
TequilaFire✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I read it as "balling", which I assume you mean by what I called "zergballing", where synonymous with "Organized Group Play". I recognize that may not have been what you mean by that, but be that as it may, the point stands that they're not one and the same.
I'm confused. You just defined "zergballing" with, and I quote:
"I usually differentiate between "zerg" (large amount of players / using numerical superiority as primary way to achieve victory) and "zergball" (large organized group staying in close proximity to each other most of the time)."
and then proceed telling me that "zergballing" isn't synonymous with Organized Group Play?
A zergball is always organized to some degree, organization doesn't require stacking most players in a certain radius.
i'll elaborate on this as i'v been part of the blob once or twice *shudder* i couldnt help it, i needed that AP boost that week.
anyways a ball group requires LESS organization than a true raid group because you have 3 main rules to follow.
1: follow the crown, if they go, you go.
2: you are assigned a job, either healing, purging, spamming AoE's, spamming chains/pulls, spamming long range CC or spamming rapids. you dont do your job, you get booted.
3: if someone dies, you call up and res the dead guy asap, even if it means stopping and spam purge/heals till they are alive, a missing body is a weaker blob.
meanwhile a true raid group will have plans of where to hit, when, how fast, roughly how far to spread, select and target specific people etc. a true raid group takes tons more effort to coordinate.
You are kind of splitting hairs because a good crown and group will do all of the above and make sure there are no weak builds in the group that are built in proxy bombs.1 -
ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I read it as "balling", which I assume you mean by what I called "zergballing", where synonymous with "Organized Group Play". I recognize that may not have been what you mean by that, but be that as it may, the point stands that they're not one and the same.
I'm confused. You just defined "zergballing" with, and I quote:
"I usually differentiate between "zerg" (large amount of players / using numerical superiority as primary way to achieve victory) and "zergball" (large organized group staying in close proximity to each other most of the time)."
and then proceed telling me that "zergballing" isn't synonymous with Organized Group Play?
A zergball is always organized to some degree, organization doesn't require stacking most players in a certain radius.
i'll elaborate on this as i'v been part of the blob once or twice *shudder* i couldnt help it, i needed that AP boost that week.
anyways a ball group requires LESS organization than a true raid group because you have 3 main rules to follow.
1: follow the crown, if they go, you go.
2: you are assigned a job, either healing, purging, spamming AoE's, spamming chains/pulls, spamming long range CC or spamming rapids. you dont do your job, you get booted.
3: if someone dies, you call up and res the dead guy asap, even if it means stopping and spam purge/heals till they are alive, a missing body is a weaker blob.
meanwhile a true raid group will have plans of where to hit, when, how fast, roughly how far to spread, select and target specific people etc. a true raid group takes tons more effort to coordinate.
I'm not entirely sure what your distinction there is now myself.
A group whose main killing mechanic is to stack up and use AoE can still do all that you listed.DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU0 -
Jakx✭✭✭✭✭Purging is the biggest problem for combating ball groups. A possible answer is siege weaponry shouldn't be purge-able. Make them heal the damage and allow siege to be appropriately deadly.Joined September 20130
-
Recremen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The other organized gruops just happen to play in a relatively similar fashion because they all happened to like it so much, or maybe they just found it acceptable enough to be able to play large scale pvp competitively? Not only does that in no way contradict my point, there are also plenty groups who rather spend their time trying to set up farms in some resource or keep, and if it doesn't work, join in fights between the disorganized faction zergs.
Organized groups play in organized groups because they like that kind of combat. As is plainly apparent on live, there is plenty of room for combat at a smaller scale all across the map. It's a direct contradiction to your idea that smallscale is impossible because the large organized groups are chasing them down all over the map. Unless that isn't your argument, in which case, what exactly is the issue here? None of your ideas in this section are leading to any discernible conclusion. Organized groups are chasing down onesie-twosies? Or are they spending their time setting up a farm in a resource or keep (which is specifically NOT hunting down onesie-twosies)? Or are they going off to fight faction zergs? And other than the first one, how is any of that bad in any way or counterproductive to smaller fights? If you're in a keep/resource "farming" then you're not ruining smallscale, your encouraging large groups to come get you. Otherwise you're doing a really bad job "farming".
Of course, maybe things are different over there in EU, but on the PC NA server we have a very healthy dynamic with people able to participate in a wide variety of playstyles in Cyrodiil. Maybe they just know how to avoid the attention of the organized groups better, or maybe the organized groups just have a healthier relationship with the smallscalers. idkYou need to be able to force a reaction to create engaging gameplay. Otherwise there is no feedback on your influence on what is happening in the game. But more to the point:
If it was not possible to hit the majority or at least a large part of a large group of players with a single ability - which is what deterrants to stack up like this thread's suggestion are aiming to achieve - abilities which are single target for the most part would become relatively more useful against them compared to pure AoE. Now, if that were the norm, organized groups would create a new meta around it, but it would inevitably end up less restrictive in terms of which kinds of builds can make a serious impact in a fight, which was the point of it all.
Now, like I said in my first post, the current meta is result of several underlying systems favouring it. That would make a "zergbuster" skill with little to no other function somewhat of a band aid. Doesn't mean it's necessarily bad for the game to introduce it, but there are surely better alternatives.
edit: typo
Exactly what kind of a reaction are you trying to create, though? I went over everything and showed how it all still works just fine against organized groups. Specifically, as best you can, try to describe the effect you want to have on a group, because I am really not seeing it. You want health bars to dip? Do damage. You want to apply debuffs? Go to town. You want to CC? The world is your oyster. Try skills with a pull for the greatest effect! But since you can already do all of those things you are either asking for something more (and reaching into the conceited territory I was talking about before) or you are incredibly confused.Men'Do PC NA AD Khajiit
Grand High Illustrious Mid-Tier PvP/PvE Bussmunster1 -
Recremen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I read it as "balling", which I assume you mean by what I called "zergballing", where synonymous with "Organized Group Play". I recognize that may not have been what you mean by that, but be that as it may, the point stands that they're not one and the same.
I'm confused. You just defined "zergballing" with, and I quote:
"I usually differentiate between "zerg" (large amount of players / using numerical superiority as primary way to achieve victory) and "zergball" (large organized group staying in close proximity to each other most of the time)."
and then proceed telling me that "zergballing" isn't synonymous with Organized Group Play?
A zergball is always organized to some degree, organization doesn't require stacking most players in a certain radius.
i'll elaborate on this as i'v been part of the blob once or twice *shudder* i couldnt help it, i needed that AP boost that week.
anyways a ball group requires LESS organization than a true raid group because you have 3 main rules to follow.
1: follow the crown, if they go, you go.
2: you are assigned a job, either healing, purging, spamming AoE's, spamming chains/pulls, spamming long range CC or spamming rapids. you dont do your job, you get booted.
3: if someone dies, you call up and res the dead guy asap, even if it means stopping and spam purge/heals till they are alive, a missing body is a weaker blob.
meanwhile a true raid group will have plans of where to hit, when, how fast, roughly how far to spread, select and target specific people etc. a true raid group takes tons more effort to coordinate.
I'm not entirely sure what your distinction there is now myself.
A group whose main killing mechanic is to stack up and use AoE can still do all that you listed.
Stacking up and using AoEs is part of organized group play. What are we supposed to do, single-target each enemy down one at a time? There's no way to consistently do that. The opposing organized group will just heal through it. Good coordinated AoE use is probably the best hallmark of a large organized group. I mean, all of our heals, all of our damage, and all of our buffs only work within a certain range of the caster. It would be pretty stupid and disorganized NOT to move as a unit.
Anyway, by the person's metric above, it sounds like they're saying that a "zergball" is mired in the trap of overspecialization. Organized groups do have specialized roles, but even the rapids and purge "spammers" have additional jobs depending on the situation. We also have the advanced tactical mindset they refer to. If you're running into a "zergball" with all of the traits they listed for a "true raid group", then you've simply misidentified them, and they are in fact an organized group.Men'Do PC NA AD Khajiit
Grand High Illustrious Mid-Tier PvP/PvE Bussmunster1 -
ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭.The other organized gruops just happen to play in a relatively similar fashion because they all happened to like it so much, or maybe they just found it acceptable enough to be able to play large scale pvp competitively? Not only does that in no way contradict my point, there are also plenty groups who rather spend their time trying to set up farms in some resource or keep, and if it doesn't work, join in fights between the disorganized faction zergs.
Organized groups play in organized groups because they like that kind of combat. As is plainly apparent on live, there is plenty of room for combat at a smaller scale all across the map. It's a direct contradiction to your idea that smallscale is impossible because the large organized groups are chasing them down all over the map. Unless that isn't your argument, in which case, what exactly is the issue here? None of your ideas in this section are leading to any discernible conclusion. Organized groups are chasing down onesie-twosies? Or are they spending their time setting up a farm in a resource or keep (which is specifically NOT hunting down onesie-twosies)? Or are they going off to fight faction zergs? And other than the first one, how is any of that bad in any way or counterproductive to smaller fights? If you're in a keep/resource "farming" then you're not ruining smallscale, your encouraging large groups to come get you. Otherwise you're doing a really bad job "farming".
Of course, maybe things are different over there in EU, but on the PC NA server we have a very healthy dynamic with people able to participate in a wide variety of playstyles in Cyrodiil. Maybe they just know how to avoid the attention of the organized groups better, or maybe the organized groups just have a healthier relationship with the smallscalers. idkYou need to be able to force a reaction to create engaging gameplay. Otherwise there is no feedback on your influence on what is happening in the game. But more to the point:
If it was not possible to hit the majority or at least a large part of a large group of players with a single ability - which is what deterrants to stack up like this thread's suggestion are aiming to achieve - abilities which are single target for the most part would become relatively more useful against them compared to pure AoE. Now, if that were the norm, organized groups would create a new meta around it, but it would inevitably end up less restrictive in terms of which kinds of builds can make a serious impact in a fight, which was the point of it all.
Now, like I said in my first post, the current meta is result of several underlying systems favouring it. That would make a "zergbuster" skill with little to no other function somewhat of a band aid. Doesn't mean it's necessarily bad for the game to introduce it, but there are surely better alternatives.
edit: typo
Exactly what kind of a reaction are you trying to create, though? I went over everything and showed how it all still works just fine against organized groups. Specifically, as best you can, try to describe the effect you want to have on a group, because I am really not seeing it. You want health bars to dip? Do damage. You want to apply debuffs? Go to town. You want to CC? The world is your oyster. Try skills with a pull for the greatest effect! But since you can already do all of those things you are either asking for something more (and reaching into the conceited territory I was talking about before) or you are incredibly confused.
When I use my skills on one or several targets which are not part of an organized group or not within hugging range of several other members, they are forced to react to them or they die. Against a zergball though, several systems prevent me from dealing any significant damage without the need for my targets to react. Sure, heals continue and purges if they were being spammed at the time, but nothing changes with my individual contribution. That needs an actual zerg of players hammering them, siege weapons, or builds created for the sole purpose of combating these groups which then fail miserably in small scale.
Were stacking discouraged to such a degree that it is no longer beneficial against players just using their skills correctly, it would require targets to react individually while still being able to be supported by some of their allies. Do they fail that, they have a high chance of dieing, just like any other player in PvP.I read it as "balling", which I assume you mean by what I called "zergballing", where synonymous with "Organized Group Play". I recognize that may not have been what you mean by that, but be that as it may, the point stands that they're not one and the same.
I'm confused. You just defined "zergballing" with, and I quote:
"I usually differentiate between "zerg" (large amount of players / using numerical superiority as primary way to achieve victory) and "zergball" (large organized group staying in close proximity to each other most of the time)."
and then proceed telling me that "zergballing" isn't synonymous with Organized Group Play?
A zergball is always organized to some degree, organization doesn't require stacking most players in a certain radius.
i'll elaborate on this as i'v been part of the blob once or twice *shudder* i couldnt help it, i needed that AP boost that week.
anyways a ball group requires LESS organization than a true raid group because you have 3 main rules to follow.
1: follow the crown, if they go, you go.
2: you are assigned a job, either healing, purging, spamming AoE's, spamming chains/pulls, spamming long range CC or spamming rapids. you dont do your job, you get booted.
3: if someone dies, you call up and res the dead guy asap, even if it means stopping and spam purge/heals till they are alive, a missing body is a weaker blob.
meanwhile a true raid group will have plans of where to hit, when, how fast, roughly how far to spread, select and target specific people etc. a true raid group takes tons more effort to coordinate.
I'm not entirely sure what your distinction there is now myself.
A group whose main killing mechanic is to stack up and use AoE can still do all that you listed.
Stacking up and using AoEs is part of organized group play. What are we supposed to do, single-target each enemy down one at a time? There's no way to consistently do that. The opposing organized group will just heal through it. Good coordinated AoE use is probably the best hallmark of a large organized group. I mean, all of our heals, all of our damage, and all of our buffs only work within a certain range of the caster. It would be pretty stupid and disorganized NOT to move as a unit.
Anyway, by the person's metric above, it sounds like they're saying that a "zergball" is mired in the trap of overspecialization. Organized groups do have specialized roles, but even the rapids and purge "spammers" have additional jobs depending on the situation. We also have the advanced tactical mindset they refer to. If you're running into a "zergball" with all of the traits they listed for a "true raid group", then you've simply misidentified them, and they are in fact an organized group.
Like I said, the playstyle is supported by several systems. Skill design, smart healing and targetting to name a few. I don't blame anyone for playing this way when they want to play in a large group, even if I personally rather just limit myself to small scale and solo play.
I will say though, and not at you specifically, that there really is no reason to be afraid organized large groups would somehow be unable to deal with any changes. Good players will always find a way to adapt if they have the same tools everyone else does.DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU0 -
Trinity_Is_My_Name✭✭✭✭✭
✭I don't see this as a problem. I see it as a quick way to have fun taking Resources and Keeps. Especially when the Player is not a hard core PVP type like me. Heck, I see PVP Streams of nothing but giant Zerg armies going from one Keep to another all having fun as far as I can tell. And these Streamers are some of the top ESO PVP Streamers. It's part of the play style in the game.
Just the other day I was the only player at a Keep. At the same time I happened to be watching Fengrush. LOL. Well, next thing I know he and his Orc Army are beating down the front door with just me in the Keep. I sacrificed myself to the Orc Army for the Glory of the Empire! LOL.0 -
validifyedneb18_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭The true test of ZOS's ability to fix this will be when we see how the new Daedric artifacts perform. They could either make it way worse with effectively a second emperor in play, or be the fabled fix we have been waiting 4 years for.EU: Magden, Magknight, Stamsorc(*2), Magsorc
NA: Magplar, Magden, PotatoBlade0 -
Arciris✭✭✭✭✭
✭validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »The true test of ZOS's ability to fix this will be when we see how the new Daedric artifacts perform. They could either make it way worse with effectively a second emperor in play, or be the fabled fix we have been waiting 4 years for.
Fix to... what? I have to ask, since you don't say.But if you are expecting a "fix" to the "zerg". I'm afraid you are going to have to wait a lot more time. People are not going to stop forming large groups in a AvAvA map that is designed and was advertised for exactly that.0