@paulsimonps This seems like the kind of question you might like?

jypcy wrote: »

Thanks to recommendations on the forum, magwarden rotation I use includes shalks and unstable: shalks > skill > skill > shalks > bs > unstable > skill > bs > shalks > ha > shalks > bs > unstable > skill > bs > restart

It’s not maximum magden dps, but it’s super simple and still works well so I enjoy it. Plus, I feel like you’re getting maximum uptime with both shalks and unstable using it. Iirc the timers on some of the other skills don’t perfectly line up so perhaps there’s room for optimization, but it’s an effective way to build around the unique timer of shalks.

Yeah thats the kind of rotation that got me thinking about it too. In general though I think a lot of skills are like Wall, where there is no reason to run one morph. Some morphs are utility or self healing that have no place in min/max. Others like Wall where both morphs are pure DPS options, I feel like there should at least be certain situations were each morph is the better one.

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

jypcy wrote: »

Thanks to recommendations on the forum, magwarden rotation I use includes shalks and unstable: shalks > skill > skill > shalks > bs > unstable > skill > bs > shalks > ha > shalks > bs > unstable > skill > bs > restart

It’s not maximum magden dps, but it’s super simple and still works well so I enjoy it. Plus, I feel like you’re getting maximum uptime with both shalks and unstable using it. Iirc the timers on some of the other skills don’t perfectly line up so perhaps there’s room for optimization, but it’s an effective way to build around the unique timer of shalks.

Yeah thats the kind of rotation that got me thinking about it too. In general though I think a lot of skills are like Wall, where there is no reason to run one morph. Some morphs are utility or self healing that have no place in min/max. Others like Wall where both morphs are pure DPS options, I feel like there should at least be certain situations were each morph is the better one.

They're not just pure DPS options. Unstable is good for PVE DPS, Blockade is good for AOE specifically but also has AOE utility in PVP.

If you run unstable in PVP... ehhhhh - you should run blockade for the better coverage

MalagenR wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

jypcy wrote: »

Thanks to recommendations on the forum, magwarden rotation I use includes shalks and unstable: shalks > skill > skill > shalks > bs > unstable > skill > bs > shalks > ha > shalks > bs > unstable > skill > bs > restart

It’s not maximum magden dps, but it’s super simple and still works well so I enjoy it. Plus, I feel like you’re getting maximum uptime with both shalks and unstable using it. Iirc the timers on some of the other skills don’t perfectly line up so perhaps there’s room for optimization, but it’s an effective way to build around the unique timer of shalks.

Yeah thats the kind of rotation that got me thinking about it too. In general though I think a lot of skills are like Wall, where there is no reason to run one morph. Some morphs are utility or self healing that have no place in min/max. Others like Wall where both morphs are pure DPS options, I feel like there should at least be certain situations were each morph is the better one.

They're not just pure DPS options. Unstable is good for PVE DPS, Blockade is good for AOE specifically but also has AOE utility in PVP.

If you run unstable in PVP... ehhhhh - you should run blockade for the better coverage

Wall in either morph is only useful in PvP in a root frost build. And I have never heard of anyone using Unstable in PvP in that situation either. As it is right now, the fine burst of Unstable is less damage than the extra 2 ticks. If someone is still in Wall after 6 seconds, why would they then figure out to get out of it? :thinking:

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

jypcy wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

jypcy wrote: »

Thanks to recommendations on the forum, magwarden rotation I use includes shalks and unstable: shalks > skill > skill > shalks > bs > unstable > skill > bs > shalks > ha > shalks > bs > unstable > skill > bs > restart

It’s not maximum magden dps, but it’s super simple and still works well so I enjoy it. Plus, I feel like you’re getting maximum uptime with both shalks and unstable using it. Iirc the timers on some of the other skills don’t perfectly line up so perhaps there’s room for optimization, but it’s an effective way to build around the unique timer of shalks.

Yeah thats the kind of rotation that got me thinking about it too. In general though I think a lot of skills are like Wall, where there is no reason to run one morph. Some morphs are utility or self healing that have no place in min/max. Others like Wall where both morphs are pure DPS options, I feel like there should at least be certain situations were each morph is the better one.

Sure, and maybe we disagree, but I think this is a perfect example of where a niche morph is the better one. Using your numbers from above:
Unstable over 24 seconds: 4 GCDs x 7783 dmg/GCD = 31,132 dmg total
Blockade over 24 seconds: 3 GCDs x 8192 dmg/GCD = 24,576 dmg total

Unstable is actually higher dps than blockade on its own over time, but as you noted, it’s less dmg per magicka spent, and costs additional GCDs. However, that extra ~6550 dmg might be the best use of those GCDs depending on class and build. I imagine it is rare, but I’d be surprised if there wasn’t a single situation where unstable is the better option. Out of curiosity, what are some other tool tips for common magicka skills from the same build that you used for the wall tooltips?

Edit: and should clarify that certainly I wouldn’t mind a buff to unstable because it’s probably more niche than it needs to be in its current state.

Just a theory crafting build, but here is the basic idea.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=38562

Thanks! So yeah, difference I got between 24 seconds of blockade and unstable for that build is 18,280 dmg, and assuming your rotation has good uptimes on fetcher and revenge anyway (even if they’re not quite 100%), I believe that the extra unstable cast is the best use of the GCD you otherwise could’ve saved by running blockade.

I’ve been running Unstable on a few characters. It’s really not bad, and arguably the better morph for some builds. The burst at the end does about the same damage as the 2 ticks missed by the shorter duration, so you get almost the same damage per cast and higher damage per second. This burst is comparatively better if you are invested a lot in Master at Arms (non-pet sorc, Nightblade, Magden) but worse if you are built into Thaumaturge (pet sorc, Templar, DK).

Keep in mind that Unstable is also better burst. If something dies within 5s then either morph is the same. If it dies just after 6-7s Unstable has done more damage. Blockade only catches up in damage after 8s. This can be important in places like vAS and vCR, where switching targets means you often get no benefit from longer duration DoTs.

The only real advantage of Blockade is the increased width. Unstable requires your enemies to be lined up better, and you may need to sidestep before casting to aim it where needed.

Aside from that, I would say go with whichever works out best for a clean rotation. I’ve found that the following morphs work out best:

Non-Pet Sorc: 6s Unstable with 6s Lightning Flood and 12s Haunting Curse

Pet Sorc: 8s Blockade with 10s Liquid Lightning and 8s Volatile Familiar.

Warden: 6s Unstable with 12s Winters Revenge and 3s Deep Fissure

Templar: 8s Blockade with 8s Blazing Spear and 7s Reflective Light (although I could see Unstable working with 6s Purfying Light and 11s Vamp Bane)

Nightblade: 8s Blockade with 8s Cripple. Although 6s Unstable can also work well with the almost 12s Twisting Path, depends on bar setup and personal preference, since Nightblade rotations are dynamic.

DK: 8s Blockade, with a 15s FoO every other cast. Other DK skill timings are all over the place so I tend to end up with a dynamic rotation, which is easier to manage with a longer wall duration.

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I’ve been running Unstable on a few characters. It’s really not bad, and arguably the better morph for some builds. The burst at the end does about the same damage as the 2 ticks missed by the shorter duration, so you get almost the same damage per cast and higher damage per second. This burst is comparatively better if you are invested a lot in Master at Arms (non-pet sorc, Nightblade, Magden) but worse if you are built into Thaumaturge (pet sorc, Templar, DK).

Keep in mind that Unstable is also better burst. If something dies within 5s then either morph is the same. If it dies just after 6-7s Unstable has done more damage. Blockade only catches up in damage after 8s. This can be important in places like vAS and vCR, where switching targets means you often get no benefit from longer duration DoTs.

The only real advantage of Blockade is the increased width. Unstable requires your enemies to be lined up better, and you may need to sidestep before casting to aim it where needed.

Aside from that, I would say go with whichever works out best for a clean rotation. I’ve found that the following morphs work out best:

Non-Pet Sorc: 6s Unstable with 6s Lightning Flood and 12s Haunting Curse

Pet Sorc: 8s Blockade with 10s Liquid Lightning and 8s Volatile Familiar.

Warden: 6s Unstable with 12s Winters Revenge and 3s Deep Fissure

Templar: 8s Blockade with 8s Blazing Spear and 7s Reflective Light (although I could see Unstable working with 6s Purfying Light and 11s Vamp Bane)

Nightblade: 8s Blockade with 8s Cripple. Although 6s Unstable can also work well with the almost 12s Twisting Path, depends on bar setup and personal preference, since Nightblade rotations are dynamic.

DK: 8s Blockade, with a 15s FoO every other cast. Other DK skill timings are all over the place so I tend to end up with a dynamic rotation, which is easier to manage with a longer wall duration.

Very interesting. Being console, I don't really like the meta floating rotation MagDen build. I have played with Unstable a little, but when I have brought up the idea of an Unstable rotation in conversation I have recieved a lot of negative feed back. So I didn't put a lot of effort into it.
I may just have to revisit the build, and see how much more I can get out of it.

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

The other way to look at this comparison, is to take a 24s section of a fight. Assuming you keep full uptime on Wall the DoT damage will be the same for either morph (24 ticks). Unstable would be cast 4 times, and give 4 final burst ticks. Blockade would be cast 3 times and allow the use of one more spammable skill.

So for a single target fight you’re just weighing 4 Unstable Wall bursts against 1 spammable. Unstable Wall’s final tick is about 40% the damage of a spammable, so 4 of them are 1.6X times the damage of one spammable. However, spammables often have additional effects like status effects, self heals or interrupts, so the DPS difference is very slight.

I would like if Unstable and Blockade were the same size. The duration difference balances the final burst pretty well without needing an area difference.

Well in terms of MagDen,
Unstable is 18x8
Fissure is 20x7
Blolckade is 18x 12
So i almost don't even mind just because I want Fissure and Wall hitting the same area.

Agreed.