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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8098811/#Comment_8098811
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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8098811/#Comment_8098811
Discussion on merging the tank and healer roles
Rungar
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anyone have any thoughts on merging the tank and healer roles as i think it could be a positive step for this game. I have both tanks and healers and i see my healer as a sort of weak dps with heals in most cases and traditionally ive always thought my healer should be wearing heavy armor.
advantages
1) more tanks would be generally available
2) more dps per group would shorten queue times considerably
3) the game could focus on self sufficiency which it kind of has already anyway.
4) doesnt prevent dedicated healers for content such as trials. It also makes offtanks more useful.
5) could avoid a whole series of nerfs to make healers viable. Sorc shields and nightblade healing nerfs come to mind.
challenges
1) some dont like change
2) two roles might be too much for one player
3) this would affect templar healers more than anything else though i think many templars would welcome the change. Heal tank used to be a templar thing.
what do we have now:
1) most classes can already sustain themselves whether theres a dedicated healer or not.
2) all tanks can sustain themselves without healer support in most cases other than resources support.
3) the nerf cannon is poised to gut classes ability to sustain themselves to force healer suppoort. Perhaps its not worth it.
classes
1) the warden class is pretty much built for this combined role as tank/healer. A few tweaks might be required so they dont have to rely on their ultimate.
2) the dragonknight could easily be improved through the group shield and cinder storm skills. Some dk skills could be expanded to affect more groupmates .
3) the templar already has the required healing tools but would need slightly enhanced tanking tools which should be done anyway.
other considerations
1) making the resto staff what the ice staff is would help here and change ice staff back to a destruction staff and add in a 1hander resto
2) make all heals scale off of health. Unlike mag and stam when you focus on health you cant do any dmg so they work well together.
thoughts?
Edited by Rungar on November 20, 2018 11:47AM advantages
1) more tanks would be generally available
2) more dps per group would shorten queue times considerably
3) the game could focus on self sufficiency which it kind of has already anyway.
4) doesnt prevent dedicated healers for content such as trials. It also makes offtanks more useful.
5) could avoid a whole series of nerfs to make healers viable. Sorc shields and nightblade healing nerfs come to mind.
challenges
1) some dont like change
2) two roles might be too much for one player
3) this would affect templar healers more than anything else though i think many templars would welcome the change. Heal tank used to be a templar thing.
what do we have now:
1) most classes can already sustain themselves whether theres a dedicated healer or not.
2) all tanks can sustain themselves without healer support in most cases other than resources support.
3) the nerf cannon is poised to gut classes ability to sustain themselves to force healer suppoort. Perhaps its not worth it.
classes
1) the warden class is pretty much built for this combined role as tank/healer. A few tweaks might be required so they dont have to rely on their ultimate.
2) the dragonknight could easily be improved through the group shield and cinder storm skills. Some dk skills could be expanded to affect more groupmates .
3) the templar already has the required healing tools but would need slightly enhanced tanking tools which should be done anyway.
other considerations
1) making the resto staff what the ice staff is would help here and change ice staff back to a destruction staff and add in a 1hander resto
2) make all heals scale off of health. Unlike mag and stam when you focus on health you cant do any dmg so they work well together.
thoughts?
5
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Sparr0w✭✭✭✭✭
✭You ever tried healing? Imo it's the hardest role, followed by tanking, dd is the easiest. How are you supposed to heal 10-11 people, buff them with prayer, throw out orbs to everyone every 20 seconds, heavy attack the boss every 10 seconds, aim your olorime proc, on top of keeping taunt, controlling all the adds, positioning properly, following mechanics & keeping yourself alive.
There's not enough armour space or skill space to make this viable, let alone the fact you would by far have the hardest role there, it would be a nightmare.@Sparr0w so I get the notification
Xbox (EU) - l Sparrow x | CP 810+DD: All Mag + StamPC (EU) - Sparrxw | CP 810+
Heal: Templar | Sorc | NB | Warden | Necro
Tank: NB | DK | Warden
Completions: All HM's + TTT + IR + GHDD: All Mag + Stam
Heal: Templar | Sorc
Tank: DK | NB
Completions: All HM's + TTT + IR + GH + GS17 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It is great to think of ideas but it is even more important to justify claims made in the idea.
1. When stating there would be more tanks requires an explanation of how tanks will cease avoiding GF to begin with . Especially since most tanks avoid GF because of the far to common poor dps situation.
2. There are players in the game that can clear even vet DLC HM dungeons without a dedicated healer, but many players are not there yet. If the issue that keeps tanks out of GF is low DPS these same DPS probably need a dedicated healer.
3. It also goes against what Zos has recently stated, that they want healers to feel more needed, the reason behind the recent shield nerf. Eliminating them from the GF is probably not going to make them feel more needed.
While I read the entire OP, most of the points just would not work.
Fix the reason tanks do not queue if you want more tanks using the GF. They are there, they just avoid the GF like it is the plague.
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VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭A basic tank holds boss aggro and doesn't die.
A good tank holds boss aggro, crowd controls mobs, taunts priority and heavy hitting adds, debuffs the boss, buffs the group, holds the boss more or less still in the AOEs, blocks, bashes, interrupts, follows mechanics, and doesn't die.
You could combine a basic tank with a Healer. Thats what my healer is forced to do every time I get a fake tank.
But a good tank is doing way too much to combine with a healer role.10 -
Noldornir✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »A basic tank holds boss aggro and doesn't die.
A good tank holds boss aggro, crowd controls mobs, taunts priority and heavy hitting adds, debuffs the boss, buffs the group, holds the boss more or less still in the AOEs, blocks, bashes, interrupts, follows mechanics, and doesn't die.
You could combine a basic tank with a Healer. Thats what my healer is forced to do every time I get a fake tank.
But a good tank is doing way too much to combine with a healer role.
OP adressed to some real problems but this is a truth.
Also don't forget that:
Basic healer= heals group and doesn't die
Good Healer= heals group, gives resources back, buff the group, debuff enemies, handle mechs and doesn't die
Also most builds in these roles have, atm, 1-2 flex spot you would need like 8-10 skills per bar in order to be able to cover all this job.
Oh and remember the healer is also usually busy running behind the crazy DD who's going god only knows where during bossfights, it would be a very funny run with: a DDchasing the boss, boss chasing the tank/heal, tan/heal chasing the crazyDD.
The shield nerf imho was not done to make heals more viable, if it were they should have know better that shields does NOT prevent all damage, remove/redesign surge-like skills (DPS while heal for crazy amounts) if u want more healers but there's little an healer can do to heal dead ppl being oneshotted or rework skills like Vigor (this should NOT stack imho or 2/3 good stamDD can heal a 4 man group)
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Rungar✭✭✭✭✭
✭It is great to think of ideas but it is even more important to justify claims made in the idea.
1. When stating there would be more tanks requires an explanation of how tanks will cease avoiding GF to begin with . Especially since most tanks avoid GF because of the far to common poor dps situation.
2. There are players in the game that can clear even vet DLC HM dungeons without a dedicated healer, but many players are not there yet. If the issue that keeps tanks out of GF is low DPS these same DPS probably need a dedicated healer.
3. It also goes against what Zos has recently stated, that they want healers to feel more needed, the reason behind the recent shield nerf. Eliminating them from the GF is probably not going to make them feel more needed.
While I read the entire OP, most of the points just would not work.
Fix the reason tanks do not queue if you want more tanks using the GF. They are there, they just avoid the GF like it is the plague.
i find you to be extremely dismissive of any change even though this game changes all the time but ill bite.
1) 3 dps will ensure more dps. There is no question about that. If you replace a healer with a dps youll get more dps and less healing.
2) zos changes their mind all the time so what they state yesterday doesnt really apply. I could also say that they recently said they are looking into a new approach which they did at the top of this forum. Instead i prefer to offer the ideas. Whether or not they use them or thinbk they are viable is up to them.
3) I pug tank all the time and i dont avoid the groupfinder. A matter of fact i only pug dungeons. Sometimes it really sucks. Other times it doesnt. I do see what goes on there though and im not biased by my premade group because i dont have one.I use my cinder storm to heal my puggies since i dont need it for myself so im already doing what you say cant work. Others are doing it as well.
4) this would have zero impact on trials since you could still be a main healer. You would just be a heavily armored main healer. My tank has as good magic sustain as my healer (~2100). With health based heals there would literally be no difference in a trial other than the healer would be harder to kill.
5) zos will gut every players ability to self heal to justify the healer role. I dont think its a good idea.Edited by Rungar on November 20, 2018 1:09PM0 -
Royaji✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If there are two roles you can efficiently combine it is healer and DD, not tank. Heals and damage scale from the same stat so a character built for healing is usually capable of being a solid DD.
What about tanks? They have abysmal Spell Damage and low max magická since they don't build for damage. Unless heals are %health based they are very small on your average tank.
Give tanks an option to have more healing? Well you remember about healing scaling from the same stats as damage? Yep, this will lead to tanky builds with strong healing and damage. And no one (including ZOS) wants that.
I'm sorry but this idea just shows that you do not understand the underlying game mechanics.3 -
Rungar✭✭✭✭✭
✭If there are two roles you can efficiently combine it is healer and DD, not tank. Heals and damage scale from the same stat so a character built for healing is usually capable of being a solid DD.
What about tanks? They have abysmal Spell Damage and low max magická since they don't build for damage. Unless heals are %health based they are very small on your average tank.
Give tanks an option to have more healing? Well you remember about healing scaling from the same stats as damage? Yep, this will lead to tanky builds with strong healing and damage. And no one (including ZOS) wants that.
I'm sorry but this idea just shows that you do not understand the underlying game mechanics.
You can act like they have never made a change in this game but in reality it changes all the time. It wasnt so long that sorc shields werent affected by health. Now they are, so in your world where nothing changes how can you reconcile that?0 -
Royaji✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If there are two roles you can efficiently combine it is healer and DD, not tank. Heals and damage scale from the same stat so a character built for healing is usually capable of being a solid DD.
What about tanks? They have abysmal Spell Damage and low max magická since they don't build for damage. Unless heals are %health based they are very small on your average tank.
Give tanks an option to have more healing? Well you remember about healing scaling from the same stats as damage? Yep, this will lead to tanky builds with strong healing and damage. And no one (including ZOS) wants that.
I'm sorry but this idea just shows that you do not understand the underlying game mechanics.
You can act like they have never made a change in this game but in reality it changes all the time. It wasnt so long that sorc shields werent affected by health. Now they are, so in your world where nothing changes how can you reconcile that?
I'm not sure how is that post relevant?
I'll ask again, a bit more simple: Heals scale from the same stats as damage. Tanks do not build for those stats and have abysmal healing as a result. Giving tanks an ability to have sufficent stats for both tanking and healing leads to them also having high damage.
How do you propose to combine tanking and healing role under such system? While avoiding turning everyone into a tanky self healing DD? And not ruining PvP in the process?
And no, ZOS is not going to balance PvE and PvP separately.1 -
Rungar✭✭✭✭✭
✭If there are two roles you can efficiently combine it is healer and DD, not tank. Heals and damage scale from the same stat so a character built for healing is usually capable of being a solid DD.
What about tanks? They have abysmal Spell Damage and low max magická since they don't build for damage. Unless heals are %health based they are very small on your average tank.
Give tanks an option to have more healing? Well you remember about healing scaling from the same stats as damage? Yep, this will lead to tanky builds with strong healing and damage. And no one (including ZOS) wants that.
I'm sorry but this idea just shows that you do not understand the underlying game mechanics.
You can act like they have never made a change in this game but in reality it changes all the time. It wasnt so long that sorc shields werent affected by health. Now they are, so in your world where nothing changes how can you reconcile that?
I'm not sure how is that post relevant?
I'll ask again, a bit more simple: Heals scale from the same stats as damage. Tanks do not build for those stats and have abysmal healing as a result. Giving tanks an ability to have sufficent stats for both tanking and healing leads to them also having high damage.
How do you propose to combine tanking and healing role under such system? While avoiding turning everyone into a tanky self healing DD? And not ruining PvP in the process?
And no, ZOS is not going to balance PvE and PvP separately.
but it doesnt when heals stack from health.i.e a change. I could have infinite healing on my tank but wouldnt be able to do more dmg. In order to do dmg you need high mag/stam and high weapon/spell dmg.
they used this exact same idea to balance shields recently by linking them to your health. With the exception of a couple of warden ice skills (and blazing shield) little if any dmg scales from health. Its purely defensive. Also most self healing is based on dmg done so it wouldnt be affected.
Edited by Rungar on November 20, 2018 1:46PM0 -
Royaji✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If there are two roles you can efficiently combine it is healer and DD, not tank. Heals and damage scale from the same stat so a character built for healing is usually capable of being a solid DD.
What about tanks? They have abysmal Spell Damage and low max magická since they don't build for damage. Unless heals are %health based they are very small on your average tank.
Give tanks an option to have more healing? Well you remember about healing scaling from the same stats as damage? Yep, this will lead to tanky builds with strong healing and damage. And no one (including ZOS) wants that.
I'm sorry but this idea just shows that you do not understand the underlying game mechanics.
You can act like they have never made a change in this game but in reality it changes all the time. It wasnt so long that sorc shields werent affected by health. Now they are, so in your world where nothing changes how can you reconcile that?
I'm not sure how is that post relevant?
I'll ask again, a bit more simple: Heals scale from the same stats as damage. Tanks do not build for those stats and have abysmal healing as a result. Giving tanks an ability to have sufficent stats for both tanking and healing leads to them also having high damage.
How do you propose to combine tanking and healing role under such system? While avoiding turning everyone into a tanky self healing DD? And not ruining PvP in the process?
And no, ZOS is not going to balance PvE and PvP separately.
but it doesnt when heals stack from health.i.e a change. I could have infinite healing on my tank but wouldnt be able to do more dmg. In order to do dmg you need high mag/stam and high weapon/spell dmg.
they used this exact same idea to balance shields recently by linking them to your health. With the exception of a couple of warden ice skills no dmg scales from health. Its purely defensive.
Giving people health based skills that heal others? I can see a lot of problems with that.
Starting with the fact that ZOS has already prevented a similar thing from happening after Morrowind's Battle Roar and Helping Hands changes made DK tanks go to 50k builds with 10+k igneous for allies. It was reduced very swiftly, literally under two weeks.
And of course the fact that unkillable health builds with giant heals (I remember seeing up to 80k) will make PvE content trivial like in case of 10k igneous in my example and make PvP unplayable since that healbot will be throwing around massive heals while being absolutely impenetrable under his 50+k health.
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Rungar✭✭✭✭✭
✭zos new idea is to use health to limit defensive powers while using the mag or stam stat to govern power so the days of what you describe are over.0 -
Royaji✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭zos new idea is to use health to limit defensive powers while using the mag or stam stat to govern power so the days of what you describe are over.
Wrong. Since you really can't let shield changes go let's dive into them a bit. Shields do not scale with health. They are limited by health. To this day they still scale with magicka. And a build with 10k magicka and 50k health will not have a 25k shield.
Your idea of merging tanking and healing requires scaling heals with health (or even another defensive stat) and it is not he same. And limiting healing by health will only make current healers mad, not allow tanks to efficiently heal. Kinda goes against the whole "make heales relevant" idea.0 -
Rungar✭✭✭✭✭
✭zos new idea is to use health to limit defensive powers while using the mag or stam stat to govern power so the days of what you describe are over.
Wrong. Since you really can't let shield changes go let's dive into them a bit. Shields do not scale with health. They are limited by health. To this day they still scale with magicka. And a build with 10k magicka and 50k health will not have a 25k shield.
Your idea of merging tanking and healing requires scaling heals with health (or even another defensive stat) and it is not he same. And limiting healing by health will only make current healers mad, not allow tanks to efficiently heal. Kinda goes against the whole "make heales relevant" idea.
I consider the health cap as part of the overall health scaling. i.e the shield solution. So you agree that there would be no runaway builds with this method since two stats are required.
i know there are many players that would love to tank heal. Ive done it myself on my templar. I do it on my dragonknight.
if i was zos i would do everything in my power to bring down the groupfinder to under 5 minutes. This is one way to help achieve that.
also i didnt make this playstyle. The game did it naturally despite what you, i, or zos wanted. I wouldnt write that off so quickly.
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idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It is great to think of ideas but it is even more important to justify claims made in the idea.
1. When stating there would be more tanks requires an explanation of how tanks will cease avoiding GF to begin with . Especially since most tanks avoid GF because of the far to common poor dps situation.
2. There are players in the game that can clear even vet DLC HM dungeons without a dedicated healer, but many players are not there yet. If the issue that keeps tanks out of GF is low DPS these same DPS probably need a dedicated healer.
3. It also goes against what Zos has recently stated, that they want healers to feel more needed, the reason behind the recent shield nerf. Eliminating them from the GF is probably not going to make them feel more needed.
While I read the entire OP, most of the points just would not work.
Fix the reason tanks do not queue if you want more tanks using the GF. They are there, they just avoid the GF like it is the plague.
i find you to be extremely dismissive of any change even though this game changes all the time but ill bite.
1) 3 dps will ensure more dps. There is no question about that. If you replace a healer with a dps youll get more dps and less healing.
2) zos changes their mind all the time so what they state yesterday doesnt really apply. I could also say that they recently said they are looking into a new approach which they did at the top of this forum. Instead i prefer to offer the ideas. Whether or not they use them or thinbk they are viable is up to them.
3) I pug tank all the time and i dont avoid the groupfinder. A matter of fact i only pug dungeons. Sometimes it really sucks. Other times it doesnt. I do see what goes on there though and im not biased by my premade group because i dont have one.I use my cinder storm to heal my puggies since i dont need it for myself so im already doing what you say cant work. Others are doing it as well.
4) this would have zero impact on trials since you could still be a main healer. You would just be a heavily armored main healer. My tank has as good magic sustain as my healer (~2100). With health based heals there would literally be no difference in a trial other than the healer would be harder to kill.
5) zos will gut every players ability to self heal to justify the healer role. I dont think its a good idea.
You make a comment at the start of your OP that more tanks would be generally available and do not say one thing that explains how your idea will make that happen.
Yes, I will be dismissive of half backed ideas that are not through. Guilty as charged.
1. 3 bad dps are also challenged keeping themselves alive so 3 dead dps do not equal more dps. Assuming they will be great at keeping themselves alive but cannot dps well is a huge stretch. You are even assuming they have anything on their bar to heal themselves and/or mitigate damage. Think about that for a minute. Heck, people complain about fake heals as well.
2. Zos does not do 180s very often. They certainly held their position with nerfing shields. Changing how they did it was merely semantics.
3. Great you pug in GF as a tank. You state exactly why most decent tanks do not. Your comment Cinderstorm does not say anything about anything. Anyone familiar with how GF groups can be and Cinderstorm knows it will not even come close to healing someone through stupid.
4. I never said anything about trials, though you are incorrect your suggestion would not impact trials. Radically changing heals to scale off max health and retrofitting the rStaff to be a bad tanking weapon like the frost staff is now would most certainly impact trials.
5. Zos has not indicated they will gut every ability to self heal. So far they have not touched that and probably a good idea to not give them any ideas.
It does not make sense to force healers out of GF. The idea suggested in the OP basically tells healers that GF is for everyone but them.,
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Anotherone773✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭No...
A good tank has a lot to do.
A good healer has a lot to do( and usually has to chase stupid DPS)
Neither need more to do.
Plus most classes can self heal to a degree. Sometimes as a healer i might do do only 50 or 60% of the healing in a dungeon which i am fine with. If i dont have to micromanage people so they dont die then i can help damage.
Instead what should be done is:
*Increase HP of mobs in dungeons by 25%
*Add a 5th person to dungeon groups so you have 1 tank 1 heal and 3 dps.
What this will do is decrease the amount of time DPS has to wait for a dungeon by about 50% which will also decrease the amount of fake tanks and heals who dont want to wait 20-30 minutes for a dungeon.2 -
Rungar✭✭✭✭✭
✭They have already begun gutting. Likely why they have come full stop and are re-evaluating.
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Royaji✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭zos new idea is to use health to limit defensive powers while using the mag or stam stat to govern power so the days of what you describe are over.
Wrong. Since you really can't let shield changes go let's dive into them a bit. Shields do not scale with health. They are limited by health. To this day they still scale with magicka. And a build with 10k magicka and 50k health will not have a 25k shield.
Your idea of merging tanking and healing requires scaling heals with health (or even another defensive stat) and it is not he same. And limiting healing by health will only make current healers mad, not allow tanks to efficiently heal. Kinda goes against the whole "make heales relevant" idea.
I consider the health cap as part of the overall health scaling. i.e the shield solution. So you agree that there would be no runaway builds with this method since two stats are required.
i know there are many players that would love to tank heal. Ive done it myself on my templar. I do it on my dragonknight.
if i was zos i would do everything in my power to bring down the groupfinder to under 5 minutes. This is one way to help achieve that.
also i didnt make this playstyle. The game did it naturally despite what you, i, or zos wanted. I wouldnt write that off so quickly.
Ok, one last try.
Shields scale with magicka. If your magicka is low, your shield will be small no matter what your health is. If you make heals work the same way it will not help tanks to heal because tanks have low magicka and spell damage. You only limit healing for actual healers. Making heals actually scale with health leads to very survivable high health builds who can heal others and are bad for both PvE and PvP.
If you like to tank-heal - go for it. You can already do it without any extra changes in place. Viable (for some content) but far from optimal. Forcing every healer to be a tank is bad and should not happen.1 -
Rungar✭✭✭✭✭
✭the false assumption your making is using the existing rules which zos would surely change as they always do.0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭the false assumption your making is using the existing rules which zos would surely change as they always do.
So regardless of whether or not ZOS changes things, why do you think that the role of healer and tank would benefit from being combined?
I'm of the opinion that good tanks provide sufficient benefits to the group in terms of battlefield control, debuffs, and tank-oriented mechanics that would be substantially harmed by expecting them to shoulder the extra burden of being a full healer. I do not have extra time during a fight to be healing others unless its a built in secondary effect of my abilities, because I am focused on battlefield control, debuffs, buffs, and mechanics.
Others have said much the same about healers. I know that when my healer has boss aggro because of a fake tank, it is much harder to pay attention to squishy players, harder to maintain buffs and DPS, and I have to stop healing to deal with tank-oriented mechanics. I very much dislike tanking on my healer because I'm only able to be a basic tank - stuxk with aggro and staying alive.
You seem to have a stunted view of healing and tanking - one where tank taunt, healers heal, and they stay alive while doing weak DPS. If that's the case, then yes, those roles can absolutely be combined into one character. Warden tanks FTW. Templars will be amazing. In easy normal dungeons, you can already do this with any class and have no problem, because those are cakewalks.
But that's not how good tanking and good healing work in ESO. Good tanks do far more than block and stay alive. Good healers are far more than weak DPS with heals.
Frankly, trying to combine those roles on anything but an experienced player is going to result in lackluster healing, basic tanking, and groups lacking in the vital battlefield control, buffs and debuffs those roles usually bring to the table.
But apparently you think otherwise. Why? For what level of PVE content do you think this is best suited?1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
I am with you on this.the false assumption your making is using the existing rules which zos would surely change as they always do.
Especially since we can now make anything up since we cannot take into account the way anything currently works when discussing this.
Edit: I think we can give this up. I do not think anyone has even thought it is an intriguing idea to force healers wanting to use the GF to be a tank as well (or refuse them access as a healer) and to require the few tanks that actually use GF to keep the group alive.Edited by idk on November 20, 2018 11:25PM1 -
Wayshuba✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »A basic tank holds boss aggro and doesn't die.
A good tank holds boss aggro, crowd controls mobs, taunts priority and heavy hitting adds, debuffs the boss, buffs the group, holds the boss more or less still in the AOEs, blocks, bashes, interrupts, follows mechanics, and doesn't die.
You could combine a basic tank with a Healer. Thats what my healer is forced to do every time I get a fake tank.
But a good tank is doing way too much to combine with a healer role.
As someone who primarily tanks I agree with this 100%. Soon as I read it I thought about all the stuff I do that you listed as a good tank and I thought yeah right - heal too.
I will add one thing to this. A tank is usually keeping his focus on bosses and mobs (and occassionally the healers). Now you seriously think I can keep my eyes on all that PLUS the entire group of players? A tank is focusing on animations, sounds and queues for incoming boss effects. A healer is watching life bars. We aren't even looking at the same places on the screen.
No, just no, to having tanks also be healers. I have plenty to do as a tank already.Edited by Wayshuba on November 20, 2018 4:58PM5 -
Weps✭✭✭✭Good tanks are already doing it for hard dungeons and arenas.
I don't think the two roles should be merged in all contentPS4 EU - CP 1000+ - EP Loyal
My EU PreciousesAemon Dk | Imperial Dragonknight Tank
Guari Gaburiefu | PvP Stamplar - Soon PvE tank
Nadija Zenobia | 45k+ PvE Dk - PvP Leaper
Naga del Serpente | High Elf Magicka Sorc PVE DPS - Soon tb 2nd crafter
Azor Ahai V | Dunmer Magicka DK for PVP and Pve
Jabba D'Cat | Khajiit Stamplar
Gennarino Auditore | 7k Weapon damage Bosmer Stamblade / Ganking experimental build
Rina Inbasu | Dunmer Magblade, my bomblade
Zelgadis Greywords | High Elf Magplar
Nachael Jordan | Redguard Stamsorc DPS
Orghuz Diul | StamWar DPS
This-Will-Buff-If | Argonian Warden Trial Off tank
Amelia Tesla Sallilune | Breton Magden PvP DD / PvE healer
Sap-My-Shield | PvP Nooblade, now dead PvE Tank1 -
BejaProphet✭✭✭✭✭
✭VaranisArano wrote: »A basic tank holds boss aggro and doesn't die.
A good tank holds boss aggro, crowd controls mobs, taunts priority and heavy hitting adds, debuffs the boss, buffs the group, holds the boss more or less still in the AOEs, blocks, bashes, interrupts, follows mechanics, and doesn't die.
You could combine a basic tank with a Healer. Thats what my healer is forced to do every time I get a fake tank.
But a good tank is doing way too much to combine with a healer role.
So much this! Can’t say it better.
Royal Poet's Dungeon Tanking Guide https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/416797/royal-poets-guide-to-traditional-tanking-in-veteran-dungeons#latest0 -
Rungar✭✭✭✭✭
✭Good tanks are already doing it for hard dungeons and arenas.
I don't think the two roles should be merged in all content
Neither do i. Trials would still have dedicated healers and tanks, but they would be easier to switch around especially if there is an off tank/healer. If the heals are the same then there is no disadvantage.
Edited by Rungar on November 20, 2018 9:58PM0 -
Soris✭✭✭✭✭
✭I like the OPs idea but i also agree that endgame content is so hard for this. However the pledge dungeons, at least the non dlc ones are fairly easy i guess for everyone above 160 cp by now. And honestly those are quite boring because of the ultra easy mode of their mechanics. So those vanilla dungeons can be catogorize as 3-man dungeons, for one healtank and 2 dds. This would give them a new fresh air and add a little bit challenge for every role without even changing any of the mechanics, so it would be easier to implement by devs.Welkynd [Templar/AD/EU]0 -
AcadianPaladin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I play both roles and find them mutually exclusive. Admittedly I have more experience on my magplar healer than my DK tank.
When tanking, my main concern is on our foes. My more specific considerations are reading 'tells' from the boss while trying to keep other bigger threats gathered around me in a killing zone for the dd's. If I had to focus on the health of my group, my tight group of foes would get sloppy and I'd likely miss blocks/bashes vs the boss.
When healing, my main concern is on our group. My more specific considerations are their health bars, positioning of group and my optimal positioning to support tank and dps, and keeping my buffs/debuffs/HoTs up. If I had to also tank (as I sometimes do when pugging with a fake tank) I would have to focus on the boss. When I do that I know from experience that my heals suffer and sometimes I can miss deteriorating health bars that I would normally replenish before critical and sometimes group members die because I have to keep too much focus on 'reading' the boss. When I have had to face tank a boss, sometimes I have ended up being the last one standing when the fight is over. Yay for the win but that is unacceptable for a healer. As a healer, I actually find it easier to crank out some decent ranged dps while healing than to try and tank while healing. Not to mention that positioning for a healer and ranged dps is pretty similar. I'm also concerned because, as a pure healer I want to slot about 14 skills in my 10 slots. To start dropping important healing skills to make room for taunt, pull and root skills is very worrisome.Edited by AcadianPaladin on November 21, 2018 3:00AMPC NA(no Steam), PvE, mostly solo1 -
Roboplus✭✭✭The problem with trinities is they took tanking, healing, buffing, debuffing, CC, and resource management and jammed them into 2 roles, while DPS are focused entirely on DPS.
If, through stronger (but diminishing) passive buffs on support abilities, everyone could deal around the same level of damage (and with less of a difference in terms of survival between tanks and everyone else) and do so with more support abilities and fewer attacks on bar, then you could have these more complicated encounters, with more reactive rotations, with less pressure on half the team (be that tank/healer or DPS depending on the fight).0 -
DoobZ69✭✭✭✭I think they should marge the DPS role with either tanking or healing. Here's the math behind this idea. There's 10 tanks in the game, 10 healers and 80 billion DPS.
10+10=20 tank healers who do all the work.
or
10+80 billion= 80,000,000,010 DPS healers or DPS tanks
Problem solved.1