Concern on spell strategist impact on PvE

Feanor · October 2018

Not to mention there isn’t VO for magicka after all these years. The counterpart for it was crappy Galerion’s Revenge.

John_Falstaff · October 2018

@Feanor , latest developments seem to be getting VO nerfed, not adding its version for magicka. ^^

Septimus_Magna · October 2018

Apherius wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Septimus_Magna , mm-m, I don't know. Personally, I think that, if this set will go out live, I will (on my situationally used magblade) just swap gear for Spell Strategist before every single target fight using AlphaGear. No tradeoff involved - the set will have just made me stronger in quite a lot of situations, without any drawbacks for carrying it around.

Hum, you will probably lose 5 inventory slot, it's the major drawback I see.

For some content thats possible but for stuff like BRP you wont switch mid fight.

John_Falstaff · October 2018

@Septimus_Magna , I think @Apherius was joking there, and it's a spot on, pressure for inventory is a huge tradeoff. ^^

But in all seriousness, "for some content" is already a lot. Mage, Rakkhat... Point in case, it pushes a spec forward in selection of content, while leaving it same as it was in other, where they just will swap in another set. It's almost a definition of power creep.

Septimus_Magna · October 2018

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Septimus_Magna , I think @Apherius was joking there, and it's a spot on, pressure for inventory is a huge tradeoff. ^^

But in all seriousness, "for some content" is already a lot. Mage, Rakkhat... Point in case, it pushes a spec forward in selection of content, while leaving it same as it was in other, where they just will swap in another set. It's almost a definition of power creep.

Relequen doesnt work any different and its probably overperforming even more.

Feanor · October 2018

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Feanor , latest developments seem to be getting VO nerfed, not adding its version for magicka. ^^

Yes I have seen that on patch notes. Though the Major Expedition on the 5pc is just nice to have - the real strong point is the stam return. You could say magicka has the same with the Destruction Master passive, but VO has the better proc condition.

John_Falstaff · October 2018

@Septimus_Magna , I'm not even arguing with that. Relequen - even though it has stronger limitations because of 20-second buildup where Strategist is instantly ready - is overperforming and it's not a great thing that stamina is carried by a single set, more so a proc set that does damage for the player (and more so, the shady quirk of damage being counted as melee direct damage being a staple for other build choices like Selene's or Ravager). Also not a good thing, and also a power creep without much variety.

@Feanor , situationally yes. I'm still on a fence about whether the speed nerf would be too harsh or not. I'm sure set will still be used for sustain in group content, and I'll keep running it too, but I'm curious how much mobility I'll lose in solo like vMA. But I mostly was joking (in sad way), that it seems like instead of giving the missing set counterpart to one spec, they chose to nerf the existing one.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · October 2018

@John_Falstaff that 20 second build up will get you 10-15% more DPS. 500 spell damage is nowheres close to that.

Sparr0w · October 2018

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

I understand that it is single Target but regardless of the fight this really pushes the power creep really far. As I don't have pts, I will just use Liko as a good test. He posts pretty straight forward and controlled dps parse of multiple mag toons and comparing to his wolfhunter build they all went up and passed their Stam counterparts. Yes this is single Target but so is Stam. Stam is also super carried by a proc set that is much less reliable than siroria.
I'm concerned that this makes for another elder staves online.

Because it's only single target, does that really justify a perfect uptime with literally the easiest proc condition ever? No cooldown, perfect traits and will be extremely available. I don't see this set being healthy for PvE.

Spell Strategist (Light)
2: Max Magicka
3: Spell Damage
4: Spell Damage
5: When you deal damage with a Light Attack, you place a mark over your target for 5 seconds, granting you 500 Spell Damage against your marked target. This effect can occur every 4 seconds.

@Onefrkncrzypope This set (like relequen) is useless on multiple targets. Also Liko even states not to compare with stamina since stam are missing minor vulnerability and loads of other minor buffs in the parses, since these buffs are needed to compare magicka classes to each other, but not needed to compare stamina classes to each other.

Which buffs/debuffs am I including and why?

Various buffs are used here in an attempt to fairly compare the different Magicka classes. Comparing Magicka Classes is more difficult than comparing Stamina due to the number of different buffs available. (Note this series of parses should not be used to compare between Magicka and Stamina - I am not using a source of Off-balanced and Minor Vulnerability for the Stamina Classes).

Regarding unique buffs, Magicka Sorcerer's have a source of Minor Prophecy (6% Spell Critical), Magicka Templars have a source of Minor Sorcery (10% Spell Damage) and Magicka Dragonknights have Engulfing Flames (10% extra damage to flame). For each test, I will only use one of these three sources. (I am not going to take up three people's time to help me make a more thoroughly fair test).

Minor Vulnerability is a debuff which will be applied to all Magicka classes to negate the randomness from self-made concussion procs. Combat Prayer (Minor Berserk) is provided as it is readily available on Magicka Nightblades, and is a basic buff applied by Healers.

Off-balanced is applied in certain cases (Magicka Dragonknight, for example), as it is a readily available debuff in a raid group, to determine the effectiveness of 75 points into Thaumaturge for the Exploiter Passive, which gives 10% extra damage to Off-balanced enemies. Some Magicka classes might not benefit from so many points into Thaumaturge, so it is required to see whether it makes a difference to builds that do.

Orbs are a tool for players to sustain their abilities in a fight. They are a basic need provided by support classes in trials, so they are present here.

John_Falstaff · October 2018

@Lightspeedflashb14_ESO , well, I just said that it's an unhealthy gain, is it not? In addition to being a fragile foundation to stamina damage output as it goes now. Thing is, right now, with Relequen for all its drawbacks, stamina pulls more or less the same as magicka on top right now or some higher, along 'high risk high reward' concept. Now, magicka will get a set that allows it to pull ahead of stamina with Relequen on single target fights again. So - expecting new Relequen to appear next patch, in order to bump whole damage ceiling even higher.

hedna123b14_ESO · October 2018

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Lightspeedflashb14_ESO , well, I just said that it's an unhealthy gain, is it not? In addition to being a fragile foundation to stamina damage output as it goes now. Thing is, right now, with Relequen for all its drawbacks, stamina pulls more or less the same as magicka on top right now or some higher, along 'high risk high reward' concept. Now, magicka will get a set that allows it to pull ahead of stamina with Relequen on single target fights again. So - expecting new Relequen to appear next patch, in order to bump whole damage ceiling even higher.

Lol...magicka wont be pulling on par with stam...sham is at least 10k above...

John_Falstaff · October 2018

@hedna123b14_ESO , stamblades mostly, and they just got an arrow to the knee a sneaky nerf to sustain and clunky spectral bow proc delay, so we'll see how it all turns after the update lands.

hedna123b14_ESO · October 2018

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@hedna123b14_ESO , stamblades mostly, and they just got an arrow to the knee a sneaky nerf to sustain and clunky spectral bow proc delay, so we'll see how it all turns after the update lands.

Speaking strictly for PvE all stamina classes are still far above magicka. That gap may have lessened for some classes, but it definitely still exists...

Sparr0w · October 2018

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@hedna123b14_ESO , stamblades mostly, and they just got an arrow to the knee a sneaky nerf to sustain and clunky spectral bow proc delay, so we'll see how it all turns after the update lands.

Speaking strictly for PvE all stamina classes are still far above magicka. That gap may have lessened for some classes, but it definitely still exists...

Agreed, mag were parsing 58-63k with minor vuln, off balance & minor sorcery. Stam were parsing 57-58k without those so stam should still be ahead of magicka classes dps wise, just the gap has lessened unless you're a magden... rip

Dreyloch · October 2018

Prepare to open your purses PvE ppl!

This set comes from rewards of the worthy bags in P...V...P...I'll be selling pieces for a reasonable price if your too scared to come out to Cyrodiil and get them yourselves =P

Yes, I know...very off topic, but hey, a man's gotta eat!! ROFL

Lord_Eomer · October 2018

Turelus wrote: »

ezio45 wrote: »

dude, who cares?

if you dont want to power creep dont use it? plenty of other good sets to run instead. just as great.... Personally I want to try it

its pve why do players care if they kill things to fast. and im not saying the saying the set does, i havent tested it. But personally i really want to try this instead of juli

Apart from the issues with power creep is Devs then have to up the monsters to compensate (or nerf the sets later on [so why not now?]) meaning you HAVE to keep up with the creep at some point.

Specifically saw your post favoring Stam and bashing magicka!

feeling unhappy to see biased player as Community Representative!

WrathOfInnos · October 2018

Well, it appears this set was nerfed before it went live. According to the patch notes it is now a 5s cooldown instead of a 4s cooldown. Therefore it no longer has the 1s “grace period” to maintain full uptime. 100% uptime is now an impossibility. Perfect weaving is required to effectively use the set, which makes it less accessible for most players. Another nerf thread succeeded... smh.

John_Falstaff · October 2018

@WrathOfInnos , I don't know if it's a huge nerf or not - even if one weave is missed, the set would still have 83% uptime, which would give a formidable 416 spell damage.

WrathOfInnos · October 2018

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@WrathOfInnos , I don't know if it's a huge nerf or not - even if one weave is missed, the set would still have 83% uptime, which would give a formidable 416 spell damage.

@John_Falstaff Depends on latency and attack speed. If your light attack lands on 4.99s then you get 83% uptime without even missing a light attack. Miss one and this drops further to around 71%. Not to mention the effect on builds that are forced to skip a light attack to use a cast time ability or heavy attacks for sustain.

The biggest effect of this change is going to be for builds that wanted to run this on front bar only. Previously they could proc it, use 4 skills on front bar, proc it again, and swap to back bar. Now this will result in having to stay an additional second on the front bar or losing the spell strategist bonus the entire time you’re on the back bar.

If it gets down to the range of 400 average spell damage it is no longer worth using. It still does nothing for AoE splash or healing, and loses a lot of effectiveness when switching targets.

Mintaka5 · October 2018

Thanks so much, for exposing me to this set. I must have it!!!!

TheValar85 · October 2018

This is a single target sett so it is working fine.

Onefrkncrzypope · October 2018

Got the nerf I wanted. Much much harder to keep up so enjoy the set.

scionix90 · November 2018

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

I understand that it is single Target but regardless of the fight this really pushes the power creep really far. As I don't have pts, I will just use Liko as a good test. He posts pretty straight forward and controlled dps parse of multiple mag toons and comparing to his wolfhunter build they all went up and passed their Stam counterparts. Yes this is single Target but so is Stam. Stam is also super carried by a proc set that is much less reliable than siroria.
I'm concerned that this makes for another elder staves online.

Because it's only single target, does that really justify a perfect uptime with literally the easiest proc condition ever? No cooldown, perfect traits and will be extremely available. I don't see this set being healthy for PvE.

Spell Strategist (Light)
2: Max Magicka
3: Spell Damage
4: Spell Damage
5: When you deal damage with a Light Attack, you place a mark over your target for 5 seconds, granting you 500 Spell Damage against your marked target. This effect can occur every 4 seconds.

CAN YOU PLEASE..Let a set be used and breath for a little while before you cry for a nerf?? Huh? That so hard?

scionix90 · November 2018

Masel wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

firedrgn wrote: »

Lots of sets buff 500 + mightbbe fun with monster set. If just light attacking

Just the 100% uptime is the issue. Scathing has a low proc chance, bsw has a cooldown and also averages just over juli. I just remember the distinct convos the devs gave us about the nerfs and competition and blah blah and then they makes this set. Lower the uptime, dont delete into Oblivion just 6/10 uptime like everything else makes sense

all those sets you mention also buff you overall spell damage, so heals/aoe damage are also impacted. this set is single target only and damage only. big difference.

Still, players are known for using whatever yields the highest dummy parse. This set is stronger than an arena weapon counterpart on stamina builds for that matter (master bow) and required less effort to keep up and can also be one-barred.

I'm no fan of relequen, siroria and this one per se because they are outperforming the rest by miles. Especially relequen, I want my chars to do the damage, not a damn proc set that on top of the damage procs direct damage sets even though it is a dot.

That’s great you feel that way but that doesn’t mean those sets are bad. People can use whatever and as long as you’re carrying your weight then you can wear whatever you want! People need to stop trying to get sets they don’t like nerfed.

f047ys3v3n · November 2018

eso_nya wrote: »

The set is an attempt to lure pvers into cyrodiil and battlegrounds to serve as feeders.

Willl get nerved within 3 month.

That's my take on it. I'm sure it's nice money for the PVP guys selling it right now.

Onefrkncrzypope · November 2018

scionix90 wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

I understand that it is single Target but regardless of the fight this really pushes the power creep really far. As I don't have pts, I will just use Liko as a good test. He posts pretty straight forward and controlled dps parse of multiple mag toons and comparing to his wolfhunter build they all went up and passed their Stam counterparts. Yes this is single Target but so is Stam. Stam is also super carried by a proc set that is much less reliable than siroria.
I'm concerned that this makes for another elder staves online.

Because it's only single target, does that really justify a perfect uptime with literally the easiest proc condition ever? No cooldown, perfect traits and will be extremely available. I don't see this set being healthy for PvE.

Spell Strategist (Light)
2: Max Magicka
3: Spell Damage
4: Spell Damage
5: When you deal damage with a Light Attack, you place a mark over your target for 5 seconds, granting you 500 Spell Damage against your marked target. This effect can occur every 4 seconds.

CAN YOU PLEASE..Let a set be used and breath for a little while before you cry for a nerf?? Huh? That so hard?

I said I'm good with the extra second. So quit being a pleb. I had a valid argument you just yell fake news, after the set was perfectly balanced. Move on

Thicclady · November 2018

Ok if delete Relequen too.

Thicclady · November 2018

LiquidPony wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

It gives 858 effective spell damage, lol. It's silly how OP it is in PvE. Nothing else comes even close to providing this much of a boost to damage (other than Siroria, but that set has an actual drawkback, while SS doesn't).

SS = 858 effective SD
BSW = 544 (at 60% uptime)
Julianos = 399
Necropotence = 590

Now, obviously this is just spell damage (some of these sets give crit%), but they all fall well behind SS in terms of DPS in testing.

It needs a nerf or no other set will be viable for PvE magicka. And I'm sure it will get a nerf, but hopefully it will be sooner rather than later (as in before the patch goes live). This is way stronger than Mechanical Acuity ever was, and even that set made every other set obsolete.

But again, that is all single target damage. The other sets have a smaller uptime, but when they are up they work on everything. This means in some fights, like the Mage in AA, if you proc this set right before you kill one of her shades, then you have to wait 4 seconds before the set will work against the main boss. Or if you are in a fight and one of your light attacks hit an add and procs the set, you are only doing more damage to that add.

Well BSW procs 6 secs before the add is dead. You will then have to wait 12 secs before next you have a 15% chance of a proc. In your arguement shows the unbalance with this set. Even with the 4 sec cooldown its still stronger than BSW which also again has a "perfect" uptime of not .66 but an effective uptime of .43. SS needs a cooldown.

But the only thing you lose there is the burning damage. You still gain the 500 spell damage that can apply to any enemy and healing. So if the add dies in 6 seconds, you still have the spell damage for 2 more seconds, and then in 4 seconds you will get an opportunity to proc it again. And still, that damage effects all of the outgoing damage you are doing during that time frame to every target you are hitting.

Healing is already taken care of by two healers and again if cleave was the issue then stam wouldn't be in the trail because they have a exclusively single target proc set that carries them.

But it's ONE enemy. Are you going to focus just in the boss and not in the adds?

Well, yes? That's exactly what we're going to do.

In the majority of content no one "focuses" adds. You just cleave them down with Blockade/Endless Hail/Caltrops/Destro Ultis/LL/Twisting/Jabs and so on and so forth.

Xvorg wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

firedrgn wrote: »

Lots of sets buff 500 + mightbbe fun with monster set. If just light attacking

Just the 100% uptime is the issue. Scathing has a low proc chance, bsw has a cooldown and also averages just over juli. I just remember the distinct convos the devs gave us about the nerfs and competition and blah blah and then they makes this set. Lower the uptime, dont delete into Oblivion just 6/10 uptime like everything else makes sense

It´s a pvp set that in return to having 100% uptime does not buff any defensive spells and is pure singletarget. Which is what balances it out for the content it was designed for.

I meant the use of this set in PvE where your heals and mitigation has been taken care of for you and the incoming damage is rather predictable. PvP its balancy???

Problem with spell dmg is that after certain point, there are diminishing returns. Yes, you can get a high spell dmg number but it won't translate into much more dmg.

That's why until certain point, magicka based build look for extra magicka (or penetration in PvP).

This set looks good up to the 4th stat, the 5th one is just meh, similar to WMK, but that one not only increases your spell dmg, but also your procs.

Not really. The percentage DPS increase has diminishing returns but in practice that's not what matters.

Say you've got 40,000 Magicka and 3,000 Spell Damage, and you're doing 40k DPS with Major/Minor Sorcery.

If you add 500 Spell Damage, you'll do 43,671 DPS (a 9.18% increase and a DPS increase of 3,671).

If you add 500 more Spell Damage, you'll do 47,405 DPS (an 8.55% increase and a DPS increase of (3,734).

So while your percentage DPS increase went down, since the base DPS value was larger, your actual DPS increase actually went up.

I didn't have time to put together a good visualization but this should demonstrate the idea:

The math could be wrong there, I'm just doing DPS increase = 1 + (10.5 * 500 * 1.25) / (40000 + 10.5 * Spell Damage)

Excellent, Could you do such graph for magicka/crit too please?