Bring back the speed

RedGirl41 · November 2018

this game focuses on helping people x v1. bring back the speed because playing small scale is aids. I don't even use swift or speed pots but im all about bringing back movement speed to escape the zerg.

Chilly-McFreeze · November 2018

likecats wrote: »

There should be consistency in a buff's availability. Either major expedition is easy to access across the board, or it is difficult to access across the board. Making it difficult to access generally, while also leaving only one source of easy access leads to bad balancing. Make major expedition universal, and speed pots should be reverted to 47s uptime. I don't mind reverting to old speed pots as long as they buff other sources of major expedition to provide defacto 100% uptime.

Your suggestion is alrigth, I can get behind that but still this quoted part is strange. Why? Because many major buffs are far easier (this includes set ups for viable builds) accessible through potions than through skills (for some classes they aren't even in their skill set at all.

Is it bad balance that I can't access major intellect through skills? Major Vitality is another buff that is far easier accessible for most classes through pots (even tho it hasn't 100% uptime). Why do I have to doubleslot a dead skill for 100% uptime on major savagery when using a potion is far more convenient?

When we go down this path far enough we not only have to ask ourself 1) how high we set opportunity costs of using a specific pot in regards of resource costs, bar space value and of cource the ability to run any other buff potion but also 2) if we want to give every class easy uptime on every buff just because some other class, even some other build, can have it and how this does affect diversity.

1)
How many resource is a speed potion worth? How long should blade cloak give maj Exp to make up the use of a speed pot? And which speed pot? The one that returns stam and grants immovability or the one with lingering health?
And after that how do we compare these two pots with major evasion, the dot damage, the enchant proc (does cloak still proc enchants from backbar?) and the skill slot value? And what about builds that don't want/can't run DW?

How do we compare speed pots to dodge rolls with a bow, the damage it evades, the reposition aspect and the possibility to proc sets? Or to proc off balance in cp environment? And how do we balance out speed pots and that bow dodge in cp and no cp then?
Once we've calculated that, we then have to do that for each and every skill that grants maj Exp and find the common ground. How? I guess by making them all the same with just a little different animation?

Is it better balanced to use a speed pot and get crit from a dead skill with totally 0 resource costs or is it better to get crit pots and use skills for maj exp with XYZ resource costs?

2)
Why should the designed to be fast classes like wardens and sorcerers be even when it comes to speed accessibility with classes that (even tho it's outdated) stand your ground (e.g. getting stronger buffs by standing in a magic circle they lay on the ground)?

I really don't want to taunt you, I said I agree with your suggestion, but the quoted part seems so off that I just have to ask you these questions on how do you want to balance pots to not be better or worse than skills. Because in your mind better = crutch.

likecats · November 2018

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

likecats wrote: »

There should be consistency in a buff's availability. Either major expedition is easy to access across the board, or it is difficult to access across the board. Making it difficult to access generally, while also leaving only one source of easy access leads to bad balancing. Make major expedition universal, and speed pots should be reverted to 47s uptime. I don't mind reverting to old speed pots as long as they buff other sources of major expedition to provide defacto 100% uptime.

Your suggestion is alrigth, I can get behind that but still this quoted part is strange. Why? Because many major buffs are far easier (this includes set ups for viable builds) accessible through potions than through skills (for some classes they aren't even in their skill set at all.

Is it bad balance that I can't access major intellect through skills? Major Vitality is another buff that is far easier accessible for most classes through pots (even tho it hasn't 100% uptime). Why do I have to doubleslot a dead skill for 100% uptime on major savagery when using a potion is far more convenient?

When we go down this path far enough we not only have to ask ourself 1) how high we set opportunity costs of using a specific pot in regards of resource costs, bar space value and of cource the ability to run any other buff potion but also 2) if we want to give every class easy uptime on every buff just because some other class, even some other build, can have it and how this does affect diversity.

1)
How many resource is a speed potion worth? How long should blade cloak give maj Exp to make up the use of a speed pot? And which speed pot? The one that returns stam and grants immovability or the one with lingering health?
And after that how do we compare these two pots with major evasion, the dot damage, the enchant proc (does cloak still proc enchants from backbar?) and the skill slot value? And what about builds that don't want/can't run DW?

How do we compare speed pots to dodge rolls with a bow, the damage it evades, the reposition aspect and the possibility to proc sets? Or to proc off balance in cp environment? And how do we balance out speed pots and that bow dodge in cp and no cp then?
Once we've calculated that, we then have to do that for each and every skill that grants maj Exp and find the common ground. How? I guess by making them all the same with just a little different animation?

Is it better balanced to use a speed pot and get crit from a dead skill with totally 0 resource costs or is it better to get crit pots and use skills for maj exp with XYZ resource costs?

2)
Why should the designed to be fast classes like wardens and sorcerers be even when it comes to speed accessibility with classes that (even tho it's outdated) stand your ground (e.g. getting stronger buffs by standing in a magic circle they lay on the ground)?

I really don't want to taunt you, I said I agree with your suggestion, but the quoted part seems so off that I just have to ask you these questions on how do you want to balance pots to not be better or worse than skills. Because in your mind better = crutch.

Well first of all, in my mind better != crutch.
But if you 'need' speed pots to 1vX, then you are crutching on speed pots to 1vX. 1vX is still possible without speed pots, always was. A good player can use old viper because old viper was BiS. But if a so called good player becomes a bad player overnight because they nerfed viper, then you can conclude they were crutching on old viper.

1)
In a PVP environment, I wouldn't put the effectiveness of major intellect or major prophecy to be anywhere close to major expedition. You can test right now how hard it is to land a dizzying swing without major expedition on an opponent with major expedition. You wouldn't even notice if your opponent was using major intellect or major prophecy.

Major intellect and co, are also much more accessible since they are available by many more potions at much less cost. I wouldn't be against them also balancing them, but to say that they [major intellect and co] is equally accessible as old speed pots is a tongue in cheek. Making speed pots available on all 'trash' pots as well as alliance war pots will be one step close to making the buff universal, I am fine if they implement this as the solution of making major expedition universal. I do believe everyone in ESO pvp uses some form of potions. It will have the same net result.

As for your comment about diversity, speed pots killed diversity if anything. It was more like the old sharpened. Sure you could argue that you had to give up a worse trait to use sharpened. But it was so overtuned than any other trait that everyone ended up using sharpened. Opportunity cost of using old speed pots was for too little for any stam toon. Difference with speed pots is though, that they are not universally accessible, therefore they are even more important to balance (either by buffing other sources or nerfing speed pots) than old sharpened.

I like the consistency they have with major vitality. They follow the general philosophy that it is difficult to access buff (25% uptime at best). When it used to be 45s, it was also way overtuned.

I am also unsure about your comment about how we balance major expedition via other sources and via speed pots. If they are both 100%, then it shouldn't matter either way. You can get 100% uptime for major brutality by rally, and by weapon power pots. They have the same net result. It increases build diversity if anything. It's a difference in how you want to accommodate major expedition in your build more than anything (since some builds have cramped bar spaces).

2)
Speed pots also did the same thing. Every stam DK, stamplar was still using speed pot because it is just so much stronger than any other potion. At this point I'm not exactly sure what point you're arguing against. If you want only fast classes to be fast, then you should keep speed pots nerfed, and only buff the fast classes' major expedition skills.

I am a little confused in your overall stance. I'd appreciate if you can clarify what sources should provide high major expedition uptime:
1) Only stam speed pots.
2) Only stam speed pots and magicka speed pots.
3) Stam speed pots + magicka speed pots + various skill options.
4) You want to keep speed pots nerfed and only classes that should be fast should have their major expedition skills buffed.

If you want 1) or 2), then I must disagree with you. If you want 3) or 4), then we're on track for building consensus.

likecats · November 2018

- accidental extra post

Maura_Neysa · November 2018

likecats wrote: »

If a mechanic is universal, then it's not a crutch, it's part of the base game.
Healing ward, vigor are all horizontally balanced. The healing aspect is universal across all classes.
Sets likewise are also universal, can't call them a crutch.

The old speed pot however, was the only source of high major expedition uptime.
If you had to rely on a singular overtuned item to perform then you were crutching on it. Just like if you 'need' the old viper to kill people, or you 'need' troll king to survive, then you are crutching on it. All of these are singular overtuned sets unique in what they provide.

No Speed Pots are not the only source of high Expedition up times. Falcon Swiftness, Rapids, Quick Serpent, Vicious Serpent, Acceleration, Skooma Smuggler (2/3 uptime), Druegh King, and several skills by over casting them.

Also Troll King, only used by classes lacking burst heal. How is a StamSorc using crit surge and Troll King, and different than a StamDen using Vigor and Shrooms or a Magplar using BoL and Eclipse. Now a StamDen wearing Troll King, Vigor and Shrooms, thats crutching, but that also means he doesn't have on Balorgh

That being said if they make 100% major expedition uptime universal by buffing major expedition uptime via skill lines, old speed pot will no longer be a crutch. It will be a balanced alternative to widely available buff.

If you're using Speed Pots than you are not using other very useful pots. Immovable, Lingering Heath, Vanishing, Detection

There should be consistency in a buff's availability. Either major expedition is easy to access across the board, or it is difficult to access across the board. Making it difficult to access generally, while also leaving only one source of easy access leads to bad balancing. Make major expedition universal, and speed pots should be reverted to 47s uptime. I don't mind reverting to old speed pots as long as they buff other sources of major expedition to provide defacto 100% uptime.

This is the exact

-up thinking that lead to this change in the first place. No not every build should have access to the exact same buffs. Warden had access to high Expedition up-times, this worked because they have no gap closer in PvP. MagSorc have *** self heals, which works because they had access to major shields. StamDK have *** in Direct Damage skills, but very good DoT damage access. StamDens have massive Direct Damage skills, and no DoTs at all

_Ahala_ · November 2018

Falcons Swiftness is 4s... not exactly what I would call high uptime... it’s actually such a short duration that it’s not worth the resources or gcd to even cast the skill in combat

likecats · November 2018

No Speed Pots are not the only source of high Expedition up times. Falcon Swiftness, Rapids, Quick Serpent, Vicious Serpent, Acceleration, Skooma Smuggler (2/3 uptime), Druegh King, and several skills by over casting them.

Are we really implying that they come at even minutely similar opportunity costs as speed pots? Even then speed pots were still more potent. Speed pots provided more uptime on major expedition for less opportunity cost.

If you're using Speed Pots than you are not using other very useful pots. Immovable, Lingering Heath, Vanishing, Detection

When sharpened was OP, you were also giving up important traits. The entire point was the the opportunity cost was nowhere near high enough. Speed pots mostly also come in variety of ME + immov or ME + lingering. The overall opportunity cost is nowhere as severe. If it was not the case, speed pots would not the BiS for ALL stam classes. Your argument that you were giving up something significant for speed pots goes down the drain when all Pro Stamdens were also relentlessly chugging speed pots, despite having in your words a skill [falcon swiftness] with high major expedition uptime.

This is the exact -up thinking that lead to this change in the first place. No not every build should have access to the exact same buffs. Warden had access to high Expedition up-times, this worked because they have no gap closer in PvP.

Then surely you must be against speed pots as well. Speed pots allows 'stand your ground' classes like DKs and Templars to have as high speeds as Warden. You seem to be contradicting yourself here.

Speed pots did exactly of what you don't like in this game 'Giving every build the same buffs' with the caveat the it was limited to stam. Surely they should be nerfed then since then Wardens will be visibly faster than other 'non-fast' classes like DKs and Templars. If you don't think that virtually every stam build was not chugging speed pot, then I guess we're playing a different game. Speed pots were also the biggest reason why stam was so much better than magicka in open world PVP.

Trying to defend speed pots because 'they' protect diversity is inherently contradictory. They destroy diversity by forcing every stam class (even the stand your ground types) to run it to be competitive.

This can be overcome 1 of 2 ways:
1) Buff other sources of major expedition to provide 100% uptime, opportunity cost goes down, speed pots become balanced.
2) Or nerf speed pots to provide low uptime on major expedition like other sources of major expedition.

Maura_Neysa · November 2018

likecats wrote: »

No Speed Pots are not the only source of high Expedition up times. Falcon Swiftness, Rapids, Quick Serpent, Vicious Serpent, Acceleration, Skooma Smuggler (2/3 uptime), Druegh King, and several skills by over casting them.

Are we really implying that they come at even minutely similar opportunity costs as speed pots? Even then speed pots is still more potent. Speed pots provided 100% uptime on major expedition for very little opportunity cost.
[/qoute]

I would much rather have my Tri-Stats on my StamDen and use BoP for my Expedition. I was casting that skill every 10 seconds for the Minor Berserk anyway, which "all Pro-StamDens" were also doing.
It's Cost is a 47 second cooldown. That's a frigging eternity. 47sec I can't cast a Dection pot on my StamDen who has no other way to pull a NB out of cloak

If you're using Speed Pots than you are not using other very useful pots. Immovable, Lingering Heath, Vanishing, Detection

When sharpened was OP, you were also giving up important traits. The entire point was the the opportunity cost was nowhere near high enough. Speed pots mostly also come in variety of ME + immov or ME + lingering. The overall opportunity cost is nowhere as severe. If it was not the case, speed pots would not the BiS for ALL stam classes. Your argument that you were giving up something significant for speed pots goes down the drain when all Pro Stamdens were also relentlessly chugging speed pots, despite having in your words a skill [falcon swiftness] with high major expedition uptime.

What important trait? Even now that Sharpened is in line with the others, everyone still runs what ever trait does the most damage. Nothing was given up, then or now.

This is the exact -up thinking that lead to this change in the first place. No not every build should have access to the exact same buffs. Warden had access to high Expedition up-times, this worked because they have no gap closer in PvP.

Then surely you must be against speed pots as well. Speed pots allows 'stand your ground' classes like DKs and Templars to have as high speeds as Warden. You seem to be contradicting yourself here.

No I dont agree at all. The reason for the speed nerfs was so ZoS could cover up how much they

-up with Jewelry

Bloodthirsty - Increases damage against enemies under 25% Health by: 6% 7% 8% 9% 10%
- Because it has a limited uptime this one is somewhat balanced. It's not worth running all 3 pieces for only 25% uptime

Harmony - Increases damage, healing, resource restore, and damage shield strength of synergies you activate by: 15% 20% 25% 30% 35%
- OP as hell. Only mitigated by the fact that you need at least 2 compitant players working together to make it worth while. 35% x3 Stronger Gravaty Crush? disgusting.

Infused - Increases jewelry enchantment effectiveness by: 24% 33% 42% 51% 60%
- Again OP. Infused weapon gets you 30% and you can only have one. Infused should have been 20% per piece. Potion reduction on Infused Jewelry is disgusting. Upside, its the best way to keep your high Major Expedition uptime.

Protective -Increases Spell Resistance and Physical Resistance by: 1624 1684 1744 1784 1844
- Just as useless as Nirnhonned Armor. No surprise there.

Swift - Increases Movement Speed by: 6% 7% 8% 9% 10%
- The Problem with Swift is that it stacked. It should be an alternative for classes with low mobility, not something that boost already fast classes. The two solutions are 1- Put it on the Major/Minor system (no idea how that would work) 2- change the way its calculated. Swift should be BiS on Stand You're Ground class, and worthless on a Kit class.

Triune - Increases Health, Magicka and Stamina by: 418, 380, 380 429, 390, 390 451, 410, 410 467, 425, 425 478, 435, 435
- Proof of just how sad this balance was. Triune is Prismatics for Jewelry and yet despite the fact that all tanks run Prismatics, none of them run Triune.

likecats · November 2018

You didn't address my point at all about speed pots ruining diversity. Simply went of on a tangent about jewelry traits.
I'll just restate it:
Trying to defend speed pots because 'they' protect diversity is inherently contradictory. They destroy diversity by forcing every stam class (even the stand your ground types) to run it to be competitive.

When sharpened was OP, you were still using giving up other traits like infused, nirnhoned etc. The entire point was sharpened did not have a high enough opportunity cost. These days there is much more diversity in what people use. I know many people who use sharpened, nirnhoned, precise and infused. Just because there will be a BiS doesn't mean we should stop trying to balance things.

Again, I would like if you can clarify your stance on major expedition uptimes because you're a little contradictory in your other points. You want 'different classes' to have access to different buffs, yet you also want speed pots that basically allow all stam classes to be as fast as the 'designed to be fast' classes like wardens.

Chilly-McFreeze · November 2018

likecats wrote: »

I am a little confused in your overall stance. I'd appreciate if you can clarify what sources should provide high major expedition uptime:
1) Only stam speed pots.
2) Only stam speed pots and magicka speed pots.
3) Stam speed pots + magicka speed pots + various skill options.
4) You want to keep speed pots nerfed and only classes that should be fast should have their major expedition skills buffed.

If you want 1) or 2), then I must disagree with you. If you want 3) or 4), then we're on track for building consensus.

I'm going for option 3. I simply asked these question to see where you train of thought leads. But please check who you are replying too:

likecats wrote: »

Again, I would like if you can clarify your stance on major expedition uptimes because you're a little contradictory in your other points. You want 'different classes' to have access to different buffs, yet you also want speed pots that basically allow all stam classes to be as fast as the 'designed to be fast' classes like wardens.

I guess you mean Maura, not me.

_Ahala_ wrote: »

Falcons Swiftness is 4s... not exactly what I would call high uptime... it’s actually such a short duration that it’s not worth the resources or gcd to even cast the skill in combat

Falcon used to be much longer. It's obvious she ment the pre nerfed version of that skill.

Maura_Neysa · November 2018

likecats wrote: »

You didn't address my point at all about speed pots ruining diversity. Simply went of on a tangent about jewelry traits.
I'll just restate it:
Trying to defend speed pots because 'they' protect diversity is inherently contradictory. They destroy diversity by forcing every stam class (even the stand your ground types) to run it to be competitive.

When sharpened was OP, you were still using giving up other traits like infused, nirnhoned etc. The entire point was sharpened did not have a high enough opportunity cost. These days there is much more diversity in what people use. I know many people who use sharpened, nirnhoned, precise and infused. Just because there will be a BiS doesn't mean we should stop trying to balance things.

Again, I would like if you can clarify your stance on major expedition uptimes because you're a little contradictory in your other points. You want 'different classes' to have access to different buffs, yet you also want speed pots that basically allow all stam classes to be as fast as the 'designed to be fast' classes like wardens.

Speed Pots do what Swift should be doing. Giving access to Major Expedition to builds that dont have it. Bring back Speed Pots and fix Swift, and there is your access to the same thing multiple ways. (along with Skills if you care less about 100% up-time and just want it when you need it.
You are right, one of the un-balanced items is that there are no Mag Speed pots, that needs fixed.

My argument is that Speed Pots were never the problem, and so should be reverted. They have been fine for 4 years. Speed only became a problem with Summerset. Hell Forward Momentum was the worse morph compared to Rally, until Summerset (and StamDen)
Speed is a problem because of Swift. ZoS tried to fix it by every means possible except for fixing Swift.

BlackMadara · November 2018

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

likecats wrote: »

No Speed Pots are not the only source of high Expedition up times. Falcon Swiftness, Rapids, Quick Serpent, Vicious Serpent, Acceleration, Skooma Smuggler (2/3 uptime), Druegh King, and several skills by over casting them.

Are we really implying that they come at even minutely similar opportunity costs as speed pots? Even then speed pots is still more potent. Speed pots provided 100% uptime on major expedition for very little opportunity cost.
[/qoute]

I would much rather have my Tri-Stats on my StamDen and use BoP for my Expedition. I was casting that skill every 10 seconds for the Minor Berserk anyway, which "all Pro-StamDens" were also doing.
It's Cost is a 47 second cooldown. That's a frigging eternity. 47sec I can't cast a Dection pot on my StamDen who has no other way to pull a NB out of cloak

If you're using Speed Pots than you are not using other very useful pots. Immovable, Lingering Heath, Vanishing, Detection

When sharpened was OP, you were also giving up important traits. The entire point was the the opportunity cost was nowhere near high enough. Speed pots mostly also come in variety of ME + immov or ME + lingering. The overall opportunity cost is nowhere as severe. If it was not the case, speed pots would not the BiS for ALL stam classes. Your argument that you were giving up something significant for speed pots goes down the drain when all Pro Stamdens were also relentlessly chugging speed pots, despite having in your words a skill [falcon swiftness] with high major expedition uptime.

What important trait? Even now that Sharpened is in line with the others, everyone still runs what ever trait does the most damage. Nothing was given up, then or now.

This is the exact -up thinking that lead to this change in the first place. No not every build should have access to the exact same buffs. Warden had access to high Expedition up-times, this worked because they have no gap closer in PvP.

Then surely you must be against speed pots as well. Speed pots allows 'stand your ground' classes like DKs and Templars to have as high speeds as Warden. You seem to be contradicting yourself here.

No I dont agree at all. The reason for the speed nerfs was so ZoS could cover up how much they -up with Jewelry

Bloodthirsty - Increases damage against enemies under 25% Health by: 6% 7% 8% 9% 10%
- Because it has a limited uptime this one is somewhat balanced. It's not worth running all 3 pieces for only 25% uptime

Harmony - Increases damage, healing, resource restore, and damage shield strength of synergies you activate by: 15% 20% 25% 30% 35%
- OP as hell. Only mitigated by the fact that you need at least 2 compitant players working together to make it worth while. 35% x3 Stronger Gravaty Crush? disgusting.

Infused - Increases jewelry enchantment effectiveness by: 24% 33% 42% 51% 60%
- Again OP. Infused weapon gets you 30% and you can only have one. Infused should have been 20% per piece. Potion reduction on Infused Jewelry is disgusting. Upside, its the best way to keep your high Major Expedition uptime.

Protective -Increases Spell Resistance and Physical Resistance by: 1624 1684 1744 1784 1844
- Just as useless as Nirnhonned Armor. No surprise there.

Swift - Increases Movement Speed by: 6% 7% 8% 9% 10%
- The Problem with Swift is that it stacked. It should be an alternative for classes with low mobility, not something that boost already fast classes. The two solutions are 1- Put it on the Major/Minor system (no idea how that would work) 2- change the way its calculated. Swift should be BiS on Stand You're Ground class, and worthless on a Kit class.

Triune - Increases Health, Magicka and Stamina by: 418, 380, 380 429, 390, 390 451, 410, 410 467, 425, 425 478, 435, 435
- Proof of just how sad this balance was. Triune is Prismatics for Jewelry and yet despite the fact that all tanks run Prismatics, none of them run Triune.

Agree on Bloodthirsty

Agree, somewhat, on Harmony, but it does require coordination.

Infused is fine imo. The traits that it buffs give an adequate, but not overbearing, increase or allow niche builds.

Protective is very strong. Nirn on armor gives 300 resists. Running 3x protective allows light armor users to have near the same base resists as heavy armor, while being able to utilize light armor passive. This means you still do more damage but avoid being too squishy.

Swift was ridiculous, but now it is fine. If you want to be fast, you can build for it. That is the catch though, you HAVE to build for it. Not just replacing jewelry traits. Actually combining multiple effects available. That is the balance.

Triune is powerful. Slighlty more resources that prismatic. Very good for anybody wanting well rounded stats that dont need anything else from jewelry.

Major Expo is powerful. Speed is powerful. ZoS simply decided they did not like high uptime of speed. Makes sense. In other games, speed is a powerful, short term buff. Or a long time buff that has a massive cooldown. 30% easily sustainable uptime boosted speed is stupid strong, no matter how you look at it.