torug's pact set in pvp.. did we just kill pvp?

DocFrost72 · October 2018

Qbiken wrote: »

mursie wrote: »

the most overpowered variant I've seen thus far:

werewolfs running torug's and blood moon. absolutely unkillable and you are melting instantly from oblivion/defile enchants that are proccing like crazy.

With that setup I can assure you that you´ve no good heal as a werewolf, and is definitely killable. Not defending the enchant meta, but pls.....

Only thing I can assume is they put a ton of points into health and magicka. With that damage output it'll take a group to get the damage required to kill you before you kill them (on paper. Ymmv)

Qbiken · October 2018

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

mursie wrote: »

the most overpowered variant I've seen thus far:

werewolfs running torug's and blood moon. absolutely unkillable and you are melting instantly from oblivion/defile enchants that are proccing like crazy.

With that setup I can assure you that you´ve no good heal as a werewolf, and is definitely killable. Not defending the enchant meta, but pls.....

Only thing I can assume is they put a ton of points into health and magicka. With that damage output it'll take a group to get the damage required to kill you before you kill them (on paper. Ymmv)

You need to pass 30k HP to get any decent usage of the werewolf heal, and bloodmoon is a highly overrated set for PvP. Werewolf has a very low crit chance in general, and their light/heavy attacks has an extremly clunky and unreliable hitbox, making it very difficult to land several LA/HA in succession (unless your enemy is a full blown potato standing still).

DocFrost72 · October 2018

You're telling me things I already know

Don't know why they'd be using bloodmoon instead of plague or impreg. Just saying that when your enchants are doing all your damage for you, your crit doesn't matter as much. Assume 5 heavy with plague, all health enchants +all pieces impen , and if you really want overkill chudan 2 pce. Change the picture to that, and this enchant meme becomes a real issue.

Nothing to do with werewolf at all.

Qbiken · October 2018

DocFrost72 wrote: »

You're telling me things I already know

Don't know why they'd be using bloodmoon instead of plague or impreg. Just saying that when your enchants are doing all your damage for you, your crit doesn't matter as much. Assume 5 heavy with plague, all health enchants +all pieces impen , and if you really want overkill chudan 2 pce. Change the picture to that, and this enchant meme becomes a real issue.

Nothing to do with werewolf at all.

So much this

raasdal · October 2018

Aznox wrote: »

Look if your goal is to get this fixed ASAP, then don't complain about me, i'm running around in game linking my stuff in chat every 5 minutes and admitting openly on forum that is unbalanced.

If all tryhards where doing the same instead of using such things secretly hoping for them to last as long as possible we wouldn't be here.

Game is the game, there's only one set of rules, and it is the same for everyone.

You should try it too and have a good laugh :

Stamsorc
Heavy Torug
Defiler (or any fun set you'd like, doesn't really matter)
Troll King
4 infused weapon with the obvious selection of enchants
2 DW abilities on each bar
Crit surge, Dark Deal, Overload, etc..

Range, AoE, Execute, Self-heal, Slow, Gap closer, escape, etc.. it has everything

Ahaha! Doing the exact same thing. I use Green Pact or Orgnum for that juicy 5-6K Health Regen. Makes up for my loss of speed this patch.

I use Blood Craze on Backbar and Bloodthirst on Front. Tried Blade Cloak on Backbar as that will also carry over the enchant, but does not activate enough and will hit other targets not intended.

But yeah. Blood Craze into Bloodthirst will melt anyone in seconds with those 4 enchants popping on cooldown. I don't even need another damage set.

BUT - where do you get your Gapcloser from? I have none.

Regarding the issue, please all remember there are 3 points here;

1. DoTs proccing Enchant (STOP saying bleeds. Bleeds do not proc enchants. DoTs do.)
2. Enchants proc carry over (change made last patch)
3. Both enchants proc at the same time from 1 action on Dual Wield

No. 1 should be changed back. Breaks so many things, including NB Cloak and is just not balanced.
No. 2 is OK.
No. 3 is a Bug, plain and simple. Expect ZOS to take 3 months to fix it.

No. 3 is the main reason we have issues. This makes DW insanely OP, especially in No CP. No. 1 multiplies this exponentially, but is actually NOT the worst culprit here. The WORST right now, is the insta-proc of both Enchants at the same time, with just 1 action. Right now, one blood craze tick will proc both your enchants. It should only proc 1.

Aznox · October 2018

To be honest, I came back from double DW to my old DW/SnB I could play with both eyes closed, and the result was really cruel for most of those who crossed my path since.

wheem_ESO · October 2018

raasdal wrote: »

Regarding the issue, please all remember there are 3 points here;

1. DoTs proccing Enchant (STOP saying bleeds. Bleeds do not proc enchants. DoTs do.)
2. Enchants proc carry over (change made last patch)
3. Both enchants proc at the same time from 1 action on Dual Wield

No. 1 should be changed back. Breaks so many things, including NB Cloak and is just not balanced.
No. 2 is OK.
No. 3 is a Bug, plain and simple. Expect ZOS to take 3 months to fix it.

No. 3 is the main reason we have issues. This makes DW insanely OP, especially in No CP. No. 1 multiplies this exponentially, but is actually NOT the worst culprit here. The WORST right now, is the insta-proc of both Enchants at the same time, with just 1 action. Right now, one blood craze tick will proc both your enchants. It should only proc 1.

While you might be technically correct with No. 1, it's really bleeds that are causing the biggest problem. They were already overpowered with Master weapons, and now they'll be double triggering weapon procs every 2 seconds, even after bar swapping. This issue is pretty strictly limited to Stamina builds (how many Magicka builds have you seen that are back barring a Destro Staff?), with Dual Wield bleeds being the biggest offender. With a Bow's Poison Injection, you're at least only getting proc'd on once per tick (not that that makes it actually balanced).

Weapon procs from a bar that isn't active simply shouldn't be a thing (unless perhaps major balance changes happen across the board). And Dual Wield probably shouldn't have two full strength enchants, either.

Emma_Overload · October 2018

As I've said elsewhere, Dual Wield could be addressed simply by making the enchants ONLY proc off the main hand weapon.

Xvorg · October 2018

Qbiken wrote: »

mursie wrote: »

the most overpowered variant I've seen thus far:

werewolfs running torug's and blood moon. absolutely unkillable and you are melting instantly from oblivion/defile enchants that are proccing like crazy.

With that setup I can assure you that you´ve no good heal as a werewolf, and is definitely killable. Not defending the enchant meta, but pls.....

what about healing enchants?

And what about torug's + veiled heritance with healing enchants + blood craze/claws of life + Kena?

This is the kind of thing I don't like about PTS... everything should be tested but...

IZZEFlameLash · October 2018

raasdal wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

Look if your goal is to get this fixed ASAP, then don't complain about me, i'm running around in game linking my stuff in chat every 5 minutes and admitting openly on forum that is unbalanced.

If all tryhards where doing the same instead of using such things secretly hoping for them to last as long as possible we wouldn't be here.

Game is the game, there's only one set of rules, and it is the same for everyone.

You should try it too and have a good laugh :

Stamsorc
Heavy Torug
Defiler (or any fun set you'd like, doesn't really matter)
Troll King
4 infused weapon with the obvious selection of enchants
2 DW abilities on each bar
Crit surge, Dark Deal, Overload, etc..

Range, AoE, Execute, Self-heal, Slow, Gap closer, escape, etc.. it has everything

Ahaha! Doing the exact same thing. I use Green Pact or Orgnum for that juicy 5-6K Health Regen. Makes up for my loss of speed this patch.

I use Blood Craze on Backbar and Bloodthirst on Front. Tried Blade Cloak on Backbar as that will also carry over the enchant, but does not activate enough and will hit other targets not intended.

But yeah. Blood Craze into Bloodthirst will melt anyone in seconds with those 4 enchants popping on cooldown. I don't even need another damage set.

BUT - where do you get your Gapcloser from? I have none.

Regarding the issue, please all remember there are 3 points here;

1. DoTs proccing Enchant (STOP saying bleeds. Bleeds do not proc enchants. DoTs do.)
2. Enchants proc carry over (change made last patch)
3. Both enchants proc at the same time from 1 action on Dual Wield

No. 1 should be changed back. Breaks so many things, including NB Cloak and is just not balanced.
No. 2 is OK.
No. 3 is a Bug, plain and simple. Expect ZOS to take 3 months to fix it.

No. 3 is the main reason we have issues. This makes DW insanely OP, especially in No CP. No. 1 multiplies this exponentially, but is actually NOT the worst culprit here. The WORST right now, is the insta-proc of both Enchants at the same time, with just 1 action. Right now, one blood craze tick will proc both your enchants. It should only proc 1.

Bleed is a DoT, so it is proccing enchants technically. Also, since it is a weapon DoT... so yeah. Bleed does proc it better than any magicka counterpart.

csparks1 · October 2018

Meanwhile i'm enjoying double dual wield bars ... why stop at 3 when you can have 4 Torug Infused enchants ?

you are evil, does that work? I'm gonna try it right now

I just know that the way they fix this is to nerf Torug's instead of the bleed problem.... When Torug's has been the same old set forever - alot of people have used it since the game started - people play with it for a while and move on... But now - I bet they nerf the set and leave the bleeds

wheem_ESO · October 2018

I'd be 100% fine with a Torug's Pact nerf, too. Or an Infused nerf. Or a nerf to the interaction between Infused and Torug's Pact. Even without DW or the bleeds, it's kinda dumb to eat almost 8.6k damage (through shields) from just a few seconds worth of light attacks at range. In one specific incident that happened to me just a few minutes ago, I took more damage from a Magblade's enchants than I did from his/her 2 Assassin's Wills combined (to be fair, I guess I blocked the first one...but they don't go through shields either).

It just gets to a whole different level of stupid when you have 2 full strength enchants going off every 2 seconds because some Stam player hit one button for a snare + huge DOT. And when there's more than 1 Stam player doing that at the same time, it's...yea. Pretty much every BG death recap is overwhelmed by enchants right now.

heng14rwb17_ESO · October 2018

GO DW OR GO CRY

Heimdarm · October 2018

I play about 10+ BG matches per day, and 1-2 hours in Cyrodiil Vivec + half of the weekend, and not even once I run into this problem, but I always check what killed me. Two days ago I started to use a bow/bow character, before I was a melee tank, and a ranged magblade, so I don't say this cause I use dw/dw and want to defend it. Just wanted to add that this "problem", if it is a problem at all seems a little exaggerated to me considering how much gametime I spend in PVP and not a single time I was killed by this. I believe some players were killed by torug dw/dw, but reading the above suggest that everyone run torug+dw/dw now and it is soo OP, but for me it seems that there is a new strong build some ppl using now. So, what? There are other strong build types, find the one that suits you and have fun. However, in BG 80% of players I met in the past days are snipers or ranged magicka. I had great playtime and success in BG as both tank, magblade and sniper in the past days, as a ranged dps I had a ton of kills.

wheem_ESO · October 2018

Heimdarm wrote: »

I play about 10+ BG matches per day, and 1-2 hours in Cyrodiil Vivec + half of the weekend, and not even once I run into this problem, but I always check what killed me. Two days ago I started to use a bow/bow character, before I was a melee tank, and a ranged magblade, so I don't say this cause I use dw/dw and want to defend it. Just wanted to add that this "problem", if it is a problem at all seems a little exaggerated to me considering how much gametime I spend in PVP and not a single time I was killed by this. I believe some players were killed by torug dw/dw, but reading the above suggest that everyone run torug+dw/dw now and it is soo OP, but for me it seems that there is a new strong build some ppl using now. So, what? There are other strong build types, find the one that suits you and have fun. However, in BG 80% of players I met in the past days are snipers or ranged magicka. I had great playtime and success in BG as both tank, magblade and sniper in the past days, as a ranged dps I had a ton of kills.

You're on PC, right? The patch hasn't hit consoles yet, so if you're on XBox or PS4 you certainly won't be experiencing the same issue.

A sampling of some BG death recaps that I bothered to screenshot over the last couple days: https://imgur.com/a/AWJjRsO

This enchant nonsense is not just some kind of "strong build" - it's ridiculous. Notice the bottom screenshot in the album; I took more damage from the Stamina player's singular global cooldown than I did from the Magicka DK's two Flame Lashes + a Power Lash (I'm a Stage 4 Vampire btw). And that's even with the Stamina player's Rending Slashes damage being garbage; I mean seriously, it was < 1k/tick, whereas I can often eat 1.6 - 1.9k from that one ability. Didn't matter though, it came with an extra 8,564 damage - which goes right through shields and all other defenses - attached. It's also worth mentioning that I almost certainly took another 4x ticks of some other enchant proc from the Stam class, but it didn't make it onto the recap.

Imagine that this change had instead been something that affected basically every Magicka build in the game, but not their Stamina counterparts...which is the exact reverse of what has actually occurred. This would entail all Magicka classes - without giving up an extra bar slot or anything - getting an extra DOT that would do more than 3.5k damage to you every 2 seconds, along with either putting up a major defile, or returning some resources to us. All we'd need to do is switch to our back bar and pop off one global cooldown every so often. As a frame of reference, my Magicka Warden's Fetcher Infection is generally somewhere between 900-1300 damage/tick, depending on target and what not (also note that the Oblivion damage proc doesn't get reduced by resists, whereas my DOT does).

Heimdarm · October 2018

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Heimdarm wrote: »

I play about 10+ BG matches per day, and 1-2 hours in Cyrodiil Vivec + half of the weekend, and not even once I run into this problem, but I always check what killed me. Two days ago I started to use a bow/bow character, before I was a melee tank, and a ranged magblade, so I don't say this cause I use dw/dw and want to defend it. Just wanted to add that this "problem", if it is a problem at all seems a little exaggerated to me considering how much gametime I spend in PVP and not a single time I was killed by this. I believe some players were killed by torug dw/dw, but reading the above suggest that everyone run torug+dw/dw now and it is soo OP, but for me it seems that there is a new strong build some ppl using now. So, what? There are other strong build types, find the one that suits you and have fun. However, in BG 80% of players I met in the past days are snipers or ranged magicka. I had great playtime and success in BG as both tank, magblade and sniper in the past days, as a ranged dps I had a ton of kills.

You're on PC, right? The patch hasn't hit consoles yet, so if you're on XBox or PS4 you certainly won't be experiencing the same issue.

A sampling of some BG death recaps that I bothered to screenshot over the last couple days: https://imgur.com/a/AWJjRsO

This enchant nonsense is not just some kind of "strong build" - it's ridiculous. Notice the bottom screenshot in the album; I took more damage from the Stamina player's singular global cooldown than I did from the Magicka DK's two Flame Lashes + a Power Lash (I'm a Stage 4 Vampire btw). And that's even with the Stamina player's Rending Slashes damage being garbage; I mean seriously, it was < 1k/tick, whereas I can often eat 1.6 - 1.9k from that one ability. Didn't matter though, it came with an extra 8,564 damage - which goes right through shields and all other defenses - attached. It's also worth mentioning that I almost certainly took another 4x ticks of some other enchant proc from the Stam class, but it didn't make it onto the recap.

Imagine that this change had instead been something that affected basically every Magicka build in the game, but not their Stamina counterparts...which is the exact reverse of what has actually occurred. This would entail all Magicka classes - without giving up an extra bar slot or anything - getting an extra DOT that would do more than 3.5k damage to you every 2 seconds, along with either putting up a major defile, or returning some resources to us. All we'd need to do is switch to our back bar and pop off one global cooldown every so often. As a frame of reference, my Magicka Warden's Fetcher Infection is generally somewhere between 900-1300 damage/tick, depending on target and what not (also note that the Oblivion damage proc doesn't get reduced by resists, whereas my DOT does).

I am on EU PC. So, may I ask that would this change be a problem if there would be a dw magicka based weapon set and mag players could use this as well? So it would effect everyone equally?

I still don't really see the problem. You died because of the type of build the enemy used. Does it matter that you die because of enchant/proc set/skill/LA/HA ? I still say I can easily kill and survive these days in BG and CP Cyrodiil with magblade, tank and bow build, and these are quite different playstyles.. Of course there is always a counter-build I will die to.. Kill the torug dw/dw from range, use magblade, bring in a support for the team and clean the dots, also use wyrd tree,or be the one who use torug dw/dw.. these are my first ideas maybe wrong ones, but the point is that everyone and everything can be killed with another type of set combinations.

If everyone would use the torug dw/dw that would not be good, but not everyone use it as not everyone used sload as well. There is a great diversity of sets ppl are using, either because they have no idea what to use, or they have a creative working solution. 10 minutes ago I met the first two dw guys in BG in a week and even those used only class skills, so no torug. There are players who uses strong or if you like to say OP sets of torug dw/dw then let them use it. Others will use OP sniper sets, or OP permablock sets etc...

When I can not make two steps in BG without instakilled by 4 players using torug dw/dw I will say you are right, but at the moment I can only see just another very good build on some screenshots of others, and hope to meet them in pvp when I am waiting with a bow in cloak.

Anyway I am far from being a good player, so I don't say that people here do not have valid points in their arguments, I just say that in my opinion the situation is not that big problem at this time.

killahsin · October 2018

@heimdarm if you are on na i can show you what this problem looks like. It makes you 'pop' literally melt when it 'procs' all at once. And this 'proc' can be managed pretty efficiently if you design your build around it while maintaining a sustain base. I have no problem having this mechanic in the game so long as there is a counter to it. Which is why i believe the solution should be a flat decrease to enchant dmg while also adding resists/dmg from the CS system into the equation. People keep using the word bleed to describe it because people already have a distaste with bleed builds. This however is more of a dot related issue that can also be run on bleed builds so its a compounding problem. However this does not require bleeds to run and is a dot mechanic completely.

Heimdarm · October 2018

Well, for a long time now I think there should be a torug pact set for stam users as well, and as a counter to the current situation there should be a wyrd tree set equalilent for stamina users as well, and decrease its cooldown from 15sec. And maybe it should affect more players in the group or in a radius.

killahsin · October 2018

i agree

Waffennacht · October 2018

I kinda feel like NBs don't get to have an opinion.

Just my feelings about a class that has access to everything including damage (dot) suppression - in a meta of DoTs

killahsin · October 2018

I agree except for me I feel like DK's dont get to have an opinion.

Joy_Division · October 2018

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

DW isn't the only problem: the new change means running a stamina/magicka return glyph on backbar results in roughly 1.2k regen, running a berserker glyph results in 99% uptime on 452 weapon/spell damage, etc. Magicka's weapon lines (AKA destro staff) also has no "true" DOT, just a stun with a DOT attached and an AOE that can be moved out of, so this enchant buff is a buff to stam all around when it was already dominant in PVP.

tl;dr: give magicka more weapon lines pls

I have the feeling the incoming fix will be that enchants aren't going to proc on single target weapon abilities.

Waffennacht · October 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

DW isn't the only problem: the new change means running a stamina/magicka return glyph on backbar results in roughly 1.2k regen, running a berserker glyph results in 99% uptime on 452 weapon/spell damage, etc. Magicka's weapon lines (AKA destro staff) also has no "true" DOT, just a stun with a DOT attached and an AOE that can be moved out of, so this enchant buff is a buff to stam all around when it was already dominant in PVP.

tl;dr: give magicka more weapon lines pls

I have the feeling the incoming fix will be that enchants aren't going to proc on single target weapon abilities.

So SnB gets a little worse compared to other offensive weapon choices?

DW has 2 AoEs, 2H 1, Destro 2, SnB 0, resto 0

Would quick cloak or Spin2win proc both enchantments on cooldown? Would both still proc on a single opponent if Spin2winning against 1 player?

Galalin · October 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

DW isn't the only problem: the new change means running a stamina/magicka return glyph on backbar results in roughly 1.2k regen, running a berserker glyph results in 99% uptime on 452 weapon/spell damage, etc. Magicka's weapon lines (AKA destro staff) also has no "true" DOT, just a stun with a DOT attached and an AOE that can be moved out of, so this enchant buff is a buff to stam all around when it was already dominant in PVP.

tl;dr: give magicka more weapon lines pls

I have the feeling the incoming fix will be that enchants aren't going to proc on single target weapon abilities.

You mean off the first damage tick of a weapon ability? I dont think AoE plays into anything here but if I am wrong holy ***.