Rapid Maneuvers - Balance before Live

mojomood · October 2018

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Everyone has access to this skill so I fail to see how it can be imbalanced. ZOS only targeted class-specific skills.

This skill is also mandatory for a lot of content:

- Skyshard/Psijic portal/book collecting
- Node farming
- Traveling between keeps in Cyrodiil

The requested nerf would not affect any of those. Everyone is fine with the time it lasts and that it is removed when in combat. the issue is that large 24 man ball groups will have one player dedicated to refreshing it WHILE IN COMBAT. This means that speed builds will be just as strong, as long as you are in the zerg. So it adds to the meta of zerg or be zerged and directly works against ZOS's goal of spreading people out. The only nerf that makes sense here is cost increase if cast within X seconds of the previous cast. This will only break the spammers in ball groups.

ecru · October 2018

Sandman929 wrote: »

What bothers me with some of the comments here is that people think bigger groups are getting something for free that smaller groups aren't. There are still an actual people playing support roles, and their builds are centered around supporting the group via buffs and enemy debuffs. It's not easy and it's not free for the group, someone has to do it.

It's not free, but it's still only one ability out of hundreds with an absurdly overpowered amount of utility. The cost/benefit ratio is completely out of line. One person using one ability removes all cc and gives cc immunity to their entire group while also giving major expedition (up to 24 people) over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. You would be stupid not to have at least one person in the group with this ability because of the utility it provides, giving your group a tremendous advantage (near permanent mobility, cc immunity, and unlimited cc breaks) over any group without this ability. One single ability should not be that good while also applying to up to 24 people at the same time.

ZOS hasn't quite figured out how to be consistent with the amount of damage, healing, or utility abilities provide from pve to pvp. Rapids is just one example. The amount of damage that can be instantly mitigated by a single purge (compared to a heal) is another example of way, way too much utility in one ability, and while that isn't exactly what this thread is about, when we combine these things we start to see the stupid amount of utility/mitigation one person with a few abilities can provide to a very large group. Abilities like that carry over from pve to pvp where their strength is multiplied to an absurd degree and ZOS never seems to address it. If you look at purge or rapids from a pvp standpoint, you'd figure abilities this powerful would exist to counter things like stacking aoe dots/debuffs or aoe cc, but none of those things really exist in ESO like they do in other MMOs.

DivineFirstYOLO · October 2018

The thing is that Maneuver is the direct counter to skills like Talons and Encase. Both of those skills cost 4k magicka while Maneuver costs 8k stamina. Talons and Encase have a 6 target cap, Maneuver has 24. So reducing Maneuvers cap to 12 would perfectly balance the skill, but this thread isn't about balancing anyway..most people in here are just hypocrites who think they are entitled to kill everything that comes in sight. They forget that there are organized groups that are simply better than their group of small scalers and numbers are still more important in ESO than anything else.

visionality · October 2018

Tbh, I think this whole thread should not exist at all - because ZOS should not nerf all sources of major expedition but fix swift jewellery.

BUT - if talking about rapid as the last unnerfed source of major expedition - the real pain point of retreating maneuver is not the speed buff, but the constant snare removal by rapid bots. And if you want to fix that, you just have to add a cooldown to the snare-removal. Meaning: After cast, the CC-immunity (and removal of existing snares) by rapid goes on cooldown for 30 seconds (thats as long as rapid runs when fully leveled).

Advantage: For groups and single players that want to move quickly from one place to another, retreating maneuver will still work exactly as before. But a rapid bot will not be able to constantly purge all CCs in his group with just one single skill.

del9 · October 2018

visionality wrote: »

Tbh, I think this whole thread should not exist at all - because ZOS should not nerf all sources of major expedition but fix swift jewellery.

BUT - if talking about rapid as the last unnerfed source of major expedition - the real pain point of retreating maneuver is not the speed buff, but the constant snare removal by rapid bots. And if you want to fix that, you just have to add a cooldown to the snare-removal. Meaning: After cast, the CC-immunity (and removal of existing snares) by rapid goes on cooldown for 30 seconds (thats as long as rapid runs when fully leveled).

Advantage: For groups and single players that want to move quickly from one place to another, retreating maneuver will still work exactly as before. But a rapid bot will not be able to constantly purge all CCs in his group with just one single skill.

Good thoughts but is too late. Nothing was done, and I'm not even sure they are aware this thread exists.

Unsubbed.

Haashhtaag · October 2018

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Everyone has access to this skill so I fail to see how it can be imbalanced. ZOS only targeted class-specific skills.

This skill is also mandatory for a lot of content:

- Skyshard/Psijic portal/book collecting
- Node farming
- Traveling between keeps in Cyrodiil

Nobody is saying take major Gallup away from the skill. What is so hard for some of you to realize about this?

4-6 man groups can’t run this skill effectively in combat and consistently like ball groups can because in that small scale instance bar space is at a premium for keeping your offensive/defensive buffs up plus heals and etc.

ecru · October 2018

Haashhtaag wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Everyone has access to this skill so I fail to see how it can be imbalanced. ZOS only targeted class-specific skills.

This skill is also mandatory for a lot of content:

- Skyshard/Psijic portal/book collecting
- Node farming
- Traveling between keeps in Cyrodiil

Nobody is saying take major Gallup away from the skill. What is so hard for some of you to realize about this?

4-6 man groups can’t run this skill effectively in combat and consistently like ball groups can because in that small scale instance bar space is at a premium for keeping your offensive/defensive buffs up plus heals and etc.

This. It's not the mount speed or even really the run speed, it's the combination of run speed, a cc break, and cc immunity for an entire group in one ability. There is no better mobility skill in the game, and while the cost is high, you can apply it to 24 people!!!! wtf!!!!!! lmao

FrancisCrawford · October 2018

So the OP's point is that groups with 24 players are much stronger than groups with 1-6, and he's identified a single skill to nerf that would fix this problem?

del9 · October 2018

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

So the OP's point is that groups with 24 players are much stronger than groups with 1-6, and he's identified a single skill to nerf that would fix this problem?

Yes that is a very concise rendering of my point. Why didn't I just put it that way?

Nerf rapids and I can solo a 24 man a good amount of the time. Thanks ZoS!

Sandman929 · October 2018

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

So the OP's point is that groups with 24 players are much stronger than groups with 1-6, and he's identified a single skill to nerf that would fix this problem?

Obviously this is a joke, but it's not far off. What a lot of people are saying almost exactly is "Why should a group with a dedicated support role be able to provide better support than a group without one?", which to me seems ridiculous.

Chilly-McFreeze · October 2018

Sandman929 wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

So the OP's point is that groups with 24 players are much stronger than groups with 1-6, and he's identified a single skill to nerf that would fix this problem?

Obviously this is a joke, but it's not far off. What a lot of people are saying almost exactly is "Why should a group with a dedicated support role be able to provide better support than a group without one?", which to me seems ridiculous.

Point isn't that organized groups can spare a buff bot or two, you didn't see this thread before the pts for a reason. The issue is that they gutted everyone but those groups for mobility, which puts them in an even stronger position. That's really not necessary. People would rather see the mobility nerfs reverted instead but that's not how these devs roll.

Sandman929 · October 2018

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

So the OP's point is that groups with 24 players are much stronger than groups with 1-6, and he's identified a single skill to nerf that would fix this problem?

Obviously this is a joke, but it's not far off. What a lot of people are saying almost exactly is "Why should a group with a dedicated support role be able to provide better support than a group without one?", which to me seems ridiculous.

Point isn't that organized groups can spare a buff bot or two, you didn't see this thread before the pts for a reason. The issue is that they gutted everyone but those groups for mobility, which puts them in an even stronger position. That's really not necessary. People would rather see the mobility nerfs reverted instead but that's not how these devs roll.

And I agree that Rapids at least deserved a comment from developers in light of all the other mobility changes. But that's also apparently not how they roll.

del9 · October 2018

Sandman929 wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

So the OP's point is that groups with 24 players are much stronger than groups with 1-6, and he's identified a single skill to nerf that would fix this problem?

Obviously this is a joke, but it's not far off. What a lot of people are saying almost exactly is "Why should a group with a dedicated support role be able to provide better support than a group without one?", which to me seems ridiculous.

Point isn't that organized groups can spare a buff bot or two, you didn't see this thread before the pts for a reason. The issue is that they gutted everyone but those groups for mobility, which puts them in an even stronger position. That's really not necessary. People would rather see the mobility nerfs reverted instead but that's not how these devs roll.

And I agree that Rapids at least deserved a comment from developers in light of all the other mobility changes. But that's also apparently not how they roll.

I agree that Larger groups should be getting a higher efficacy rate per player by assigning roles and using group abilities. But the disparity now on Live is just too great. I think it was closer to fair before MM that non-raid pvpers needed to allocate a potion bonus and skill slot and a GCD to have similar mobility. As I quoted before the devs made it very clear they wanted players to spend MORE to keep these buffs up. But players in these group have had to make no changes, and everyone else was hit extremely hard. I don’t see how anyone could say its a fair trade off for group size.

And if there is one efficacy factor that shouldn’t increase with group size - thats mobility. One of the few advantages of having a smaller group IRL or in any other game is that they are more mobile than a large force. I know it takes a bit of organization, but it is absolutely out of balance. The amount of respurces, GCD, etc for a non-rapids botting group or player to maintain even half uptime on these buffs is just absurd currently.

But I’m done wasting my time here. If this is ever addressed, It wont be for months and I’m not sure we’ll hear any explanation from the devs about it.

del9 · January 2019

Glad to see this was addressed! I know it will be hard to observe the change on PTS but this will be good for balance in Cyrodiil when live.

del9 · January 2019

They’ve deleted the thread giving feedback on this.

A lot of players are wondering what they can use Instead of rapids to stay mobile. It seems an increase to the duration of forward momentum or shuffle could be in order to balance out the changes.