del9 wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

What some people seem to be ignoring is that ZOS wanted to reduce the ability to keep powerful buffs up 100% without a major investment. A group keeps Expedition nearly 100% with a major investment and support characters dedicated to providing it. To me that seems consistent with the changes.
Of course, they could just comment themselves and clear it all up.

Yes I would love if they would comment and clear things up. @ZOS_GinaBruno

But I disagree. 16/18 players not having to spend a single GCD, skill slot, potion bonus, or any stam or magicka whatsoever is hardly a major investment. * They don’t even have to think about it.

well if you are one of the guys using maneuver then you would change your mind xD... but anyway.. I still think my idea of how to change it, would be the best. actually that what you suggested, making it cheaper for smaller groups by a certain percentage sounded really nice. It's not like you are going to be immune to roots anyway.. people that dedicate their time to be annoying and press roots every second will still be able to root you, trust me.

The_Shadowborn wrote: »

Ok just so people realise rappids its not a 100% up time in group and yes you have to think about it.

Rapids is removed everytime you do damage or heal. In a raid situation this is extremely frequent meaning if you go want the buff for up for any significant ammount of time you'd have to stop healing and doing any damage of any sort, as no matter the ammount of spamming unless a counsious choice is made by the players not everyine will have the buff all at the same time. And when I goup falls into this situation they are vulnerable.

See this is what ZOS mean when they say investment. #1 Dedicating a player to it
#2 The group as a whol communicating when to prolong the buff

These are good points. Even accepting these, the uptime for the effort of RM is so far from in-line with the other mobility skills on PTS that they are pretty moot.

Joy_Division wrote: »

OP has a point.

It is totally unfair to gut the mobility of a solo player but keep the mobility on people who don't even use this skill (because they are in groups with people dedicated to spamming it).

Joy was this fed back to them by the class reps?

Sandman929 wrote: »

But we could go back and forth guessing at intent for awhile. Wouldn't it be nice if a Dev could just write something up about rapids, how they'd envision it being used versus how it is currently used in open world group PvP? They can't possibly be completely oblivious to ball groups.
If they think that a support role shouldn't be able to provide this kind of mobility to the group, and they change it, I'd be fine with that too.

On this, I agree with you 100%. I figure there are 4 possible options:
1. It's intended that rapids can be used, via a dedicated rapids monkey, as a way for large groups to maintain relative immunity to snares and high uptime on mobility.
2. It's not intended, but it's considered valid emergent gameplay and they are fine with it in the current context of PvP.
3. It's not intended, and they're not okay with it in the current context of PvP.
4. They're unaware of it.

I think most people arguing to keep it untouched assume the dev response is some blend of 1 and 2, and most people arguing that it needs adjustment assume the dev response is a blend of 3 and 4...

and it would all be clarified by...an actual dev response.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

OP has a point.

It is totally unfair to gut the mobility of a solo player but keep the mobility on people who don't even use this skill (because they are in groups with people dedicated to spamming it).

But it's a group utility skill, that's why it hits group members. It's unfair to plan a group composition to provide support/damage/healing? It's unfair that doing so is advantageous?

How is it "balanced" to nerf solo stuff while not doing anything to group utility skills?

The only part of solo skills they are nerfing is reducing durations. Rapids duration already has a limiting factor on its duration. So actually they are brining other abilities into line with it. I.e. balancing.

Just because someone doesn't like a group playstyle it doesn't mean that being able to play this way is negative. It would be like saying all heals should be self target only.

Additionally the argument that the group doesn't have to think about it is also completely flawed.
A group has to
1) ensure to keep this player alive whilst they focus on providing this buff amongst other things
2) output enough dmg healing and debuff removal to maintain a balance of kills to mobility.
3) provide resources to the players in group who are utilising such roles.

The argument people should be making is for a magicka root/snare removal which doesn't make you unable to act (mistform)

del9 wrote: »

Smh my head

"Shaking my head my head" ?

The_Shadowborn wrote: »

Ok just so people realise rappids its not a 100% up time in group and yes you have to think about it.

Rapids is removed everytime you do damage or heal. In a raid situation this is extremely frequent meaning if you go want the buff for up for any significant ammount of time you'd have to stop healing and doing any damage of any sort, as no matter the ammount of spamming unless a counsious choice is made by the players not everyine will have the buff all at the same time. And when I goup falls into this situation they are vulnerable.

See this is what ZOS mean when they say investment. #1 Dedicating a player to it
#2 The group as a whol communicating when to prolong the buff

This is incorrect.

Rapids is removed whenever you do direct healing or direct damage..

usmcjdking wrote: »

The_Shadowborn wrote: »

Ok just so people realise rappids its not a 100% up time in group and yes you have to think about it.

Rapids is removed everytime you do damage or heal. In a raid situation this is extremely frequent meaning if you go want the buff for up for any significant ammount of time you'd have to stop healing and doing any damage of any sort, as no matter the ammount of spamming unless a counsious choice is made by the players not everyine will have the buff all at the same time. And when I goup falls into this situation they are vulnerable.

See this is what ZOS mean when they say investment. #1 Dedicating a player to it
#2 The group as a whol communicating when to prolong the buff

This is incorrect.

Rapids is removed whenever you do direct healing or direct damage..

Yes that is true but eveyone is doing either damage or healing.
If you're a bomber and not doing dmg all with path or sap then there is a problem and this removes the rapids buff. Same goes with healers so yes maybe the "rapids bot" has it up nearly all the time but everyone else it the raid does not.

zos should start taking away things that empower large grps - they´ve taken everything solo/smallgrp players could use. time to let only the faction stack reign now.

pokrakus wrote: »

Zos is making Cyrodiil for zergs. Its not only the speed changes but also map changes in murkmire
For example enviroment next to briges on pts all Stones, some trees, not jumpable briges its all together final blow for smallscale fighters no place for kiting, no towers on briges. Nerfing single players and not ballgroups speed sources is obvious sign. Its sad.

Another good point. Disappointed in the bridge design.

I'd like to try to keep this conversation on topic of this particular skill, and not make this an us vs them/ small vs large scale thread. But your comment is relevant because I would be much less upset about it only the devs stated that this was their intention - to encourage massive-scale play and discourage solo and small play. I'd still be upset, but their silence on this overall issue is very disheartening as loyal player.