You know, I'd love to see the VMA 2h be useful again. Merciless charge is like the weakest dot in the game, even if it wasn't broken. Ticks for near what the poisoned status effect ticks for.

It appears they don't play on adding stat lines back to all the master class weapons either, which is pretty infuriating considering the new weapons get them.

Cries wrote: »

Virulent shot gets to ignore mitigation because it is a bleed, the same as every other intended bleed. Merciless charge being bugged is what is making it inferior, not that the new stuff is better. Next patch stam will slot gap-closers again so you may see some more vMA 2H's being used.

@Cries

• Razor Shot: This item set now deals 50% of Scattershot’s damage as poison instead of 40% as a bleed.

So this has been reverted? I didn‘t access pts and was assuming.

Cries wrote: »

Virulent shot gets to ignore mitigation because it is a bleed, the same as every other intended bleed. Merciless charge being bugged is what is making it inferior, not that the new stuff is better. Next patch stam will slot gap-closers again so you may see some more vMA 2H's being used.

Doubt it. The meta alternatives to this weapon are way too strong.(the new blackrose 2h and bow, master dw, master bow, master SnB, just to name a few).

And since 3 piece jewelry has fallen out of meta, I don't think vMA 2h will ever get its popularity back.

Even when this weapon was popular it was due to the extra weapon damage and people ran poisons with it anyways.

Now I'm looking at black rose 2h with its very strong 1 piece bonus, I'm pretty sure I will prefer this one over vMA, and I also will slot a gapcloser for the record.

@ZOS_Gilliam

I‘ve seen you take notice of the critical strike issue in another thread. Maybe this gets your attention too.

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Furthermore, the Virulent Shot set was noted to ignore mitigation specifically to inform players that the intent for many of our sets and abilities based on a % of previously dealt damage are not affected by mitigation; since the initial hit in which this ability is derived from will have already been mitigated. We are also currently in the process of better defining this ruleset and will be making a pass on abilities with similar functionality to make them fit more coherently with it, so there is less confusion and inconsistencies moving forward.

I think damage not affected by mitigation (except bleed) bring more confusion and inconsistencies. Maybe you will just raise damage of sets and abilities based on a % of previously dealt damage, considering average mitigation. Because, for example, mitigation can change during the time of DoT.
Now only bleed ignore mitigation and this what i call "less confusion and inconsistency".

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Greetings! Just a heads up that both of the issues mentioned with Merciless Charge’s damage over time being dodgeable and blockable will be fixed in a future update.

Furthermore, the Virulent Shot set was noted to ignore mitigation specifically to inform players that the intent for many of our sets and abilities based on a % of previously dealt damage are not affected by mitigation; since the initial hit in which this ability is derived from will have already been mitigated. We are also currently in the process of better defining this ruleset and will be making a pass on abilities with similar functionality to make them fit more coherently with it, so there is less confusion and inconsistencies moving forward.

All that being said, once these changes go live for the Merciless Charge set in particular; we are always monitoring feedback and are happy to make future adjustments as things arise.

first time ive seen you with a zos logo, it suits you

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Greetings! Just a heads up that both of the issues mentioned with Merciless Charge’s damage over time being dodgeable and blockable will be fixed in a future update.

Furthermore, the Virulent Shot set was noted to ignore mitigation specifically to inform players that the intent for many of our sets and abilities based on a % of previously dealt damage are not affected by mitigation; since the initial hit in which this ability is derived from will have already been mitigated. We are also currently in the process of better defining this ruleset and will be making a pass on abilities with similar functionality to make them fit more coherently with it, so there is less confusion and inconsistencies moving forward.

All that being said, once these changes go live for the Merciless Charge set in particular; we are always monitoring feedback and are happy to make future adjustments as things arise.

@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert

So basically all sets and abilities like that are gonna be like oblivion damage? The thing I don't like about the way Virulent Shot works right now is that it acts just like Oblivion damage, BUT it can be buffed and has the ability to proc a secondary effect. The Morag Tong 5p set increases the damage of Virulent shot and so does Minor Vulnerability. Those 2 are debuffs on the target and so far I have yet to find anything on the casters side that buffs just Virulent Shot above the 50% from the Scatter Shots original, obviously boosting the base Scatter shot will increase it but that is not what I was looking for.

Again, Morag Tong and Minor Vulnerability buffs Virulent Shot and it has a chance to proc the Poison Secondary effect, the Poison DoT, and since Virulent shot is NOT a DoT it has a higher chance to proc it than an actual DoT. This basically makes Virulent Shots Poison damage stronger than Oblivion damage. If you want sets and abilities like this to act like oblivion damage than they should be oblivion damage, cause anything but that and pure physical/magic damage can and will be buffed and trigger secondary effects, and even then I'm pretty sure some things like Minor Vulnerability will still buff the damage of them. Make it Oblivion damage or make it susceptible to mitigation and buff its base damage to adjust for the mitigation.

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert

So basically all sets and abilities like that are gonna be like oblivion damage? The thing I don't like about the way Virulent Shot works right now is that it acts just like Oblivion damage, BUT it can be buffed and has the ability to proc a secondary effect. The Morag Tong 5p set increases the damage of Virulent shot and so does Minor Vulnerability. Those 2 are debuffs on the target and so far I have yet to find anything on the casters side that buffs just Virulent Shot above the 50% from the Scatter Shots original, obviously boosting the base Scatter shot will increase it but that is not what I was looking for.

Again, Morag Tong and Minor Vulnerability buffs Virulent Shot and it has a chance to proc the Poison Secondary effect, the Poison DoT, and since Virulent shot is NOT a DoT it has a higher chance to proc it than an actual DoT. This basically makes Virulent Shots Poison damage stronger than Oblivion damage. If you want sets and abilities like this to act like oblivion damage than they should be oblivion damage, cause anything but that and pure physical/magic damage can and will be buffed and trigger secondary effects, and even then I'm pretty sure some things like Minor Vulnerability will still buff the damage of them. Make it Oblivion damage or make it susceptible to mitigation and buff its base damage to adjust for the mitigation.

Incorrect, Virulent Shot will still be mitigated by Champion points and other % reductions, but will bypass the targets’ Physical Resistance for the time being. Item sets in general will continue to obey traditional rule sets of their specific parameters (i.e an Oblivion set will properly ignore all mitigation, while a Flame set will be reduced by Spell Resistance, etc). However, item sets that deal damage based off a percent of another attack that can already be mitigated, will be given the ability to bypass mitigation of further targets. If they were unable to do so, they would be hit multiple times from mitigation; causing them to become fractions of fractions and thus making balance difficult due to high variability in player choice.

Keep in mind, as I mentioned previously in the post above, we are currently in the process of better defining this rule set for abilities and sets that derive their damage on a previous attack of damage that could have been reduced. Our intent is that abilities will not double dip with offensive or defensive qualities, so that they are not stronger or weaker than they should be. The team will be posting with more details to better communicate this ruleset once it has been established and we make a pass on all similar functionalities that fall into that category.

@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert

From the PTS Patch Notes v4.2.3
"Razor Shot: The damage done from this Item Set will now ignore mitigation, and its name has been changed to Virulent Shot."

Can we please stop using the word "Mitigation" when we mean "Resistance" if it does indeed mean resistance. Even you did this just now

"However, item sets that deal damage based off a percent of another attack that can already be mitigated, will be given the ability to bypass mitigation of further targets."

What you meant to say was "that it will be given the ability to bybass resistance of further targets" I am assuming?

OK, so I did actually test this a bit more today with the help of @Tasear, like you said, resistance was the only thing that it bypassed. Minor Maim, Minor Protection and CP all lowered the damage done by Virulent Shot. However, there were inconsistencies, applying Minor Protection AFTER the scatter shot would lower the damage done by Virulent shot, we tested this with circle of protection, going in and out of it would turn the mitigation on and off properly. This however was not the case for Minor Maim, if applied after the scatter shot than it did nothing, no reduction what so ever, but if it was applied before the scatter shot it would reduce not only the scatter shot making the virulent shot weaker but would hit the virulent shot again lowering it even more.

You say that the intention is to not have abilities double dip with offensive or defensive qualities, but its doing so right now, and unfairly so. Defensive Champion Points and other forms of mitigation like Minor Maim and Protection will all double dip with Virulent shot, it lowers the original Scatter shot lowering the base of the Virulent shot and then it lowers the Virulent shot even further. This would be ok if it wasn't for the fact that Offensive Champion Points do NOT increase Virulent Shots damage, neither does Minor Beserk, so far only debuffs applied to the target will strengthen it. Why change one and not the other? You mentioned before about having less confusion and inconsistencies, well at the moment its very inconsistent. So instead of it being a stronger version of Oblivion damage like I had previously feared its a weaker version of bleed, that can't be buffed by CP or other buffs but still gets mitigated excluding resistance just like bleed(though obviously it still has the poison DoT as a perk). This needs a change and it needs one that makes sense from the way the game currently works, changing all of this now, 4 years down the line is just gonna bring confusion especially among those that are casual about the game and aren't as knowledgeable about the games core mechanics, cause lets be honest things are very poorly explained and the tutorial is severely lacking. Either make it Oblivion Damage work with the rule set made for that, a well known and established one. Or make it Bleed and work within its rule set, another well know and established one.

As well I want to bring up another big issue, currently you can BLOCK Virulent Shot, and I don't mean the scatter shot, you can actually block the Virulent Shots Damage. This was tested with having block up during the Scatter Shot and blocking a few ticks into the Virulent Shot, both scenarios applied the 50% damage mitigation to the Virulent Shot. This brings up a problem with that its not a DoT, its Direct Damage, why is that? Virulent Shot is 50% of the applied damage from Scatter Shot, but its every 2s, and just like the Scamp and Blade Cloak, it means its not a Damage over Time ability its a Direct Damage ability, why oh why is this a thing? Either recode it to be that any Damage over Time, be it every 0.5s, 1s, 2s or even every 3s should still be treated as a Damage over Time ability. That or rescale it all to be every 1s, just have it be 25% of the damage but have it tick every second, same total damage just applied differently. I mean blocking Virulent Shot would be like blocking the DoT portion of Poison Injection, it doesn't make any sense, I am hoping this is a Bug and treated as such and fixed before live.

Last point, Merciless Charge should also just be a bleed, all of this confusion would have been avoided if both of these sets were bleeds.

Thogard wrote: »

I think you guys are having trouble understanding what Gilliam is saying.

Let’s say that you have two targets, X and Y.
You hit target X with an attack that does 1000 dmg before mitigation.
Due to X’s mitigation, they end up taking 700 dmg.

The attack also has an effect that says “hits another nearby target for 50% of the dmg done to player X.

Player Y is standing by. Player Y gets hit for 50% of the dmg that player X got hit for, which is 50% of 700 which is 350.

Player Y will not get to mitigate the 350 dmg. This is because it is based off of the dmg received by player X, and therefore already mitigated by player X’s resistances.

It might be simpler to say that from a net effect standpoint, the dmg doesn’t bypass mitigation so much as it just uses the mitigation of the original target rather than the splash dmg recipient.

@ZOS_Gilliam does this mean you guys will be looking at the inverse - guard - as well?

That makes sense, and fits what Gilliam says the goal is: "item sets that deal damage based off a percent of another attack that can already be mitigated, will be given the ability to bypass mitigation of further targets." The problem is that Gilliam also explicitly says Virulent Shot is intended not to work that way.

Virulent Shot deals 50% of Scattershot's original damage. Scattershot will be mitigated by physical resistance, but Virulent will not be -- that matches up with the way you're explaining it. Both Scattershot and Virulent will be mitigated by CP and Minor/Major Protection -- so Scattershot does X base damage, which is reduced by physical resistance, Hardy, Ironclad, and Minor/Major Protection, yielding a value of X(0.5) for Virulent. Based on the way you and Gilliam are explaining it, you would expect Virulent's X(0.5) damage not to be further reduced by Hardy, Ironclad, or Minor/Major Protection -- but it is. It's as though the reasoning you and Gilliam lay out for wanting to avoid double-mitigation is being applied to physical resistance but not to any other sources of mitigation.

Thogard wrote: »

@ZOS_Gilliam does this mean you guys will be looking at the inverse - guard - as well?

Can we please look at Guard more, please:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/431078/guard-feedback-thread#latest

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Incorrect, Virulent Shot will still be mitigated by Champion points and other % reductions, but will bypass the targets’ Physical Resistance for the time being. Item sets in general will continue to obey traditional rule sets of their specific parameters (i.e an Oblivion set will properly ignore all mitigation, while a Flame set will be reduced by Spell Resistance, etc). However, item sets that deal damage based off a percent of another attack that can already be mitigated, will be given the ability to bypass mitigation of further targets. If they were unable to do so, they would be hit multiple times from mitigation; causing them to become fractions of fractions and thus making balance difficult due to high variability in player choice.

Keep in mind, as I mentioned previously in the post above, we are currently in the process of better defining this rule set for abilities and sets that derive their damage on a previous attack of damage that could have been reduced. Our intent is that abilities will not double dip with offensive or defensive qualities, so that they are not stronger or weaker than they should be. The team will be posting with more details to better communicate this ruleset once it has been established and we make a pass on all similar functionalities that fall into that category.

I agree with some posts above, that the problem with Virulent Shot, Merciless Charge and similar skills, that they don't count as DoTs. This bring confusion and inconsistencies that you try to avoid.
For example, what fundamental difference with Scatter Shot + Virulent Shot and Searing Strike. Both have initial direct damage and when damage over time applied. For Searing Strike, DoT damage also can be written as a percentage: "that deals 267% of your initial attack for 8.5 seconds".
So i don't understand why you need to make some subcategory of DoTs.
And from point of "realism and sense" Merciless Charge is physical damage over time after hard hit, and it need source of damage: broken bones, bleed(internal maybe) or something, not just physical damage, what does this mean from "realism and sense". So you need just make it regular bleed DoT and that's it.

Thogard wrote: »

I think you guys are having trouble understanding what Gilliam is saying.
It might be simpler to say that from a net effect standpoint, the dmg doesn’t bypass mitigation so much as it just uses the mitigation of the original target rather than the splash dmg recipient.

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

However, item sets that deal damage based off a percent of another attack that can already be mitigated, will be given the ability to bypass mitigation of further targets.

If we considering cases with skills with multiple targets, for example, fireball, with one initial direct damage target and several targets suffering DoT after, then when secondary targets will take damage based on initial hit then it will cause strange/unbalanced situatins, for example, our fireball initially hit breton dragon kinght with high spell resistance, and secondary DoT will applied at vampire standing near him, so vampire instead of getting increased fire damage will get redused damage, because DoT damage was already mitigated by breton dragon knight or vice versa targets scenario. So, in this case, applying separate "normal" DoT at each target will be more balanced and less confusing.

Virulent Shot

2: Scatter Shot applies a bleed after a delay that deals 40% of your initial attack every 2 seconds for 4 seconds. The duration increases if you are further away from your target to a maximum of 12 seconds.


AWE YEAH! Its a bleed now!

Sad to not see a mention on any of the problems it and Merciless Charge had where it can be blocked and dodged, guess we will just have to test and see if it was changed. Might just have been missed from the notes.

@paulsimonps

Oh boy, first I was glad for Virulent Shot and was about to make a post to give u props to figure and call the issue out.

Now I‘m almost certain they introduced it with the issues of being block-/dodgeable.

That there is no further word about Merciless Charge leaves me pretty bummed too. I didn‘t log in to test yet but will clarify it later. So there‘s that slim chance that this got silently fixed...