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Dear ZoS please reconsider the bear nerf

MooseKnuckles88
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I really like most of the changes that help out the warden class in the Murkmire update. The added changes to animal companions are great, all except the rather massive nerf to the bear. A whopping 30% dmg reduction on the bears dmg.

Do you not think that this is a bit much? In your Sept. 25th meeting notes you openly admitted that the dmg was lower than expectations even. I know the bear has to be nerfed to some extent but 30% seems a bit excessive. In my honest opinion, I feel like a max of a 15% nerf is more than sufficient for a nerf and see how that goes before slapping a rather substantial nerf right off the bat. In the initial Murkmire patch change there was no explanation or comments for the nerf. In the second Murkmire class change notes, again there was nothing said or stated about the reasoning for a significant change.

To help ease my mind and maybe give some closure to myself and others who may feel the same way, I'd love some feedback about why such a change is going into effect.
  • MLGProPlayer
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    ZOS has no idea what they're doing.

    Even with the bear, magicka warden is still tied for the lowest DPS in the game. But that means their DPS will go down in actual content where the AI runs into pathing issues and deals less DPS. It also can't be used in all content.

    Discarding the bear in favour of another ultimate is still not viable. Madgden DPS drops even further without the bear (even with all the buffs to passives). The bear is also the only way to proc the Master Architect 5pc bonus. This is the ONLY group utility a magicka warden provides (sad, I know).

    Edited by MLGProPlayer on September 30, 2018 7:23PM
  • Zathras
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    I'd love some feedback about why such a change is going into effect.

    Does the Warden class even have a rep? I'm just wondering if they were privy to discussions, and could shed some light on why they thought the better choice of action is to destroy the class's iconic ability.
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  • Glurin
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    To help ease my mind and maybe give some closure to myself and others who may feel the same way, I'd love some feedback about why such a change is going into effect.

    They nerfed the bear so that they can buff other things, bringing warden base damage up and reducing the DPS gap between using the bear and using some other ultimate, which in turn makes the warden less reliant on the bear.

    You can argue all day long whether or not that is good or bad, but that's the reasoning behind the nerf.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."
  • MLGProPlayer
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    Glurin wrote: »
    To help ease my mind and maybe give some closure to myself and others who may feel the same way, I'd love some feedback about why such a change is going into effect.

    They nerfed the bear so that they can buff other things, bringing warden base damage up and reducing the DPS gap between using the bear and using some other ultimate, which in turn makes the warden less reliant on the bear.

    You can argue all day long whether or not that is good or bad, but that's the reasoning behind the nerf.

    The problem is that destro ultimate builds still aren't even close to competitive with other classes (although they are closer than before). The bear is the only way to hit competitive DPS, and just barely at that, on a static targer dummy.

    Their reasoning is irrelevant if it doesn't achieve the intended goal.
    Edited by MLGProPlayer on September 30, 2018 8:22PM
  • Glurin
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    Glurin wrote: »
    To help ease my mind and maybe give some closure to myself and others who may feel the same way, I'd love some feedback about why such a change is going into effect.

    They nerfed the bear so that they can buff other things, bringing warden base damage up and reducing the DPS gap between using the bear and using some other ultimate, which in turn makes the warden less reliant on the bear.

    You can argue all day long whether or not that is good or bad, but that's the reasoning behind the nerf.

    The problem is that destro ultimate builds still aren't even close to competitive with other classes. The bear is the only way to hit competitive DPS, and just barely at that, on a static targer dummy.

    Oh it's more than that. Those buffs that were mentioned? You pretty much have to just slot a bunch of the animal skills to see them.

    Yeah.....

    JVEDtqD.jpg
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."
  • rumple9
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    You get more DPS with Northern Storm slotted than the bear anyway (extra 8% magicka)
  • MLGProPlayer
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    rumple9 wrote: »
    You get more DPS with Northern Storm slotted than the bear anyway (extra 8% magicka)

    No you don't.

    - Northern Storm doesn't deal a lot of damage
    - It's a melee range ability while the warden is a ranged DPS
    - You're giving up +3% DPS for that +8% max magicka
    Edited by MLGProPlayer on October 1, 2018 1:35AM
  • MLGProPlayer
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    Glurin wrote: »
    Glurin wrote: »
    To help ease my mind and maybe give some closure to myself and others who may feel the same way, I'd love some feedback about why such a change is going into effect.

    They nerfed the bear so that they can buff other things, bringing warden base damage up and reducing the DPS gap between using the bear and using some other ultimate, which in turn makes the warden less reliant on the bear.

    You can argue all day long whether or not that is good or bad, but that's the reasoning behind the nerf.

    The problem is that destro ultimate builds still aren't even close to competitive with other classes. The bear is the only way to hit competitive DPS, and just barely at that, on a static targer dummy.

    Oh it's more than that. Those buffs that were mentioned? You pretty much have to just slot a bunch of the animal skills to see them.

    Yeah.....

    JVEDtqD.jpg

    What are you even on about?
  • zTrok
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    rumple9 wrote: »
    You get more DPS with Northern Storm slotted than the bear anyway (extra 8% magicka)

    Bear still does 3-4k more dps than Northern Storm + Destro on a 6mil on Pts.
  • Glurin
    Glurin
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    Glurin wrote: »
    Glurin wrote: »
    To help ease my mind and maybe give some closure to myself and others who may feel the same way, I'd love some feedback about why such a change is going into effect.

    They nerfed the bear so that they can buff other things, bringing warden base damage up and reducing the DPS gap between using the bear and using some other ultimate, which in turn makes the warden less reliant on the bear.

    You can argue all day long whether or not that is good or bad, but that's the reasoning behind the nerf.

    The problem is that destro ultimate builds still aren't even close to competitive with other classes. The bear is the only way to hit competitive DPS, and just barely at that, on a static targer dummy.

    Oh it's more than that. Those buffs that were mentioned? You pretty much have to just slot a bunch of the animal skills to see them.

    Yeah.....

    JVEDtqD.jpg

    What are you even on about?

    Did you even read the thread?
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."
  • Anhedonie
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    I think they should nerf it by 100%. That way, we will get a bit flexibility. Dps will remain bad though. But hey, at least you don't have to deal with bear stupid AI.


    Hey, ZOS, are you hiring? I think the same way you guys do. Can we be friends please?
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  • Zardayne
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    ZOS has no idea what they're doing.

    Even with the bear, magicka warden is still tied for the lowest DPS in the game. But that means their DPS will go down in actual content where the AI runs into pathing issues and deals less DPS. It also can't be used in all content.

    Discarding the bear in favour of another ultimate is still not viable. Madgden DPS drops even further without the bear (even with all the buffs to passives). The bear is also the only way to proc the Master Architect 5pc bonus. This is the ONLY group utility a magicka warden provides (sad, I know).

    I'd agree with your opening sentence.
  • abigfishy
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    The simple solution to make Warden viable in group content is to give them their own unique and useful buff. For example perhaps they provide "Major Harmony" adding 20% to the resources all grouped players get back from major attacks and "Major Agility" giving all group members a 10% boost to dodge chance. Then every raid ever would want at least one Warden to be a part of the group.

    Don't get hung up on the actual abilities they are just random thoughts.

    Can you imagine a day in zone chat when you read a message like, "nCR need 3DPS 1 Heals and 1 Warden."
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  • WrathOfInnos
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    I agree with the intent of the change, to make Warden DPS less dependent on the bear. However the rest of the Warden’s toolkit was not buffed nearly enough to make up for this 30% nerf to the bear.
  • Raammzzaa
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    We need to ask the sorcs to help us! If we can get them crying, posting a gazillion threads, and threatening to quit the game over the nerf to our bear like they did over their shields then maybe ZOS will scrap the change. ;)
  • Ermiq
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    Although I don't like the nerf, I'm glad ZOS started to make warden less dependant on the bear.
    The bear is awful. It annoys me, it goes into my character so the character turns into some kind of centaur with bear body, it steps onto the dead bodies and lootable objects so the "Press E to interact" doesn't pop up.
    One of the two of us definitely has gone mad. It only remains to define whether this one is the whole world or just me.

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  • max_only
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    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/438173/smokey-the-bear-needs-your-help

    I tried to get the Sorc lobby on our side, but they’re rather self absorbed.

    Here is the official Zos answer and it’s not good enough imho.
    We reduced the damage of bear so we could buff the base damage of Wardens; the overall DPS should be within 1-2% of what it was before due to the buff of Advanced Species. This means anyone who doesn't use the bear will see less of a DPS loss.

    From this thread https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/435756/why-nerfing-the-bear
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  • IZZEFlameLash
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    Poor bears, first, plagued by bad AI. Now nerf. Truly a sad day indeed.
    Imperials, the one and true masters of all mortal races of Tamriel
  • shaielzafine
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    The 30% bear nerf is ridiculous. It's already buggy and can't be brought to all end game content because it's a pet. But when you can bring it in group, you can wear a major Slayer set and actually be useful to the team. With the changes, Magden dps is still lower than other classes on pts parses, even with the other buffs like sustain buffs given. I find it odd that they made Minor Toughness a warden only buff now (removed from Warhorn) but warden dps cannot give that buff in group (you need to heal to proc it). It seems they just don't know what to do with Wardens. Maybe they will nerf more things again "to make Warden more relevant" in the future.
  • MooseKnuckles88
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    Magdens rely too heavily on the bear with the tools in their kit which I've never really liked that part but the alternative was less dps without the bear, so I dealt with it.

    The devs could fix some of the bear missing dps by just putting in more dmg in fetcher infection that way stamdens aren't buffed even further, as it is fetcher infection cost was increased making stamdens even further from really using that skill. Or put more dmg in winters revenge.

    I like the idea that they are trying to make wardens less bear dependent, but do make an EVEN SPLIT in terms of dps between now AND Murkmire at the least especially since magdens in particular have been on the bottom for ever. Like others have said time and time again the general eso culture says no pets for trials regardless of what ZoS says about team leader judgement. As for wardens, until the bear can provide legit undeniable usage in a group setting the bear will have to stay home to watch the big game.
    Edited by MooseKnuckles88 on October 1, 2018 12:03PM
  • DanteYoda
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    Glurin wrote: »
    To help ease my mind and maybe give some closure to myself and others who may feel the same way, I'd love some feedback about why such a change is going into effect.

    They nerfed the bear so that they can buff other things, bringing warden base damage up and reducing the DPS gap between using the bear and using some other ultimate, which in turn makes the warden less reliant on the bear.

    You can argue all day long whether or not that is good or bad, but that's the reasoning behind the nerf.

    Not seeing any buffs to ice magic to offload those awesome bear nerfs?

    Oh and obligatory meme

    shark-laser-nerfbear.jpg
    Edited by DanteYoda on October 1, 2018 1:57PM
  • Donny_Vito
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    Thank goodness. Those bears are super annoying in BGs. Hopefully we see less of them now.
  • Tasear
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    I agree with the intent of the change, to make Warden DPS less dependent on the bear. However the rest of the Warden’s toolkit was not buffed nearly enough to make up for this 30% nerf to the bear.

    We asked about this during the meeting, but what kind dps are you guys getting on pts?
  • What_In_Tarnation
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    zTrok wrote: »
    rumple9 wrote: »
    You get more DPS with Northern Storm slotted than the bear anyway (extra 8% magicka)

    Bear still does 3-4k more dps than Northern Storm + Destro on a 6mil on Pts.

    Don't say that, it will getting worse.
    DGLL99c.jpg
  • Arciris
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    Glurin wrote: »
    Glurin wrote: »
    To help ease my mind and maybe give some closure to myself and others who may feel the same way, I'd love some feedback about why such a change is going into effect.

    They nerfed the bear so that they can buff other things, bringing warden base damage up and reducing the DPS gap between using the bear and using some other ultimate, which in turn makes the warden less reliant on the bear.

    You can argue all day long whether or not that is good or bad, but that's the reasoning behind the nerf.

    The problem is that destro ultimate builds still aren't even close to competitive with other classes. The bear is the only way to hit competitive DPS, and just barely at that, on a static targer dummy.

    Oh it's more than that. Those buffs that were mentioned? You pretty much have to just slot a bunch of the animal skills to see them.

    Yeah.....

    JVEDtqD.jpg

    Septikal Bear, is septikal (I wish there was big cats skins though, at least, I used to wish that when I was planning on going feral Guardian)

    And yes, most of the buff given to warden requires slotting Animal Companion abilities (now +3% damage done from 2% for each)
  • MooseKnuckles88
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    Arciris wrote: »
    Glurin wrote: »
    Glurin wrote: »
    To help ease my mind and maybe give some closure to myself and others who may feel the same way, I'd love some feedback about why such a change is going into effect.

    They nerfed the bear so that they can buff other things, bringing warden base damage up and reducing the DPS gap between using the bear and using some other ultimate, which in turn makes the warden less reliant on the bear.

    You can argue all day long whether or not that is good or bad, but that's the reasoning behind the nerf.

    The problem is that destro ultimate builds still aren't even close to competitive with other classes. The bear is the only way to hit competitive DPS, and just barely at that, on a static targer dummy.

    Oh it's more than that. Those buffs that were mentioned? You pretty much have to just slot a bunch of the animal skills to see them.

    Yeah.....

    JVEDtqD.jpg

    Septikal Bear, is septikal (I wish there was big cats skins though, at least, I used to wish that when I was planning on going feral Guardian)

    And yes, most of the buff given to warden requires slotting Animal Companion abilities (now +3% damage done from 2% for each)

    I believe that the devs are renaming Feral Guardian to Sterile Guardian after Murkmire.
  • Raammzzaa
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    The bear still looks really cool though, am I right?! Yogi is always on my bar whenever I’m passing through Riften, or for naked fishing. ;)
  • Xoelarasizerer
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    All ZoS need to do in my books is put the Bear and Sorc Combat Pets on a single skill bar to work and not make them both bars mandatory to keep up, exactly like Mend Wounds/Mend Spirit/Symbiosis.
    Edited by Xoelarasizerer on October 1, 2018 4:15PM
  • Arciris
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    It's funny how some people accepted the "to make Warden less reliant on the Bear for dps" argument as something totally normal.

    The Bear is the most iconic skill of the Warden Even on promo trailers we don't see a Warden without the Bear. It is a class defining skill (for good or for bad), it is part of the Warden class Identity.

    If we apply the same argument to other classes it looks like:

    Cloak nerf to 1 second duration: to make the Nightblade less reliant on Invisibility for survival. This was done to give Nightblades 10% damage reduction from single target abilities (fictional scenario)

    BoL cast time 2 seconds: to make the Templar less reliant on Rushed ceremony for emergency heals. This was done to increase Templar healing received by 2% for each Restoring Spirit abilities slotted (fictional scenario)

    3º Bar Overload removal: to make the Sorcerer Summoner less reliant on Overload. This was done to reduce the cost of the summons special abilities. (fictio...oh, wait....)
  • MooseKnuckles88
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    I agree the initial image of the warden was the iconic bear, I actually do like the bear.
    What I don't like about the bear is how dps reliant wardens are on the bear. In my honest opinion, the bear should not be 100% dps oriented, it should offer buffs or debuffs to help make the warden stronger in a fight, not do the fight for the warden. If the devs let the bear be the provider for minor toughness, then I predict a huge out cry for bears, but since the bear are exclusively dps oriented then it'll just be a back and forth between buff or nerf dps circle.

    If going through with bears getting slapped 30% dps reduction then consider:

    +Add % dps to bear execute
    +Add dps to swarm
    +Add dps to Impaling Shards
    +Add % dps to piercing cold passive

    All these (except bear execute) would buff magden and not really stamden.

    Or leave everything as is and just reduce bear dps by 15% instead of 30%.

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