Waffennacht wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Can’t have a serious discussion about this if you don’t include every factor associated with mag and stam.
While stam has high damage, a strong hot, the best ult across the board, more chances to sprint /roll dodge, more sustain to do both, mobility, easier sustain tools to recover stam or keep stam up etc. magic offers utility, the best defensive sets in the game, zerg busting, the best group synergy, powerful shields, decent hots, probably the best at warding off a zerg while also being the best zergers etc.
It’s not an easy comparison because you really shouldn’t compare the two. Can’t even balance both variations the same way.
You make a good post.
I would say there is are significant trade offs for all forms of builds.
Personally I do not feel Magicka has or will have an advantage when will building for survivability/damage over stamina in PvP; this would be my biggest take away from me. My reasons listed in the OP
Edit: even when incorporating the other aspects of utility brought by both forms (i.e. block, set availability, weapon selection etc)
CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Waffennacht wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Can’t have a serious discussion about this if you don’t include every factor associated with mag and stam.
While stam has high damage, a strong hot, the best ult across the board, more chances to sprint /roll dodge, more sustain to do both, mobility, easier sustain tools to recover stam or keep stam up etc. magic offers utility, the best defensive sets in the game, zerg busting, the best group synergy, powerful shields, decent hots, probably the best at warding off a zerg while also being the best zergers etc.
It’s not an easy comparison because you really shouldn’t compare the two. Can’t even balance both variations the same way.
You make a good post.
I would say there is are significant trade offs for all forms of builds.
Personally I do not feel Magicka has or will have an advantage when will building for survivability/damage over stamina in PvP; this would be my biggest take away from me. My reasons listed in the OP
Edit: even when incorporating the other aspects of utility brought by both forms (i.e. block, set availability, weapon selection etc)
When the amount of enemies increase Magicka wins in that category, when the numbers aren’t overwhelming stam wins.
If I had to bet on who would have a better chance at wiping a group 4 v 20 with just their variations choosing from magdk, magplar, magsorc & magblade vs their counter parts in the same scenario I’d choose the mag builds, even more so now that everyone has access to major expedition.
CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Waffennacht wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Can’t have a serious discussion about this if you don’t include every factor associated with mag and stam.
While stam has high damage, a strong hot, the best ult across the board, more chances to sprint /roll dodge, more sustain to do both, mobility, easier sustain tools to recover stam or keep stam up etc. magic offers utility, the best defensive sets in the game, zerg busting, the best group synergy, powerful shields, decent hots, probably the best at warding off a zerg while also being the best zergers etc.
It’s not an easy comparison because you really shouldn’t compare the two. Can’t even balance both variations the same way.
You make a good post.
I would say there is are significant trade offs for all forms of builds.
Personally I do not feel Magicka has or will have an advantage when will building for survivability/damage over stamina in PvP; this would be my biggest take away from me. My reasons listed in the OP
Edit: even when incorporating the other aspects of utility brought by both forms (i.e. block, set availability, weapon selection etc)
When the amount of enemies increase Magicka wins in that category, when the numbers aren’t overwhelming stam wins.
If I had to bet on who would have a better chance at wiping a group 4 v 20 with just their variations choosing from magdk, magplar, magsorc & magblade vs their counter parts in the same scenario I’d choose the mag builds, even more so now that everyone has access to major expedition.
You left out magden and their counterpart, the stamden, which several guilds, at least on PC NA, have been running 10-16 stamdens in their raids shalk dawnbreaking and steel nadoing everything into oblivion. At this point destro bombers are a rare sight.
grannas211 wrote: »Most people parroting this play primarily stamina toons and they don’t want the fact that stamina is just flat out better in PvP to be known by everyone.
Waffennacht wrote: »It is definitely easier for me to perform well on a Stam character than a mag; and I've played mag almost exclusively for the first 2 years
TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »Waffennacht wrote: »It is definitely easier for me to perform well on a Stam character than a mag; and I've played mag almost exclusively for the first 2 years
IMHO Stamina is easier to "get" as you can Break Free more readily, Dodge Roll more readily, and inherently have more mobility than Magicka in PvP...
That said, I think Magicka is the most powerful at the very top tiers at current (again, IMHO)...
Nowadays, the only class that can beat my Magicka Templar 1v1 is a well built, well played, Magicka Nightblade...
No Stamina build beats me; at best a Warden or Stamblade can stalemate me...
This is going to change assuming the PTS changes stay as is...
I am hungrily awaiting the day when I can Crit Shield Stackers; those Magicka Nightblades who can beat me now are doomed once their Shield Stacking Spam goes away......
I agree with the gist of your post, but on this point we'd want to do a precise survey. Here's an imprecise one:Waffennacht wrote: »Stacking max resource stat is less efficient when dealing damage than stacking damage stat - even more so when you consider the number of damage modifiers vs number of max resource modifiers.
Magicka has a higher starting point than spell damage. That's why the percentage bonuses work so well. It's really easy to have at least 30K magicka and you'll push it to 50K without Mage mundus and with all Hakeijo, on NB and warden, with a basic Shackle / Necro / Domihaus / Mag Monster setup. Tell me how to push Spell Damage that far instead. You use a staff. Getting to 2K (unbuffed) already requires an investment in spell damage, whereas 2H and DW have a higher starting point for weapon damage and get the 12% from medium (if using that).Waffennacht wrote: »Real quick, didn't make it too far, no sorc doesn't have a max mag modifier in it's class skills
It's a little bit of a moot discussion, since everything will change next patch. You may well be wearing the magicka Bone Pirate set + Spell Strategist. You may be wearing 1x Chudan / 1x Pirate on top of that, and maybe some Protective. You'll only stack magicka so your shields reach cap. You will care more about health. You might even wear Impregnable.
Thanks!It's a little bit of a moot discussion, since everything will change next patch. You may well be wearing the magicka Bone Pirate set + Spell Strategist. You may be wearing 1x Chudan / 1x Pirate on top of that, and maybe some Protective. You'll only stack magicka so your shields reach cap. You will care more about health. You might even wear Impregnable.
Love that set thread you posted/made as well!
Magicka has a higher starting point than spell damage. That's why the percentage bonuses work so well. It's really easy to have at least 30K magicka and you'll push it to 50K without Mage mundus and with all Hakeijo, on NB and warden, with a basic Shackle / Necro / Domihaus / Mag Monster setup. Tell me how to push Spell Damage that far instead. You use a staff. Getting to 2K (unbuffed) already requires an investment in spell damage, whereas 2H and DW have a higher starting point for weapon damage and get the 12% from medium (if using that).Waffennacht wrote: »Real quick, didn't make it too far, no sorc doesn't have a max mag modifier in it's class skills
Thanks!It's a little bit of a moot discussion, since everything will change next patch. You may well be wearing the magicka Bone Pirate set + Spell Strategist. You may be wearing 1x Chudan / 1x Pirate on top of that, and maybe some Protective. You'll only stack magicka so your shields reach cap. You will care more about health. You might even wear Impregnable.
Love that set thread you posted/made as well!
There is one caveat with that thread. It omits classifying drinks. For example, while Shacklebreaker gives you good value, it is typically used with Witchmother's Potent Brew. I haven't done a precise food calculation, but from memory:
Ghastly Eye Bowl: 7
Witchmother's Potent Brew: 8
Longfin Pasty and Melon Sauce: 11
In other words, tri-stat food is by far the most efficient food out of those three - if you want all the stats. In my view there are some distinctly different ways of building. One is something like:
Witchmother's Potent Brew + Shacklebreaker + A.N.Other + all Hakeijo enchants
The other is something like:
Tri-stat food + Lich or Seducer + A.N.Other + probably only Hakeijo on the big pieces
The two approaches may work out the same, but I haven't done the math. Clockwork Citrus Fillet probably pushes the first approach over the edge to be the winner, unless you're a vamp.
Waffennacht wrote: »Magicka has a higher starting point than spell damage. That's why the percentage bonuses work so well. It's really easy to have at least 30K magicka and you'll push it to 50K without Mage mundus and with all Hakeijo, on NB and warden, with a basic Shackle / Necro / Domihaus / Mag Monster setup. Tell me how to push Spell Damage that far instead. You use a staff. Getting to 2K (unbuffed) already requires an investment in spell damage, whereas 2H and DW have a higher starting point for weapon damage and get the 12% from medium (if using that).Waffennacht wrote: »Real quick, didn't make it too far, no sorc doesn't have a max mag modifier in it's class skills
In CP. In BGs mag is even harder to come by. (No CP % mods)
My magplar is a work in progress. I've been running Prisoner + Overwhelming Surge + Skoria as of late, just to prove it's not all about stats . Surge is anti-nightblade and Prisoner is just fun when you combine it with Race Against Time. The stam regen from Prisoner has actually been quite necessary against people who CC a lot. 2x Protective has been enough to hold up in duels. Not using a shield, just heal, purge and occasionally resto ult.I am a big fan of tri-food with running other regen sources (Ele drain, channeled focus.) With mag bone pirate, there is the tri stat drink, which could let you go full SD while running those sources I have mentioned.
You might want to run through the foods again now that we have some sets running around.
My magplar is a work in progress. I've been running Prisoner + Overwhelming Surge + Skoria as of late, just to prove it's not all about stats . Surge is anti-nightblade and Prisoner is just fun when you combine it with Race Against Time. The stam regen from Prisoner has actually been quite necessary against people who CC a lot. 2x Protective has been enough to hold up in duels. Not using a shield, just heal, purge and occasionally resto ult.I am a big fan of tri-food with running other regen sources (Ele drain, channeled focus.) With mag bone pirate, there is the tri stat drink, which could let you go full SD while running those sources I have mentioned.
You might want to run through the foods again now that we have some sets running around.
I don't like the templar CCs. Toppling Charge requires distance. Spear can be reflected. My duelling partner runs a stam DK with decent reflect uptime and Reverb Bash. That CC, and the Defile, just seems so much more effective than templar CCs. The next build I'm going to try is Prisoner + Amber Plasm + Skoria, at which point you have 1K stam regen, and I'll try Reverb Bash on a magplar build, with 2H and Forward Momentum on the other bar.
My magplar is a work in progress. I've been running Prisoner + Overwhelming Surge + Skoria as of late, just to prove it's not all about stats . Surge is anti-nightblade and Prisoner is just fun when you combine it with Race Against Time. The stam regen from Prisoner has actually been quite necessary against people who CC a lot. 2x Protective has been enough to hold up in duels. Not using a shield, just heal, purge and occasionally resto ult.I am a big fan of tri-food with running other regen sources (Ele drain, channeled focus.) With mag bone pirate, there is the tri stat drink, which could let you go full SD while running those sources I have mentioned.
You might want to run through the foods again now that we have some sets running around.
I don't like the templar CCs. Toppling Charge requires distance. Spear can be reflected. My duelling partner runs a stam DK with decent reflect uptime and Reverb Bash. That CC, and the Defile, just seems so much more effective than templar CCs. The next build I'm going to try is Prisoner + Amber Plasm + Skoria, at which point you have 1K stam regen, and I'll try Reverb Bash on a magplar build, with 2H and Forward Momentum on the other bar.
I mostly play solo. I am not a good 1vXer and spend a fair amount of time in IC. Riding isn't an issue there, and a lull in PvP means you farm Tel Var. As a nightblade it's perfectly viable to solo, and the changes to Mark will help that further. Other classes I tend to group, but I also always play speed builds. That templar with Prisoner and Race Against Time is hard to catch, once she gets going. Faster than Mist Form, though less defensive.
Magicka has a higher starting point than spell damage. That's why the percentage bonuses work so well. It's really easy to have at least 30K magicka and you'll push it to 50K without Mage mundus and with all Hakeijo, on NB and warden, with a basic Shackle / Necro / Domihaus / Mag Monster setup. Tell me how to push Spell Damage that far instead. You use a staff. Getting to 2K (unbuffed) already requires an investment in spell damage, whereas 2H and DW have a higher starting point for weapon damage and get the 12% from medium (if using that).Waffennacht wrote: »Real quick, didn't make it too far, no sorc doesn't have a max mag modifier in it's class skills
I have been thinking that maybe bright throats + dubious will give better all round stats than shackle on a magika build.
it's the lack of stam that gets mag toon killed more often than not so I think this may be a good combination