Daus wrote: »

Ocelot9x wrote: »

It’s time for this discussion to pop again (and it’s time for zos to ignore it as always) .

Stamina dk is one of the most boring classes. It needs an identity,more active skills,more group utility,more combos.
The community gave a LOT of constructive feedback but still every patch is a delusion. I’m so tired of this situation, my main class (200+ days of pvp played) is underperforming so bad that the people in my guild moans when I say I logged my dk instead of the warden.

With the exception of the Warden, stamina as a whole is in a bad spot.

Daus wrote: »

Ocelot9x wrote: »

It’s time for this discussion to pop again (and it’s time for zos to ignore it as always) .

Stamina dk is one of the most boring classes. It needs an identity,more active skills,more group utility,more combos.
The community gave a LOT of constructive feedback but still every patch is a delusion. I’m so tired of this situation, my main class (200+ days of pvp played) is underperforming so bad that the people in my guild moans when I say I logged my dk instead of the warden.

With the exception of the Warden, stamina as a whole is in a bad spot.

BohnT wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Ocelot9x wrote: »

It’s time for this discussion to pop again (and it’s time for zos to ignore it as always) .

Stamina dk is one of the most boring classes. It needs an identity,more active skills,more group utility,more combos.
The community gave a LOT of constructive feedback but still every patch is a delusion. I’m so tired of this situation, my main class (200+ days of pvp played) is underperforming so bad that the people in my guild moans when I say I logged my dk instead of the warden.

With the exception of the Warden, stamina as a whole is in a bad spot.

No stamnb is the strongest class atm tied with magsorc, stamsorc is on the same level as magplar, magdk and magnb.
Only stamplar and stamdk Fall behind and in the case of stamplar it's only due to sustain issues.

The balance between mag and stam is better than it has been for the most part of this game

BohnT wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Ocelot9x wrote: »

It’s time for this discussion to pop again (and it’s time for zos to ignore it as always) .

Stamina dk is one of the most boring classes. It needs an identity,more active skills,more group utility,more combos.
The community gave a LOT of constructive feedback but still every patch is a delusion. I’m so tired of this situation, my main class (200+ days of pvp played) is underperforming so bad that the people in my guild moans when I say I logged my dk instead of the warden.

With the exception of the Warden, stamina as a whole is in a bad spot.

No stamnb is the strongest class atm tied with magsorc, stamsorc is on the same level as magplar, magdk and magnb.
Only stamplar and stamdk Fall behind and in the case of stamplar it's only due to sustain issues.

The balance between mag and stam is better than it has been for the most part of this game

Skoomah wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

1. I'll link a very good post of one of the best stamdks on PC EU

Asmael wrote: »

Farscape76 wrote: »

StamDK needs a spammable... poison whip would seem to require the least effort on the part of ZOS and have the most potential for players, really disappointed that didn't make it into this round on the PTS

Stam whip isn't going to solve stam DK issues. As much as it is requested and as much people think of it as a way to bring back stam DK, it won't solve anything be it PvE or PvP.

We have a PvE spammable already, yet the difference with other specs is such a poison whip would have to massively outperform every other option to make up for the class lacking any decent aggressive passives. Stam DKs will just lose the second they have to use a spammable as long as it doesn't improve their DoTs like the VMA daggers used to. Because:

Templar

• Increase your Critical Damage by 10%
• Increases Weapon Damage by 6%
• (burning light if you compare Jabs to Crushing weapon)
• Reduces the cost of Ultimate abilities by 4%.

Sorcerer

• Reduces the cost of Ultimate abilities by 15%.
• Increases your Physical and Shock Damage by 5%.
• Increases [..] Weapon Damage by 2% for each Sorcerer ability slotted.
• Implosion passive

Nightblade

• Increases damage dealt by Critical Damage done by 10%.
• Increases your Weapon [...]l Critical ratings by 438 for each Assassination ability slotted.
• After drinking a potion you gain 20 Ultimate.

Stam wardens also happen to be in a *** spot PvE wise same way as stam DKs, because guess what:

• Increases your damage done by 2% for each Animal Companion ability slotted

Most of their abilities slotted aren't class abilities. Same way as stam DKs:

• Increases the damage of Flame and Poison area of effect abilities by 6%.

(I didn't add the ult gain from casting an ability from a specific skill line, since that's a common trait among all classes)

As PvE DDs have 80% of their abilities being the same non-class abilities, what dominates is whatever has the most passive abilities that increase their damage as a whole. DKs have essentially no synergy whatsoever with anything that isn't a class ability besides Acid Spray. Stam Wardens do have a synergy with non-class abilities, but can't make the best out of those because they cannot slot enough class abilities in the first place to benefit from those.

Which is why stam whip isn't going to do anything unless you add an effect that's essentially going to make it blatantly overpowered.

I'd like to have at the very least a synergy with poison proc sets and such, but the thing is: they are actually the worst class with those. The "poison" class is the one with the least synergies with those.

Since someone might be tempted to say that DKs have good sustain to help them sustain a spammable: they don't have a single increase to their %stamina recovery. Stam DKs benefit from sustaining solely from flat resource returns and the advantage will fall more in favor of other specs if you have to invest into stamina recovery.

As for PvP, if you want to be a stamblade with no cloak, no assassin's will, no shadow image, then yes, adding a stamina whip is the way to go. And I can assure you it won't make stamina DKs any more popular in PvP than they currently are.

There are issues, there are outdated passives and abilities, there are missing synergies in a few aspects. That's how you fix stamina DK, not by adding something that redundant and actually increases the gap between stam DK and other specs.

2. a stam spammable would be a nice start but in order for stamdk to be ever used again there has to be more changes.
There is no synergy between any skills on the Stamdk, if we look at other classes everything works together and makes the specs feel special, this doesn't happen with stamdk at all.

Example:
Magsorcs are build around killing an enemy with a delayed burst and in order to be able to have a long enough offensive window they can access shields which will prevent them from getting oneshotted. Also while playing defensively the toolkit still gives them the opportunity to change the tide of the fight with hunting curse having a second explosion, frags being able to proc and becoming an instant cast.
To support the ranged playstyle of magsorcs they also have 2 strong tools to create a gap and keep it up during a fight with a meele opponent: streak and mines


Same with stamnb: a completely different approach of killing an enemy, not with delayed burst but with sheer pressure with strong skills and debuffs, you don't need to kill an enemy in one hit (you still can do that very effectively) you can unleash an offensive pressure that your enemy won't be able to outheal with incap, followed by empowered suprise attacks and assassin's will hitting for more than any other non ult ability and the hardest hitting execute starting to deal full damage at 25% health.
And to support this playstyle of, engaging and crushing an enemy with a prolonged time of frontloaded offensive pressure that not many will withstand, you get access to great tools that give you the opportunity to decide when to fight and with how your frontloaded burst works you only hinder yourself if you stay in a long fight that's why cloak and shade are your best friends on a Nightblade, you decide when to fight and when you start the fight your class is at it's biggest advantage.


We can also see this when looking at the magicka counterpart.
When you look at a magdk you know it wants to go in the middle of a fight and stay there until everyone else is dead and to support this the whole toolkit is build around, dealing damage, healing yourself back up again and when you go offensive then you get even more heals, you don't want to be passive, waiting for your enemy to make a mistake, the only mistake they did was getting in a fight with you.
You control the fight with roots, CCs and snares while your dots further increase the pressure on your enemy, and your main spammable only gets stronger when you combine it with your hard/ soft CCs, your sustain tool is made for fighting (at least in theory) you get resources back for using your ultimates, which means when you go offensive or have to retreat your class supports you and helps you to stay in that fight as long as you can.
There are so many small and bigger symergies inside of the magdks toolkit that it has it's own unique playstyle that gets stronger the more you focus on using it.


Now let's talk about stamdk:
The first issue is that for most stamclasses the weapon skill lines have to be used as their class toolkit isn't sufficient, this already means that they are more streamlined than magicka classes.
That's a general problem.
But now here's the problem with stamdk. Your class doesn't give you much, the 2 active abilities (venemous claw and noxious Breath) aren't great, in fact one is outclassed by passively procced bleeds and the other one is so weak that people don't even consider using it.
But if we use them we could think, stamdk is ment to pressure an enemy over a long period of time to finally kill them, problem number one is, most people can kill you before you are able to kill them due to many changes in the Combat System over the years. Also there is no real synergy in your skills thst help you stay in combat longer than others, you don't have any skills that magdks don't have access to and the skills you can use can be used more often on a magdk as they cost magicka. Your passives also don't help you anymore, pre Morrowind the passives were the synergy a stamdk had with it's class.
Helping hands, redguards adrenaline rush and mountain's Blessing were designed to give you sustain when you fully specced into damage and put all your points into stamina, this set stamdk apart from other classes, the lack of damage due to weaker skills could be dealt with as you could put everything into Max stam to reach high damage while the passives gave you great sustain.
With a high stamina Pool and the passives you also had the opportunity to be perma blocking, a huge factor that helps you to help you stay in the fight as long as possible.
This is all gone now and there was no intention to give stamdk any synergy back into it's class design and this brought stamdk in the situation it currently is.

There needs to be a clear Vision for Stamdk like there is for any other viable spec out there (some are better designed than others but there is always a vision behind the specs and their playstyle)

This means however that there need to be many changes and mechanic changes for the stamdk.
Simple percentage changes will never make stamdk a good class

BohnT wrote: »

1. I'll link a very good post of one of the best stamdks on PC EU

Asmael wrote: »

Farscape76 wrote: »

StamDK needs a spammable... poison whip would seem to require the least effort on the part of ZOS and have the most potential for players, really disappointed that didn't make it into this round on the PTS

Stam whip isn't going to solve stam DK issues. As much as it is requested and as much people think of it as a way to bring back stam DK, it won't solve anything be it PvE or PvP.

We have a PvE spammable already, yet the difference with other specs is such a poison whip would have to massively outperform every other option to make up for the class lacking any decent aggressive passives. Stam DKs will just lose the second they have to use a spammable as long as it doesn't improve their DoTs like the VMA daggers used to. Because:

Templar

• Increase your Critical Damage by 10%
• Increases Weapon Damage by 6%
• (burning light if you compare Jabs to Crushing weapon)
• Reduces the cost of Ultimate abilities by 4%.

Sorcerer

• Reduces the cost of Ultimate abilities by 15%.
• Increases your Physical and Shock Damage by 5%.
• Increases [..] Weapon Damage by 2% for each Sorcerer ability slotted.
• Implosion passive

Nightblade

• Increases damage dealt by Critical Damage done by 10%.
• Increases your Weapon [...]l Critical ratings by 438 for each Assassination ability slotted.
• After drinking a potion you gain 20 Ultimate.

Stam wardens also happen to be in a *** spot PvE wise same way as stam DKs, because guess what:

• Increases your damage done by 2% for each Animal Companion ability slotted

Most of their abilities slotted aren't class abilities. Same way as stam DKs:

• Increases the damage of Flame and Poison area of effect abilities by 6%.

(I didn't add the ult gain from casting an ability from a specific skill line, since that's a common trait among all classes)

As PvE DDs have 80% of their abilities being the same non-class abilities, what dominates is whatever has the most passive abilities that increase their damage as a whole. DKs have essentially no synergy whatsoever with anything that isn't a class ability besides Acid Spray. Stam Wardens do have a synergy with non-class abilities, but can't make the best out of those because they cannot slot enough class abilities in the first place to benefit from those.

Which is why stam whip isn't going to do anything unless you add an effect that's essentially going to make it blatantly overpowered.

I'd like to have at the very least a synergy with poison proc sets and such, but the thing is: they are actually the worst class with those. The "poison" class is the one with the least synergies with those.

Since someone might be tempted to say that DKs have good sustain to help them sustain a spammable: they don't have a single increase to their %stamina recovery. Stam DKs benefit from sustaining solely from flat resource returns and the advantage will fall more in favor of other specs if you have to invest into stamina recovery.

As for PvP, if you want to be a stamblade with no cloak, no assassin's will, no shadow image, then yes, adding a stamina whip is the way to go. And I can assure you it won't make stamina DKs any more popular in PvP than they currently are.

There are issues, there are outdated passives and abilities, there are missing synergies in a few aspects. That's how you fix stamina DK, not by adding something that redundant and actually increases the gap between stam DK and other specs.

2. a stam spammable would be a nice start but in order for stamdk to be ever used again there has to be more changes.
There is no synergy between any skills on the Stamdk, if we look at other classes everything works together and makes the specs feel special, this doesn't happen with stamdk at all.

Example:
Magsorcs are build around killing an enemy with a delayed burst and in order to be able to have a long enough offensive window they can access shields which will prevent them from getting oneshotted. Also while playing defensively the toolkit still gives them the opportunity to change the tide of the fight with hunting curse having a second explosion, frags being able to proc and becoming an instant cast.
To support the ranged playstyle of magsorcs they also have 2 strong tools to create a gap and keep it up during a fight with a meele opponent: streak and mines


Same with stamnb: a completely different approach of killing an enemy, not with delayed burst but with sheer pressure with strong skills and debuffs, you don't need to kill an enemy in one hit (you still can do that very effectively) you can unleash an offensive pressure that your enemy won't be able to outheal with incap, followed by empowered suprise attacks and assassin's will hitting for more than any other non ult ability and the hardest hitting execute starting to deal full damage at 25% health.
And to support this playstyle of, engaging and crushing an enemy with a prolonged time of frontloaded offensive pressure that not many will withstand, you get access to great tools that give you the opportunity to decide when to fight and with how your frontloaded burst works you only hinder yourself if you stay in a long fight that's why cloak and shade are your best friends on a Nightblade, you decide when to fight and when you start the fight your class is at it's biggest advantage.


We can also see this when looking at the magicka counterpart.
When you look at a magdk you know it wants to go in the middle of a fight and stay there until everyone else is dead and to support this the whole toolkit is build around, dealing damage, healing yourself back up again and when you go offensive then you get even more heals, you don't want to be passive, waiting for your enemy to make a mistake, the only mistake they did was getting in a fight with you.
You control the fight with roots, CCs and snares while your dots further increase the pressure on your enemy, and your main spammable only gets stronger when you combine it with your hard/ soft CCs, your sustain tool is made for fighting (at least in theory) you get resources back for using your ultimates, which means when you go offensive or have to retreat your class supports you and helps you to stay in that fight as long as you can.
There are so many small and bigger symergies inside of the magdks toolkit that it has it's own unique playstyle that gets stronger the more you focus on using it.


Now let's talk about stamdk:
The first issue is that for most stamclasses the weapon skill lines have to be used as their class toolkit isn't sufficient, this already means that they are more streamlined than magicka classes.
That's a general problem.
But now here's the problem with stamdk. Your class doesn't give you much, the 2 active abilities (venemous claw and noxious Breath) aren't great, in fact one is outclassed by passively procced bleeds and the other one is so weak that people don't even consider using it.
But if we use them we could think, stamdk is ment to pressure an enemy over a long period of time to finally kill them, problem number one is, most people can kill you before you are able to kill them due to many changes in the Combat System over the years. Also there is no real synergy in your skills thst help you stay in combat longer than others, you don't have any skills that magdks don't have access to and the skills you can use can be used more often on a magdk as they cost magicka. Your passives also don't help you anymore, pre Morrowind the passives were the synergy a stamdk had with it's class.
Helping hands, redguards adrenaline rush and mountain's Blessing were designed to give you sustain when you fully specced into damage and put all your points into stamina, this set stamdk apart from other classes, the lack of damage due to weaker skills could be dealt with as you could put everything into Max stam to reach high damage while the passives gave you great sustain.
With a high stamina Pool and the passives you also had the opportunity to be perma blocking, a huge factor that helps you to help you stay in the fight as long as possible.
This is all gone now and there was no intention to give stamdk any synergy back into it's class design and this brought stamdk in the situation it currently is.

There needs to be a clear Vision for Stamdk like there is for any other viable spec out there (some are better designed than others but there is always a vision behind the specs and their playstyle)

This means however that there need to be many changes and mechanic changes for the stamdk.
Simple percentage changes will never make stamdk a good class

Why such the opposition to a Stamina Whip? Wrecking Blow is a terrible skill, try landing it on a good player. It makes me so angry when threads are highjacked with garbage responses meant to derail a thread.

ZOS wants to box us into the class that dots people up, but they take away our superior tankiness, so we can’t survive long enough to get the kill. All kills are earned with a burst combo. Leap + Reverse Slice

You ever try dotting someone up for a kill?

Nightblades - Dot dot dot, enemy cloaks.

Sorc - Dot dot dot, enemy shield stacks.

Templar- Dot dot dot, enemy heals to full even with major defile.

Warden- Dot dot dot, enemy just runs off and comes back later with 2 second burst combo.

BohnT wrote: »

1. I'll link a very good post of one of the best stamdks on PC EU

Asmael wrote: »

Farscape76 wrote: »

StamDK needs a spammable... poison whip would seem to require the least effort on the part of ZOS and have the most potential for players, really disappointed that didn't make it into this round on the PTS

Stam whip isn't going to solve stam DK issues. As much as it is requested and as much people think of it as a way to bring back stam DK, it won't solve anything be it PvE or PvP.

We have a PvE spammable already, yet the difference with other specs is such a poison whip would have to massively outperform every other option to make up for the class lacking any decent aggressive passives. Stam DKs will just lose the second they have to use a spammable as long as it doesn't improve their DoTs like the VMA daggers used to. Because:

Templar

• Increase your Critical Damage by 10%
• Increases Weapon Damage by 6%
• (burning light if you compare Jabs to Crushing weapon)
• Reduces the cost of Ultimate abilities by 4%.

Sorcerer

• Reduces the cost of Ultimate abilities by 15%.
• Increases your Physical and Shock Damage by 5%.
• Increases [..] Weapon Damage by 2% for each Sorcerer ability slotted.
• Implosion passive

Nightblade

• Increases damage dealt by Critical Damage done by 10%.
• Increases your Weapon [...]l Critical ratings by 438 for each Assassination ability slotted.
• After drinking a potion you gain 20 Ultimate.

Stam wardens also happen to be in a *** spot PvE wise same way as stam DKs, because guess what:

• Increases your damage done by 2% for each Animal Companion ability slotted

Most of their abilities slotted aren't class abilities. Same way as stam DKs:

• Increases the damage of Flame and Poison area of effect abilities by 6%.

(I didn't add the ult gain from casting an ability from a specific skill line, since that's a common trait among all classes)

As PvE DDs have 80% of their abilities being the same non-class abilities, what dominates is whatever has the most passive abilities that increase their damage as a whole. DKs have essentially no synergy whatsoever with anything that isn't a class ability besides Acid Spray. Stam Wardens do have a synergy with non-class abilities, but can't make the best out of those because they cannot slot enough class abilities in the first place to benefit from those.

Which is why stam whip isn't going to do anything unless you add an effect that's essentially going to make it blatantly overpowered.

I'd like to have at the very least a synergy with poison proc sets and such, but the thing is: they are actually the worst class with those. The "poison" class is the one with the least synergies with those.

Since someone might be tempted to say that DKs have good sustain to help them sustain a spammable: they don't have a single increase to their %stamina recovery. Stam DKs benefit from sustaining solely from flat resource returns and the advantage will fall more in favor of other specs if you have to invest into stamina recovery.

As for PvP, if you want to be a stamblade with no cloak, no assassin's will, no shadow image, then yes, adding a stamina whip is the way to go. And I can assure you it won't make stamina DKs any more popular in PvP than they currently are.

There are issues, there are outdated passives and abilities, there are missing synergies in a few aspects. That's how you fix stamina DK, not by adding something that redundant and actually increases the gap between stam DK and other specs.

2. a stam spammable would be a nice start but in order for stamdk to be ever used again there has to be more changes.
There is no synergy between any skills on the Stamdk, if we look at other classes everything works together and makes the specs feel special, this doesn't happen with stamdk at all.

Example:
Magsorcs are build around killing an enemy with a delayed burst and in order to be able to have a long enough offensive window they can access shields which will prevent them from getting oneshotted. Also while playing defensively the toolkit still gives them the opportunity to change the tide of the fight with hunting curse having a second explosion, frags being able to proc and becoming an instant cast.
To support the ranged playstyle of magsorcs they also have 2 strong tools to create a gap and keep it up during a fight with a meele opponent: streak and mines


Same with stamnb: a completely different approach of killing an enemy, not with delayed burst but with sheer pressure with strong skills and debuffs, you don't need to kill an enemy in one hit (you still can do that very effectively) you can unleash an offensive pressure that your enemy won't be able to outheal with incap, followed by empowered suprise attacks and assassin's will hitting for more than any other non ult ability and the hardest hitting execute starting to deal full damage at 25% health.
And to support this playstyle of, engaging and crushing an enemy with a prolonged time of frontloaded offensive pressure that not many will withstand, you get access to great tools that give you the opportunity to decide when to fight and with how your frontloaded burst works you only hinder yourself if you stay in a long fight that's why cloak and shade are your best friends on a Nightblade, you decide when to fight and when you start the fight your class is at it's biggest advantage.


We can also see this when looking at the magicka counterpart.
When you look at a magdk you know it wants to go in the middle of a fight and stay there until everyone else is dead and to support this the whole toolkit is build around, dealing damage, healing yourself back up again and when you go offensive then you get even more heals, you don't want to be passive, waiting for your enemy to make a mistake, the only mistake they did was getting in a fight with you.
You control the fight with roots, CCs and snares while your dots further increase the pressure on your enemy, and your main spammable only gets stronger when you combine it with your hard/ soft CCs, your sustain tool is made for fighting (at least in theory) you get resources back for using your ultimates, which means when you go offensive or have to retreat your class supports you and helps you to stay in that fight as long as you can.
There are so many small and bigger symergies inside of the magdks toolkit that it has it's own unique playstyle that gets stronger the more you focus on using it.


Now let's talk about stamdk:
The first issue is that for most stamclasses the weapon skill lines have to be used as their class toolkit isn't sufficient, this already means that they are more streamlined than magicka classes.
That's a general problem.
But now here's the problem with stamdk. Your class doesn't give you much, the 2 active abilities (venemous claw and noxious Breath) aren't great, in fact one is outclassed by passively procced bleeds and the other one is so weak that people don't even consider using it.
But if we use them we could think, stamdk is ment to pressure an enemy over a long period of time to finally kill them, problem number one is, most people can kill you before you are able to kill them due to many changes in the Combat System over the years. Also there is no real synergy in your skills thst help you stay in combat longer than others, you don't have any skills that magdks don't have access to and the skills you can use can be used more often on a magdk as they cost magicka. Your passives also don't help you anymore, pre Morrowind the passives were the synergy a stamdk had with it's class.
Helping hands, redguards adrenaline rush and mountain's Blessing were designed to give you sustain when you fully specced into damage and put all your points into stamina, this set stamdk apart from other classes, the lack of damage due to weaker skills could be dealt with as you could put everything into Max stam to reach high damage while the passives gave you great sustain.
With a high stamina Pool and the passives you also had the opportunity to be perma blocking, a huge factor that helps you to help you stay in the fight as long as possible.
This is all gone now and there was no intention to give stamdk any synergy back into it's class design and this brought stamdk in the situation it currently is.

There needs to be a clear Vision for Stamdk like there is for any other viable spec out there (some are better designed than others but there is always a vision behind the specs and their playstyle)

This means however that there need to be many changes and mechanic changes for the stamdk.
Simple percentage changes will never make stamdk a good class

IAVITNI wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

1. I'll link a very good post of one of the best stamdks on PC EU

Asmael wrote: »

Farscape76 wrote: »

StamDK needs a spammable... poison whip would seem to require the least effort on the part of ZOS and have the most potential for players, really disappointed that didn't make it into this round on the PTS

Stam whip isn't going to solve stam DK issues. As much as it is requested and as much people think of it as a way to bring back stam DK, it won't solve anything be it PvE or PvP.

We have a PvE spammable already, yet the difference with other specs is such a poison whip would have to massively outperform every other option to make up for the class lacking any decent aggressive passives. Stam DKs will just lose the second they have to use a spammable as long as it doesn't improve their DoTs like the VMA daggers used to. Because:

Templar

• Increase your Critical Damage by 10%
• Increases Weapon Damage by 6%
• (burning light if you compare Jabs to Crushing weapon)
• Reduces the cost of Ultimate abilities by 4%.

Sorcerer

• Reduces the cost of Ultimate abilities by 15%.
• Increases your Physical and Shock Damage by 5%.
• Increases [..] Weapon Damage by 2% for each Sorcerer ability slotted.
• Implosion passive

Nightblade

• Increases damage dealt by Critical Damage done by 10%.
• Increases your Weapon [...]l Critical ratings by 438 for each Assassination ability slotted.
• After drinking a potion you gain 20 Ultimate.

Stam wardens also happen to be in a *** spot PvE wise same way as stam DKs, because guess what:

• Increases your damage done by 2% for each Animal Companion ability slotted

Most of their abilities slotted aren't class abilities. Same way as stam DKs:

• Increases the damage of Flame and Poison area of effect abilities by 6%.

(I didn't add the ult gain from casting an ability from a specific skill line, since that's a common trait among all classes)

As PvE DDs have 80% of their abilities being the same non-class abilities, what dominates is whatever has the most passive abilities that increase their damage as a whole. DKs have essentially no synergy whatsoever with anything that isn't a class ability besides Acid Spray. Stam Wardens do have a synergy with non-class abilities, but can't make the best out of those because they cannot slot enough class abilities in the first place to benefit from those.

Which is why stam whip isn't going to do anything unless you add an effect that's essentially going to make it blatantly overpowered.

I'd like to have at the very least a synergy with poison proc sets and such, but the thing is: they are actually the worst class with those. The "poison" class is the one with the least synergies with those.

Since someone might be tempted to say that DKs have good sustain to help them sustain a spammable: they don't have a single increase to their %stamina recovery. Stam DKs benefit from sustaining solely from flat resource returns and the advantage will fall more in favor of other specs if you have to invest into stamina recovery.

As for PvP, if you want to be a stamblade with no cloak, no assassin's will, no shadow image, then yes, adding a stamina whip is the way to go. And I can assure you it won't make stamina DKs any more popular in PvP than they currently are.

There are issues, there are outdated passives and abilities, there are missing synergies in a few aspects. That's how you fix stamina DK, not by adding something that redundant and actually increases the gap between stam DK and other specs.

2. a stam spammable would be a nice start but in order for stamdk to be ever used again there has to be more changes.
There is no synergy between any skills on the Stamdk, if we look at other classes everything works together and makes the specs feel special, this doesn't happen with stamdk at all.

Example:
Magsorcs are build around killing an enemy with a delayed burst and in order to be able to have a long enough offensive window they can access shields which will prevent them from getting oneshotted. Also while playing defensively the toolkit still gives them the opportunity to change the tide of the fight with hunting curse having a second explosion, frags being able to proc and becoming an instant cast.
To support the ranged playstyle of magsorcs they also have 2 strong tools to create a gap and keep it up during a fight with a meele opponent: streak and mines


Same with stamnb: a completely different approach of killing an enemy, not with delayed burst but with sheer pressure with strong skills and debuffs, you don't need to kill an enemy in one hit (you still can do that very effectively) you can unleash an offensive pressure that your enemy won't be able to outheal with incap, followed by empowered suprise attacks and assassin's will hitting for more than any other non ult ability and the hardest hitting execute starting to deal full damage at 25% health.
And to support this playstyle of, engaging and crushing an enemy with a prolonged time of frontloaded offensive pressure that not many will withstand, you get access to great tools that give you the opportunity to decide when to fight and with how your frontloaded burst works you only hinder yourself if you stay in a long fight that's why cloak and shade are your best friends on a Nightblade, you decide when to fight and when you start the fight your class is at it's biggest advantage.


We can also see this when looking at the magicka counterpart.
When you look at a magdk you know it wants to go in the middle of a fight and stay there until everyone else is dead and to support this the whole toolkit is build around, dealing damage, healing yourself back up again and when you go offensive then you get even more heals, you don't want to be passive, waiting for your enemy to make a mistake, the only mistake they did was getting in a fight with you.
You control the fight with roots, CCs and snares while your dots further increase the pressure on your enemy, and your main spammable only gets stronger when you combine it with your hard/ soft CCs, your sustain tool is made for fighting (at least in theory) you get resources back for using your ultimates, which means when you go offensive or have to retreat your class supports you and helps you to stay in that fight as long as you can.
There are so many small and bigger symergies inside of the magdks toolkit that it has it's own unique playstyle that gets stronger the more you focus on using it.


Now let's talk about stamdk:
The first issue is that for most stamclasses the weapon skill lines have to be used as their class toolkit isn't sufficient, this already means that they are more streamlined than magicka classes.
That's a general problem.
But now here's the problem with stamdk. Your class doesn't give you much, the 2 active abilities (venemous claw and noxious Breath) aren't great, in fact one is outclassed by passively procced bleeds and the other one is so weak that people don't even consider using it.
But if we use them we could think, stamdk is ment to pressure an enemy over a long period of time to finally kill them, problem number one is, most people can kill you before you are able to kill them due to many changes in the Combat System over the years. Also there is no real synergy in your skills thst help you stay in combat longer than others, you don't have any skills that magdks don't have access to and the skills you can use can be used more often on a magdk as they cost magicka. Your passives also don't help you anymore, pre Morrowind the passives were the synergy a stamdk had with it's class.
Helping hands, redguards adrenaline rush and mountain's Blessing were designed to give you sustain when you fully specced into damage and put all your points into stamina, this set stamdk apart from other classes, the lack of damage due to weaker skills could be dealt with as you could put everything into Max stam to reach high damage while the passives gave you great sustain.
With a high stamina Pool and the passives you also had the opportunity to be perma blocking, a huge factor that helps you to help you stay in the fight as long as possible.
This is all gone now and there was no intention to give stamdk any synergy back into it's class design and this brought stamdk in the situation it currently is.

There needs to be a clear Vision for Stamdk like there is for any other viable spec out there (some are better designed than others but there is always a vision behind the specs and their playstyle)

This means however that there need to be many changes and mechanic changes for the stamdk.
Simple percentage changes will never make stamdk a good class

Can you do an overview of every class like you did with stamblade, magsorc and magdk. Just reading the magdk overview has got me rethinking my rotations and combat choices.

Sky_WK wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Ocelot9x wrote: »

It’s time for this discussion to pop again (and it’s time for zos to ignore it as always) .

Stamina dk is one of the most boring classes. It needs an identity,more active skills,more group utility,more combos.
The community gave a LOT of constructive feedback but still every patch is a delusion. I’m so tired of this situation, my main class (200+ days of pvp played) is underperforming so bad that the people in my guild moans when I say I logged my dk instead of the warden.

With the exception of the Warden, stamina as a whole is in a bad spot.

Seriously where do you get your information dude? I always see you saying the most backwards ass ***, so let me correct you here, again. Stam is most certainly the meta in elder snares online, and barring 2 trials. This isn't arguable so don't bother - it's a fact.

Back on topic, StamDK needs some love, Noxious Breath is awful to land, claw is cool, all other DK skills commonly used cost magicka, I don't mind having buffs cost magicka, however I do mind having a class that doesn't have an identity and leans on weapon skills for everything. Give us a #stamwhip.

ak_pvp wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Ocelot9x wrote: »

It’s time for this discussion to pop again (and it’s time for zos to ignore it as always) .

Stamina dk is one of the most boring classes. It needs an identity,more active skills,more group utility,more combos.
The community gave a LOT of constructive feedback but still every patch is a delusion. I’m so tired of this situation, my main class (200+ days of pvp played) is underperforming so bad that the people in my guild moans when I say I logged my dk instead of the warden.

With the exception of the Warden, stamina as a whole is in a bad spot.

Stamblade is strong to the point of OP (only sloads hurts it) and stamsorc is pretty solid now too. Stamplar and DK are the only bad ones. They have a parallel in Magden and Magplar, so its not a stam issue.