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Please Add Number Statistics in Trials- This will benefit everyone

BeefyMrTips
BeefyMrTips
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It would benefit ESO and it’s clients to have numbers generated at the end and or during every Trial on console servers. The numbers could show everyone’s damage done, healing done, damage taken, most deaths, etcetera I am sure there could be a lot of stats to include fun ones produced.

The argument against this is that people will be excluded because of their low numbers or inability to produce results that a more dedicated gamer will produce. The problem with this argument is that this already happens. People already get bullied based on their ability to do damage and they get excluded if they do not conform to what is considered Best in Slot (BIS).
Currently, the only way a DPS character can join a decent trials guild is by showing what they can do on a 3 mil or 6 mil dummy. It only shows their potential DPS but doesn’t take into account the players ability to perform in a harsh setting or if a certain class is better in certain trials than others. As it stands people constantly argue that one class is always best in slot and that class should wear certain sets to produce optimum results. It is a reality that there WILL ALWAYS BE ONE CLASS WITH CERTAIN SETS (BEST IN SLOT) in existence when it comes to DPS testing on a dummy in an environment that does not challenge you.

The problem with this is that it fosters a belief system that one is better than another from the get go without actually being able to prove it. I firmly believe that someone can be exceptionally good at one class and its play style and do better as a team mate/damage dealer in a trial or dungeon than someone who has practiced with what is deemed BIS on a 3 mil dummy. People then choose to limit their creativity and wants based on what will be accepted by the whole. How many people have created new characters just to be accepted when the character they love may out perform a cookie cutter formatted character? (This argument includes Raid Parsing)

This also helps with armor sets and limiting the need to constantly try to balance with nerfs and buffs. I believe someone can design a playstyle that fits for them that incorporates set armor that really plays to their strengths and needs instead of trying to fit them into the cookie cutter standard of sets.

I believe we can prove with this request that the game could be even better and perhaps stop limiting our fellow adventurers who want to be a part of a great group by giving them an honest chance to prove that their character can be amazing. Furthermore, I believe some classes and races are better in certain trials than others, this means that a gamer would need to become more versatile in their gameplay which allows a gamer to further challenge themselves by having other classes and races in their arsenal to turn to in order to be most effective for their team vs just the “BIS”.

This request is brought to you by someone who has run Vet Trials, been stuck with bad groups and had the privilege of working with solid teams. I will always prefer someone who does a stable 30k DPS over someone who will do anywhere from 20-40k inconsistently in a Trial. I have seen raid parses under 2 min get stuck on easy sections of trials because someone only knows how to fight a test dummy or they switch their fighting style from how they go at a dummy vs how they go at mobs attacking them in trials. Lets get rid of the elitest way of thinking by giving every PERSON not BIS class/armor sets a chance to prove themselves.
Mr. was my Father's name, just the tips is fine.
  • BeefyMrTips
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    Lol great reply, why?
    Mr. was my Father's name, just the tips is fine.
  • Danksta
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    Why ask for an extremely dumbed down version of Combat Metrics? ZoS should just buy the most used add-ons from their creators and implement them into the base game. I'd say to come up with their own version but, well.... we all saw the crappy buff trackers that we got.
    PS4/NA PSN-BawKinTackWarDs

    vHRCHM vAAHM vSOHM vMOLHM vHOFHM vAS+2 vDSA vMA Flawless
  • BeefyMrTips
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    I guess my opinion is that at least players would be given a chance. Players are judged way before they even get into a trial, no?
    Mr. was my Father's name, just the tips is fine.
  • BeefyMrTips
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    Danksta wrote: »
    Why ask for an extremely dumbed down version of Combat Metrics? ZoS should just buy the most used add-ons from their creators and implement them into the base game. I'd say to come up with their own version but, well.... we all saw the crappy buff trackers that we got.

    True, I am actually looking just to brainstorm to figure out ways to improve upon this system that I believe is broken with limiting factors that funnel players into a predetermined character slot instead of giving them the freedom to really challenge themselves and the game
    Mr. was my Father's name, just the tips is fine.
  • BeefyMrTips
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    I think that they made a mistake with WoW allowing for these types of tools / metrics. They have been rejigging raiding (trials) ever since.

    It’s better for the overall health of the game to get a mix of players, and the harsh use of metrics will only really aleniate NEW players, more so than the benefit of player improvement.

    Right, but these aren't new players in Vet Trials. And maybe we should just keep it to Vet Trials. These are players who have spent a lot of time mastering a character they love with a playstyle that fits them. Yet they are often automatically excluded before the numbers even come up if they are a mag DK right now. They never even get the chance to be excluded because they automatically lost the day they chose the wrong class not knowing any better. "Mag DK used to be amazing" is what you hear or that they nerfed and its no longer any good. I believe that is not the case at all.
    Edited by BeefyMrTips on April 20, 2018 4:23PM
    Mr. was my Father's name, just the tips is fine.
  • NoTimeToWait
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    How about giving not actual numbers, but percentile. E.g. Your group performance was better than 65% of other groups which participated in N trial this week. Your team dps was higher than 69% of other groups. Your DD player1 dealt more damage than 95% of other damage dealers. Your DD player2 dealt more damage than 55% of other damage dealers.

    Something like that. And show this information only to a group leader and to the player whom this information concerns
    Edited by NoTimeToWait on April 20, 2018 4:25PM
  • RebornV3x
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    After playing Neverwinter which already has a after dungeon stat screen and i have to say it helped me improve my play style since I saw how i did in comparison to everyone else in the group good or bad it helped and we need this espically on console
    Edited by RebornV3x on April 20, 2018 4:38PM
    Xbox One - NA GT: RebornV3x
    I also play on PC from time to time but I just wanna be left alone on there so sorry.
  • AlnilamE
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    Danksta wrote: »
    Why ask for an extremely dumbed down version of Combat Metrics? ZoS should just buy the most used add-ons from their creators and implement them into the base game. I'd say to come up with their own version but, well.... we all saw the crappy buff trackers that we got.

    True, I am actually looking just to brainstorm to figure out ways to improve upon this system that I believe is broken with limiting factors that funnel players into a predetermined character slot instead of giving them the freedom to really challenge themselves and the game

    Maelstrom Arena is over there -->

    The Moot Councillor
    Zenilda Hlaalu - 160 Nightblade (EP)
    Potion Ivy -160 Sorcerer (EP)
    Alnibis - 160 Templar (EP)
    Jaskaar the Cat - 160 Sorcerer (AD)
    Nyau Cafra - 26 Dragonknight (AD)
    Lash gra-Mogak - 160 Dragonknight (EP)
    Holds-Green-Fish - 160 Nightblade (DC)
    Sings-of-Ice-Storms - 160 Warden (EP)
    Mug gro-Gogron - 160 Warden (EP)
    Neesha af-Marimah - level 46 Templar (EP)
  • Juju_beans
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    Vaoh wrote: »
    Juju_beans wrote: »
    lol at "fun stats". Yeah those stats will be used to compare players..exclude or include.

    Wow is a great example of how that works.

    Doesn’t wow have an enormous raiding community, while this game’s raiding community barely exists? Not sure what point you’re trying to make.

    Seeing those stats helps people strive to improve. Atm you can “feel” like you did good or bad yet have zero idea how you actually performed, making it nearly impossible for most raiders to improve themselves.

    Oh it's not just raids. Players are kicked in dungeons as well for low dps.

    I got kicked from a dungeon for "low dps". I was the healer and a few of my spells also did damage.
    It was the low damage showing up on the meters after a player died that got me kicked. (couldn't be helped..he ran way ahead out of LOS).
    Then they tried to invite me back when they realized I was the healer.
    Edited by Juju_beans on April 20, 2018 4:43PM
  • Camb0Sl1ce
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    How about giving not actual numbers, but percentile. E.g. Your group performance was better than 65% of other groups which participated in N trial this week. Your team dps was higher than 69% of other groups. Your DD player1 dealt more damage than 95% of other damage dealers. Your DD player2 dealt more damage than 55% of other damage dealers.

    Something like that. And show this information only to a group leader and to the player whom this information concerns

    This isn't too bad of an idea, could prevent players being singled out because of their performance. Which seems to be the argument people bring up about metrics.
  • AlnilamE
    AlnilamE
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    Juju_beans wrote: »
    Vaoh wrote: »
    Juju_beans wrote: »
    lol at "fun stats". Yeah those stats will be used to compare players..exclude or include.

    Wow is a great example of how that works.

    Doesn’t wow have an enormous raiding community, while this game’s raiding community barely exists? Not sure what point you’re trying to make.

    Seeing those stats helps people strive to improve. Atm you can “feel” like you did good or bad yet have zero idea how you actually performed, making it nearly impossible for most raiders to improve themselves.

    Oh it's not just raids. Players are kicked in dungeons as well for low dps.

    I got kicked from a dungeon for "low dps". I was the healer and a few of my spells also did damage.
    It was the low damage showing up on the meters after a player died that got me kicked. (couldn't be helped..he ran way ahead out of LOS).
    Then they tried to invite me back when they realized I was the healer.

    OK. I'm sure it wasn't funny at the time, but I did giggle.
    The Moot Councillor
    Zenilda Hlaalu - 160 Nightblade (EP)
    Potion Ivy -160 Sorcerer (EP)
    Alnibis - 160 Templar (EP)
    Jaskaar the Cat - 160 Sorcerer (AD)
    Nyau Cafra - 26 Dragonknight (AD)
    Lash gra-Mogak - 160 Dragonknight (EP)
    Holds-Green-Fish - 160 Nightblade (DC)
    Sings-of-Ice-Storms - 160 Warden (EP)
    Mug gro-Gogron - 160 Warden (EP)
    Neesha af-Marimah - level 46 Templar (EP)
  • WrathOfInnos
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    People will be always included or excluded due to performance, this would just replace guesswork with some facts. This info is already available on PC with addons, but I think console players should also have the ability to see some useful stats.
  • Juju_beans
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    AlnilamE wrote: »
    Juju_beans wrote: »
    Vaoh wrote: »
    Juju_beans wrote: »
    lol at "fun stats". Yeah those stats will be used to compare players..exclude or include.

    Wow is a great example of how that works.

    Doesn’t wow have an enormous raiding community, while this game’s raiding community barely exists? Not sure what point you’re trying to make.

    Seeing those stats helps people strive to improve. Atm you can “feel” like you did good or bad yet have zero idea how you actually performed, making it nearly impossible for most raiders to improve themselves.

    Oh it's not just raids. Players are kicked in dungeons as well for low dps.

    I got kicked from a dungeon for "low dps". I was the healer and a few of my spells also did damage.
    It was the low damage showing up on the meters after a player died that got me kicked. (couldn't be helped..he ran way ahead out of LOS).
    Then they tried to invite me back when they realized I was the healer.

    OK. I'm sure it wasn't funny at the time, but I did giggle.

    I gave up running dungeons on my healer..went pvp instead as those folks appreciate heals as they expect to die.

    Anyway..the point I was trying to make is that in the long term those metrics become toxic to the community.

  • BeefyMrTips
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    Juju_beans wrote: »
    It's good if you use to to improve. It's bad if you use it against other players to exclude.
    And after a while people just look at the lowest numbered player to automatically "kick".

    I agree but that is already happening in Trials Groups, but they base this off of dummies instead and the players never get a chance to show their strengths. A person could be amazing with raid awareness and can outperform a dummy destroyer
    Mr. was my Father's name, just the tips is fine.
  • Mureel
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    CurlyQTip wrote: »
    playing as a healer, I want to be judged, because it drives me to further improve techniques and skill

    You *** about my healing and create a valid point and I'll become better and better

    I think it'd be cool if I could compare myself to other dungeon and trial healers, but I'm not sure if putting numbers and stats on people is a good idea.

    With healers - it's not Hps you need to care about, it is SPC, ele drain, combat prayer etc uptimes and keeping tank flush with synergies.

    If people are doing things right and not being stupid, if you add in Magblades and people who use vigor in trials (which I think shouldn't happen) your HPS might be = to 35-45% of group heals - but it's your buffs and debuffs uptimes and synergies that are super important as a healer.
    You know you don't have to be here right?
  • DMuehlhausen
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    Lol great reply, why?

    Because anything that helps people separate out people they don't feel are playing well enough is a bad idea. If the content is getting cleared who cares. If it's not, it's normally pretty obviously who isn't doing what needs to be done.
  • Juju_beans
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    Juju_beans wrote: »
    It's good if you use to to improve. It's bad if you use it against other players to exclude.
    And after a while people just look at the lowest numbered player to automatically "kick".

    I agree but that is already happening in Trials Groups, but they base this off of dummies instead and the players never get a chance to show their strengths. A person could be amazing with raid awareness and can outperform a dummy destroyer

    I agree as I can see this happening from the many posts in the other subforums.

    Sad too because it will be a constant uphill battle for newer players and the number of trial groups can stagnate/shrink to a finite number of "elite players" who can hit the numbers.
  • Mureel
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    Juju_beans wrote: »
    Vaoh wrote: »
    Juju_beans wrote: »
    lol at "fun stats". Yeah those stats will be used to compare players..exclude or include.

    Wow is a great example of how that works.

    Doesn’t wow have an enormous raiding community, while this game’s raiding community barely exists? Not sure what point you’re trying to make.

    Seeing those stats helps people strive to improve. Atm you can “feel” like you did good or bad yet have zero idea how you actually performed, making it nearly impossible for most raiders to improve themselves.

    Oh it's not just raids. Players are kicked in dungeons as well for low dps.

    I got kicked from a dungeon for "low dps". I was the healer and a few of my spells also did damage.
    It was the low damage showing up on the meters after a player died that got me kicked. (couldn't be helped..he ran way ahead out of LOS).
    Then they tried to invite me back when they realized I was the healer.

    You shouldn't really use stupid peoples' actions as any kind of example.

    Never worry yourself over idiots. They're the same ones who with their other crap player friend in group will stand on a tricksy boss and kick healer after healer or tank etc because they themselves are bad.

    I've legit had 'friends' ask me to come heal VICP after I've seen they're in there for like 2 hours and I am all sure I'll give it a try, but 3 wipes and I'm out. You see then the group dps and is less than one person dps.

    Just move on ❤️
    Edited by Mureel on April 20, 2018 4:54PM
    You know you don't have to be here right?
  • Vaoh
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    Juju_beans wrote: »
    Vaoh wrote: »
    Juju_beans wrote: »
    lol at "fun stats". Yeah those stats will be used to compare players..exclude or include.

    Wow is a great example of how that works.

    Doesn’t wow have an enormous raiding community, while this game’s raiding community barely exists? Not sure what point you’re trying to make.

    Seeing those stats helps people strive to improve. Atm you can “feel” like you did good or bad yet have zero idea how you actually performed, making it nearly impossible for most raiders to improve themselves.

    Oh it's not just raids. Players are kicked in dungeons as well for low dps.

    I got kicked from a dungeon for "low dps". I was the healer and a few of my spells also did damage.
    It was the low damage showing up on the meters after a player died that got me kicked. (couldn't be helped..he ran way ahead out of LOS).
    Then they tried to invite me back when they realized I was the healer.

    Sounds like you were in a group of toxic ppl. You’ll find groups like that in any MMO. Don’t base your opinion on a feature like this from one bad experience.
  • BeefyMrTips
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    Lol great reply, why?

    Because anything that helps people separate out people they don't feel are playing well enough is a bad idea. If the content is getting cleared who cares. If it's not, it's normally pretty obviously who isn't doing what needs to be done.

    Test dummies already do this.
    Mr. was my Father's name, just the tips is fine.
  • Merlin13KAGL
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    Juju_beans wrote: »
    Vaoh wrote: »
    Juju_beans wrote: »
    lol at "fun stats". Yeah those stats will be used to compare players..exclude or include.

    Wow is a great example of how that works.

    Doesn’t wow have an enormous raiding community, while this game’s raiding community barely exists? Not sure what point you’re trying to make.

    Seeing those stats helps people strive to improve. Atm you can “feel” like you did good or bad yet have zero idea how you actually performed, making it nearly impossible for most raiders to improve themselves.

    Oh it's not just raids. Players are kicked in dungeons as well for low dps.

    I got kicked from a dungeon for "low dps". I was the healer and a few of my spells also did damage.
    It was the low damage showing up on the meters after a player died that got me kicked. (couldn't be helped..he ran way ahead out of LOS).
    Then they tried to invite me back when they realized I was the healer.
    Did you reaccept the invite, then let them wipe at the next boss, complaining afterwards at their low healing numbers?

    Seem like it would've been fitting.

    (I once asked a CP200ish Sorc tank to taunt and/or CC the adds on a particular fight. He responded with bewilderment that I expected him to deal with "5 different things at once.")

    OP, most raid leads and experienced groups have a pretty good idea who's doing what, and there are more factors than just DPS. Things like rezzing, following instructions and mechanics , etc. Plus, it's group DPS that matters in the grand scheme of things, but even then, not as much as group synergy.

    Someone that can do 80k dps, but can't take instruction and can't mesh with the group isn't going to get a chance any more than someone only doing 8k dps.

    People can have those stats, complete with their own contribution for their own purposes. They can save and share those with raid leads after the raid/dungeon to get tips and advice on how to improve.

    Unless someone is just royally f'ing up, throwing it out there for the whole group to see doesn't necessarily prevent what you're trying to prevent. it tends to aggravate it.

    You also have to factor a couple other things:
    • Some content does have limitations that must be met. This could be ranged vs melee friendly, DPS/mechanics checks, etc. Inclusion for the sake of inclusion will never prevent these things from being present.
    • As @Juju_beans pointed out, sometimes people are just idiots. Shared data (which is already available via addons) won't fix either of these things.

    Just because you don't like the way something is doesn't necessarily make it wrong...

    Earn it.

    IRL'ing for a while for assorted reasons, in forum, and in game.
    I am neither warm, nor fuzzy...
    Probably has checkbox on Customer Service profile that say High Aggro, 99% immunity to BS
  • Juju_beans
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    Vaoh wrote: »
    Juju_beans wrote: »
    Vaoh wrote: »
    Juju_beans wrote: »
    lol at "fun stats". Yeah those stats will be used to compare players..exclude or include.

    Wow is a great example of how that works.

    Doesn’t wow have an enormous raiding community, while this game’s raiding community barely exists? Not sure what point you’re trying to make.

    Seeing those stats helps people strive to improve. Atm you can “feel” like you did good or bad yet have zero idea how you actually performed, making it nearly impossible for most raiders to improve themselves.

    Oh it's not just raids. Players are kicked in dungeons as well for low dps.

    I got kicked from a dungeon for "low dps". I was the healer and a few of my spells also did damage.
    It was the low damage showing up on the meters after a player died that got me kicked. (couldn't be helped..he ran way ahead out of LOS).
    Then they tried to invite me back when they realized I was the healer.

    Sounds like you were in a group of toxic ppl. You’ll find groups like that in any MMO. Don’t base your opinion on a feature like this from one bad experience.

    Oh I had quite a few "bad experiences" with group content in wow which is why I eventually left.
    Wasn't always like that though..just within the last 2 expansions of wow that this notion of "high dps or don't bother" mentality started to become prevalent along with fake tanks and fake healers to just speed race through content and burn down everything with sheer dps.
  • jlboozer
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    No, we don't need even more number elitists on console...we have enough already. Go play PC if you want that, don't ruin our experience.
  • Juju_beans
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    Mureel wrote: »
    CurlyQTip wrote: »
    playing as a healer, I want to be judged, because it drives me to further improve techniques and skill

    You *** about my healing and create a valid point and I'll become better and better

    I think it'd be cool if I could compare myself to other dungeon and trial healers, but I'm not sure if putting numbers and stats on people is a good idea.

    With healers - it's not Hps you need to care about, it is SPC, ele drain, combat prayer etc uptimes and keeping tank flush with synergies.

    If people are doing things right and not being stupid, if you add in Magblades and people who use vigor in trials (which I think shouldn't happen) your HPS might be = to 35-45% of group heals - but it's your buffs and debuffs uptimes and synergies that are super important as a healer.

    Not talking of trials here but I keep vigor on my NB. I don't use it with groups unless I see the healer struggling (new perhaps and still learning). Then I will use it to help out but I do speak up about it to the group.

    Every team is different and I try to do what I can do to help the team.
    On my templar..if the team is holding their own then I do more damage than heal.

    And when there are lower level and/or weaker players I just double up on trying to get the mobs down but I don't consider that I'm "carrying them" because they aren't performing at a high level.

    Edited by Juju_beans on April 20, 2018 5:03PM
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